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On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it.
true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits!
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On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits!
Problem is, it takes a really long time to get energy, so if it's lategame situation where you both have a huge income, and he keeps attacking, then you will be low on thors that have enough energy, especially with the 15 second buff for ultras.
i think it's still doable of course, especially if you can make some walls like PF/Barracks on the field to tank, but with the 15 second buff you will "need" tanks more than back then
The 15 second buff is sort of cool because now there is a little more reason to get tanks when you're going mech, which are usually better than thors, so it's like you get tank vs ultra, viking vs BL, ghost vs Infestor, though the main composition, thor hellion, still does decent vs any of the three
really great job blizzard ^-^
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On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings.
Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o
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how much of a difference does it make having a thor with 3 armor against other units? in numbers... u know.. like it takes x banelings to kill... it takes y hits from zerglings.. etc etc
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On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought....
it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself.
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On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits!
Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor.
On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o
I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up.
More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep.
On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself.
FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately....
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On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately....
About 250mm :
Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333.
So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage.
So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you.
In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory).
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On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory).
correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant...
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On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant...
You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations.
+0 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. (!!IMPORTANT!!)
+1 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades.
+2 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor.
+3 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time.
So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face.
One point I'd like to make however.
Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time.
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On September 27 2011 06:13 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant... You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations. +0 attack upgrade Thors will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. ( !!IMPORTANT!!) +1 attack upgrade Thors only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades. +2 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor. +3 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time. So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face. One point I'd like to make however. Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time.
i'm pretty sure 250mm cannon strike ignores armor upgrades, and without armor on the ultras, auto attack is more dps, but with ANY armor upgrades on the ultras 250mm does more dps as it IGNORES armor upgrades... this is what i've understood from many threads
and i've also been under the impression that +attack upgrades have 0 effect on the 250mm cannon strike
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On September 27 2011 06:24 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 06:13 Synystyr wrote:On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant... You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations. +0 attack upgrade Thors will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. ( !!IMPORTANT!!) +1 attack upgrade Thors only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades. +2 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor. +3 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time. So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face. One point I'd like to make however. Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time. i'm pretty sure 250mm cannon strike ignores armor upgrades, and without armor on the ultras, auto attack is more dps, but with ANY armor upgrades on the ultras 250mm does more dps as it IGNORES armor upgrades... this is what i've understood from many threads
That's what my table is supposed to show, I'll edit it for rewording and better clarity.
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With the nerf to neural parasite range, this build is super sweet now. Also, there isn't much a zerg can do against thor/hellion/ghost late game, it's just awesome.
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On September 27 2011 06:26 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 06:24 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:On September 27 2011 06:13 Synystyr wrote:On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant... You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations. +0 attack upgrade Thors will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. ( !!IMPORTANT!!) +1 attack upgrade Thors only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades. +2 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor. +3 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time. So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face. One point I'd like to make however. Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time. i'm pretty sure 250mm cannon strike ignores armor upgrades, and without armor on the ultras, auto attack is more dps, but with ANY armor upgrades on the ultras 250mm does more dps as it IGNORES armor upgrades... this is what i've understood from many threads That's what my table is supposed to show, I'll edit it for rewording and better clarity.
ahh re read it a couple times and understand now, not sure what i was thinking u meant when i read it the first time... but yea sorry about that, yea this is good information
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didn't know the part about 7+4 range, that's pretty cool :D
And yes I've been doing thor hellion ghost for FOREVER and it is FUCKING SEXY
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OP I play mech as well and this just isn't worth it in my opinion. If you are doing this JUST for the situation of thors being NPd then you might as well have 1 less thor, get ghosts, and settle for 2-2 and get 3-3 at 22-23 over 19-20.
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On September 28 2011 12:51 cydial wrote:
OP I play mech as well and this just isn't worth it in my opinion. If you are doing this JUST for the situation of thors being NPd then you might as well have 1 less thor, get ghosts, and settle for 2-2 and get 3-3 at 22-23 over 19-20.
It's not just for the NP situation. Armored mech can takes tons and tons more hits in fights especially with SCV repair. It just makes your army much more durable and units like mutas and lings only scratch yours. Ghosts are part of the build anyway, so I throw that in as soon as my economy allows it. If I can afford attack upgrades, I grab those as well so long as I'm prioritizing armor over it.
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On September 28 2011 13:06 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 12:51 cydial wrote:
OP I play mech as well and this just isn't worth it in my opinion. If you are doing this JUST for the situation of thors being NPd then you might as well have 1 less thor, get ghosts, and settle for 2-2 and get 3-3 at 22-23 over 19-20. It's not just for the NP situation. Armored mech can takes tons and tons more hits in fights especially with SCV repair. It just makes your army much more durable and units like mutas and lings only scratch yours. Ghosts are part of the build anyway, so I throw that in as soon as my economy allows it. If I can afford attack upgrades, I grab those as well so long as I'm prioritizing armor over it.
Also, Thors and Hellions really don't benefit that much from Attack upgrades. Only hellions would be effected. Since you're not getting tanks, the attack upgrades won't be of too much use in anything but a really long game. Hellions will be attacking zerglings most of the time anyways, not Roaches.
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Why the 2rax gasless FE? Wouldn't reactor hellion FE get an almost as fast expansion, faster gas, map control, and safety vs mass ling?
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On October 09 2011 14:47 Klyberess wrote:
Why the 2rax gasless FE? Wouldn't reactor hellion FE get an almost as fast expansion, faster gas, map control, and safety vs mass ling?
Even if it's the same FE timing, hellions obviously are not that good against zerg's early busts... behind a wall at your nat it is much better to have marines in bunkers rather than hellions that are already cornered for banelings to kill and can't kill roaches that well.
Also I think it's simply because 2 rax is strong and keeps the zerg from doing too greedy of an expansion, i don't think a reactor hellion FE will make hellions fast enough to punish zerg in the same way.
Though it all depends on the map I guess. Actually I think Reactor expand is faster; if so, then I guess you could call it a greedier build that gives map control but is slightly less safe... then again it depends on the map, map control can make you safer to put up bunkers etc.
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EPT
