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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
 Its Really effective, as a Zerg I have a tendency to throw away units into big balls hoping the best. You can also use your rax to scout, but it kinda gives away the whole secrecy to the build, unless you were already scouted. And make sure to keep your 2 rax units alive as long as possible. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
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JiSu
Korea (South)140 Posts
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EnsisRaizo
25 Posts
Second: while i think there are definite ways to beat this build, I believe it is very strong and requires way more work out of a zerg player for him to break it. Third: I'm in plat so my word isn't worth much, but don't rag on Synystyr he is really helpful and trying to improve the community. Thanks mate. | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On June 16 2011 08:48 Scila wrote: I'm starting to fall in love with this build...you max out really fast, and if Zerg stays on ling/bling/muta you should always win with good micro. That plus while you sit there and macro you can use hellions to kill a crapton of drones and lings. This is a bit of an underappreciated fact about this build. I noticed in all of his replays that he basically stays even with the Zerg in food count and even occasionally pulls ahead. This lasts all the way up until maxed. Under the more standard Marine/Tank/Medi play the Terran often finds himself 20-30 food behind during the mid-game. With this build, you basically go neck and neck with Zerg production so your 200 food push occurs when most Zergs will only expect you to have ~170 or so food. | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
On June 16 2011 02:27 Synystyr wrote: I'm not gonna argue too much because you do have a lot of valid points but also a bunch that I have addressed in previous posts. For the most part, I feel confident enough in my macro, game sense and army composition to deal with any assortment of units, even those that are meant to "hard counter" what I have. It's not as simple as X beats Y in this case. My confidence lies in Ghosts, armored mech units and auto-repair. It makes for a deathball similar to Protoss, where it takes more than one wave of units to overcome and you can't just directly hard counter it as you like to. I believe you are sidestepping the discussion. Naturally if you feel you're skilled enough to adapt to any opposing composition with strong macro you're in a good position. And pure mech is a valid tactic against Zerg. But that doesn't mean it does not have specific weaknessess which should be adressed if the goal of your original post is to provide everyone with a valid original TvZ build. Simply stating that you feel comfortable beating Zerg with this composition because your own skills are superior is not a valid argument in discussing the merits of this strategy. P.S. what do you mean with "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to"? | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On June 16 2011 16:03 Kraelog wrote: I believe you are sidestepping the discussion. Naturally if you feel you're skilled enough to adapt to any opposing composition with strong macro you're in a good position. And pure mech is a valid tactic against Zerg. But that doesn't mean it does not have specific weaknessess which should be adressed if the goal of your original post is to provide everyone with a valid original TvZ build. Simply stating that you feel comfortable beating Zerg with this composition because your own skills are superior is not a valid argument in discussing the merits of this strategy. P.S. what do you mean with "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to"? I read "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to" as "there is no clear zerg response which is strictly better than this." I.e. when terran sees roaches, they think "I could probably use some marauders here" - as zerg, there isn't a clear reaction like this that he knows of to seeing ghost/mech the way he's playing it. The extent of everyone's testing is limited. He hasn't run into an opponent who beat him in a way that made him say "the only way I could beat that is by not having chosen to go ghosts/mech". What do you expect him to say? Would you like him to theorycraft a zerg composition or tactic that would make him cry? He's not sidestepping anything, he's saying he isn't aware of any glaring weaknesses. That doesn't mean that there aren't any, but that's all he can really say. Also, if you watch his replays, he's clearly a solid player - but he's also clearly not in the same category as someone like MMA, MK or MVP. It could be the case that his strategy is amazing, but sometimes he loses just because he's not in the same ballpark as some of the pros. PS - I mean no offense here, just saying that sometimes when people are wondering "what beats this", sometimes it feels like the answer is "someone who plays better than I did". | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
On June 16 2011 02:27 Synystyr wrote: With the new light shone on the fact that NPed units lose their upgrades, I see no reason not to get upgrades but I don't think it's worth a double Armory for it, since +2 is the breaking point and would take so long to reach even with a second Armory that I would prefer an extra Ghost or something. I'm honestly just very lazy with my Hellions (not the best multitask in the world xD). There's no reason not to use them to contest map control. I just worry about Mutas or Roaches catching them off guard. I've definitely gone up against Kyrix-style baneling busts and held them off easily, the wallin is much sturdier than it looks. Unfortunately those replays were from a while ago, so I'll upload more recent ones as the situations arise. Actually there are more breakpoints than the +2 against mutas, if you calculate, how many attacks a hellion needs to finish of a roach that has been hit by a thor twice: +0: 4/5/7/9 +1: 2/3/4/5 +2: 1/1/2/2 +3: 0/0/0/1 | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:09 rebotfc wrote: how are folks dealing with roaches with this build, I'm finding after 15 minutes they are upgraded enough to tear thors apart? How's your snipe micro? Because believe it or not, that really plays a larger role in the initial engagement than you would believe. If you're not sniping like that way it is mentioned in this thread, then you are executing the attack subpar. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155732 Along with auto-repair, you should be okay. Don't be stingy on the amount of SCVs you bring. On June 16 2011 23:02 Treehead wrote: I read "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to" as "there is no clear zerg response which is strictly better than this." I.e. when terran sees roaches, they think "I could probably use some marauders here" - as zerg, there isn't a clear reaction like this that he knows of to seeing ghost/mech the way he's playing it. The extent of everyone's testing is limited. He hasn't run into an opponent who beat him in a way that made him say "the only way I could beat that is by not having chosen to go ghosts/mech". What do you expect him to say? Would you like him to theorycraft a zerg composition or tactic that would make him cry? He's not sidestepping anything, he's saying he isn't aware of any glaring weaknesses. That doesn't mean that there aren't any, but that's all he can really say. Also, if you watch his replays, he's clearly a solid player - but he's also clearly not in the same category as someone like MMA, MK or MVP. It could be the case that his strategy is amazing, but sometimes he loses just because he's not in the same ballpark as some of the pros. PS - I mean no offense here, just saying that sometimes when people are wondering "what beats this", sometimes it feels like the answer is "someone who plays better than I did". I absolutely could not have answered the question better myself. This pretty much sums up how I feel about this matchup, the build I use and my shortcomings with it. Nicely done! On June 17 2011 01:21 Thrombozyt wrote: Actually there are more breakpoints than the +2 against mutas, if you calculate, how many attacks a hellion needs to finish of a roach that has been hit by a thor twice: +0: 4/5/7/9 +1: 2/3/4/5 +2: 1/1/2/2 +3: 0/0/0/1 Yes, common mistake is that people only regard breaking points for upgrades when it is a "1v1" unit style fight. There are a total of 5-6 different units in my push (Marine, Ghost, Thor, Hellion, SCV and possibly Marauder) and they all deal and take different amounts of damage. In the grand scheme of things, attack upgrades increase DPS globally through all the affected units. This does leave a little more room for overkill to happen, but with SC2 AI, this happens less often than one would believe. | ||
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OmegaKnetus
Germany431 Posts
I feel like this build lets you be on par with the zerg macro and you max out really fast. If they don't find your expo until later, you'll have a pretty good econ with all those mules. Would you be so kind and watch those two replays? I think my timings are a bit off, so any advice is apreciated. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6063 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6064 Thank you | ||
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Ghyslyn
Canada130 Posts
You say to build it in-base, then float it over? The damn thing takes like 3 minutes to get there and is scouted by anything and everything. How do you honestly justify the blue position being better than the red position for close air? | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
On June 19 2011 06:27 Ghyslyn wrote: Hey, I'm bloody confused as to how you get your third on Shakuras to the blue position. You say to build it in-base, then float it over? The damn thing takes like 3 minutes to get there and is scouted by anything and everything. How do you honestly justify the blue position being better than the red position for close air? He builds it in the bottom main and floats it from there. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 19 2011 10:07 Scila wrote: Basically every Zerg that stays on Muta/ling/bling too long (like they all used to) automatically dies to this build, any smart Zerg immediately goes infestor/x and hard counters you. I've tried adding ghosts but it didn't matter at that point because they had like 10 ultras out. Neural Parasite is the biggest problem, they just NP all your thors behind their line of ultra or roach, and you can't do jack shit about it. The problem is not many zergs stay on muta sling bling. They know it has a shelf life unless they completely commit to mutas, with upgrades. The problem ensues for them when terran go thor heavy. Most go marine tank medic with 1-3 thors, just for skirting protection. Upon scouting more than that, the logical response is roaches, infestors, and broods if he's on tanks with the thors. A lot of people don't think reaction is a thing that makes a zerg better, and that macro is where it's at. Being able to read and react to the terrans army composition with those 450 mph accel mutas is where it's at -- it's where and when you learn you have to knock the thor count down, and swap to roach infestor. NP + roach DPS rolls over thors whole heartedly. And to everyone talking about maxing out being a positive thing. Why is max out speed so important to you, if you have all slow beefy mech units? You don't have the ability to control the zerg, or the map with just hellions. With mid-late game creep spread (the time you'd push) they could feesibly have half the map, mineral and creep wise. The reason marine tank is so solid as a basis is because of the mobility of marines, and the sheer force and panic tanks cause for zergs. As you slow push with marine tank, you use other groups to be mobile map controllers. Pick off OLs, snipe expos, drop in main to harass and cause just disarray with unit placement. Drops don't always have to do epic damage to be effective. | ||
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policymaker
Greece152 Posts
On June 19 2011 10:07 Scila wrote: Basically every Zerg that stays on Muta/ling/bling too long (like they all used to) automatically dies to this build, any smart Zerg immediately goes infestor/x and hard counters you. I've tried adding ghosts but it didn't matter at that point because they had like 10 ultras out. Neural Parasite is the biggest problem, they just NP all your thors behind their line of ultra or roach, and you can't do jack shit about it. actually ghost snipe takes care of infestors, its the mass roach im more afraid of, cause even if u have a lot of ghosts u have to land every single snipe to try counter the roaches. | ||
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micjmac
42 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote: Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build. It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP | ||
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IronWolf
South Africa315 Posts
Thanks for the good build man! Been practicing it against some people and it works well. Do you have a replay to deal with the 7RR. I got busted recently with this build and was wondering if you change anything to handle this. Pretty much get my 2 expansions up and fill 2.5 bunkers. My wall was def not correct since the roaches could walk past...which I can fix in future. Just wondering if that was the absolute cause for the loss or if the build needs a modification when scouting this. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote: It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP Solve that excuse with getting and running sc2gears. Odd you don't have many replays of it. I don't play much at all. 150 games or so on NA, 100 on EU and somehow I can still get you 10-15 TvZ reps of strats that I run. Just get into sc2gears. You can make the reps named PlayerXvPlayerY-XvX-Mapname-date If you already have it, then autoloss me. And for an open natural build? I'd reccomend a marine hellion elevator, to be honest. I know I always push it, but you don't invest in infantry. Get a starport + medic for drop / future drops. Does good econ damage with marines sniping queen, BF on slings and drones. From there, you can easily 2-3 fac siege expo safely if you follow up the elevator with just a little viking or banshee harass to keep them further busy. | ||
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