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There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta. Are these guides written for gold league?
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
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The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta.
You have to do damage or equalize before the mutas are out. There are two ways to do this within the context of going thor/hellion - one is to hide an expansion, and the other is to do a blue flame timing that hits between 9-10 minutes.
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On June 10 2011 20:28 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting? What the heck is up with the aggression? If you don't like the build, so be it, but don't start bashing on other people for wanting to try something new. No one here is claiming this to be the best thing out there =S. I don't follow why NP erasing upgrades matters at all. I have 0 weapon upgrades so the Thors will always be doing minimal damage. When they shoot MY units, they encounter the 3 armor. Because I still have control over my own units, obviously I keep my armor upgrades and therefore mitigate the damage. 0/3 still works...I don't see why it has any downside at all. It's a bug and it needs to be fixed, so I will play with this in mind and not abuse anything.
I think you should edit the guide to remove the wrong information though... if you can squeeze it in, weapon upgrades should be gotten eventually - since the reason you stated for not getting them (NP'd thors doing more damage to your own thors) actually doesn't occur due to the bug.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta. Are these guides written for gold league?
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
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The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
With just thor hellion, your only hope is mass turrets, or else you have baller senses with the sensor towers + medics lifting thors around to get some lucky ass pot shots off.
AKA this is a late game unit composition.... not really a guide IMO. Going straight into it is just too passive for my blood. And synstyr himself said he isn't playing, and hasn't play at all since last season and was 3300 master. As he states, your best bet is to get on an advantage/ semi even ground with an econ damage only blue flame hellion timing attack, which does work. I just feel you forgo the map control, and stay on 2 base with a sloow sloooow army.
It's a good guide for anyone giving up on bio tanks in TvZ, which is just so sexy strong I don't know why you would forgo it.
And I don't think it's a bug. It's giving you YOUR upgrades for mech, as the zerg player, which you have none. I bet if you NP an scv multiple times and make up to an armory, and get +1 attack, and THEN NP a thor, you'll have +1
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On June 10 2011 20:25 Synystyr wrote:
Hmmm....it seems that Ghosts would have been perfect to deal with this threat. I'll have to work some Ghosts into this build and let you guys know about that. It's probably the absolute best way to take care of Infestors.
Looking forward to hearing what you find! I've been wanting to use ghosts in my TvZ ever since watching Qxc on 12 weeks with the pros, but the micro involved in mass marine v mass baneling gives me so much trouble.
Keep up the awesome guides! Syn fighting!
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On June 10 2011 07:00 NeonFox wrote:
This is a bad build, don't use it terrans!
At least I tried, god I hate ZvT when facing mech play. Would some sort of 3/3 baneling, zergling work? Without siege tanks the banelings can get up close and clear all the hellions, leaving space for the zerglings to take down the thor. Maybe using infestors to lock all that into place.
If hellions and bio are microed then the banelings can find themselves ramming into thors or else being killed before reaching their target. It's basically the same as pure mech or bio in that respect. In an amove battle z wins, in a micro battle t wins.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta. Are these guides written for gold league?
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
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The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
You can switch to marines easily, you have 2rax and a couple of reactors on factories for hellions. You are not immobile because it's biomech, not mech. If I scout mass muta, I'll laugh and make another rax and stop producing hellions.
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no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience.
looks like a good build though will definitely give it a try thanks
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On June 11 2011 04:40 eu.exodus wrote:
no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience.
looks like a good build though will definitely give it a try thanks
Uhm, it's your fault if don't scout to see if your opponent is making ultras... in that situation you should focus on marauders and thors, no hellions.
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I tried the strategy a few times. It is strong but it is auto-lose if you do not EMP his infestors in time. If he NP all your Thors you lose the game right there. No amount of trying to focus fire down his infestors help. So I would say that including Ghosts is not optional in the build, it is obligatory against any competent Zerg.
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MockHamill, do you have a replay showing the loss to NP. Its just the OP is suggesting NP isn't actually that effective when you have a 200 maxed 0:3 thor army.
Some of his demos show some NPing action but he seems to come out of it unscathed.
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On June 11 2011 05:25 rebotfc wrote:
MockHamill, do you have a replay showing the loss to NP. Its just the OP is suggesting NP isn't actually that effective when you have a 200 maxed 0:3 thor army.
Some of his demos show some NPing action but he seems to come out of it unscathed.
Honestly the armor does more to mitigate zerg unit attacks rather than thor damage, considering how much damage per shot thor attacks do. Also, as stated earlier, weapon upgrades don't affect NP'd units....
It really depends on how many infestors the zerg player has when you attack with the thor ball and positioning, etc. E.g. on Typhon Peaks NP can be extremely deadly since there is no space to maneuver the thors in the back to hit the infestors.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
Mass muta is the worst thing you could possibly do against this build. Even when perfectly magic boxed, you need 4 Mutas per every Thor in order to win fights, and that's not even counting any Marines nearby. That's basically 400 gas worth of mutas per every 200 gas worth of Thors. Once you add in the Marine mineral dump you probably need even more than this. Zerg cannot spend gas significantly faster than Terran until the very very late game because before 20 minutes or so, gas spending is still capped by how fast you are collecting it. Both players will be using all of their gas into Mutas and Thors. Zerg would be on 6 geysers at best at that point compared to 4 for the Terran. Unless you can find a way to make 3 Mutas beat a Thor (impossible) then it's a clear gas loss for the Zerg. Going for a sick Muta ball will just cut into your Infestor or Baneling count, at which point Terran can very safely mass Marines. You end up with a huge ball of Mutas/Lings vs Marines/Thors which is going to end very badly for the Zerg. All the Terran has to do is dump all his minerals into Turrets when he hits 200/200 to nullify counterattack threats and the Mutas become nothing more than cannon fodder.
The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily.
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On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:
On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily.
He said roach/bane, which is very tough to hold off without tanks. You might be ok if you opened CC first, but otherwise you will probably have your natural demolished.
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On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:
Even when perfectly magic boxed, you need 4 Mutas per every Thor in order to win fights, and that's not even counting any Marines nearby.
Assuming this is right, I'm not sure its spacially possible to fit 36 magic-boxed mutas over 9 clumped up Thors without having some of the mutas out of range. Am I wrong? A 6x6 magic box over a 3x3 clump of thors - seems like an awful lot of space for a unit with range 3...
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On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m. Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily.
He said roach/bane, which is very tough to hold off without tanks. You might be ok if you opened CC first, but otherwise you will probably have your natural demolished.
---Sorry meant to edit my original post because of formatting issues. Could a mod delete that?
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On June 11 2011 06:06 Exley wrote:On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily. He said roach/bane, which is very tough to hold off without tanks. You might be ok if you opened CC first, but otherwise you will probably have your natural demolished.
It's tough to hold without tanks if you have a Bio core because the Banelings are such a threat to a largely Bio-based army. If the Terran is making Marauders/Thors the Banes are not nearly as effective. Unless the Terran just clumps his Marauders and eats the Banes head on I seriously doubt you could break him. Each Thor can kill 4-4.5 Roaches on their own so once the Banes blow up you would still need enough Roaches leftover to kill all the Thors and remaining Marauders. That might sound like a wash but in most cases, washes favor the defender.
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On June 10 2011 04:38 SoftSoap wrote:
Your guides are so indepth and so useful. Thank you so much
haha this guys is gay
synstar i love you man! i want to dry hump your leg! cool guide! *licks computer monitor*
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Great in-indepth guide and really appreciate the graphics support!
However, I honestly wished that you didn't produce this guide as more Terrans will start to realize the disadvantage of siege splash and start to transition back into thor/hellion play. Along my path to high diamond league from gold, I've solely relied on the fact that most zergs expect a marine/tank push, and have benefited from surprising them with a thor/hellion-heavy army assisted by banshees/marines where needed.
In all, I hope the metagame doesn't change due to this guide and then I'll have to do a different build against Zerg 
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what you want to do is get 3/3 with double armory, 3 bases and youll be maxed the same time as zerg. and get thor/hellion/ghost, much more effective and I (1500 master terran) feel that it is quite unstoppable unless they get 3/3 ultras
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EPT
