EPT[G] Synystyr's TvZ 0/3 Hellion/Thor Build - Page 9
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micjmac
42 Posts
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ETisME
12399 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 21 2011 10:44 micjmac wrote: I tried your build and I just couldn't make it work out like you do. Maybe it works if you are Masters level, but I wouldn't recommend it at my level. The level of micro involved is insane, and even with solid micro, the drop can be shut down (which sets you behind significantly). I also felt like all of the tech (including cloak) just made my main way too fragile. I lost to quite a few counter attacks after the drop. Also, it seems that masters zergs give you the benefit of the doubt that you won't cheese them. As soon as a zerg scouts me turtling up early game, they become paranoid and prepare for banshee tech. Not to topic steal -- you don't turtle. You take map control almost all early game with marine hellion, poke --- pull back, and elevator. The banshee follow is just to keep the contained until you siege expand and churn out of 4 rax for a marine tank push. True though, the handling and scouting is very dynamic. You have to be on top of roach rushes, and any kind of other all in. And no, master zergs expect cheesy play, hence why they scout it so well. And preparing for banshee tech you should see with your drop. If so, cancel cloak, only get 1, and snipe creep tumors. With excess gas, (300 or so) get another tech lab fac for double tank production. You can't blame lack of game sense or scouting on a build. I've held literally every zerg 1 base or expo -> aggression style. | ||
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IzieBoy
United States865 Posts
it seems like a bunch of thors is equal to a bunch of battlecruisers as a transition...starting out with thors is easier to apply pressure though as the healing scvs get dealt less splash it's really hard to NP a bunch of battlecruisers and get them to yamato gun each other...plus i don't think Terran would be researching yamato of strike cannon vs zerg.... but then without yamato or strike cannons, zerg's ultralisks are very good i wish there's a way to have zerg units attack NPed units with the least micro...that way infestor/ultralisks can beat thor armies or infestor/corruptor vs battlecruisers | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 21 2011 04:36 inforsomechop wrote: Hi Synystyr - question Thanks for the good build man! Been practicing it against some people and it works well. Do you have a replay to deal with the 7RR. I got busted recently with this build and was wondering if you change anything to handle this. Pretty much get my 2 expansions up and fill 2.5 bunkers. My wall was def not correct since the roaches could walk past...which I can fix in future. Just wondering if that was the absolute cause for the loss or if the build needs a modification when scouting this. Hey, I don't sorry  However...7RR is a 1 base timing attack. You should easily be able to scout this with either a scan or an SCV after you see no expansion go up. The proper response to this is to throw up the bunkers before your first command center, leave a unit in the attacking path of the roaches and pull SCVs to repair the bunkers as soon as you scout the attack head over to your base. Many zergs will just try to run by your wall, so you want to make it tight enough that he can't in this scenario. Good luck! | ||
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Zavinout
Norway14 Posts
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
So we need to consider basically roach infestor and roach/infestor/hivetech Against Roach/infestor or roach infestor ultra I also don't see why you want to keep your hellions behind your thors. It seems like the hellions should be the meatshields for your thors as they are easy to replace in mass and thors do way more dps. The only situations where its the opposite is if you are facing banelings or broods and even against broods you probably only want to keep a few hellions behind the thors to help deal with the broodlings. Zerg who is making lings against BF is a dumb zerg. Ghosts are basically the solution to everything (in the same way they are the solution to HTs (aka if you micro well)). You can snipe down broods and you can snipe down infestors and you can even snipe down ultras and roaches if you have extra energy. You are definitely going to want quite a few ghosts. But its going to be a balancing act because they won't be as effective as thors against roaches so you don't want too many either. My issues are with the openings. I agree with people here that your openings are generally really risky, the PF at your 3rd one is possible but definitely difficult. I think I would prefer to just do a classic reactor hellion opening because if you open passively like this the zerg just has so much free reign to expand and spread creep. All you need really is about 4 hellions to force spines/lings/roach warren/roaches and also delay any creep spread. I do think you have the right idea with the armor upgrades because there is no crit point with the thors and in my version of this I would just be using pure thor/hellion/ghost. Armor is alwys better against mutas and its helpful against lings if they somehow kill your hellions. If they try for mass mutas, the addition of ghosts will rip them a new one. I think just armor upgraded thors can deal with mutas pretty well, although I'm not sure of the data, but armor is awesome against mutas for obvious reasons. I would also be in favour of banshees for dealing with the infestors, 4 banshees 1shot an infestor and this would force the zerg to expend some gas to deal with the air, however, with banshees if the broods get out your pretty screwed whereas ghosts have that covered and are better support against mutas/lings. | ||
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RealDeal
United States117 Posts
However and the reason i am writing this is all my losses seem to be when a zerg sees my double expo quickly and takes the HOLE map, i mean every base, creep on ever inch..Then i walk out with my 200/200 army and roll his...Then he can insta-rebuild and insta-tech switch, which is when i get rolled back and stomped on 3or4 base vs 7-8base.So i am wondering what to do when i know he is trying to take map, i was thinking of maybe adding in some heavy drop play around 120ish supply, what are your thoughts and suggestions on how to respond to this style. Just some food for thought, i have found that "the gretorp upgrades" of +1 range and building defense is extremely effective to shut down even the biggest muta ball, at first i was just massing turrets once fully saturated on 3, because thors are so immobile and i was afraid to split them all up along 3 bases.Even then mutas would harass me to no end,until i added turret range and defense,i mean they REALLY beef ur 100 mineral missle turrets! | ||
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Azzur
Australia6259 Posts
1. Brat_OK vs Morrow, (Dreamhack?), set2 on Metalopolis. 2. Happy vs Lucky, GSTL, foU vs IM. The games that I quoted does not follow the Synystyr build because they push out on 2-bases while Synystyr does it off 3-bases. The most important key is the armour upgrades. I remember the Brat_OK game, one of the commentators said that he had reached that all important +2 armour upgrade. Brat_OK was losing but his push did enough damage to score the win. Another key is to spread the thors out (avoid baneling splash) and effective micro of the helions. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
If your opponent is going pure mass roach (and reinforcing with like 30 at a time) would switching to tanks be a good idea? I mean, you're going to get 5 tanks out at a time from 5 facts, and marauders would only be out of 2rax, which takes forever. I mean, you're going to be on 3 bases, you're going to be able to afford the tank tech switch aren't you? | ||
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micjmac
42 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote: It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP  Still waiting...  | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On June 26 2011 15:49 Azzur wrote: Anyways, I noticed a few haters in this thread. A thor/helion composition has been shown to be successful in the pro-levels of play. There are 2 games that I can think of at the top of my head: 1. Brat_OK vs Morrow, (Dreamhack?), set2 on Metalopolis. 2. Happy vs Lucky, GSTL, foU vs IM. The games that I quoted does not follow the Synystyr build because they push out on 2-bases while Synystyr does it off 3-bases. The most important key is the armour upgrades. I remember the Brat_OK game, one of the commentators said that he had reached that all important +2 armour upgrade. Brat_OK was losing but his push did enough damage to score the win. Another key is to spread the thors out (avoid baneling splash) and effective micro of the helions. The Brat_OK vs Morrow was actually set 3. http://blip.tv/day9tv/brat_ok-t-vs-morrow-z-g3-dreamhack-summer-group-b-5289989 But yeah in both games the Zergs were able to hold until the +2 Armor upgrade finished and then they got smashed. | ||
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jlai
Hong Kong63 Posts
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:09 rebotfc wrote: how are folks dealing with roaches with this build, I'm finding after 15 minutes they are upgraded enough to tear thors apart? I've been doing a variation with two rax with tech labs and getting marauders from those. If the opponent is going roaches, you don't need the hellions using excess minerals, so its better some of it goes to marauders. And then you can easily switch to ghosts at the mid-late game. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 23 2011 23:43 Zavinout wrote: Could you do this on scrap station too? Take the island as your third? or the blocked of expansion in the south? I would try an expo to the south, but yeah its definitely viable on Scrap Station. I just hate that map so I have it thumbsed down xD On June 27 2011 11:58 deathtrance wrote: Thanks for the build Synystr - but one question If your opponent is going pure mass roach (and reinforcing with like 30 at a time) would switching to tanks be a good idea? I mean, you're going to get 5 tanks out at a time from 5 facts, and marauders would only be out of 2rax, which takes forever. I mean, you're going to be on 3 bases, you're going to be able to afford the tank tech switch aren't you? I suppose you could, but I avoid tanks simply because I prefer Thor/Marauder against Roaches. I haven't actually tried this though so I couldn't tell you...I don't see why not though. Agh sorry I've been tied up for a bit >_> Will be up by this weekend, promise! On June 28 2011 13:56 jlai wrote: Thanks Synystyr I have great success on using this build in map that i can wall off the choke easily. Do you have a replay on countering Ultralisk, lings,blings? i lost a few games when they managed to get out ultralisk. How should i micro my army against this? Ultras need to be sniped and focused by Thors ASAP. They're a high priority target since they rip Thors up quite well. If you can get your Hellions in front of your Thors at that point, then you should be able to take care of them quite easily. Against Bling/Ling, you need to micro your hellions so that they do not die to the initial baneling wave and then reposition them behind your Thors so they can attack the lings freely. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
Against Bling/Ling, you need to micro your hellions so that they do not die to the initial baneling wave and then reposition them behind your Thors so they can attack the lings freely. And if they come from more than one angle, and have slings infront of them blocking your 3.5 range? Or even come from multiple angles with sling bling at all sides? With little to no tanks you cannot target fire into baneling balls... | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
On June 29 2011 09:26 iAmJeffReY wrote: And if they come from more than one angle, and have slings infront of them blocking your 3.5 range? Or even come from multiple angles with sling bling at all sides? With little to no tanks you cannot target fire into baneling balls... i think that if ur thors arent too much clumped up they should hold banes easily, trick is to not lose ur hellions and get surrounded by lings | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On June 21 2011 05:17 iAmJeffReY wrote: Solve that excuse with getting and running sc2gears. Odd you don't have many replays of it. I don't play much at all. 150 games or so on NA, 100 on EU and somehow I can still get you 10-15 TvZ reps of strats that I run. Just get into sc2gears. You can make the reps named PlayerXvPlayerY-XvX-Mapname-date If you already have it, then autoloss me. And for an open natural build? I'd reccomend a marine hellion elevator, to be honest. I know I always push it, but you don't invest in infantry. Get a starport + medic for drop / future drops. Does good econ damage with marines sniping queen, BF on slings and drones. From there, you can easily 2-3 fac siege expo safely if you follow up the elevator with just a little viking or banshee harass to keep them further busy. You recommend marine/hellion elevator for everything bro :p On June 24 2011 02:34 statikg wrote: I would also be in favour of banshees for dealing with the infestors, 4 banshees 1shot an infestor and this would force the zerg to expend some gas to deal with the air, however, with banshees if the broods get out your pretty screwed whereas ghosts have that covered and are better support against mutas/lings. I think I've said that banshees countered infestors when there are few infestors before but Pokebunny said it was extremely micro-intensive to go banshee wolf-pack on infestors in my old Marine/Raven thread. However, I think just popping one banshee out every so often and harassing with them to force spores and overseers would be good. If there are many infestors then you can force fungals and Infested Terrans and basically dead-weight an infestor for the price of a banshee. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On June 29 2011 09:26 iAmJeffReY wrote: And if they come from more than one angle, and have slings infront of them blocking your 3.5 range? Or even come from multiple angles with sling bling at all sides? With little to no tanks you cannot target fire into baneling balls... How often do you have your hellions surrounded by speedlings (which are only barely faster than hellions) and banelings (which are slower than hellions) in a way which you are still able to tell yourself that you played well? Isn't it pretty easy to use hellions speed to mess with flank opportunities? I mean maybe there's nothing you can do - I'm not sure, I don't have the APM to master the tactics of it all myself. But it seems to me that in most engagements if you have lots of really fast units, you shouldn't find yourself surrounded. | ||
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NDsOdapOp
United Kingdom60 Posts
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