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Hey TL, another Synystyr build coming at you...hope it gets as well received as my 4 Port Banshee build did. This one was due to popular demand. It should be fairly easy to follow along as I'll be using the same format as my previous build. Lets do it!
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IG4Hr.jpg)
About Me:
+ Show Spoiler +Finished Season 1 as a 3300 pt Masters Terran and haven't played too much Season 2 due to work. I am currently picking the game back up as I was recently inspired by MLG Columbus to play again. This build is my go-to build in TvZ
Build Order Background:
+ Show Spoiler +The goal of this build is to quickly establish a phenomenal economy off of a 2 Barracks single or double expand. Because of the nature of double expanding, this opener is only viable on certain maps. After successfully securing a powerful economy, we aim to get a 200/200 army comprised of 0/3 Thors, Blue flame hellions and Marine or Marauder with their respective Tech Lab upgrades depending on whether Zerg went Roach/Infestor or Muta/Ling/Bane.
Why get 0/3 upgrades?
One of the best counters to Thors are Infestors with Neural Parasite. Without control of the main portion of your army, you die incredibly quickly. With 0/3 upgrades, when your Thors get NPed, they both take and do less damage. This is absolutely critical as it reduces the amount of friendly fire dealt immensely while also making your Thors super tanky against the Zerg army. With repairing SCVs, your Thors become almost unstoppable, even if NPed. Attack upgrades on mech make very little difference and only hurt yourself more with this build.
This army composition in my eyes is superior to Marine/Tank/Medivac in any standing fight. Instead of having Tanks destroy speedlings and banelings, you focus on blue flame hellions to roast them. Thors are the main damage dealing unit that cover both AA and dealing with armored Zerg units along with tanking massive amounts of damage. Marines or Marauders are used as a support unit to deal help deal with either Muta or Roach.
This is a very turtle-style build, so if that is not your style, then this may not be the build for you. Because of its map dependency, you will find results to be much different if you were to double expand vs a single expand. Let's get down to the build order and analysis.
Build Order 1: Double OC Expand
+ Show Spoiler +This opener is only viable on the following ladder maps: Shattered Temple, Shakuras Plateau, Tal'Darim Altar and Typhon Peaks.
10 Depot
12 Barracks
14 Barracks
15 Orbital Command
16 Supply Depot
23 Command Center (in base)
27 Command Center (at Natural)
27 Supply Depot
Move barracks to create wall-in (more detail in Analysis)
30 Bunker x3 at Natural
Supply counts are no longer consistent, follow general layout
CC1 finishes, load SCVs and float to third(more detail in Analysis) -> OC when landed
Double Gas at Main
CC2 finishes, maynard 4-5 SCVs and build OC
Factory at 100 Gas -> Tech Lab
Double Gas at Natural
Armory upon Factory Completion
Blue Flame and Hellion upon Tech Lab completion
Thor and +1 Vehicle Armor upon Armory completion
Double Gas at Third
Add additional Factories until you have 5 -> All build Tech Labs
Continue Vehicle Armor research to level 3, build Marine or Marauder to deal with Muta or Roach, max 200/200 and push with army and 10-15 SCVs and take 4th base.
Analysis of Build Order 1:
+ Show Spoiler +We open with a 2 Barracks Double Expand. The 2 barracks allows lots of marines to defend early pressure and forces early lings from your opponent. Applying pressure is optional. You expand once at 23 supply and again at 27 supply. Your first CC will be build in-base in the direction closest to your nearest third and the second CC will be at your natural. Here are the locations you would expand to on each ladder map. + Show Spoiler +Legend: Green: Where you spawn Blue: 3rd base Red: Alternate 3rd base if Zerg spawns at Yellow Yellow: Where you don't want Zerg to spawn ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/XrRO8.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/5JHpB.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/jn2UV.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/q5GTp.jpg) As you can see, you want to take a third that isn't in the general line of scouting for the third. If your opponent spawns in a position that would easily scout your third, you can change locations. In those situations though, you may not be able to load 5 SCVs for quick saturation, but instead only have 1 SCV at your third to start. The only exception to this rule is on Shattered Temple, where you may take an aggressive Planetary Fortress expand (see later). Once you've established your expansions, you want to do a 3 Bunker wall-off and move your barracks accordingly to defend against early Bane/Ling aggression. Here are pictures for examples to what your wall off should resemble. + Show Spoiler +These wallins are super robust and should hold against even the strongest of baneling busts once you get your Hellions out. The next step is to begin teching. You want to grab both gasses at your main and quickly saturate them so that you can begin your Factory asap. Once the factory is done, go straight for a tech lab for Blue Flame and an Armory for armor upgrades and Thor tech. Add double gasses to your natural and third as you start to need more. Add 4 more factories for a total of 5 and build tech labs on all of them. With 5 Factory production, you will always be able to spend your money well. Thors will soak your gas and minerals and anything spare will be able to go into hellions. Perfect off of 3 bases. Next you need to find out what the Zerg is doing. With 3 Orbitals, a scan is practically free. Scan the main first and if you do not glean any information, scan the nat. Checking both places should allow you to figure the tech tree out. Place addons to your 2 barracks and add marines or marauders with their respective upgrades accordingly. Your goal is to defend until you are 200/200 and 0/3 armor is finished. Push out at this point and take your 4th base.
Build Order 2: Single OC Expand
+ Show Spoiler +This build order is for maps that are a little harder to double expand on. Not as powerful, but is a viable build on these maps.
10 Depot
12 Barracks
14 Barracks
15 Orbital
16 Depot
26 CC at Natural
27 Supply Depot
27 Refinery x2
30 Bunker x3 at Natural
Move barracks to wall off (see Build Order 1 Analysis)
Supply counts are no longer consistent, follow general layout
OC at Natural, maynard 6-7 workers over
Factory at 100 Gas -> Tech Lab -> Blue Flame
Armory upon Factory completion
Double Gas at Natural
Add 2 Factories, one with Reactor and one with Tech Lab
Research Armor and start Thor production upon Armory completion
Choose a transition (see Analysis)
Analysis of Build Order 2:
+ Show Spoiler +As you can see, this build order is extremely similar to the first. Because you can't double expand, your gas intake is lower and you can only afford production off of 3 factories. Double tech lab factories + one reactored factory allows for easy money allocation. With this build, you have two options once the three factories are complete:
2 Base All-in
Take a Third Base
2 Base All-in:
Similar to Build Order 1, you max out with 0/3 upgrades and push. You need to do absolutely critical damage to the Zerg because your army is not replaceable. Bring more SCVs than you normally would to help sustain your army. Reinforce with Hellions only.
Take a Third Base:
Once you get a few Thors, you can safely take a third if you so choose to. Beware of the mobility of Mutalisks though because Thors are slow and are your source of anti-air. An engineering bay at this time is not a bad idea. Turtle up to 200/200 and push at 0/3.
Build Order 3: Aggressive Planetary Fortress Double Expand
+ Show Spoiler +I would only recommend this build on Shattered Temple close spawns
10 Depot
12 Barracks
14 Barracks
15 Orbital
16 Depot
23 CC
27 CC
27 Depot
30 Bunker x3 at Natural
Move Barracks to create wall-in
Supply counts are no longer consistent, follow general layout
Double Gas + Engineering Bay at Main
OC at Natural, PF at 3rd.
Start Factory at 100 Gas -> Tech Lab -> Blue Flame
2 Turrets at 3rd, break rocks immediately with marines
Double Gas at Natural and Third as you need more.
Armory upon Factory Completion
Thor and +1 Vehicle Armor upon Armory completion
Add additional Factories until you have 5 -> All build Tech Labs
Continue Vehicle Armor research to level 3, build Marine or Marauder to deal with Muta or Roach, max 200/200 and push with army and 10-15 SCVs and take 4th base.
Analysis of Build Order 3:
+ Show Spoiler +I only use this build on close spawns on Shattered Temple. This is because you can safely place a third there, even though it will be scouted. The rocks in between the bases allow you to get a PF up before Zerg can break those rocks down. With this in place, you have an incredible rally position to launch attacks from as well as a super robust wall guarding your natural. Missile turrets allow you to defend against Mutalisk harass at that base as well. The benefits of establishing a PF here are gamebreaking and pretty much guarantee a win. (Close spawns imbalanced >_>)
Same as before, push out at 0/3 upgrades and 200/200.
How to Engage:
+ Show Spoiler +You want to immediately push the natural of your opponent as soon as you are ready. The reasoning behind this is because you need to do incredible damage and taking the natural and pushing the main is the best way to do that.
Thors are at the front of the army with your hellions and bio layered behind them using a follow command. This allows streams of Zerglings to get roasted without being able to touch the hellions or do any damage. Marines stop magic box Mutas easily and marauders + Thors crush roaches.
You MUST micro your hellions. They are extremely important for killing off lings quickly and can die to banelings or reinforcements if you aren't careful. Do your best to keep your hellions behind your Thors and out of harm.
Reinforce with units according to what you lose. You want to keep a critical mass of Thors but also have enough hellions to quickly roast Zergling reinforcements. If your opponent went Roachs, add more barracks and keep marauders flowing in. If you need to send more SCVs, feel free to do so and also spend extra OC energy on MULEs to repair as well.
Dealing with Zerg Tier 3:
+ Show Spoiler +Brood LordsAt a glance, one would assume that Brood Lords would roll over this entire composition because Thor AA simply isn't sufficient. However, that is not the case. Thanks to Griffith, we have this method detailed in this link to help us fight this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205159UltralisksUltralisk vs Thor is a very close matchup where the Ultra wins by the smallest of margins. However, with auto repair and Marauder support, you shouldn't have to worry about them. Your Thor number will most likely be larger as well. Because of our unit composition, we will never have to worry about dealing with the BL/Ultra tech switch that punishes Viking production so hard.
What do I do if my fast third gets shut down?
+ Show Spoiler +Luck plays a part in having a double expand work. Your real factor in this is time. You shouldn't expect your third to stay alive forever, so you are trying to get as much out of it as you possibly can. At the very least, you should be able to make up your initial investment of a command center and save it by lifting off.
Regardless of what happens to your third, you should still maintain the same course of action. Just cut down your factory production a little bit to match your 2 base income instead of 3. Remember that you have already gained a lot of benefit for having a third for any substantial amount of time and retake it when you see fit. Losing it does not put you as behind as you would imagine.
Transitions:
+ Show Spoiler +There isn't very much flexibility in this build unfortunately. Your tech tree is dedicated deeply into Mech and very little into bio. Starport tech is nonexistent. A possible Marauder tech switch is possible to counter mass Roachs, but that is as flexible as you can really get.
Counters:
+ Show Spoiler +The only real counter I can really consider for this build is Roach/Infestor. Roaches do the best at tanking and dealing damage for its cost against this army and nullifies the Hellion portion of the build well. Infestors with Fungals and NP can also turn the tide in Zerg's favor as well, which is why we cushion this by going 0/3 upgrades.
Our means of dealing with this is keeping up Thor and Marauder production with a heavier concentration on Marauders. Instead of pushing the main, aim for crippling Zerg's economy by denying and sniping other expansions.
Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
And there you have it! Hope you guys enjoy the build  As always, please leave any questions or feedback you have so I can help improve upon this! Feel free to shoot me a PM any time as well or contact me in-game at Synystyr.193. Please check out my TvP build as well!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190
Cheers TL!
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Just a note, you might want to make a quick edit into 3/0 instead of 0/3, as read from left to right, armor upgrades come before weapon upgrades.
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Top quality stuff as always, since your post earlier today have been trying this out and seems to work quite well on Shakuras:
I take the expansion behind the rocks with the third CC, this stays hidden even if zerg have both xel nagas, after 2 rax bunker pressure my opponent seems to think iv'e only expanded once to the nat.
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On June 10 2011 03:27 isospeedrix wrote:
Just a note, you might want to make a quick edit into 3/0 instead of 0/3, as read from left to right, armor upgrades come before weapon upgrades.
I believe you're incorrect about that actually....standard notation on this website at least that it's Weapons/Armor. If it isn't, I'll ask a mod to change it though ^^
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On June 10 2011 03:35 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 03:27 isospeedrix wrote:
Just a note, you might want to make a quick edit into 3/0 instead of 0/3, as read from left to right, armor upgrades come before weapon upgrades. I believe you're incorrect about that actually....standard notation on this website at least that it's Weapons/Armor. If it isn't, I'll ask a mod to change it though ^^
No you're correct when I read 0/3 I instantly assume 3 Armor
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Ahhh Synystyr, another great build, played 2 custom maps TvZ on Shattered. The build worked EXTREMELY well, he even scouted me floating my 3rd and my natural, he tried to counter but my 3rd had destructible rocks protecting and my natural had a barracks, 3 bunker wall that was untouchable.I was thinking of adding in a starport once 0/1 is started and 5 fact. are down to do some BLH drop harass. Was wondering if you thought it was worth it, or am i better off turteling and waiting for my max army/upgrade army and move out?
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Synystyr what are you thoughts on adding a certain amount of Tanks into the composition as a general heavy damage dealer and protection against NP? This would allow to us go heavily mech centered with two Armorys. Thor count would suffer, but we are better prepared against NP and Tanks are great against all kinds of Zerg ground.
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On June 10 2011 03:27 isospeedrix wrote:
Just a note, you might want to make a quick edit into 3/0 instead of 0/3, as read from left to right, armor upgrades come before weapon upgrades.
In the game its armor, then weapons, but on the internet its weapons, then armor.
It sounds kinda neat, but I like the satisfaction of a a nice, slow, tank push climaxed with a huge zerg swarm where we both hold our breath...
Also, you might have better luck against roach infestor with Tanks, but marauders would be easier to use what with the sieging and the unsieging and the OMG IM DEAD moments that tanks entail.
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Your guides are so indepth and so useful. Thank you so much
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Very well done post, like the build and have used a build similar to the 3 oc variant on ladder for a couple months now and it has been working out well for me. However I can't help but question shrugging off double upgrades and the addition of ghosts to deal with infestors and roaches. It's clearly the natural reaction to seeing mass thor/hellion and I feel that without infestors, this comp just stomps all over anything else the zerg can throw at you. It seems like a 200/200 allin more than a solid reactive mech play that you can take into late, late game with the addition of ghosts or tanks.
And as much as a bio addition is nice to deal with ultras/mutas you will have no gas for upgrades which is I'm sure why you've stated that there is really very little room to transition.
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Thanks for the mech guide
Will read it!
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i like the priority on armor upgrades, reminds me of thorzain's +2 armor thors against MC on crossfire. - what are your thoughts about the previous mention on siege tanks in the composition by hitting the factory tech earlier in the BO?
e.g. one base for longer, deny their scout, and apply/rush early hellion (maybe even BFH?) pressure before roaches come out - get siege tech while harrassing. that more easily counters the roaches you'll expect, and if you stop production at 2-3 siege tanks to secure your expo then you won't have to invest into bunkers. plus you'll have the siege tech/tanks to anchor your ground army. if you do enough economic damage you could definitely get a thor out before the mutas to come out as well. the key is doing enough harrass/damage with the hellions - especially if you deny the scout and they decide to drone up behind speedling/baneling. plus siege pushes aren't nearly as dangerous with hellions because of their scouting ability.
i think a huge thing to think about when using mech is that during early/midgame stages you don't have to handle your production the same as you would with bio (e.g. pump units out until your A and D keys break). especially with hellions and siege you can, with proper micro and repair, temporarily halt unit production and perform minor tech switches that aren't nearly as costly because of high unit retention ability with mech style. for example, once you hit a critical number of siege tanks in a mech army (~5-6) it's not absolutely critical to make any more.
also i'd suggest getting the 250mm cannon against ultras in late game - it's definitely worth the investment. i don't think splash from ultras really affects thors that much, and as long as you don't get surrounded, you can deal some serious damage. i've had a 12 thor v 11 ultra engagement (equal upgrades) in super late game on shakuras and i lost 2 thors, my opponent lost all of his/her ultras.
plat-terran. NA
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Great post! But does 3 armor really protect you against NP? A Thor would do 54 instead of 60 damage to another Thor, it would still be extremely easy to let the Thors focus fire on each other and kill most of your Thors with NP.
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On June 10 2011 03:43 RealDeal wrote:
Ahhh Synystyr, another great build, played 2 custom maps TvZ on Shattered. The build worked EXTREMELY well, he even scouted me floating my 3rd and my natural, he tried to counter but my 3rd had destructible rocks protecting and my natural had a barracks, 3 bunker wall that was untouchable.I was thinking of adding in a starport once 0/1 is started and 5 fact. are down to do some BLH drop harass. Was wondering if you thought it was worth it, or am i better off turteling and waiting for my max army/upgrade army and move out?
I personally don't see any use to it other than drops. I'm not comfortable enough with my play to multitask that much yet so I don't spend the resources on the Starport. However, I don't see why it wouldn't be viable at all Just remember it'll delay your push by that much more.
On June 10 2011 04:00 puissance wrote:
Synystyr what are you thoughts on adding a certain amount of Tanks into the composition as a general heavy damage dealer and protection against NP? This would allow to us go heavily mech centered with two Armorys. Thor count would suffer, but we are better prepared against NP and Tanks are great against all kinds of Zerg ground.
I like Thors better than tanks as the main damage dealer. There's no friendly fire to worry about and they can shoot air. Hellions take care of the units that tanks do: Zerglings and Banelings. Tanks don't fit my style, but I see no reason why it's not worth trying
On June 10 2011 04:44 Badfatpanda wrote:
Very well done post, like the build and have used a build similar to the 3 oc variant on ladder for a couple months now and it has been working out well for me. However I can't help but question shrugging off double upgrades and the addition of ghosts to deal with infestors and roaches. It's clearly the natural reaction to seeing mass thor/hellion and I feel that without infestors, this comp just stomps all over anything else the zerg can throw at you. It seems like a 200/200 allin more than a solid reactive mech play that you can take into late, late game with the addition of ghosts or tanks.
And as much as a bio addition is nice to deal with ultras/mutas you will have no gas for upgrades which is I'm sure why you've stated that there is really very little room to transition.
Actually, now that you mention it a Ghost transition wouldn't be an absolutely terrible idea at all. It fits in with the infrastructure available and nullify Infestors. I'll have to definitely try that out! Thanks ^^
On June 10 2011 04:50 jliu wrote:
also i'd suggest getting the 250mm cannon against ultras in late game - it's definitely worth the investment. i don't think splash from ultras really affects thors that much, and as long as you don't get surrounded, you can deal some serious damage. i've had a 12 thor v 11 ultra engagement (equal upgrades) in super late game on shakuras and i lost 2 thors, my opponent lost all of his/her ultras.
plat-terran. NA
It's been tested the 250mm does less DPS than Thor's auto attack, therefore it's not useful at all  The only reason it could've been useful would be for the stun, but ultras are immune.
On June 10 2011 05:00 MockHamill wrote:
Great post! But does 3 armor really protect you against NP? A Thor would do 54 instead of 60 damage to another Thor, it would still be extremely easy to let the Thors focus fire on each other and kill most of your Thors with NP.
Actually Thors have +1 base armor, so their final armor is 4, meaning they take 52 damage a shot. At 3 armor, it takes 1 extra shot from a Thor to kill another Thor. Absolutely worthwhile to focus on, especially with repair.
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To counter wouldnt adding in hydras to your roach mix be efficient because of the no tanks?
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wouldnt a massive ling bling bust break this without tanks to deal.splash? bfh can only do so much right?
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Synstyr, you are a cutie.
I like the build as a whole, and its an interesting concept for Mech in TvZ.
I can say that 250mm is totally useless, and really shouldn't be researched. Just a waste of income/time.
This kind of build begs for some crazy pickup/drop micro with thors and hellions. Using tactical strikes of a thor and 4 hellions could really put the pain on a zerg. I'm willing to bet my co-NEU student has looked into this, but I just wanted to throw it out there.
<3 always
Chronald
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On June 10 2011 05:13 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 04:50 jliu wrote:
also i'd suggest getting the 250mm cannon against ultras in late game - it's definitely worth the investment. i don't think splash from ultras really affects thors that much, and as long as you don't get surrounded, you can deal some serious damage. i've had a 12 thor v 11 ultra engagement (equal upgrades) in super late game on shakuras and i lost 2 thors, my opponent lost all of his/her ultras.
plat-terran. NA
It's been tested the 250mm does less DPS than Thor's auto attack, therefore it's not useful at all The only reason it could've been useful would be for the stun, but ultras are immune.
doesn't the fact that the 250mm is a spell/ability allow the damage to bypass the additional armor of the ultralisk? I think that a full 250mm cannon leaves an ultra with 1hp after it's done casting (6 seconds attack, 4 buffer seconds) - courtesy of liquipedia. especially if you can prevent a surround, it could be very useful if cast by thors in the center/back in combination with the higher dps of thors in front.
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Can't wait to start trying this out, thanks!!!
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YES! Because of you my win rate against toss sky rocketed! I was having a hell of a time beating Zerg... I can't wait to try this!
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On June 10 2011 05:21 MageWarden wrote:
To counter wouldnt adding in hydras to your roach mix be efficient because of the no tanks?
In my experience, blue flame hellions absolutely demolish hydralisks, so I don't think that would work.
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On June 10 2011 05:21 MageWarden wrote:
To counter wouldnt adding in hydras to your roach mix be efficient because of the no tanks?
Hydras are a light unit and melt to BF hellions ^^
On June 10 2011 05:23 Roblicious wrote:
wouldnt a massive ling bling bust break this without tanks to deal.splash? bfh can only do so much right?
Take a look at the wallins I created. Those will hold any of those massive ling bane busts pretty handily :D In an open field, you need to micro your hellions, but they should be more than enough for the lings.
On June 10 2011 05:23 Chronald wrote:
Synstyr, you are a cutie.
I like the build as a whole, and its an interesting concept for Mech in TvZ.
I can say that 250mm is totally useless, and really shouldn't be researched. Just a waste of income/time.
This kind of build begs for some crazy pickup/drop micro with thors and hellions. Using tactical strikes of a thor and 4 hellions could really put the pain on a zerg. I'm willing to bet my co-NEU student has looked into this, but I just wanted to throw it out there.
<3 always
Chronald
<3
On June 10 2011 05:50 jliu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 05:13 Synystyr wrote:On June 10 2011 04:50 jliu wrote:
also i'd suggest getting the 250mm cannon against ultras in late game - it's definitely worth the investment. i don't think splash from ultras really affects thors that much, and as long as you don't get surrounded, you can deal some serious damage. i've had a 12 thor v 11 ultra engagement (equal upgrades) in super late game on shakuras and i lost 2 thors, my opponent lost all of his/her ultras.
plat-terran. NA
It's been tested the 250mm does less DPS than Thor's auto attack, therefore it's not useful at all The only reason it could've been useful would be for the stun, but ultras are immune. doesn't the fact that the 250mm is a spell/ability allow the damage to bypass the additional armor of the ultralisk? I think that a full 250mm cannon leaves an ultra with 1hp after it's done casting (6 seconds attack, 4 buffer seconds) - courtesy of liquipedia. especially if you can prevent a surround, it could be very useful if cast by thors in the center/back in combination with the higher dps of thors in front.
0-3 Thor vs a 6 armored Ultralisk still does more damage over 10 seconds auto attacking than 250mm Cannon does. It's absolutely useless in TvZ :[
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On June 10 2011 06:12 Synystyr wrote:
0-3 Thor vs a 6 armored Ultralisk still does more damage over 10 seconds auto attacking than 250mm Cannon does. It's absolutely useless in TvZ :[
Something I haven't tried, but just occurred to me: could you use 250mm cannons to interrupt NP and snipe infestors? Is the range sufficient to make that work?
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On June 10 2011 06:15 Matrijs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 06:12 Synystyr wrote:
0-3 Thor vs a 6 armored Ultralisk still does more damage over 10 seconds auto attacking than 250mm Cannon does. It's absolutely useless in TvZ :[ Something I haven't tried, but just occurred to me: could you use 250mm cannons to interrupt NP and snipe infestors? Is the range sufficient to make that work?
If you can get in range, then it may be worth it. It's 7 range of cannons with 9 range of NP. The stun takes 2 seconds to set up before the units is stunned, but it stops the 15 second duration of NP very early. But, assuming Thors are in range, your bio should be as well and you should control those to focus fire, rather than rely on smart casting.
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Are hellions really that effective at killing large numbers of banelings? Banelings are not considered light units - it takes around 10 seconds of ingame DPS time for a hellion to kill a baneling (though you will be doing AoE damage) - and hellions are considered light so they take the bonus damage from banes. Then again infantry isn't the main portion of your army... and banelings against thors aren't that effective. Just curious.
Also, if your initial 200/200 attack fails, do you eventually get weapon upgrades? Or do you keep it at 0? What about 250mm strike cannons? They don't do much more DPS than the thor normal attack (actually, they do less if you have weapon upgrades), but with 0 weapon upgrades they would probably be decent against ultras. And starports... are they just completely avoided even late-late game? With the amount of scans you have I could see ravens being less useful.
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Can you throw the extra gas from no weapon upgrades into a tech-port for cloak banshee?
Mech-wise, the only thing stronger than straight Thor/Hellion is Thor/Hellion/Banshee since you can't go straight roach->infestor to counter. Muta are just laughable with mass Thor builds so you'll be able to harass quite well with those banshees.
Probably don't want to touch strike cannon against anyone who will Strike Cannon your non-NPed Thors.
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This is a bad build, don't use it terrans!
At least I tried, god I hate ZvT when facing mech play. Would some sort of 3/3 baneling, zergling work? Without siege tanks the banelings can get up close and clear all the hellions, leaving space for the zerglings to take down the thor. Maybe using infestors to lock all that into place.
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How do you beat mass muta?
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On June 10 2011 07:00 NeonFox wrote:
This is a bad build, don't use it terrans!
At least I tried, god I hate ZvT when facing mech play. Would some sort of 3/3 baneling, zergling work? Without siege tanks the banelings can get up close and clear all the hellions, leaving space for the zerglings to take down the thor. Maybe using infestors to lock all that into place.
Lings actually aren't that effective against a thor ball since there's very little surface area to attack. Also, the build gets mech armor upgrades very quickly. The hellions can outrun the banes as well.
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I think just a standard ultra/infestor/ling would take care of this. Regardless of armor, one sick flank with some fungals and NP's will clean it up. However that means it's about your army position, which is something mech players have to think about a lot. It would also rely on the helion harassment a lot, because mech otherwise has no mobility and can't respond to harassment very well.
There is no zerg army comp which can kill a ball of units in a chokepoint of equal food in any matchup.
All in all, against someone using this strategy, I would be very wary of the all-in push with SCVs, since if that push reaches the rally point between my hatcheries the game is over. However, if you stop a push like this, you can really get ahead of the terran because of the SCV kills. So that's what I'd be focused on as a zerg defending. As the terran attacking, I would focus on perfect army positioning, since the only way the zerg can kill you is if you are running from one chokepoint to another, and you can probably auto win any base trade.
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No way.
That was you that killed me with this?
T_T
Nice writeup! It hurts me. I hope I'm not in the replay section, I got rolled lol.
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I just tried this against a zerg player. He ended up getting like 10+ infestors and repeatedly fungaled my army as I tried to go across the map, and then finished me with mass ultra. I should have gotten more maurader support, but I felt that I had lost the game as soon as he hit that critical infestor mass. My hellions kept dying to fungal before the engagement even happened (
Suggestions?
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What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons.
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Question:
Which should you want the Zerg to do more;
Fungal, or NP?
For example, if you try to snipe his Infestors with your Hellions (or rather, charge in with them), and he Fungals them, is that worth not getting NP'd as much?
So which is better for you, if he NPs less or Fungals less? (what if he fungals your Thors instead of NP?)
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On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons.
Just did a test, this is correct. NP units still display weapon/armor upgrades but they don't actually come into effect, as the game tries to overwrite the unit's upgrades with your own. This means NP'd Terran and Protoss units will have no upgrades unless you have T and P upgrades somehow (such as by controlling a worker and building a base of another race). So you should get weapon upgrades as well.
I made a bug report thread on this:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2657515883
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On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons.
I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades.
This composition looks absolutely sick. I was thinking that a rush to broodlords would crush it easily, but then I saw Griffith's guide on how to micro hellion/thor and was absolutely stumped. The best I can come up with is just mass upgraded baneling drops to kill the hellions as fast as possible so upgraded speedlings/cracklings can come in and clean up. Pure theorycrafting here, but thor's are pretty bad against armored air units (overlords) so even if the hellions are microed away to avoid the baneling drops, the lings still have plenty of time to clean up before the overlords are killed.
It would work even better if the Zerg had infestors to fungal the hellions in place and you were especially marauder heavy with few marines to help kill the overlords. Have you faced this counter strategy in game? I'm interested as to what your answer would be.
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On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick.
If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK.
How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting?
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@juw
Are you trolling?
There is "friendly fire" because the NP'd Thors will attack non-NP'd Thors.
Armor still helps even if they mass roach. How do those even relate?
Armor upgrades DOES WORK.
It's very efficient. Biomech in general is very very great especially on certain maps, and the flexibility it gives you is amazing. This build is mostly mech and so is a Mech build, but if you go with a more Bio composition like MMA did against Losira in the last set in MLG Columbus, you can have a lot of success too not just Bio or Mech. But the Marauders and Marines really help against Roaches and Mutas because Mech tends to overkill and you will need to use your first 2 Rax anyways; the Bio isn't a waste because of that.
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On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just wow at any guide that is written and formatted well?
Not sure where the aggression is coming from, but alright. I did look at your post, and the one confirming it by Genome852, but from what I can see (and I may be wrong here) is that the NP thors would be 0/0 while the non-NPed units would keep their 0/3, hence taking less damage.
And the reason this guide 'wows' me is because I enjoy facing new strategies and challenging situations and this seems to be incredibly solid. As a diamond zerg player I normally enjoy facing mech because mass roach/infestor just destroys it, but the interesting twists in this one make mass roach/infestor not as viable anymore. I'm just excited to see hopefully viable Terran strategies beyond marine/tank.
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This is an extremely detailed guide on a very interesting build. Good job.
Also, did you get your name from the guitarist of A7X?
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So after debunking the NP upgrades myth, the argument for the 0/3 armor is: your units taking less damage = good?
@Yoshi: Bio in the OP's composition is a waste because there are not in high enough numbers with upgrades / medivacs to really add any synergy.
Also, you should know that armour upgrades are effective against low damage dealers like zerglings. Thors and Roaches are high damage dealers.
@Natsumar: how does this build make roach infestor not viable anymore? The OP himself says that roach infestor is direct counter. If you are going to get excited about new builds, at least read the whole post.
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Well, Roach infestor is able to hit timings well before a build like this is chilling at max food - if they get that far, your only hope is to play serious counterattack style to abuse the poor mobility of Thors.
You still can't really STOP a thor deathball in its tracks (fallen victim to it a fe wtimes myself - even equal numbers of ultras with broodlord support often have trouble because of lack of surface area to attack. This kind of army is just super effective against pretty much any 1-A composition.)
Playing against it, I think going for a mass expand / mass drop style is necessary. mass spines could probably slow the push too, and it should be very possible to mass expand even with hellions floating about - you just need to be able to respond with speedcreep roach and probably have a few spines at your later bases. The terran can't REALLY afford to be putting gas into things besides his mech if he wants to max his supply ever, so you shouldnt have to worry too much about cloak banshee harass or dropping things besides hellion/thor very much.
Oh. Also, broodlords rock (though you need to cover them from the ground vs vikings. Muta/Corruptor will get shredded because they will bunch up like crazy trying to chase down the longer ranged vikings, and then the thor fire will eat them.)
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Basically, the idea of getting armor upgrades only is bad, considering how much damage attack upgrades give to thors (3x2 per upgrade which is huge), and that NP actually doesn't take into account unit upgrades on the controlled unit which breaks the OP's reasoning for not getting weapon upgrades. This is a bug, as NP overwrites the controlled unit's upgrades with your own, which it shouldn't be doing.
The build has a big weakness in the late-late game since the immobility of thors, and how far mining bases will be from your production facilities will seriously hamper your ability to defend them (esp. considering how fast ultras are).
It is still a nicely written guide though.
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=(((
I actually have been using a very, very similar build to this for quite some time now and it has been working out really really well, but now everyone is going to know about it D:
Essentially I do a variation of this where I aim to do early 2 rax pressure into expand and get a quick 0/2 with constant BF harass and move out with about 20 SCVs, 6-8 thors, and like 10-20 hellions (forgot how many of these). Approx ~160-170 food worth. At this time I am taking my third but it isnt really necessary. Essentially I have 3 factory with tech labs constantly making thors and 1 making reactor hellions from about 90 food till I move out after expanding. I could make a more detailed writeup if wanted, but this is just a brief summary.
I just do not like waiting till 200/200 because it does give the Zerg some time to make NP tech or BL or Ultras. These three can make this build problematic, but if I move out before these hit its extremely easy taking into account that I have map control.
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On June 10 2011 14:29 Genome852 wrote:
Basically, the idea of getting armor upgrades only is bad, considering how much damage attack upgrades give to thors (3x2 per upgrade which is huge), and that NP actually doesn't take into account unit upgrades on the controlled unit which breaks the OP's reasoning for not getting weapon upgrades. This is almost certainly a bug, as NP overwrites the controlled unit's upgrades with your own if possible.
The build has a big weakness in the late-late game since the immobility of thors, and how far mining bases will be from your production facilities will seriously hamper your ability to defend them (esp. considering how fast ultras are).
It is still a nicely written guide though.
It is better to get armor upgrades. I have done a lot of work in the unit tester maps with this build especially in the scenario of thor v roach. The only upgrade that is considerable for the thor's attack is the +3 upgrade in killing the roach quicker, pending it does not have any armor upgrades. Instead of needing three(x2) shots to kill a roach it goes to two (x2) with the third attack upgrade. However, getting each armor upgrade makes the thors last at least two more roach attacks.
The main thing when using thors is NOT to die, rather than kill the opponent ASAP. Thors take too long to remax and SCVs make the thors invincible as long as there is BF support with some decent micro to prevent BLings from blowing up all hellions and SCVs. Thors should absorb a lot of the Bling blasts since they won't die easily to them and can be repaired relatively quickly.
And late-game, yes it does have weaknesses due to mobility. However, so does traditional marine tank medivac TvZ. Tanks are so clunky and immobile that it becomes difficult to defend various mining bases. I think that it is easier to maneuver this army than a marine tank army.
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Bio in the OP's composition is a waste because there are not in high enough numbers with upgrades / medivacs to really add any synergy.
Also, you should know that armour upgrades are effective against low damage dealers like zerglings. Thors and Roaches are high damage dealers.
It's more of a waste not to use those 2 rax.
The way you are thinking about the game is bad. Just because the bio is insignificant to the main mech tech does not mean it is a waste. And yes there is synergy; Marines have instant attack so even a few helps greatly by making sure your mech doesn't over kill (especially Thors vs Roaches or Mutas)
Just because armor on a Thor helps against Zerglings more than Roaches does not mean it does not help. You should also know that attack upgrades are effective on low damage dealing units. So either way, it will be the same.
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@Yoshi,
You suggested on using blue flame hellions to snipe infestors a few posts back which tells me you do not know about the match up in general.
I agree that bio can be great with a mech army but we are just talking about this build in particular.
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On June 10 2011 15:05 kathode wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 10 2011 14:29 Genome852 wrote:
Basically, the idea of getting armor upgrades only is bad, considering how much damage attack upgrades give to thors (3x2 per upgrade which is huge), and that NP actually doesn't take into account unit upgrades on the controlled unit which breaks the OP's reasoning for not getting weapon upgrades. This is almost certainly a bug, as NP overwrites the controlled unit's upgrades with your own if possible.
The build has a big weakness in the late-late game since the immobility of thors, and how far mining bases will be from your production facilities will seriously hamper your ability to defend them (esp. considering how fast ultras are).
It is still a nicely written guide though. It is better to get armor upgrades. I have done a lot of work in the unit tester maps with this build especially in the scenario of thor v roach. The only upgrade that is considerable for the thor's attack is the +3 upgrade in killing the roach quicker, pending it does not have any armor upgrades. Instead of needing three(x2) shots to kill a roach it goes to two (x2) with the third attack upgrade. However, getting each armor upgrade makes the thors last at least two more roach attacks. The main thing when using thors is NOT to die, rather than kill the opponent ASAP. Thors take too long to remax and SCVs make the thors invincible as long as there is BF support with some decent micro to prevent BLings from blowing up all hellions and SCVs. Thors should absorb a lot of the Bling blasts since they won't die easily to them and can be repaired relatively quickly. And late-game, yes it does have weaknesses due to mobility. However, so does traditional marine tank medivac TvZ. Tanks are so clunky and immobile that it becomes difficult to defend various mining bases. I think that it is easier to maneuver this army than a marine tank army.
I didn't say avoid getting armor upgrades... I said getting ONLY armor upgrades and completely ignoring weapon upgrades is bad, especially when you're up against upgraded ultralisks.
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This build looks very interesting. Whereas normal TvZ revolves around a Bio core with Fact/Port units as support, this one flips it with a Factory core using Bio to support. If I understand this correctly, your Barracks make the specific infantry needed to deal with whatever the Zerg is making in response to your Thor/Helion:
-If he's making Roaches or Ultras, make some Marauders
-If he's making Infestors (or Broodlords?), make some Ghosts
-If he's making Mutas, make some Marines.
-If you aren't sure, make Marines.
One question I have is whether Bio upgrades come into play? Marines do some pretty sick DPS so it's probably worth a +1 or +2 for the 200 food death push.
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If any of you complaining that he doesn't get weapon upgrades actually watched the replays you would see that he does get them but he prioritises 0:3 armor first. This makes sense as NP damage is reduced.
If you're rushing for a 200:200 push at 15 mins you have limited time to get the number of thors you want and upgrades.
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3/3 mutas or no, I'm not flying into a mess of thors and marines.
I have a legitimate question. What do you do about quick composition changes? Say I meet your push half way across the map and let you eat 30 blings and 70 lings then remax roach infestor or more ling/blings depending on the survivors? Like so many Terran builds, if it crosses the map and gets to Zergs natural, Zergs in deep shit. But what if the Zerg player attacks when you leave your base, then again in the middle of the map?
I'm a platinum Zerg (And I think its important to disclose that since a lot of flames for and against builds come from people who wouldn't tell you what league they were in)
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On June 10 2011 06:19 Genome852 wrote:
Are hellions really that effective at killing large numbers of banelings? Banelings are not considered light units - it takes around 10 seconds of ingame DPS time for a hellion to kill a baneling (though you will be doing AoE damage) - and hellions are considered light so they take the bonus damage from banes. Then again infantry isn't the main portion of your army... and banelings against thors aren't that effective. Just curious.
Also, if your initial 200/200 attack fails, do you eventually get weapon upgrades? Or do you keep it at 0? What about 250mm strike cannons? They don't do much more DPS than the thor normal attack (actually, they do less if you have weapon upgrades), but with 0 weapon upgrades they would probably be decent against ultras. And starports... are they just completely avoided even late-late game? With the amount of scans you have I could see ravens being less useful.
Hellions can kite banelings infinitely, which makes them very useful against them. However you aren't really aiming to kill the banelings but rather force them to be used on your thors. The bio portion of the army isn't that important.
I usually don't get either upgrade. Weapons upgrade can be gotten, but I prioritize it very very low as I don't find it very useful against low health Zerg units. Starports can be gotten lategame if you want to do drops or a tech switch, but for this build itself I don't use them. Just a personal thing.
On June 10 2011 06:49 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Can you throw the extra gas from no weapon upgrades into a tech-port for cloak banshee?
Mech-wise, the only thing stronger than straight Thor/Hellion is Thor/Hellion/Banshee since you can't go straight roach->infestor to counter. Muta are just laughable with mass Thor builds so you'll be able to harass quite well with those banshees.
Probably don't want to touch strike cannon against anyone who will Strike Cannon your non-NPed Thors.
It's definitely possible and not something I've thought of trying. I might have to cut a Factory out for that but it's definitely worth testing! That'll really help against Roach Infestor a lot.
On June 10 2011 07:00 NeonFox wrote:
This is a bad build, don't use it terrans!
At least I tried, god I hate ZvT when facing mech play. Would some sort of 3/3 baneling, zergling work? Without siege tanks the banelings can get up close and clear all the hellions, leaving space for the zerglings to take down the thor. Maybe using infestors to lock all that into place.
Hahaha good effort xD. If your hellions get taken down by fungals, then mass ling works pretty well. I just don't think it would be the most cost effective method of taking down this composition and relies too much on hellions being caught off guard.
On June 10 2011 07:04 naventus wrote:
How do you beat mass muta?
Not trolling right....? Armored mass thors with stimmed marine support does a perfect job...
On June 10 2011 08:59 pikaaarrr :3 wrote:I just tried this against a zerg player. He ended up getting like 10+ infestors and repeatedly fungaled my army as I tried to go across the map, and then finished me with mass ultra. I should have gotten more maurader support, but I felt that I had lost the game as soon as he hit that critical infestor mass. My hellions kept dying to fungal before the engagement even happened ( Suggestions?
Hmmm....it seems that Ghosts would have been perfect to deal with this threat. I'll have to work some Ghosts into this build and let you guys know about that. It's probably the absolute best way to take care of Infestors.
On June 10 2011 13:27 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Question:
Which should you want the Zerg to do more;
Fungal, or NP?
For example, if you try to snipe his Infestors with your Hellions (or rather, charge in with them), and he Fungals them, is that worth not getting NP'd as much?
So which is better for you, if he NPs less or Fungals less? (what if he fungals your Thors instead of NP?)
I'd rather deal with Fungals on my Thors than NP. Fungals on my Hellions is worse than NP on my Thors though. All of it can be taken care of with mass repair, but fungal on the hellions hurts the most. I can at least snipe Infestors to stop the NP. The more NP, the better for this build IMO.
On June 10 2011 13:57 edc.initiative wrote:
This is an extremely detailed guide on a very interesting build. Good job.
Also, did you get your name from the guitarist of A7X?
Thanks! Haha yes, yes I did He's such a badass and the name sounds awesome xD.
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On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting?
What the heck is up with the aggression? If you don't like the build, so be it, but don't start bashing on other people for wanting to try something new. No one here is claiming this to be the best thing out there =S.
I don't follow why NP erasing upgrades matters at all. I have 0 weapon upgrades so the Thors will always be doing minimal damage. When they shoot MY units, they encounter the 3 armor. Because I still have control over my own units, obviously I keep my armor upgrades and therefore mitigate the damage. 0/3 still works...I don't see why it has any downside at all. It's a bug and it needs to be fixed, so I will play with this in mind and not abuse anything.
On June 10 2011 15:32 Sevenofnines wrote:
This build looks very interesting. Whereas normal TvZ revolves around a Bio core with Fact/Port units as support, this one flips it with a Factory core using Bio to support. If I understand this correctly, your Barracks make the specific infantry needed to deal with whatever the Zerg is making in response to your Thor/Helion:
-If he's making Roaches or Ultras, make some Marauders
-If he's making Infestors (or Broodlords?), make some Ghosts
-If he's making Mutas, make some Marines.
-If you aren't sure, make Marines.
One question I have is whether Bio upgrades come into play? Marines do some pretty sick DPS so it's probably worth a +1 or +2 for the 200 food death push.
If you have the spare gas, a Bio weapon upgrade is perfectly reasonable. Just make sure all the other priorities are taken care of. Your bio is only there for support so don't go overboard on the upgrades
On June 10 2011 19:48 Probe1 wrote:
3/3 mutas or no, I'm not flying into a mess of thors and marines.
I have a legitimate question. What do you do about quick composition changes? Say I meet your push half way across the map and let you eat 30 blings and 70 lings then remax roach infestor or more ling/blings depending on the survivors? Like so many Terran builds, if it crosses the map and gets to Zergs natural, Zergs in deep shit. But what if the Zerg player attacks when you leave your base, then again in the middle of the map?
I'm a platinum Zerg (And I think its important to disclose that since a lot of flames for and against builds come from people who wouldn't tell you what league they were in)
This is what Zerg has to do against this composition. It's not an army that goes down in one wave of units. You need to remax smartly with a composition that will best deal with the deathball that remains. Using lings and banes to kill off the bio and a few Thors will make a Roach remax incredibly powerful.
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Just a thought, might be nice to have a ghost place a nuke just ahead of the engagement.
If infestors NP after the nuke then the nuke kills them and reduces NP time. If infestors walk your thors into the nuke zone, you can cancel your nuke and the thors will have done less damage as they will have been walking not shooting.
If roaches/ hydras etc, it will disrupt their attack preventing a full concave surround..
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On June 10 2011 13:53 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
@juw
Are you trolling?
There is "friendly fire" because the NP'd Thors will attack non-NP'd Thors.
Armor still helps even if they mass roach. How do those even relate?
Armor upgrades DOES WORK.
It's very efficient. Biomech in general is very very great especially on certain maps, and the flexibility it gives you is amazing. This build is mostly mech and so is a Mech build, but if you go with a more Bio composition like MMA did against Losira in the last set in MLG Columbus, you can have a lot of success too not just Bio or Mech. But the Marauders and Marines really help against Roaches and Mutas because Mech tends to overkill and you will need to use your first 2 Rax anyways; the Bio isn't a waste because of that.
What exactly are the bio-mech builds that you're talking about? Is it something that's not marine/tank?
Cuz I'm only aware of marine/marauder/tank, marine/tank + something.
@Synystyr.
Yeah, banshees are nice for the fact that you force Infestor Energy and gas to be spent on Seers mid game. There's been some theorycrafting with this but it feels like a wash since your army count suffers and Zerg has a higher max. That being said, forcing an AA response from Zerg can be very useful in the mid-game.
I'm also curious if you're tried baiting fungal with the expendable bio part of your army? Not sure how well that works so I'm curious if you've looked into it.
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Good stuff Synystyr.
I have been doing a pure mech build vs zerg for a long time and even though our builds are totally different, the armor upgrade thing is very interesting. I have always gone to +2 attack as soon as possible simply because I thought two-shotting mutas was great but not getting rocked by bouncing attacks seems better now that I read your post.
My win rate vs z is higher for me than other matchups. Some of the ways I lose is when z transitions to roaches and I get overwhelmed or misjudge the amount of tanks I need or siege at the wrong time. Maybe with the armor upgrades first, I would lose less of the "big" battles.
I have one question though. Many z will go hardcore roaches when they see a mech build and without tanks added in, i can't handle it. I noticed in your reps that you don't build any tanks. Can you go just heavy thor with scvs and hold off a dedicated roach attack with no tanks?
As far as infestors go, I doubt I have the apm to use ghosts effectively vs them. If I see them, I just build more tanks and focus fire them if they NP my units.
1100 M terran
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Good post.
I also have been doing pure mech for a while to fairly good success. I vary a bit from your build, however.
- I find a tech lab starport to be useful for some banshee harass and more importantly, a raven before pushing out. Ever since I lost to roach burrow -> surround, I have been incorporating a single raven.
- I prefer opening reactor hellions, get the mech rolling right away.
- I get tanks to handle roaches and infestors, similarly to bonesy. Usually 5 ish is sufficient.
- I like getting double upgrades. Attack upgrades are great with tanks vs roaches. And make hellions not quite as atrocious vs roaches either.
- I dont wait until 200/200 to push
- I usually dont bring scvs with my attack (i probably should)
Just my preferences though, I'll have to try out your style and see how it goes.
lowly dia terran here though, my tvp's holding me back. 
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There are a lot of strengths to this build which have been discussed so I'll mention some of its apparent weaknesses.
On some maps like Shattered Temple or Terminus Re double-expanding is unstoppable and should be expected; however, on most maps double-expanding is risky and can put you in a bad position if scouted. If the zerg sees it you won't be able to land the third expansion, although this won't put you too far behind since you can still build scv/mules if you decide to make it an orbital. What matters most is that the zerg is 100% safe from aggression till at least 10 minutes into the game, meaning he can get mutas out on 2 base or get a sick 3 base economy without having to build more than a few lings. Furthermore, thor/hellion is not a composition off of which you can expand- you really need siege tech to be able to take and defend a third at standard timing with any consistency.
Muta/ling/bling excels against thor/hellion/marine. The lack of siege tanks means banelings and ling counters are much harder to deal with. The lack of medevacs means you have no drop potential and the presence of mutas means your hellion harass is likely to do little damage. The low marine count means a baneling landmine or even just a good shot with a few banelings means your thors and hellions are now vulnerable to mutas, which will be out in greater number to your thors.
Roach/hydra/ling/bling is another composition that will fare well against thor/hellion/marine. Yes, the mech upgrades are great but since you don't have any way of being aggressive or any form of harassment the zerg is free to get a 3 base economy running and just start churning units out. stopping a 3 base pure-ground composition on 2 base without tanks isn't feasible since thors are really a liability in that situation. This is one of the only situations where I'll ever recommend using hydras against terran.
It's a very well-written OP and I'm definitely going to have lings scouting the map constantly as the game opens from now on.
TL;DR
This build depends on the zerg not scouting the high-risk-high-reward hidden third
Standard muta/ling/bling fares well
Roach/hydra/ling/bling crushes this composition
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Exley, you make some good points. One of the reasons I probably wouldn't do this build is because of lack of early harass. I don't really like the idea of letting zerg power for 10 minutes and then hoping I have the army comp to deal with whatever he comes up with. Most of my wins occur because zerg can't get a 3rd going that easily and I can overpower. If the 3rd gets up, then the game gets much harder for me especially withouth supply trading. I would much rather each of us have 2 bases than 3 bases.
I will say this though. I prefer ling/bling/muta to roach play. I find that bf hellions can kite ling/bling easy enough to mitigate real damage. I also have cloaked banshees in the mix for harassment and to pick off blings if I'm allowed to.
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There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta. Are these guides written for gold league?
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
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The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta.
You have to do damage or equalize before the mutas are out. There are two ways to do this within the context of going thor/hellion - one is to hide an expansion, and the other is to do a blue flame timing that hits between 9-10 minutes.
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On June 10 2011 20:28 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting? What the heck is up with the aggression? If you don't like the build, so be it, but don't start bashing on other people for wanting to try something new. No one here is claiming this to be the best thing out there =S. I don't follow why NP erasing upgrades matters at all. I have 0 weapon upgrades so the Thors will always be doing minimal damage. When they shoot MY units, they encounter the 3 armor. Because I still have control over my own units, obviously I keep my armor upgrades and therefore mitigate the damage. 0/3 still works...I don't see why it has any downside at all. It's a bug and it needs to be fixed, so I will play with this in mind and not abuse anything.
I think you should edit the guide to remove the wrong information though... if you can squeeze it in, weapon upgrades should be gotten eventually - since the reason you stated for not getting them (NP'd thors doing more damage to your own thors) actually doesn't occur due to the bug.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta. Are these guides written for gold league?
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
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The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
With just thor hellion, your only hope is mass turrets, or else you have baller senses with the sensor towers + medics lifting thors around to get some lucky ass pot shots off.
AKA this is a late game unit composition.... not really a guide IMO. Going straight into it is just too passive for my blood. And synstyr himself said he isn't playing, and hasn't play at all since last season and was 3300 master. As he states, your best bet is to get on an advantage/ semi even ground with an econ damage only blue flame hellion timing attack, which does work. I just feel you forgo the map control, and stay on 2 base with a sloow sloooow army.
It's a good guide for anyone giving up on bio tanks in TvZ, which is just so sexy strong I don't know why you would forgo it.
And I don't think it's a bug. It's giving you YOUR upgrades for mech, as the zerg player, which you have none. I bet if you NP an scv multiple times and make up to an armory, and get +1 attack, and THEN NP a thor, you'll have +1
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On June 10 2011 20:25 Synystyr wrote:
Hmmm....it seems that Ghosts would have been perfect to deal with this threat. I'll have to work some Ghosts into this build and let you guys know about that. It's probably the absolute best way to take care of Infestors.
Looking forward to hearing what you find! I've been wanting to use ghosts in my TvZ ever since watching Qxc on 12 weeks with the pros, but the micro involved in mass marine v mass baneling gives me so much trouble.
Keep up the awesome guides! Syn fighting!
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On June 10 2011 07:00 NeonFox wrote:
This is a bad build, don't use it terrans!
At least I tried, god I hate ZvT when facing mech play. Would some sort of 3/3 baneling, zergling work? Without siege tanks the banelings can get up close and clear all the hellions, leaving space for the zerglings to take down the thor. Maybe using infestors to lock all that into place.
If hellions and bio are microed then the banelings can find themselves ramming into thors or else being killed before reaching their target. It's basically the same as pure mech or bio in that respect. In an amove battle z wins, in a micro battle t wins.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
There still has been 0 responses about how to stop mass muta. Are these guides written for gold league?
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
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The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
You can switch to marines easily, you have 2rax and a couple of reactors on factories for hellions. You are not immobile because it's biomech, not mech. If I scout mass muta, I'll laugh and make another rax and stop producing hellions.
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no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience.
looks like a good build though will definitely give it a try thanks
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On June 11 2011 04:40 eu.exodus wrote:
no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience.
looks like a good build though will definitely give it a try thanks
Uhm, it's your fault if don't scout to see if your opponent is making ultras... in that situation you should focus on marauders and thors, no hellions.
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I tried the strategy a few times. It is strong but it is auto-lose if you do not EMP his infestors in time. If he NP all your Thors you lose the game right there. No amount of trying to focus fire down his infestors help. So I would say that including Ghosts is not optional in the build, it is obligatory against any competent Zerg.
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MockHamill, do you have a replay showing the loss to NP. Its just the OP is suggesting NP isn't actually that effective when you have a 200 maxed 0:3 thor army.
Some of his demos show some NPing action but he seems to come out of it unscathed.
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On June 11 2011 05:25 rebotfc wrote:
MockHamill, do you have a replay showing the loss to NP. Its just the OP is suggesting NP isn't actually that effective when you have a 200 maxed 0:3 thor army.
Some of his demos show some NPing action but he seems to come out of it unscathed.
Honestly the armor does more to mitigate zerg unit attacks rather than thor damage, considering how much damage per shot thor attacks do. Also, as stated earlier, weapon upgrades don't affect NP'd units....
It really depends on how many infestors the zerg player has when you attack with the thor ball and positioning, etc. E.g. on Typhon Peaks NP can be extremely deadly since there is no space to maneuver the thors in the back to hit the infestors.
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On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
Zerg spends his gas faster than you. He can also stockpile gas and burn it instantly. Any Z worth his salt will have more muta than you have equivalent thor count. Between 12-14m, your thor count will still be low, but he has the option of getting an impossibly large amount of muta to deal with. The moment he gets enough muta, either by winning a fight or just outmacring you, you have basically no way to get back into the game, because you are absolutely immobile, and have no way to switch production to marines.
Mass muta is the worst thing you could possibly do against this build. Even when perfectly magic boxed, you need 4 Mutas per every Thor in order to win fights, and that's not even counting any Marines nearby. That's basically 400 gas worth of mutas per every 200 gas worth of Thors. Once you add in the Marine mineral dump you probably need even more than this. Zerg cannot spend gas significantly faster than Terran until the very very late game because before 20 minutes or so, gas spending is still capped by how fast you are collecting it. Both players will be using all of their gas into Mutas and Thors. Zerg would be on 6 geysers at best at that point compared to 4 for the Terran. Unless you can find a way to make 3 Mutas beat a Thor (impossible) then it's a clear gas loss for the Zerg. Going for a sick Muta ball will just cut into your Infestor or Baneling count, at which point Terran can very safely mass Marines. You end up with a huge ball of Mutas/Lings vs Marines/Thors which is going to end very badly for the Zerg. All the Terran has to do is dump all his minerals into Turrets when he hits 200/200 to nullify counterattack threats and the Mutas become nothing more than cannon fodder.
The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily.
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On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:
On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily.
He said roach/bane, which is very tough to hold off without tanks. You might be ok if you opened CC first, but otherwise you will probably have your natural demolished.
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On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:
Even when perfectly magic boxed, you need 4 Mutas per every Thor in order to win fights, and that's not even counting any Marines nearby.
Assuming this is right, I'm not sure its spacially possible to fit 36 magic-boxed mutas over 9 clumped up Thors without having some of the mutas out of range. Am I wrong? A 6x6 magic box over a 3x3 clump of thors - seems like an awful lot of space for a unit with range 3...
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On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m. Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily.
He said roach/bane, which is very tough to hold off without tanks. You might be ok if you opened CC first, but otherwise you will probably have your natural demolished.
---Sorry meant to edit my original post because of formatting issues. Could a mod delete that?
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On June 11 2011 06:06 Exley wrote:On June 11 2011 05:55 Sevenofnines wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 02:19 naventus wrote:
The other way you will lose is to a roach bane attack at 10-11m.
Unlikely. The Terran has 2 Raxes. He can easily switch into making Marauders instead of Helions and hold you off easily. He said roach/bane, which is very tough to hold off without tanks. You might be ok if you opened CC first, but otherwise you will probably have your natural demolished.
It's tough to hold without tanks if you have a Bio core because the Banelings are such a threat to a largely Bio-based army. If the Terran is making Marauders/Thors the Banes are not nearly as effective. Unless the Terran just clumps his Marauders and eats the Banes head on I seriously doubt you could break him. Each Thor can kill 4-4.5 Roaches on their own so once the Banes blow up you would still need enough Roaches leftover to kill all the Thors and remaining Marauders. That might sound like a wash but in most cases, washes favor the defender.
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On June 10 2011 04:38 SoftSoap wrote:
Your guides are so indepth and so useful. Thank you so much
haha this guys is gay
synstar i love you man! i want to dry hump your leg! cool guide! *licks computer monitor*
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Great in-indepth guide and really appreciate the graphics support!
However, I honestly wished that you didn't produce this guide as more Terrans will start to realize the disadvantage of siege splash and start to transition back into thor/hellion play. Along my path to high diamond league from gold, I've solely relied on the fact that most zergs expect a marine/tank push, and have benefited from surprising them with a thor/hellion-heavy army assisted by banshees/marines where needed.
In all, I hope the metagame doesn't change due to this guide and then I'll have to do a different build against Zerg
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what you want to do is get 3/3 with double armory, 3 bases and youll be maxed the same time as zerg. and get thor/hellion/ghost, much more effective and I (1500 master terran) feel that it is quite unstoppable unless they get 3/3 ultras
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Wow, I just posted and then started reading the replies...
WTH guys? you are bashing this build only because you are used to your build or you've tried mech and failed.... As far as I know, to carry out a successful build, you've gotta play at least 20 MU's to understand the strength and weakness of the strategy, where then you'll be able to tweak it to your likings/abilities.
For Ex. I like to harass, so I'm used to carrying out a hellion drop the by 8-9 min mark, and at the same time I'm making cloaked banshees to further harass.This harass when successful helps me put a stop to zerg macro and fogs my insufficiency to macro properly (due to spending alot of apm on micro). For others, such as those who can scout very skillfully can then use the Synyster build to the fullest by macro'ing up and come up with a unit composition that zergs cringe at.
A couple arguements:
Terrans who are afraid of mutas need to learn to build turrets correctly to protect the only unit that mutas can kill: SCVs. Try building 3+ turrets on your mineral line. Mutas do very little damage. They take forever to knock out buildings, which is why they only target add-ons and singled out turrets. In fact, whenever they attack my base, it's a perfect cue for me to push the zerg natural because I know they just spend 1000/1000 on 10 mutas. Now, if they actually fly a flock of 6 mutas above a thor, I've gotta ask you where's your 6 marines that can easily melt away these over-expensive units. 600/200 vs 600/600 trade. I'll take that trade any day of the week.
Banellings can roll into my forward-position thors all day long, and I wouldn't care. It takes >20 banelings to kill a thor. That is a whopping 1000/500 vs your 300/200 thor. Note: don't run your hellions first, they're fast but paper thin.
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Rank 1 diamond here. I use a version of this build. I don't double expand. I push out with blue/flame marauder to pressure his third. And then switch into thors immediately after to counter roach/muta counter. It's the same idea though. Solid build. Maybe marine/tank is better if you have insane micro. This build takes micro too of course, but it's much more "a-click."
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On June 11 2011 04:46 noobinator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:40 eu.exodus wrote:
no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience. Uhm, it's your fault if don't scout to see if your opponent is making ultras... in that situation you should focus on marauders and thors, no hellions.
hey noob
please read before you post sarcastic dumb shit like that. I said when he remaxes with ultras, meaning he lost his army to my shit then switched to ultras. How do you think i should magically get enough marauders off 2rax to even make a dent in a swarm of ultras that as i said before appear suddenly.
But maybe since you are such a pro and i requested replays you could provide me with some k thx bye
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dezi
Germany1536 Posts
Nice BO and great write up. Just a question here: i currently play the normal Tank Rine Medivac style (opening with 1 Rax into Quick Factory with Reactor (at Rax to swap) and building a CC while creating my first 2 Hellions - while moving out i yet again swap Rax and Factory (Tech-Lab) to get Tanks securing my Nat after my initial poke with tanks).
Problem with this build is that positioning is very very important and can be the downfall of it. So i must likely would try to use your build but i'm very afraid of Infestors. At MLG IdrA showed how to beat this with going your more Infestors than Select had Thors. How to counter this? ^^
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As a macro player, I tried many times going early double-expand and then turtling until 200/200, but I've found that the zerg can easily get 200/200 before you, take the whole map, and then trade armies with you (even cost-inefficiently) and still come out ahead because of his superior economy. It seems to me that the time between the early 2-rax aggression and the 200/200 is just too long. I would strongly recommend doing constant BFH harassment the whole game to keep up some semblance of map control, snipe drones, etc.
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On June 11 2011 18:04 Daniel C wrote:
As a macro player, I tried many times going early double-expand and then turtling until 0/200, but I've found that the zerg can easily get 200/200 after you, take the whole map, and then trade armies with you (even cost-inefficiently) and still come out ahead because of his superior economy. It seems to me that the time between the early 2-rax aggression and the 200/200 is just too long. I would strongly recommend doing constant BFH harassment the whole game to keep up some semblance of map control, snipe drones, etc.
sadly from trying the build, this is very true. Map control is very difficult to achieve. Zerg will have creep all over the place a hatch at every base for larvae and just waiting to transfer drones from mined out expos, and spot where you want to expand to next.
After using the build i lost to mass baneling infestor roach. Blings just raped the scvs, hellions and marines, roaches mopped up what the fungals didnt kill leaving me with only a few thors, then he just kept spamming roaches and lings till i was out of gas for thors ftw.
I havent given up though. Its a great build. Just needs more practice and tweaking.
Ps. Ultras still rape
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Is there any room for ghosts to deal with hive tech?
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Exodus, I had this same problem (Well it mass was ling bling) which wiped out all the light units between the thors. Try sending the thors in first to tank the bling damage then move your backup units into the thors position. Keeping the thors as spread as possible considering their size.
Also if you scout roach should really be using marauder instead of lots of hellions.
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On June 11 2011 21:41 rebotfc wrote:
Exodus, I had this same problem (Well it mass was ling bling) which wiped out all the light units between the thors. Try sending the thors in first to tank the bling damage then move your backup units into the thors position. Keeping the thors as spread as possible considering their size.
Also if you scout roach should really be using marauder instead of lots of hellions.
will give it a shot.
I also want to try maybe ghosts for nuking expos and emp, and maybe if they go for ground only swap 2 factories for ports and go for banshees or cruisers (lol) just to see what the economy will allow of 3 bases.
The thing i have the most trouble with is the fact that you cant really tech switch. If your first push doesnt do a shit ton of damage, dont waste your time, just gg.
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I'm yet to run into this on a map with an applicable double OC but I'll repeat my first impression. It fails miserably to roach infestor. I open pool, hatch, baneling nest and scout your build with a sac'd overlord/lings at the front door. I know you're either doing pure mech or this build. Pure mech I'd like to wait a little bit longer but you do what you can.
Hellions are only good for surprise and punishing bad zergs. Hellion drops would be nice to see more often but with this build I see mostly packs of hellions running about the map trying to act like they're controlling it. They're not. They're only occupying space my roaches are not.
I have 10 roaches at home, 4 queens and 2 spines at each base. Hellion harass is either ineffective or turns into a pincer death trap.
Meanwhile, I can show up before you have sufficient numbers of anything but hellions and screw up your natural with roaches.
You secure your nat and I subside. No mutas, no lings. I just spread my creep and wait. When you go to take your third I unburrow underneath your tanks, neural your thors to keep them off me while I destroy everything and remake my army for less and faster. Then I walk into your natural while reinforcing roaches stream behind and thousands and thousands and thousands of speedlings are produced to take advantage of the fact that your mass hellions are gone.
This has been my experience at least. Mech used to give me a lot of success as a gold Terran but as a Zerg I now laugh at the sheer amount of turtling required. You can stay on two bases forever but you'll never get a third without being too weak to protect everywhere.
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Ok I have tried this strat some more and I must say it is not viable. It looks good on paper but in practice it does not work. I think the biggest flaw is aiming for late game and trying to play a macro game vs Zerg.
Terran is crap late game, Zerg becomes incredible strong as soon as they are left alone, you most kill them before broodlord/ultra or it is GG.
Drops, cheese and tank push are viable against Zerg. Trying to play macro and aiming for late game is not the way to go since those are the biggest strengths of Zerg.
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MockHammill I appreciate that you've tried it out, it would be useful to have a replay showing how it doesn't work so it can be compared to the replays (which on the face of it work) posted by the OP. If anything it will show zergs the best way to defend it.
I would post some of mine but i'm only Gold so must of my problems are from macro multitasking so probably wouldn't help much.
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Hey guys! I've been reading and absorbing all the feedback in this thread and want to address a few of the main points. I will try my best to go back and answer all of your individual questions that haven't been answered yet.
The points people make for this build being unviable are:
Zero map control/no harass
Roach Infestor -> Ultra/BL demolishes this
Getting outmacroed to the 200/200 race.
I sacrifice map control for a super high economy. If you can't outmacro a Zerg with 3 OCs at that time, I really don't know what to tell you. It's really surprising how fast you can remax an army off of 5 factories. That's 30 supply a Thor pump. which is very affordable off of 3 bases. I really don't consider these an issue at all in my spot in Masters.
In regards to Roach/Infestor, I played a game with Ghosts. I added a facility after my 5th and 6th gasses were taken and cut out the 5th factory. The results were outrageous. My 1200 Masters Zerg opponent went MASS infestors. Ghosts absolutely demolished it, it wasn't even CLOSE. I had just played a random custom game and I literally thought my opponent was Plat or lower because of how easy it was. Here's the replay!
http://www.mediafire.com/?cjb4498x4g9mz47
As you can see, Snipe is outstandingly good, and I didn't even micro this properly at all. You only need to use 1-2 EMPs if you catch the infestors balled up, but snipe should be prioritized otherwise. Oh yeah, I played this game high >_>
So I will be experimenting more with Ghosts and adding onto the guide with the inclusion of them. I urge you guys to do the same and come back with results. PLEASE post replays! Thanks!!
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United Kingdom2950 Posts
Hi Synystyr
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decent build for low level (bronze - plat) tvz gj
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Hey, your build sounds like a retarded all in which if is scouted you can't really put thoses bases. And you won thoses games on BIG RETARDED all in... sorry i need real strategy with skill require, turtle on 2 bases an pray for not loosing the others is not viable.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 12 2011 02:29 lGy wrote:
decent build for low level (bronze - plat) tvz gj
Low level that don't want to micro and want to A move, yes. I do not think it will be viable, at all, at a higher level. Especially on bigger maps. Shakuras/taldarim/ cross meta, you're just boned.
Not to mention, mass infestors certainly isn't the answer... Roach/infestor into infestor/sling/brood is the problem, I'd tell you. By you playing so passive, zergs can tier3 off 4 bases by easily 15-18 minutes, and have broods out..
Thors do NOT cut it vs broods, at all. Good luck getting enough ghosts out to deal with infestors AND snipe broodlords.
Again -- it's WAY too passive. Double early expo, you're asking to get assraped by a losria style 3 hatch tier1 roach sling all in. Hell, any kind of roach sling bling pressure off 2 base, and I don't see a way you can stop it.
All they have to do, is get you to put hellions by thors, then NP 1-2 thors, and you're absolutely fucked. Thor/hellion CANNOT deal with broodlords just by being near them. That's more of a I GOT SURPRISED GOTTA REACT QUICK reaction. It's not something I'd do all game, by any means. Just FG bait, personally.
Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
Aka... weren't...very....good I haven't played a zerg in AGES who didn't instantly know my third timing, and nat timing. Let alone let me double expo. Fuck expo once, and you're dead vs some of these zergs.
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I was skeptical at first but then I watched a few replays and it blew my mind that these zerg players could not crush a Thor/hellion maxed army considering you had been so passive.
Apart from being very passive and being very vulnerable to Losira style busts while you're getting your first thors out, as iAmJeffRey mentioned, it seems to me that the immobility of this army could be abused very easily through multi-pronged harass via drops and/or nyduses or simply by counterattacking any time you move out.
Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
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On June 11 2011 17:23 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2011 04:46 noobinator wrote:On June 11 2011 04:40 eu.exodus wrote:
no replays vs ultras? i almost entirely used this composition until zergs remaxed with ultras. eventually being overwhelmed. having too many hellions vs a sudden swarm of ultras is just sad to watch. especially ultras with max armour upgrades. no way to get enough thors to retaliate soon enough on army trade from my personal experience. Uhm, it's your fault if don't scout to see if your opponent is making ultras... in that situation you should focus on marauders and thors, no hellions. hey noob please read before you post sarcastic dumb shit like that. I said when he remaxes with ultras, meaning he lost his army to my shit then switched to ultras. How do you think i should magically get enough marauders off 2rax to even make a dent in a swarm of ultras that as i said before appear suddenly. But maybe since you are such a pro and i requested replays you could provide me with some k thx bye
In that case, I'm quoting the OP:
"Ultralisk vs Thor is a very close matchup where the Ultra wins by the smallest of margins. However, with auto repair and Marauder support, you shouldn't have to worry about them. Your Thor number will most likely be larger as well. Because of our unit composition, we will never have to worry about dealing with the BL/Ultra tech switch that punishes Viking production so hard."
I'm not exactly "such a pro", and I wasn't trying to make myself look like one. I'm just some guy who likes to help people out. If you think my advise is bs, then ignore it. No need to bash on me for misreading your post.
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thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
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On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
If you can't outmacro a Zerg with 3 OCs at that time, I really don't know what to tell you.
Disagree. If you don't make any units and pressure, zerg won't make any units either. You WILL fall behind without pressure or map control. That's why even "macro" terrans like Jinro and Top realize that you must put on pressure early on against the zerg.
It's really surprising how fast you can remax an army off of 5 factories. That's 30 supply a Thor pump. which is very affordable off of 3 bases. I really don't consider these an issue at all in my spot in Masters.
I don't disagree that it's not affordable. Question: how fast can the zerg remax when he has taken most of the map? Much faster than 30 supply every 60 seconds, I can tell you that.
Edit: I'm not saying your build isn't viable at all, I think it's a very nice and cool build. But don't have any illusions that you're actually keeping up macro with the zerg. You're relying on the fact that your thors can be cost effective against the zerg army with the timing of the armor upgrades but your economy will definitely be behind if you don't pressure at all before 200/200. Good luck!
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On June 12 2011 16:46 sadivar wrote:
thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
If my scout worker doesn't see a hatch go down at the expo, I just stay home and build a bunker behind my wall. In my experience, a 2 barracks wall with a bunker behind the supply depot stops all 1-base rushes cold. Once the rush is stopped, I play as normal, only maybe a little safer because I'm ahead economically.
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I kinda start with 3tank/4 helion/X marines push and then armory upgr and Thor's, and its working pretty well so far 10 wins in a row versus zerg, so i combain this guide +tank push one and its working soooo goood,otho im beating people from diamond/platinum so yea ;(
Most of the time at the time i push, i Expand or go all in, in both way's i win.
its really immportan to scout(with viking or helion) or scan to see what he is going tho.
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Didn't clarify in my earlier post:
On June 10 2011 20:28 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting? What the heck is up with the aggression? If you don't like the build, so be it, but don't start bashing on other people for wanting to try something new. No one here is claiming this to be the best thing out there =S. I don't follow why NP erasing upgrades matters at all. I have 0 weapon upgrades so the Thors will always be doing minimal damage. When they shoot MY units, they encounter the 3 armor. Because I still have control over my own units, obviously I keep my armor upgrades and therefore mitigate the damage. 0/3 still works...I don't see why it has any downside at all. It's a bug and it needs to be fixed, so I will play with this in mind and not abuse anything.
The thing is, you don't want the thors to be doing minimal damage, since the weapon upgrades only apply to them when they're in YOUR control. A thor doing 9999x2 damage per attack is only going to do 30x2 damage when controlled by the infestors... hence the reasoning in the guide of completely ignoring weapon upgrades (you state you "hurt yourself more" by getting them) is wrong.
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This build is horrible against mass banelings. And when I meant mass banelings, I meant shitload of banelings, somewhat between 60 to 100! Terran has no way of spreading Thors for banelings... After cleaning out first big death ball, Terran will never have enough resources/time to build another death ball. Zerg will just continue to smash Terran with war of attrition, such as baneling blaze over third and fourth base, burrowed Roach/infestor haraassment, ling runbyes, etc.
In my honest opinion, putting some siege tanks with this ball would actually be a better option if you see the Zerg opting for non-Broodlord build.
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On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
Hey guys! I've been reading and absorbing all the feedback in this thread and want to address a few of the main points. I will try my best to go back and answer all of your individual questions that haven't been answered yet.
Thank you so much for actually reading the thread. Without losing focus on the build at hand, let me say I read and post in a few "This build is so good it'll get you LAID" threads that after the initial effort to make a guide its completely abandoned.
I appreciate you responding back and commenting on what people say almost as much as the initial effort to write a strategy for TL.
Thank you
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On June 11 2011 17:37 dezi wrote:
Nice BO and great write up. Just a question here: i currently play the normal Tank Rine Medivac style (opening with 1 Rax into Quick Factory with Reactor (at Rax to swap) and building a CC while creating my first 2 Hellions - while moving out i yet again swap Rax and Factory (Tech-Lab) to get Tanks securing my Nat after my initial poke with tanks).
Problem with this build is that positioning is very very important and can be the downfall of it. So i must likely would try to use your build but i'm very afraid of Infestors. At MLG IdrA showed how to beat this with going your more Infestors than Select had Thors. How to counter this? ^^
Ghosts. I've been playing around with them a lot more. Snipe is absolutely amazing against Infestors. I think I mentioned in a previous post, but picking up a Ghost Academy after you get your 5th and 6th gasses is a perfect timing to begin their production. I get the Moebius Reactor upgrade immediately and treat that like a Zerg would with the Infestor energy upgrade and get start Ghosts after 40 seconds of research time. Please check this thread out for a nice guide on Snipe micro. It's helped me a ton
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155732
On June 11 2011 18:04 Daniel C wrote:
As a macro player, I tried many times going early double-expand and then turtling until 200/200, but I've found that the zerg can easily get 200/200 before you, take the whole map, and then trade armies with you (even cost-inefficiently) and still come out ahead because of his superior economy. It seems to me that the time between the early 2-rax aggression and the 200/200 is just too long. I would strongly recommend doing constant BFH harassment the whole game to keep up some semblance of map control, snipe drones, etc.
You bring up a good point. Although I've never lost against a Zerg yet through simply being outmacroed, it could absolutely happen. Possibly adding a Factory and just getting 1-2 medivacs would give me much more harass ability. I will experiment with it and see how it affects 200/200 timings. The only concerns I have are getting my drops sniped or taken down easily and being behind from that. I don't mind going toe-to-toe against a macro Zerg.
On June 12 2011 00:11 MockHamill wrote:
Ok I have tried this strat some more and I must say it is not viable. It looks good on paper but in practice it does not work. I think the biggest flaw is aiming for late game and trying to play a macro game vs Zerg.
Terran is crap late game, Zerg becomes incredible strong as soon as they are left alone, you most kill them before broodlord/ultra or it is GG.
Drops, cheese and tank push are viable against Zerg. Trying to play macro and aiming for late game is not the way to go since those are the biggest strengths of Zerg.
With the new inclusion of Ghosts, going up against Tier 3 is less of an issue. With your 200/200 army, you should ALWAYS be able to trade armies in your favor, this deathball is extremely cost efficient midgame so long as you prepared the proper composition.
On June 12 2011 02:27 Wunder wrote:Hi Synystyr
Ohai ^^
On June 12 2011 03:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:29 lGy wrote:
decent build for low level (bronze - plat) tvz gj Low level that don't want to micro and want to A move, yes. I do not think it will be viable, at all, at a higher level. Especially on bigger maps. Shakuras/taldarim/ cross meta, you're just boned. Not to mention, mass infestors certainly isn't the answer... Roach/infestor into infestor/sling/brood is the problem, I'd tell you. By you playing so passive, zergs can tier3 off 4 bases by easily 15-18 minutes, and have broods out.. Thors do NOT cut it vs broods, at all. Good luck getting enough ghosts out to deal with infestors AND snipe broodlords. Again -- it's WAY too passive. Double early expo, you're asking to get assraped by a losria style 3 hatch tier1 roach sling all in. Hell, any kind of roach sling bling pressure off 2 base, and I don't see a way you can stop it. All they have to do, is get you to put hellions by thors, then NP 1-2 thors, and you're absolutely fucked. Thor/hellion CANNOT deal with broodlords just by being near them. That's more of a I GOT SURPRISED GOTTA REACT QUICK reaction. It's not something I'd do all game, by any means. Just FG bait, personally. Show nested quote +Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
Aka... weren't...very....good I haven't played a zerg in AGES who didn't instantly know my third timing, and nat timing. Let alone let me double expo. Fuck expo once, and you're dead vs some of these zergs.
I disagree. Thor/Hellion has never lost against Brood Lords in my games. Have you checked out the replays or Griffith's thread on dealing with this? The 3 bunker wallin is extremely powerful as well, Thors behind that can snipe endless amounts of roaches and I have instant auto repairs as my mineral line is right there.
On June 12 2011 04:38 Devlawl wrote:
I was skeptical at first but then I watched a few replays and it blew my mind that these zerg players could not crush a Thor/hellion maxed army considering you had been so passive.
Apart from being very passive and being very vulnerable to Losira style busts while you're getting your first thors out, as iAmJeffRey mentioned, it seems to me that the immobility of this army could be abused very easily through multi-pronged harass via drops and/or nyduses or simply by counterattacking any time you move out.
Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
I have played against Zergs who knew I was doing this and played by denying my third immediately. When this happened, I saved my third and prepared a small army to help me safely take my it back and transition accordingly. It's a hiccup, but it's not unrecoverable. Idk, my TvZ timing understandings have always been good so I've never really run into these problems where I lose a contested base.
On June 12 2011 16:46 sadivar wrote:
thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
Those are both 1 base plays, so if you scout no expansion for an extended period of time, you must bunker the top of your ramp. With 2 barracks and repair, it should be cake to handle. 2 base rushes will be stopped by the 3 Bunker wallin.
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On June 12 2011 16:56 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
If you can't outmacro a Zerg with 3 OCs at that time, I really don't know what to tell you. Disagree. If you don't make any units and pressure, zerg won't make any units either. You WILL fall behind without pressure or map control. That's why even "macro" terrans like Jinro and Top realize that you must put on pressure early on against the zerg. Show nested quote +It's really surprising how fast you can remax an army off of 5 factories. That's 30 supply a Thor pump. which is very affordable off of 3 bases. I really don't consider these an issue at all in my spot in Masters. I don't disagree that it's not affordable. Question: how fast can the zerg remax when he has taken most of the map? Much faster than 30 supply every 60 seconds, I can tell you that. Edit: I'm not saying your build isn't viable at all, I think it's a very nice and cool build. But don't have any illusions that you're actually keeping up macro with the zerg. You're relying on the fact that your thors can be cost effective against the zerg army with the timing of the armor upgrades but your economy will definitely be behind if you don't pressure at all before 200/200. Good luck!
It's not a question of who can remax faster, but rather the quality of the army that is being remaxed. A Hellion/Marauder pump for a couple minutes will stomp a Roach remax simply because they are not cost efficient anymore after the army trades. Same with Zerglings against BF Hellions. Infestors are good, but they won't have the energy they need to NP and will also have Ghosts out to counter.
I'm not relying on my Thors to be cost effective, I simply know that they will be. They are an extremely powerful all purpose unit and will carry their weight in a battle with auto-repairs. I have also played a couple games where I take my 4th as I push and instead of pushing the nat, I snipe off other expos and cripple the Zerg economy. It's not game ending, but it does heavy, heavy damage. I personally like pushing the main though because I feel that it is a timing that I can win off of and by destroying his tech, I am able to easily secure one.
On June 12 2011 18:36 Genome852 wrote:Didn't clarify in my earlier post: Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 20:28 Synystyr wrote:On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting? What the heck is up with the aggression? If you don't like the build, so be it, but don't start bashing on other people for wanting to try something new. No one here is claiming this to be the best thing out there =S. I don't follow why NP erasing upgrades matters at all. I have 0 weapon upgrades so the Thors will always be doing minimal damage. When they shoot MY units, they encounter the 3 armor. Because I still have control over my own units, obviously I keep my armor upgrades and therefore mitigate the damage. 0/3 still works...I don't see why it has any downside at all. It's a bug and it needs to be fixed, so I will play with this in mind and not abuse anything. The thing is, you don't want the thors to be doing minimal damage, since the weapon upgrades only apply the them when they're in YOUR control. A thor doing 9999x2 damage per attack is only going to do 30x2 damage when controlled by the infestors... hence the reasoning in the guide of completely ignoring weapon upgrades (you state you "hurt yourself more" by getting them) is wrong.
Ahh you're right. This makes more sense. Regardless, weapon upgrades aren't worth an extra armory or priority over armor in this style, so I'll just forgo it until 0/3 is finished. Thor overkill sucks
On June 12 2011 23:37 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
Hey guys! I've been reading and absorbing all the feedback in this thread and want to address a few of the main points. I will try my best to go back and answer all of your individual questions that haven't been answered yet.
Thank you so much for actually reading the thread. Without losing focus on the build at hand, let me say I read and post in a few "This build is so good it'll get you LAID" threads that after the initial effort to make a guide its completely abandoned. I appreciate you responding back and commenting on what people say almost as much as the initial effort to write a strategy for TL. Thank you
Thank you for taking your time to read and critique my work At the end of the day, I just want to try and help Terran beat Zerg and this is what I've found to work. I like this style very much, and all the feedback has allowed me to expand it and make it better! Ghosts have turned into a must in this build and I personally think once I play around with timings enough, I'll be more confident in TvZ than TvP :D
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On June 12 2011 16:46 sadivar wrote:
thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
Those are both 1 base plays, so if you scout no expansion for an extended period of time, you must bunker the top of your ramp. With 2 barracks and repair, it should be cake to handle. 2 base rushes will be stopped by the 3 Bunker wallin.
7 RR is 1 base. Sling bling bust is not 1 base, and will hit before you even have the 3 bunkers filled. Or, they can just do an econ bust later with roach/sling/bling that, with your late gas, will hit before your first thor even pops out... what with having to double gas at like what 30 you say? 30 after 2 CCs, so it's MUCH more delayed. Fuck, I bet even cut and dry you're not harassing me 2 base muta play would rock this. I had a GM zerg last night on ladder pop 10 mutas on me after harass harass harass at like 9-10 minutes.... so I don't see how you would deal with, at all, mutas just skirting your base until you have 2-3 thors to keep around.
All I'm saying is, I don't think you're playing quality zergs that are reacting well, nor are you posting anything but wins. I looked at your past game history, and there was like... no ladder. A long slew of losses which I can't assume is this build... but I just think you're theorycrafting. I hate to say it, but a lot of your points of the zerg side of the game are just way off base.
If you trade armies, and zerg has 4 base, 5-6 hatch... you WILL not be able to deal with a repop of roach/infestor/sling with just mara/hellion of that LITTLE amount of rax/facs. You won't.
And you're auto repair thors.... FG hits and you have no more SCVs. You walk in a clump, and banes from both sides hit, you have no thors OR scvs.
It's not a question of who can remax faster, but rather the quality of the army that is being remaxed. A Hellion/Marauder pump for a couple minutes will stomp a Roach remax simply because they are not cost efficient anymore after the army trades. Same with Zerglings against BF Hellions. Infestors are good, but they won't have the energy they need to NP and will also have Ghosts out to counter.
So you must have like 6 rax, to repump ghost/mara and then facs galore for hellions to even stand a chance against a quick remax. And roaches not being cost effective anymore after army trades.... really man? Popping 30 roaches and hitting will destroy any thought of you remaxing your army. Even off three base, in my mind, you will NOT have the production to make thors, hellions, marauders, medics (gotta have some medics to lift thors if battle goes wrong. If not, you should think about it. Also lets your blue flame harass more) and ghosts. That's INSANE in the amount of minerals just for ONE volley of each unit.
I'm not relying on my Thors to be cost effective, I simply know that they will be. They are an extremely powerful all purpose unit and will carry their weight in a battle with auto-repairs. I have also played a couple games where I take my 4th as I push and instead of pushing the nat, I snipe off other expos and cripple the Zerg economy. It's not game ending, but it does heavy, heavy damage. I personally like pushing the main though because I feel that it is a timing that I can win off of and by destroying his tech, I am able to easily secure one.
Again, just me. Don't go for the main. Take out the zergs money, and you take out the zerg. Having tech is nothing. By the time you kill it, he can make that ultra den at his expo, or something like that. Always go for expansions, expansions NOT in the middle of two of his bases. Never set yourself up for them to get a perfect on creep flank.
I disagree. Thor/Hellion has never lost against Brood Lords in my games. Have you checked out the replays or Griffith's thread on dealing with this? The 3 bunker wallin is extremely powerful as well, Thors behind that can snipe endless amounts of roaches and I have instant auto repairs as my mineral line is right there.
And one final point. Thor hellion will not kill broodlords, is the problem. You have no way to deal with them, outside of ghosts. You have to decide to EMP infestors, or snipe brood lords. All while the sling/roach left over army runs all over you. You just CAN'T deal with BL with thor/hellion. It's a reactionary defense for a short time. It won't work. You're clumping up. You're setting yourself up for back to back FGs to kill the hellions and let slings run in and kill you. Thors don't even piss on broodlords. It takes TOO many shots to kill them. Ever truely faced a late game 4-5 base Z going infestor/BL/corruptor/sling with attack upgrades and armor upgrades on the slings, and broodlords as well? All it takes is a few FG, a good NP, and you won't stand a chance.
I'm not trying to pick apart your build, or low ball you in any way. I'm, in my way, trying to help you understand certain things.
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Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build.
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On June 13 2011 01:33 Exley wrote:
Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build.
It's getting attention for 2 reasons.
1. The concept of the build (I want to build up a big army of thors, hellions, and ghosts and push when I'm at 200/200 and 0/3) is well-stated and is a reasonable goal. Clearly, getting a 200/200 army of thors/hellions and ghosts in a way that doesn't put you way behind is a game-ending condition if you can get it.
2. The author of the build does not cling to his particular build order as the be-all, end-all build - and when he sees responses which identify issues, he tries to develop adjustments to his build which can account for the problems identified. If you read his responses, you should identify this.
As a post which has actual content and is more than just another "[H] Need help in this matchup" thread, this post deserves the attention it's getting, and quite honestly I wish it got more.
Edit: also, as far as this being a "hidden CC build" -
On June 13 2011 00:08 Synystyr wrote:
I have played against Zergs who knew I was doing this and played by denying my third immediately. When this happened, I saved my third and prepared a small army to help me safely take my it back and transition accordingly. It's a hiccup, but it's not unrecoverable. Idk, my TvZ timing understandings have always been good so I've never really run into these problems where I lose a contested base.
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I think its getting a bit of attention because the current game suggest that a 200 T army cannot compete with a 200 Z army due to broodlods infestors and possibly ultralisks. This combined with the remaxing ability of Z means most T try to avoid the late game vs Z and instead concentrate on harassment and a mid game push with tank marines.
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On June 13 2011 05:03 rebotfc wrote:
I think its getting a bit of attention because the current game suggest that a 200 T army cannot compete with a 200 Z army due to broodlods infestors and possibly ultralisks. This combined with the remaxing ability of Z means most T try to avoid the late game vs Z and instead concentrate on harassment and a mid game push with tank marines.
It's not the fact we can't contend with them. It's that zerg can fight us on our side of the map, tank heavy with sling bling muta and waste 1/2 our army, and by the time we can tank push, very slowly mind you, they can remax up with a whole new composition, or a higher tech composition IE broodlords.
I've many times had a near 200/200 army that, through poor zerg choices, was like water hitting a rock. I lost about nothing, and kept gaining new forward positions.
It is the problem without heavy ghost numbers you cannont effectively deal with broodlord/infestor.
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I don't think its necessarily a hard and fast rule of TvZ but the main issue is that most big engagements that Terran wins are a Pyrrhic victories where 1/2 the Terran army is gone and the push has to just stop. Then zerg remaxes with the perfect army and demolishes Terran's next army. Its not so much specifically that Zerg is OP or Broodlords is OP but more that banking and the ability to horde larvae for insane instantaneous production is just hard for Terran armies to deal with.
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I view the matchup is a sort of scale - near mid game, T production is equivalent, if not a bit stronger than Z. Every mistake that T makes tips that scale more and more to Z favor, until Z production greatly outstrips what T can build.
Two reason:
1) Zerg macro mechanics (obviously)
2) Zerg mineral->gas unit.
Let me explain the second point - everyone is capped 3-1 min/gas. So that means your standing army most likely will be in that ratio, generally with gas units being somewhat more powerful than nongas units. What Z can do though is change his army comp to ALL gas units by converting lings to banelings. If you leave the Z alone when he is maxed for another 1-2m, he gets to make _that_ many banelings. So the Z army gets way stronger over time, whereas marines remain marines.
Currently, there isn't a relevant passive 200 T army that can beat an appropriate Z response.
If you max to 200 because of all the pressure and denying expos, and keeping him on 3 base, the end result is that your armies will be of similar min/gas ratio and the T army is generally superior. It's when T starts losing pushes without dealing damage, and stuff like the muta cloud gets too big, that the game is effectively over.
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On June 13 2011 01:33 Exley wrote:
Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build.
I was thinking the same. The whole idea of this build depends on the following flawed strategies:
* Early hidden expansion: based on your opponent not scouting and reacting, and allowing you to macro ahead.
* Rushing 0/3 armour upgrades to counter NP: Thoerycraft fail. OP does not know that NP'ed units lose upgrades, and he is actually spreading false information!
Synystyr wrote:
With 0/3 upgrades, when your Thors get NPed, they both take and do less damage.
Armour upgrades are horrible against NP'ed Thors due to the high damage Thors do. Armour is also horrible against the obvious counter to this composition: Roaches, Fungal, Ultras.
Sorry but saying "armor makes your units tougher" is not an argument to rush 0/3 upgrades.
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On June 13 2011 13:34 juw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 01:33 Exley wrote:
Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build. I was thinking the same. The whole idea of this build depends on the following flawed strategies: * Early hidden expansion: based on your opponent not scouting and reacting, and allowing you to macro ahead. * Rushing 0/3 armour upgrades to counter NP: Thoerycraft fail. OP does not know that NP'ed units lose upgrades, and he is actually spreading false information!Show nested quote +Synystyr wrote:
With 0/3 upgrades, when your Thors get NPed, they both take and do less damage. Armour upgrades are horrible against NP'ed Thors due to the high damage Thors do. Armour is also horrible against the obvious counter to this composition: Roaches, Fungal, Ultras. Sorry but saying "armor makes your units tougher" is not an argument to rush 0/3 upgrades.
He said you don't need the hidden third to stick around forever - in the OP he said this. In the last couple pages he reiterated it, and said that even in cases where the zerg knew he was hiding a third, it was worth it. You're not even arguing, you're either not reading what he's saying or you're reading "you don't need a hidden expo to work" and then posting "you need a hidden expo to work". How is this useful?
Yes, he did get the NP information wrong. It happens. He should fix it and I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a bunch of updates to the OP later on.
On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:
How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting?
You don't like armor upgrades. Fine. You don't like Thor/hellion. Great. You can not like every single thing about his build and think that this is the worst build on the planet. That's ok. It makes no sense, however, that you feel you should demand that he prove to you that his composition is strictly better than whatever you're using. If you want to contribute, do it with facts and information rather than "I will argue that your composition is bad" and then never doing it.
On that note:
What zerg unit is attack upgrades useful on Thors??
Mutas? You get a ton out of armor upgrades on mutas due to the splash damage. Three points of armor reduces their attack from 8/2/0 to 5/0/0 (cutting the damage done in half).
Brood Lords? Attack upgrades are good here, assuming you need the thors to do the killing (you'd like to have ghosts do it). Armor upgrades, however, are better against broodlings than they are against zerglings at 33% per armor you're ahead. At 0/3, the broodlings are literally doing only their upgrades in damage. That seems good.
Any Ground Unit?
Thors do 60 damage at 0/0, 66 at 1/0, 72 at 2/0, and 78 at 3/0, assuming an armor of 0.
That means:
Zerglings - die in 1 shot regardless.
Banelings - die in 1 shot regardless.
Hydralisks - die in 2 shots regardless.
Roaches - die in 2 shots if its 3/x thors against 0 or 1 armor upgraded roaches (how likely is this?), die in 3 shots in every other situation.
Infestor - die in 2 shots regardless.
Ultralisk - Ultralisk have enough health that attack upgrades do less ridiculous overkill damage.
Is it, then, the existence of ultras which guarantees a person should want attack upgrades on thors??
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you can actually attack a lot earlier than 200/200...
thors really own zergs... especially at the timing when they have infestors but no neural...roaches die to thors, lings do no scratch on 0/3 thors, mutas melt like ice cream in a microwave to thors, banelings do nada to thors, ultralisks are stunned and 1-shotted by thors, oh marines pwn thors but wait zerg has no marines lol maybe infested terrans ahaha. the best counter to thors is also a very brittle counter: the broodlord. a soft counter is of-course the infestor, but it is sort of a handy-man of counters.
scv repair on thors really make this an easy win.. even with 300/300 army of roaches
1a2a3a to victory!
awesome picture by the way...it would be nice to find a way to hide tech as well...tbh...not even roach/infestor can really hold this army composition even with the ease of roach reload...and although broodlords/infestor is the ultimate direct counter to thors, a couple of ghosts directly counters this direct counter... somehow the zerg would also have to manually kill the neuraled thors or he'll still have a severe problem.
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Lol.. I remember facing you on the ladder. My IGN is 'Primo' if you remember. We played a really long game and I didn't 'deny' your third long enough but for sure delayed it. I opened spanishiwa style; went into ling infestor and then couldn't decide which tech to use. So at one point I had muta roach ling infestor. hahah! You denied my bases well, but that's just because of Tal'Darim Altars sketchy fourth bases.
It's a really annoying build to go up against.. mainly because of the BF hellions. Scouting is quite easy because the build up of Thors are hard to miss! Great build, I can see a lot of people 'going back' to this.. as Hellion Thor used to be quite common; the upgrades are great!
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Hi Synystyr, First off I'm a fan and I really like the way you contribute to the community! Nice format and good follow up on your OP.
That being said my opinion on this build is very bipolar. I love mech and would really like to have a non-marine based macro build TvZ build but I dont think this will work because:
Besides epic turret placement there is no good muta defense. Thors are too slow and your few un-upgraded marines wont be enough to stop the 15+ muta blob from destroying your base which will force you to make an all in base trade. We've all been there...
No harass means zerg gets ahead in eco if he scouts what you are doing. Skipping starport is shooting yourself in the foot.
You need to land your EMPs well or your hellions will get FG'd. This is ridiculously hard if burrow is researched.
Upgrade stuff has already been said...
I really disagree about BL being such a threat to this build. Just one more reason to get a starport since 2 vikings will save you from infinite BLs due to hellions killing broodlings. Placing starports is a useful skill toi have.
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From the zerg perspective, the best and easiest way to counter this seems to just be ling/bane/infestor with a ton of infestors. Without tanks with attack upgrades (you need attack upgrades for tanks to stay cost-efficient against upgraded ling/bane so switching into tanks late might not work) I don't think there's any way to stop this. Well-upgraded banelings with an eco advantage are actually a great way to deal with even mass thors; if you don't have tanks there's nothing that really counters them, provided they have infestor support.
Also, have you faced Destiny-style ling infestor? With the ridiculous number of infestors you can have, lings there to buffer and make EMP's hard to land, I don't know how you come out on top in most engagements. I might be totally wrong however; would love to see some decent replays of it, though.
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This gets raped in the butt by Ultralisk infestor. Also NP is such a huge pain in the ass...shouldn't be able to NP massive units period...you can't even kill the NP infestors because you're surrounded by melee units.
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I watched the PF replay and one other and the BL infestor one.
There were some pretty bad choices from the zerg side of things, you give up so much map control, like creep right up to your wall permanently. In the PF game, the zerg should have either harassed your PF with air again, once there were no turrets, or taken it and the workers out with banes after fighting the army.
In the broodlord infestor game it looked like you all inned when he had a big swarm of mutas, he took out one base and then didnt move them again. your army crushed him in the fight but if he had re positioned to the high ground in his main right next to your army after you took out his third things would have been much harder.
I tried this build and it worked once as the zerg didn't expect it, but after that i got beat up hardcore. In the unit tester it seems to win against broodlords i need an all in ish number of SCVs along with my BF hellions and thors, and the zerg to fight on open ground, without any micro, and without any roaches.
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On June 12 2011 23:20 mrlie3 wrote:
This build is horrible against mass banelings. And when I meant mass banelings, I meant shitload of banelings, somewhat between 60 to 100! Terran has no way of spreading Thors for banelings... After cleaning out first big death ball, Terran will never have enough resources/time to build another death ball. Zerg will just continue to smash Terran with war of attrition, such as baneling blaze over third and fourth base, burrowed Roach/infestor haraassment, ling runbyes, etc.
In my honest opinion, putting some siege tanks with this ball would actually be a better option if you see the Zerg opting for non-Broodlord build.
The cost effectiveness of using mass Banelings against my deathball is still only going to put you slightly ahead at best. I can retreat my Hellions and save the majority with them as they are faster than speed Banes. With the amount of larva and gas you spent on that attack, your reinforcing army will be mostly comprised of Lings and Roachs. Seeing as I took little economic damage from the attack, I can reinforce with lots of Hellions and use them to split harass bases.
It's not a bad idea to use mass Banelings to clean up the army, but don't ever assume that I'm out of the game after losing the main army. Hellion harass after an army trade is really, really powerful.
On June 13 2011 13:34 juw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 01:33 Exley wrote:
Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build. I was thinking the same. The whole idea of this build depends on the following flawed strategies: * Early hidden expansion: based on your opponent not scouting and reacting, and allowing you to macro ahead. * Rushing 0/3 armour upgrades to counter NP: Thoerycraft fail. OP does not know that NP'ed units lose upgrades, and he is actually spreading false information!Show nested quote +Synystyr wrote:
With 0/3 upgrades, when your Thors get NPed, they both take and do less damage. Armour upgrades are horrible against NP'ed Thors due to the high damage Thors do. Armour is also horrible against the obvious counter to this composition: Roaches, Fungal, Ultras. Sorry but saying "armor makes your units tougher" is not an argument to rush 0/3 upgrades.
Whoa...I'm definitely not trying to spread false information. Intuitively, it makes no sense that a NPed unit would lose its upgrades. Zerg is only "borrowing" the unit and that unit should keep the upgrades it started with. I had no idea that NP does what it does now and I believe it is a bug....my reasoning is not pure theorycrafting.
You are also only criticizing one of the build orders. The other two are NOT hidden CC builds, and even the first one can suffice even if the expansion is denied.
I don't think getting Armor for the majority of your units is ever a bad decision. I don't see why "making your units tougher" can ever be a negative. +3 armored Thors and Hellions take minimal damage from Zerglings, Broodlings and Mutalisks, reduce a good portion of Roach and Ultra damage and protect slightly against friendly fire due to NP. I react against Fungal Growth with SCV repair and Ghost Snipe/EMP.
On June 13 2011 20:37 Cibron wrote:
Hi Synystyr, First off I'm a fan and I really like the way you contribute to the community! Nice format and good follow up on your OP.
That being said my opinion on this build is very bipolar. I love mech and would really like to have a non-marine based macro build TvZ build but I dont think this will work because:
Besides epic turret placement there is no good muta defense. Thors are too slow and your few un-upgraded marines wont be enough to stop the 15+ muta blob from destroying your base which will force you to make an all in base trade. We've all been there...
No harass means zerg gets ahead in eco if he scouts what you are doing. Skipping starport is shooting yourself in the foot.
You need to land your EMPs well or your hellions will get FG'd. This is ridiculously hard if burrow is researched.
Upgrade stuff has already been said...
I really disagree about BL being such a threat to this build. Just one more reason to get a starport since 2 vikings will save you from infinite BLs due to hellions killing broodlings. Placing starports is a useful skill toi have.
Hey there! I think you have the misconception that your army needs to be all together at one time. When the Mutalisks arrive to harass, I will have my marine ball and 1-2 Thors. Simply placing a Thor in one mineral line and the marines in the rest will deal with the harass. Use reinforcing Thors to deny harassment of your builds and you're golden.
To be honest, not getting a Starport is just me being stubborn as I don't see myself personally using it, even though it can only benefit. Blue flame drops are almost always guaranteed damage. Also, I don't EMP infestors, it's actually more cost effective and efficient to snipe them off and eliminate the entirety of their threat. Snipe has a really awesome range :D
On June 13 2011 21:19 Jehct wrote:
From the zerg perspective, the best and easiest way to counter this seems to just be ling/bane/infestor with a ton of infestors. Without tanks with attack upgrades (you need attack upgrades for tanks to stay cost-efficient against upgraded ling/bane so switching into tanks late might not work) I don't think there's any way to stop this. Well-upgraded banelings with an eco advantage are actually a great way to deal with even mass thors; if you don't have tanks there's nothing that really counters them, provided they have infestor support.
Also, have you faced Destiny-style ling infestor? With the ridiculous number of infestors you can have, lings there to buffer and make EMP's hard to land, I don't know how you come out on top in most engagements. I might be totally wrong however; would love to see some decent replays of it, though.
Yes, I have played against mass Infestor and my response was Ghost support. I will be adding a section to the OP detailing this...mass Snipes and EMP when needed take care Infestors so damn well. Banelings aren't bad either but I think Roaches are more cost efficient personally.
On June 14 2011 12:38 Scila wrote:
This gets raped in the butt by Ultralisk infestor. Also NP is such a huge pain in the ass...shouldn't be able to NP massive units period...you can't even kill the NP infestors because you're surrounded by melee units.
I will upload a replay later of that exact scenario happening. You'll see just how good Ghosts are against Zerg ^.-
On June 14 2011 22:17 zergrushkekeke wrote:
I watched the PF replay and one other and the BL infestor one.
There were some pretty bad choices from the zerg side of things, you give up so much map control, like creep right up to your wall permanently. In the PF game, the zerg should have either harassed your PF with air again, once there were no turrets, or taken it and the workers out with banes after fighting the army.
In the broodlord infestor game it looked like you all inned when he had a big swarm of mutas, he took out one base and then didnt move them again. your army crushed him in the fight but if he had re positioned to the high ground in his main right next to your army after you took out his third things would have been much harder.
I tried this build and it worked once as the zerg didn't expect it, but after that i got beat up hardcore. In the unit tester it seems to win against broodlords i need an all in ish number of SCVs along with my BF hellions and thors, and the zerg to fight on open ground, without any micro, and without any roaches.
The PF replay was actually the first time I had ever done something like that, so it was a bit unrefined. If I had gotten turrets and and such, I would have been in an unstoppable position (mainly because close spawns are imbalanced).
If you watch the replays, you can AT LEAST see how durable this army is. Even if I have to bring "all in-ish amounts of SCVs" with me, if that makes my army nearly invincible, why the hell not? Along with Ghost support, I feel confident in taking down any Zerg army with this composition.
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Firstly I would like to say thank you for coming up with a strong counter to sling/bling/muta combo that every zerg and their cat does nowadays.
Adding Ghosts to the mix to me sounds ideal after watching QXC on 12 weeks with MrBitter. He was using mass Ghost with just snipe to kill the opponent going heavy hive tech, though there werent any tier 1 or 2 units. And reapers oddly seemed to weirdly fit in somewhere... my mind at least.
Edit: Slowpoke on the weakness to Infestor/Roach and that's been covered so.
Does not seem to be anything glarringly weak about this, except needing a quick third base for the gas too support thors and ghosts. Fine, adding it to liquipedia.
However, need to rewrite the first post to cover the ghost counter to hive tech, and stop the trolls from degenerating the thread into a b***hfest.
Also have the options for early harass by opening with two-rax pressure into a fast double expand, which is a real strategy!
Or reactor/double factory hellion opening that is that has really picked up steam recently and Zerg has little in the way of counters, so you may wish to experiment with Hellion opener as well.
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On June 14 2011 23:54 aaycumi wrote:
Firstly I would like to say thank you for coming up with a strong counter to sling/bling/muta combo that every zerg and their cat does nowadays.
Adding Ghosts to the mix to me sounds ideal after watching QXC on 12 weeks with MrBitter. He was using mass Ghost with just snipe to kill the opponent going heavy hive tech, though there werent any tier 1 or 2 units. And reapers oddly seemed to weirdly fit in somewhere... my mind at least.
Edit: Slowpoke on the weakness to Infestor/Roach and that's been covered so.
Does not seem to be anything glarringly weak about this, except needing a quick third base for the gas too support thors and ghosts. Fine, adding it to liquipedia.
However, need to rewrite the first post to cover the ghost counter to hive tech, and stop the trolls from degenerating the thread into a b***hfest.
Also have the options for early harass by opening with two-rax pressure into a fast double expand, which is a real strategy!
Or reactor/double factory hellion opening that is that has really picked up steam recently and Zerg has little in the way of counters, so you may wish to experiment with Hellion opener as well.
Yes, I personally consider this the counter to Muta/Ling/Bane and deals decently against Roach/Infestor or other mixes of units. Ghosts are the key once you get your 5th and 6th gas and are gearing up to push soon. Against Tier 1 and 2, the Hellion/Thor composition excels.
As for the Liquipedia article, Thank you for taking the time and effort to write this up! I will update the OP soon with information regarding Ghost, their niche in this playstyle and replays to go along with it. I'll inform you as soon as that's done
I've never actually done a double factory opening in TvZ before so I can't say I know how that would play out xD. I've done in TvT however so I understand the gist of it. Reactored Hellion openings I am fond of as well so I can see what I can do with that Will play around with both and see if the early Roach response is something I can deal with while teching/expanding.
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I don't understand why so many people are trying to bash getting armor over attack.
The only "critical upgrades" for vehicle attack in TvZ are +1 for siege tanks 1 shotting zerglings, and +2 thors two shotting mutas. Theres no siege tanks so +1 doesn't matter, only +2. (some people might argue for +3 attack for thors to 2 shot 0 armor roaches, but realistically no good zerg would ever neglect ground carapace for that long)
But even then, getting armor vs Mutas is still a good choice. Going from 3 shots to 2 is a 33% increase in dps, but remember that armor tripple applies to glaive worm, and Thors start with 1 armor. So assuming you keep pace with Zerg flyer attack upgrades, glaive worm goes from 9/3/1 to 12/4/1.33 to 11/2.67/0.89 to 8/0.5/0.5 (0.5 is minimum damage). Which means total Muta damage drops from 14.56 to 9, which is about a 40% decrease in dps from Mutas. Considering that armor is also useful vs ground while attack is not, getting armor first with Thors is a no brainer.
And even if your opponent decides to mass Mutas you should be happy because that will mean no infestors. Its easy as pie to crank out marines as a snap response, especially when you have already have 2 raxes from the opening and a couple reactors normally producing hellions.
I think infestor/broodlord is the toughest to deal with this build. Sure you can flock your thors with hellions to combat broodlings, but that will make everything vulnerable to fungal. I'm positive that the only way to combat infestor/broodlord effectively is with ghosts, just like in bio TvZ and marine/tank TvZ.
Ghosts make even more sense when paired with Thors because you're going to worry more about NP instead of FG. NP costs 100 energy to a double snipe 50 energy, which is much better than 75 FG vs 75 EMP. The only downside to double snipe is that it takes 2 actions instead of 1, but so does Neural Parasite: 1 action to NP, 1 action to target another Thor, as overkilling the nearest hellion isn't going to do much harm. And even then, because Thors have a long cooldown, if your reaction time is quick enough your opponent won't be able to get a single volley off against your armor upgraded Thors.
The build already has 2 rax from the opening that you aren't using (except for marines vs mass muta or marauders vs ultras). You know your opponent will be going for infestor pit + pathogen glands + NP, so you can easily afford ghost academy + moebius reactor + cloak, and force the opponent to waste extra gas on overseers too.
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Does thors attack overlord over units today?
Or has that been changed so they doesn't?
As thus then I know what I will be doing
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I came up with a build similar to this but stopped at 0/2. It was honestly pretty gimmicky and I just prayed my opponent didn't go Infestor/Ultra -- because if he did I lost instantly. It can be a fun build and one of those "Best of 5" things to pull out because if the Zerg doesn't expect it you can get an easy and cheap win.
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On June 15 2011 04:44 userstupidname wrote:Does thors attack overlord over units today? Or has that been changed so they doesn't? As thus then I know what I will be doing
When there are any other units around, the Thor will prioritize that over the Overlord. Air units take priority over ground units in other engagements.
However, Thors still have a really annoying habit of stopping to shoot every Overlord in their path once you clear up the Zerg army, which can really slow a push down if you're not paying attention. Just keep move commanding forward with your army to avoid that, unless you want to pop every ovie on the way xD
On June 15 2011 04:48 Tenks wrote:
I came up with a build similar to this but stopped at 0/2. It was honestly pretty gimmicky and I just prayed my opponent didn't go Infestor/Ultra -- because if he did I lost instantly. It can be a fun build and one of those "Best of 5" things to pull out because if the Zerg doesn't expect it you can get an easy and cheap win.
I don't get the same feel with this build at all. It's much more solid and I've used it multiple times in a row in a few BoX's. It's really not as gimmicky as people label it to be
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On June 15 2011 05:10 Synystyr wrote:I don't get the same feel with this build at all. It's much more solid and I've used it multiple times in a row in a few BoX's. It's really not as gimmicky as people label it to be
I guess gimmicky isn't the best word because I have also beat quite a few masters players in a row using a very similar build.
I guess I feel less in control of the outcome of the fight since very little micro is involved. Sure you can position your hellions to maximize splash damage (which is extremely important) but it always seemed to me to come down to "Can my army straight up beat his army." I disliked that style of play so I moved away from the order and composition. Also like I said the composition is extremely counterable by Infestors and since Infestor use is becoming the new standard TvZ it felt like I was catching people with their pants down far less than I was before.
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Thanks for the build!
I have watched a few of the replays and noticed that you build some depots at your hidden third and was wondering if there is a reason for that? It seems like that just gives up free depots once your third is found.
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On June 14 2011 23:32 Synystyr wrote:
Whoa...I'm definitely not trying to spread false information. Intuitively, it makes no sense that a NPed unit would lose its upgrades. Zerg is only "borrowing" the unit and that unit should keep the upgrades it started with. I had no idea that NP does what it does now and I believe it is a bug....my reasoning is not pure theorycrafting.
You are also only criticizing one of the build orders. The other two are NOT hidden CC builds, and even the first one can suffice even if the expansion is denied.
I don't think getting Armor for the majority of your units is ever a bad decision. I don't see why "making your units tougher" can ever be a negative. +3 armored Thors and Hellions take minimal damage from Zerglings, Broodlings and Mutalisks, reduce a good portion of Roach and Ultra damage and protect slightly against friendly fire due to NP. I react against Fungal Growth with SCV repair and Ghost Snipe/EMP.
I know you werent intending to spread false information, but you do imply that attack upgrades make NP'ed thors do more damage to you. And then you falsely deduce that 0/3 counters NP, which is the premise of your build.
Mind controlled units have always lost their upgrades. This applied for SC1 (Mind Control), Warcraft 3 (Possess) and SC2 (NP). So it is not a bug.
- Armour upgrades are good but is it better than spending that money on army?
- Hellion / Thor is a known counter to muta ling. I'm not sure if blind countering is a good idea.
- Builds that say "push out at 200" is not very helpful. Turtling up to 200 is great if you can pull it off. But all you did was outline 3 turtle set ups without mentioning zerg timings.
Naming it the "Synystyr build" is over the top.
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On June 15 2011 10:49 aNickname wrote:
Thanks for the build!
I have watched a few of the replays and noticed that you build some depots at your hidden third and was wondering if there is a reason for that? It seems like that just gives up free depots once your third is found.
That's actually just a really, really bad habit of mine xD. I don't mean to do that and I don't recommend you do it either. It's just a liability and a mistake on my part
On June 15 2011 12:15 juw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2011 23:32 Synystyr wrote:
Whoa...I'm definitely not trying to spread false information. Intuitively, it makes no sense that a NPed unit would lose its upgrades. Zerg is only "borrowing" the unit and that unit should keep the upgrades it started with. I had no idea that NP does what it does now and I believe it is a bug....my reasoning is not pure theorycrafting.
You are also only criticizing one of the build orders. The other two are NOT hidden CC builds, and even the first one can suffice even if the expansion is denied.
I don't think getting Armor for the majority of your units is ever a bad decision. I don't see why "making your units tougher" can ever be a negative. +3 armored Thors and Hellions take minimal damage from Zerglings, Broodlings and Mutalisks, reduce a good portion of Roach and Ultra damage and protect slightly against friendly fire due to NP. I react against Fungal Growth with SCV repair and Ghost Snipe/EMP.
I know you werent intending to spread false information, but you do imply that attack upgrades make NP'ed thors do more damage to you. And then you falsely deduce that 0/3 counters NP, which is the premise of your build. Mind controlled units have always lost their upgrades. This applied for SC1 (Mind Control), Warcraft 3 (Possess) and SC2 (NP). So it is not a bug. - Armour upgrades are good but is it better than spending that money on army? - Hellion / Thor is a known counter to muta ling. I'm not sure if blind countering is a good idea. - Builds that say "push out at 200" is not very helpful. Turtling up to 200 is great if you can pull it off. But all you did was outline 3 turtle set ups without mentioning zerg timings. Naming it the "Synystyr build" is over the top.
I never played SC1 or WC3 extensively, so this information wasn't available to me when I posted this. My common sense told me otherwise, so please pardon the mistake. I wasn't intentionally trying to mislead anyone. I never claimed 0/3 was a counter to NP, it simply just cushions the blow against your army, which can never hurt.
Armor is always worth getting in lieu of units. Every upgrade costs less than a Thor;
Level 1 Vehicle Armor 100/100
Level 2 Vehicle Armor 175/175
Level 3 Vehicle Armor 250/250
I don't play this as a blind counter style. I go into the game expecting any possible composition of units from my opponent, not just to counter Muta/Ling. It's especially awesome when my opponent does decide to play that style because I counter it so well, but it is not the reasoning behind why I use this build, just an added benefit.
Generally, you can push whenever you feel like you have an advantage. Your own game sense should come into play and you should know that you can counterattack after defending a large push or something along those lines. 200/200 is merely the peak of power for your deathball so ideally, this would be when you want to push out, because the army is just that much harder to stop.
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replays arent working. this sounds interesting.
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On June 15 2011 12:15 juw wrote:
Naming it the "Synystyr build" is over the top.
He got recognition for his TvP build and honestly I probably wouldn't have read this thread if it were posted by just some guy who wanted to use Thors in this matchup. Of course if it were posted by someone like Qxc, I'd read it and call it the "Qxc build". Should we be doing different here because the person who comes up with the build doesn't have the name recognition of a Qxc or a Select? I suppose we should be calling it the "Thor Hellion build where you get 0/3 upgrades and try to hide a third after a 2-rax expand"? I think the "Synystr build" works fine.
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I don't think this build proposed like this is viable, since it relies on a few fundamentally flawed assumptions
1. Double OC expand
If you can double expand early game, your economy will be stupidly strong against Zerg. A no-brainer so far. But the flipside is that Zerg can easily kill you with a number of attacks since you have zero tech and 1100 minerals invested in 2 OC.
Imagine Zerg would post a strategy:
"Hatch 15/ Pool 15/ Hatch 20 drone to 60 supply. If Terran for some reason becomes blind i'm so far ahead that almost any army composition will crush my opposition."
Although the strategy is sound, I seriously doubt you'll have much succes on the ladder.
2. Thor/Hellion beats all
There is no question that BFH/Thor with 3/3 & scv repairs is extremely strong, but there are a number of hard counters.
1. Roach/ Bling Bombs. Thor aoe is not really good against Overlords and once the BFF/Scv's explode, the Thors lose to Mass Roach with minimal micro
2. Roach/ Infestor. Fungal the ball twice and only thors are left. Since Infestors have a longer range this is very easy to do. NP with your remaining energy and crush the rest with Mass Roach.
3. Ultra/ Infestor. same as above
4. Ultra/Bling Bomb. same
5. BL/ Infestor. ultra small balls are sweet for fungals
6. BL/ Bling Bomb. same as above
3. I have Ghosts so Infestors don't matter
Off course Ghosts counter Infestors, just like they counter Templar. But Protoss don't stop making templar the moment they see a ghost academy. Compared to Templar, Infestors are faster, stronger and can move underground! so it is easy from stopping ghosts emping all you infestors. Also every Ghost is 0.5 thors less, so you army becomes quite weaker.
Overall the strategy is the standard pure mech against Zerg, which is strong, but has strong counters like any other strategy.
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In the beta, there was a time before the magic box maneuver. During that time, marauder/BFhellion/thor was a brutal composition. With magic box, the strategy died, because mutas could kill it. If you tried to swap out marauder with marines, the composition died to roach/infestor.
The biggest hole in this strategy is your wall. The way you set up your wall mean you will die to 6+ banes and mass speed lings. The bust means that a hole in your wall is created through which lings can stream in. Once they are in, you are in trouble, because they are out of range of the bunkers and in your natural mineral line.
I don't know the exact timings of your build and thus it would be great if you could provide a replay of your build against 2 base baneling aggression Kyrix style. I feel that Griffith 4 OC style has the same problems for the same reason, so I wonder how you manage to overcome those problems.
Nevertheless a nice guide (though I'm not convinced of the strategy). It got me started thinking about double expanding vs Zerg on the maps you pointed out (minus Tal Darim, because that's just 'hope based play' as Day[9] puts it) and maybe reviving the old Thor/hellion/marauder mix and substituting marauder with ghosts.
Also:
1) I would defenitly go double armory and get attack as well as armor. While it doesn't directly change the number of hits for thors, you will always have support fire, that will help you reach those break points in the hit numbers and also it's one hit less for overlords per upgrade (9/8/7/6) and +2 is a huge break as you need 1 less hit to kill mutas.
2) Ghosts seem to be the perfect complement, as they deal with the infestor and mutas (the problem of marauder/hellion/thor)
3) Turtle to 200 is rarely a good thing against Zerg. Why not use the hellions to contest map control?
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I like to do a very similar unit compisition while starting w/ BF Hellions. However i like to throw in 2-3 tanks just as im about to reach 200/200 for that extra splash damage.
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On June 15 2011 22:25 Souljah wrote:
replays arent working. this sounds interesting.
Are they not? I'll double check them when I get back home from work. That's not good....
On June 15 2011 22:57 Kraelog wrote:
I don't think this build proposed like this is viable, since it relies on a few fundamentally flawed assumptions
1. Double OC expand
If you can double expand early game, your economy will be stupidly strong against Zerg. A no-brainer so far. But the flipside is that Zerg can easily kill you with a number of attacks since you have zero tech and 1100 minerals invested in 2 OC.
Imagine Zerg would post a strategy:
"Hatch 15/ Pool 15/ Hatch 20 drone to 60 supply. If Terran for some reason becomes blind i'm so far ahead that almost any army composition will crush my opposition."
Although the strategy is sound, I seriously doubt you'll have much succes on the ladder.
2. Thor/Hellion beats all
There is no question that BFH/Thor with 3/3 & scv repairs is extremely strong, but there are a number of hard counters.
1. Roach/ Bling Bombs. Thor aoe is not really good against Overlords and once the BFF/Scv's explode, the Thors lose to Mass Roach with minimal micro
2. Roach/ Infestor. Fungal the ball twice and only thors are left. Since Infestors have a longer range this is very easy to do. NP with your remaining energy and crush the rest with Mass Roach.
3. Ultra/ Infestor. same as above
4. Ultra/Bling Bomb. same
5. BL/ Infestor. ultra small balls are sweet for fungals
6. BL/ Bling Bomb. same as above
3. I have Ghosts so Infestors don't matter
Off course Ghosts counter Infestors, just like they counter Templar. But Protoss don't stop making templar the moment they see a ghost academy. Compared to Templar, Infestors are faster, stronger and can move underground! so it is easy from stopping ghosts emping all you infestors. Also every Ghost is 0.5 thors less, so you army becomes quite weaker.
Overall the strategy is the standard pure mech against Zerg, which is strong, but has strong counters like any other strategy.
I'm not gonna argue too much because you do have a lot of valid points but also a bunch that I have addressed in previous posts. For the most part, I feel confident enough in my macro, game sense and army composition to deal with any assortment of units, even those that are meant to "hard counter" what I have. It's not as simple as X beats Y in this case.
My confidence lies in Ghosts, armored mech units and auto-repair. It makes for a deathball similar to Protoss, where it takes more than one wave of units to overcome and you can't just directly hard counter it as you like to.
On June 15 2011 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:
In the beta, there was a time before the magic box maneuver. During that time, marauder/BFhellion/thor was a brutal composition. With magic box, the strategy died, because mutas could kill it. If you tried to swap out marauder with marines, the composition died to roach/infestor.
The biggest hole in this strategy is your wall. The way you set up your wall mean you will die to 6+ banes and mass speed lings. The bust means that a hole in your wall is created through which lings can stream in. Once they are in, you are in trouble, because they are out of range of the bunkers and in your natural mineral line.
I don't know the exact timings of your build and thus it would be great if you could provide a replay of your build against 2 base baneling aggression Kyrix style. I feel that Griffith 4 OC style has the same problems for the same reason, so I wonder how you manage to overcome those problems.
Nevertheless a nice guide (though I'm not convinced of the strategy). It got me started thinking about double expanding vs Zerg on the maps you pointed out (minus Tal Darim, because that's just 'hope based play' as Day[9] puts it) and maybe reviving the old Thor/hellion/marauder mix and substituting marauder with ghosts.
Also:
1) I would defenitly go double armory and get attack as well as armor. While it doesn't directly change the number of hits for thors, you will always have support fire, that will help you reach those break points in the hit numbers and also it's one hit less for overlords per upgrade (9/8/7/6) and +2 is a huge break as you need 1 less hit to kill mutas.
2) Ghosts seem to be the perfect complement, as they deal with the infestor and mutas (the problem of marauder/hellion/thor)
3) Turtle to 200 is rarely a good thing against Zerg. Why not use the hellions to contest map control?
With the new light shone on the fact that NPed units lose their upgrades, I see no reason not to get upgrades but I don't think it's worth a double Armory for it, since +2 is the breaking point and would take so long to reach even with a second Armory that I would prefer an extra Ghost or something. I'm honestly just very lazy with my Hellions (not the best multitask in the world xD). There's no reason not to use them to contest map control. I just worry about Mutas or Roaches catching them off guard.
I've definitely gone up against Kyrix-style baneling busts and held them off easily, the wallin is much sturdier than it looks. Unfortunately those replays were from a while ago, so I'll upload more recent ones as the situations arise.
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You and your annoying builds bro
Its Really effective, as a Zerg I have a tendency to throw away units into big balls hoping the best. You can also use your rax to scout, but it kinda gives away the whole secrecy to the build, unless you were already scouted. And make sure to keep your 2 rax units alive as long as possible.
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I'm starting to fall in love with this build...you max out really fast, and if Zerg stays on ling/bling/muta you should always win with good micro. That plus while you sit there and macro you can use hellions to kill a crapton of drones and lings.
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how are folks dealing with roaches with this build, I'm finding after 15 minutes they are upgraded enough to tear thors apart?
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Oh my God! Thank you! I have no idea what to do with Zerg anymore! I lost 15 straight games to zerg on the same freaking map today! Thanks bajillion times
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First: I have no problem with him naming this build after himself, primarily because I read this thread sonce it had his name on it.
Second: while i think there are definite ways to beat this build, I believe it is very strong and requires way more work out of a zerg player for him to break it.
Third: I'm in plat so my word isn't worth much, but don't rag on Synystyr he is really helpful and trying to improve the community. Thanks mate.
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On June 16 2011 08:48 Scila wrote:
I'm starting to fall in love with this build...you max out really fast, and if Zerg stays on ling/bling/muta you should always win with good micro. That plus while you sit there and macro you can use hellions to kill a crapton of drones and lings.
This is a bit of an underappreciated fact about this build. I noticed in all of his replays that he basically stays even with the Zerg in food count and even occasionally pulls ahead. This lasts all the way up until maxed. Under the more standard Marine/Tank/Medi play the Terran often finds himself 20-30 food behind during the mid-game. With this build, you basically go neck and neck with Zerg production so your 200 food push occurs when most Zergs will only expect you to have ~170 or so food.
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On June 16 2011 02:27 Synystyr wrote:
I'm not gonna argue too much because you do have a lot of valid points but also a bunch that I have addressed in previous posts. For the most part, I feel confident enough in my macro, game sense and army composition to deal with any assortment of units, even those that are meant to "hard counter" what I have. It's not as simple as X beats Y in this case.
My confidence lies in Ghosts, armored mech units and auto-repair. It makes for a deathball similar to Protoss, where it takes more than one wave of units to overcome and you can't just directly hard counter it as you like to.
I believe you are sidestepping the discussion. Naturally if you feel you're skilled enough to adapt to any opposing composition with strong macro you're in a good position. And pure mech is a valid tactic against Zerg.
But that doesn't mean it does not have specific weaknessess which should be adressed if the goal of your original post is to provide everyone with a valid original TvZ build. Simply stating that you feel comfortable beating Zerg with this composition because your own skills are superior is not a valid argument in discussing the merits of this strategy.
P.S. what do you mean with "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to"?
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On June 16 2011 16:03 Kraelog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 02:27 Synystyr wrote:
I'm not gonna argue too much because you do have a lot of valid points but also a bunch that I have addressed in previous posts. For the most part, I feel confident enough in my macro, game sense and army composition to deal with any assortment of units, even those that are meant to "hard counter" what I have. It's not as simple as X beats Y in this case.
My confidence lies in Ghosts, armored mech units and auto-repair. It makes for a deathball similar to Protoss, where it takes more than one wave of units to overcome and you can't just directly hard counter it as you like to.
I believe you are sidestepping the discussion. Naturally if you feel you're skilled enough to adapt to any opposing composition with strong macro you're in a good position. And pure mech is a valid tactic against Zerg. But that doesn't mean it does not have specific weaknessess which should be adressed if the goal of your original post is to provide everyone with a valid original TvZ build. Simply stating that you feel comfortable beating Zerg with this composition because your own skills are superior is not a valid argument in discussing the merits of this strategy. P.S. what do you mean with "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to"?
I read "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to" as "there is no clear zerg response which is strictly better than this." I.e. when terran sees roaches, they think "I could probably use some marauders here" - as zerg, there isn't a clear reaction like this that he knows of to seeing ghost/mech the way he's playing it.
The extent of everyone's testing is limited. He hasn't run into an opponent who beat him in a way that made him say "the only way I could beat that is by not having chosen to go ghosts/mech". What do you expect him to say? Would you like him to theorycraft a zerg composition or tactic that would make him cry? He's not sidestepping anything, he's saying he isn't aware of any glaring weaknesses. That doesn't mean that there aren't any, but that's all he can really say.
Also, if you watch his replays, he's clearly a solid player - but he's also clearly not in the same category as someone like MMA, MK or MVP. It could be the case that his strategy is amazing, but sometimes he loses just because he's not in the same ballpark as some of the pros.
PS - I mean no offense here, just saying that sometimes when people are wondering "what beats this", sometimes it feels like the answer is "someone who plays better than I did".
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On June 16 2011 02:27 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:
In the beta, there was a time before the magic box maneuver. During that time, marauder/BFhellion/thor was a brutal composition. With magic box, the strategy died, because mutas could kill it. If you tried to swap out marauder with marines, the composition died to roach/infestor.
The biggest hole in this strategy is your wall. The way you set up your wall mean you will die to 6+ banes and mass speed lings. The bust means that a hole in your wall is created through which lings can stream in. Once they are in, you are in trouble, because they are out of range of the bunkers and in your natural mineral line.
I don't know the exact timings of your build and thus it would be great if you could provide a replay of your build against 2 base baneling aggression Kyrix style. I feel that Griffith 4 OC style has the same problems for the same reason, so I wonder how you manage to overcome those problems.
Nevertheless a nice guide (though I'm not convinced of the strategy). It got me started thinking about double expanding vs Zerg on the maps you pointed out (minus Tal Darim, because that's just 'hope based play' as Day[9] puts it) and maybe reviving the old Thor/hellion/marauder mix and substituting marauder with ghosts.
Also:
1) I would defenitly go double armory and get attack as well as armor. While it doesn't directly change the number of hits for thors, you will always have support fire, that will help you reach those break points in the hit numbers and also it's one hit less for overlords per upgrade (9/8/7/6) and +2 is a huge break as you need 1 less hit to kill mutas.
2) Ghosts seem to be the perfect complement, as they deal with the infestor and mutas (the problem of marauder/hellion/thor)
3) Turtle to 200 is rarely a good thing against Zerg. Why not use the hellions to contest map control? With the new light shone on the fact that NPed units lose their upgrades, I see no reason not to get upgrades but I don't think it's worth a double Armory for it, since +2 is the breaking point and would take so long to reach even with a second Armory that I would prefer an extra Ghost or something. I'm honestly just very lazy with my Hellions (not the best multitask in the world xD). There's no reason not to use them to contest map control. I just worry about Mutas or Roaches catching them off guard. I've definitely gone up against Kyrix-style baneling busts and held them off easily, the wallin is much sturdier than it looks. Unfortunately those replays were from a while ago, so I'll upload more recent ones as the situations arise.
Actually there are more breakpoints than the +2 against mutas, if you calculate, how many attacks a hellion needs to finish of a roach that has been hit by a thor twice:
+0: 4/5/7/9
+1: 2/3/4/5
+2: 1/1/2/2
+3: 0/0/0/1
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On June 16 2011 12:09 rebotfc wrote:
how are folks dealing with roaches with this build, I'm finding after 15 minutes they are upgraded enough to tear thors apart?
How's your snipe micro? Because believe it or not, that really plays a larger role in the initial engagement than you would believe. If you're not sniping like that way it is mentioned in this thread, then you are executing the attack subpar.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155732
Along with auto-repair, you should be okay. Don't be stingy on the amount of SCVs you bring.
On June 16 2011 23:02 Treehead wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 16:03 Kraelog wrote:On June 16 2011 02:27 Synystyr wrote:
I'm not gonna argue too much because you do have a lot of valid points but also a bunch that I have addressed in previous posts. For the most part, I feel confident enough in my macro, game sense and army composition to deal with any assortment of units, even those that are meant to "hard counter" what I have. It's not as simple as X beats Y in this case.
My confidence lies in Ghosts, armored mech units and auto-repair. It makes for a deathball similar to Protoss, where it takes more than one wave of units to overcome and you can't just directly hard counter it as you like to.
I believe you are sidestepping the discussion. Naturally if you feel you're skilled enough to adapt to any opposing composition with strong macro you're in a good position. And pure mech is a valid tactic against Zerg. But that doesn't mean it does not have specific weaknessess which should be adressed if the goal of your original post is to provide everyone with a valid original TvZ build. Simply stating that you feel comfortable beating Zerg with this composition because your own skills are superior is not a valid argument in discussing the merits of this strategy. P.S. what do you mean with "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to"? I read "can't just directly hard counter it as you like to" as "there is no clear zerg response which is strictly better than this." I.e. when terran sees roaches, they think "I could probably use some marauders here" - as zerg, there isn't a clear reaction like this that he knows of to seeing ghost/mech the way he's playing it. The extent of everyone's testing is limited. He hasn't run into an opponent who beat him in a way that made him say "the only way I could beat that is by not having chosen to go ghosts/mech". What do you expect him to say? Would you like him to theorycraft a zerg composition or tactic that would make him cry? He's not sidestepping anything, he's saying he isn't aware of any glaring weaknesses. That doesn't mean that there aren't any, but that's all he can really say. Also, if you watch his replays, he's clearly a solid player - but he's also clearly not in the same category as someone like MMA, MK or MVP. It could be the case that his strategy is amazing, but sometimes he loses just because he's not in the same ballpark as some of the pros. PS - I mean no offense here, just saying that sometimes when people are wondering "what beats this", sometimes it feels like the answer is "someone who plays better than I did".
I absolutely could not have answered the question better myself. This pretty much sums up how I feel about this matchup, the build I use and my shortcomings with it. Nicely done!
On June 17 2011 01:21 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 02:27 Synystyr wrote:On June 15 2011 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote:
In the beta, there was a time before the magic box maneuver. During that time, marauder/BFhellion/thor was a brutal composition. With magic box, the strategy died, because mutas could kill it. If you tried to swap out marauder with marines, the composition died to roach/infestor.
The biggest hole in this strategy is your wall. The way you set up your wall mean you will die to 6+ banes and mass speed lings. The bust means that a hole in your wall is created through which lings can stream in. Once they are in, you are in trouble, because they are out of range of the bunkers and in your natural mineral line.
I don't know the exact timings of your build and thus it would be great if you could provide a replay of your build against 2 base baneling aggression Kyrix style. I feel that Griffith 4 OC style has the same problems for the same reason, so I wonder how you manage to overcome those problems.
Nevertheless a nice guide (though I'm not convinced of the strategy). It got me started thinking about double expanding vs Zerg on the maps you pointed out (minus Tal Darim, because that's just 'hope based play' as Day[9] puts it) and maybe reviving the old Thor/hellion/marauder mix and substituting marauder with ghosts.
Also:
1) I would defenitly go double armory and get attack as well as armor. While it doesn't directly change the number of hits for thors, you will always have support fire, that will help you reach those break points in the hit numbers and also it's one hit less for overlords per upgrade (9/8/7/6) and +2 is a huge break as you need 1 less hit to kill mutas.
2) Ghosts seem to be the perfect complement, as they deal with the infestor and mutas (the problem of marauder/hellion/thor)
3) Turtle to 200 is rarely a good thing against Zerg. Why not use the hellions to contest map control? With the new light shone on the fact that NPed units lose their upgrades, I see no reason not to get upgrades but I don't think it's worth a double Armory for it, since +2 is the breaking point and would take so long to reach even with a second Armory that I would prefer an extra Ghost or something. I'm honestly just very lazy with my Hellions (not the best multitask in the world xD). There's no reason not to use them to contest map control. I just worry about Mutas or Roaches catching them off guard. I've definitely gone up against Kyrix-style baneling busts and held them off easily, the wallin is much sturdier than it looks. Unfortunately those replays were from a while ago, so I'll upload more recent ones as the situations arise. Actually there are more breakpoints than the +2 against mutas, if you calculate, how many attacks a hellion needs to finish of a roach that has been hit by a thor twice: +0: 4/5/7/9 +1: 2/3/4/5 +2: 1/1/2/2 +3: 0/0/0/1
Yes, common mistake is that people only regard breaking points for upgrades when it is a "1v1" unit style fight. There are a total of 5-6 different units in my push (Marine, Ghost, Thor, Hellion, SCV and possibly Marauder) and they all deal and take different amounts of damage. In the grand scheme of things, attack upgrades increase DPS globally through all the affected units. This does leave a little more room for overkill to happen, but with SC2 AI, this happens less often than one would believe.
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Hi Synystyr, I'm a platinum terran and I already use your TvP build on bigger maps, so I decided to try this one, too!
I feel like this build lets you be on par with the zerg macro and you max out really fast.
If they don't find your expo until later, you'll have a pretty good econ with all those mules.
Would you be so kind and watch those two replays? I think my timings are a bit off, so any advice is apreciated.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6063
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replay-videos/6064
Thank you
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Hey, I'm bloody confused as to how you get your third on Shakuras to the blue position.
You say to build it in-base, then float it over? The damn thing takes like 3 minutes to get there and is scouted by anything and everything.
How do you honestly justify the blue position being better than the red position for close air?
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On June 19 2011 06:27 Ghyslyn wrote:
Hey, I'm bloody confused as to how you get your third on Shakuras to the blue position.
You say to build it in-base, then float it over? The damn thing takes like 3 minutes to get there and is scouted by anything and everything.
How do you honestly justify the blue position being better than the red position for close air?
He builds it in the bottom main and floats it from there.
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Basically every Zerg that stays on Muta/ling/bling too long (like they all used to) automatically dies to this build, any smart Zerg immediately goes infestor/x and hard counters you. I've tried adding ghosts but it didn't matter at that point because they had like 10 ultras out. Neural Parasite is the biggest problem, they just NP all your thors behind their line of ultra or roach, and you can't do jack shit about it.
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On June 19 2011 10:07 Scila wrote:
Basically every Zerg that stays on Muta/ling/bling too long (like they all used to) automatically dies to this build, any smart Zerg immediately goes infestor/x and hard counters you. I've tried adding ghosts but it didn't matter at that point because they had like 10 ultras out. Neural Parasite is the biggest problem, they just NP all your thors behind their line of ultra or roach, and you can't do jack shit about it.
The problem is not many zergs stay on muta sling bling. They know it has a shelf life unless they completely commit to mutas, with upgrades. The problem ensues for them when terran go thor heavy. Most go marine tank medic with 1-3 thors, just for skirting protection. Upon scouting more than that, the logical response is roaches, infestors, and broods if he's on tanks with the thors.
A lot of people don't think reaction is a thing that makes a zerg better, and that macro is where it's at. Being able to read and react to the terrans army composition with those 450 mph accel mutas is where it's at -- it's where and when you learn you have to knock the thor count down, and swap to roach infestor. NP + roach DPS rolls over thors whole heartedly.
And to everyone talking about maxing out being a positive thing. Why is max out speed so important to you, if you have all slow beefy mech units? You don't have the ability to control the zerg, or the map with just hellions. With mid-late game creep spread (the time you'd push) they could feesibly have half the map, mineral and creep wise.
The reason marine tank is so solid as a basis is because of the mobility of marines, and the sheer force and panic tanks cause for zergs. As you slow push with marine tank, you use other groups to be mobile map controllers. Pick off OLs, snipe expos, drop in main to harass and cause just disarray with unit placement. Drops don't always have to do epic damage to be effective.
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On June 19 2011 10:07 Scila wrote:
Basically every Zerg that stays on Muta/ling/bling too long (like they all used to) automatically dies to this build, any smart Zerg immediately goes infestor/x and hard counters you. I've tried adding ghosts but it didn't matter at that point because they had like 10 ultras out. Neural Parasite is the biggest problem, they just NP all your thors behind their line of ultra or roach, and you can't do jack shit about it.
actually ghost snipe takes care of infestors, its the mass roach im more afraid of, cause even if u have a lot of ghosts u have to land every single snipe to try counter the roaches.
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Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build.
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On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote:
Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build.
It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP
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Hi Synystyr - question
Thanks for the good build man! Been practicing it against some people and it works well.
Do you have a replay to deal with the 7RR. I got busted recently with this build and was wondering if you change anything to handle this. Pretty much get my 2 expansions up and fill 2.5 bunkers. My wall was def not correct since the roaches could walk past...which I can fix in future. Just wondering if that was the absolute cause for the loss or if the build needs a modification when scouting this.
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On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote:
Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build. It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP
Solve that excuse with getting and running sc2gears. Odd you don't have many replays of it. I don't play much at all. 150 games or so on NA, 100 on EU and somehow I can still get you 10-15 TvZ reps of strats that I run. Just get into sc2gears. You can make the reps named PlayerXvPlayerY-XvX-Mapname-date
If you already have it, then autoloss me. And for an open natural build? I'd reccomend a marine hellion elevator, to be honest. I know I always push it, but you don't invest in infantry. Get a starport + medic for drop / future drops. Does good econ damage with marines sniping queen, BF on slings and drones. From there, you can easily 2-3 fac siege expo safely if you follow up the elevator with just a little viking or banshee harass to keep them further busy.
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Don't know about no weapon upgrades, I mean with thors, you would really want to do one game ending push, not "buying time" to remake them anyway
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On June 21 2011 10:44 micjmac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 05:17 iAmJeffReY wrote:On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote:On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote:
Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build. It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP Solve that excuse with getting and running sc2gears. Odd you don't have many replays of it. I don't play much at all. 150 games or so on NA, 100 on EU and somehow I can still get you 10-15 TvZ reps of strats that I run. Just get into sc2gears. You can make the reps named PlayerXvPlayerY-XvX-Mapname-date If you already have it, then autoloss me. And for an open natural build? I'd reccomend a marine hellion elevator, to be honest. I know I always push it, but you don't invest in infantry. Get a starport + medic for drop / future drops. Does good econ damage with marines sniping queen, BF on slings and drones. From there, you can easily 2-3 fac siege expo safely if you follow up the elevator with just a little viking or banshee harass to keep them further busy. I tried your build and I just couldn't make it work out like you do. Maybe it works if you are Masters level, but I wouldn't recommend it at my level. The level of micro involved is insane, and even with solid micro, the drop can be shut down (which sets you behind significantly). I also felt like all of the tech (including cloak) just made my main way too fragile. I lost to quite a few counter attacks after the drop. Also, it seems that masters zergs give you the benefit of the doubt that you won't cheese them. As soon as a zerg scouts me turtling up early game, they become paranoid and prepare for banshee tech.
Not to topic steal -- you don't turtle. You take map control almost all early game with marine hellion, poke --- pull back, and elevator. The banshee follow is just to keep the contained until you siege expand and churn out of 4 rax for a marine tank push. True though, the handling and scouting is very dynamic. You have to be on top of roach rushes, and any kind of other all in.
And no, master zergs expect cheesy play, hence why they scout it so well. And preparing for banshee tech you should see with your drop. If so, cancel cloak, only get 1, and snipe creep tumors. With excess gas, (300 or so) get another tech lab fac for double tank production.
You can't blame lack of game sense or scouting on a build. I've held literally every zerg 1 base or expo -> aggression style.
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a nice unit composition build...but i still prefer marine/medivac...i'm looking at the broodlord/infestor army and just wondering if there's a way to drop my marines right under the broods...prolly would have to do some major army split...dropping half and running in with another half...hmm yea maybe it would be better just to pump out some vikings lol
it seems like a bunch of thors is equal to a bunch of battlecruisers as a transition...starting out with thors is easier to apply pressure though as the healing scvs get dealt less splash
it's really hard to NP a bunch of battlecruisers and get them to yamato gun each other...plus i don't think Terran would be researching yamato of strike cannon vs zerg....
but then without yamato or strike cannons, zerg's ultralisks are very good
i wish there's a way to have zerg units attack NPed units with the least micro...that way infestor/ultralisks can beat thor armies or infestor/corruptor vs battlecruisers
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On June 21 2011 04:36 inforsomechop wrote:
Hi Synystyr - question
Thanks for the good build man! Been practicing it against some people and it works well.
Do you have a replay to deal with the 7RR. I got busted recently with this build and was wondering if you change anything to handle this. Pretty much get my 2 expansions up and fill 2.5 bunkers. My wall was def not correct since the roaches could walk past...which I can fix in future. Just wondering if that was the absolute cause for the loss or if the build needs a modification when scouting this.
Hey, I don't sorry However...
7RR is a 1 base timing attack. You should easily be able to scout this with either a scan or an SCV after you see no expansion go up. The proper response to this is to throw up the bunkers before your first command center, leave a unit in the attacking path of the roaches and pull SCVs to repair the bunkers as soon as you scout the attack head over to your base.
Many zergs will just try to run by your wall, so you want to make it tight enough that he can't in this scenario. Good luck!
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Could you do this on scrap station too? Take the island as your third? or the blocked of expansion in the south?
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It seems that Thor/Hellion/Ghost is indeed very strong.
So we need to consider basically roach infestor and roach/infestor/hivetech
Against Roach/infestor or roach infestor ultra I also don't see why you want to keep your hellions behind your thors. It seems like the hellions should be the meatshields for your thors as they are easy to replace in mass and thors do way more dps. The only situations where its the opposite is if you are facing banelings or broods and even against broods you probably only want to keep a few hellions behind the thors to help deal with the broodlings. Zerg who is making lings against BF is a dumb zerg.
Ghosts are basically the solution to everything (in the same way they are the solution to HTs (aka if you micro well)). You can snipe down broods and you can snipe down infestors and you can even snipe down ultras and roaches if you have extra energy. You are definitely going to want quite a few ghosts. But its going to be a balancing act because they won't be as effective as thors against roaches so you don't want too many either.
My issues are with the openings.
I agree with people here that your openings are generally really risky, the PF at your 3rd one is possible but definitely difficult.
I think I would prefer to just do a classic reactor hellion opening because if you open passively like this the zerg just has so much free reign to expand and spread creep. All you need really is about 4 hellions to force spines/lings/roach warren/roaches and also delay any creep spread.
I do think you have the right idea with the armor upgrades because there is no crit point with the thors and in my version of this I would just be using pure thor/hellion/ghost. Armor is alwys better against mutas and its helpful against lings if they somehow kill your hellions. If they try for mass mutas, the addition of ghosts will rip them a new one. I think just armor upgraded thors can deal with mutas pretty well, although I'm not sure of the data, but armor is awesome against mutas for obvious reasons.
I would also be in favour of banshees for dealing with the infestors, 4 banshees 1shot an infestor and this would force the zerg to expend some gas to deal with the air, however, with banshees if the broods get out your pretty screwed whereas ghosts have that covered and are better support against mutas/lings.
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Synystry, thank you so much for sharing this build i have been using it like crazy and i am loving it.Don't have exact numbers but i'd say i have probobly used this build 20 times in ladder following yours to the tee,and im around 15-5.
However and the reason i am writing this is all my losses seem to be when a zerg sees my double expo quickly and takes the HOLE map, i mean every base, creep on ever inch..Then i walk out with my 200/200 army and roll his...Then he can insta-rebuild and insta-tech switch, which is when i get rolled back and stomped on 3or4 base vs 7-8base.So i am wondering what to do when i know he is trying to take map, i was thinking of maybe adding in some heavy drop play around 120ish supply, what are your thoughts and suggestions on how to respond to this style.
Just some food for thought, i have found that "the gretorp upgrades" of +1 range and building defense is extremely effective to shut down even the biggest muta ball, at first i was just massing turrets once fully saturated on 3, because thors are so immobile and i was afraid to split them all up along 3 bases.Even then mutas would harass me to no end,until i added turret range and defense,i mean they REALLY beef ur 100 mineral missle turrets!
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Anyways, I noticed a few haters in this thread. A thor/helion composition has been shown to be successful in the pro-levels of play. There are 2 games that I can think of at the top of my head:
1. Brat_OK vs Morrow, (Dreamhack?), set2 on Metalopolis.
2. Happy vs Lucky, GSTL, foU vs IM.
The games that I quoted does not follow the Synystyr build because they push out on 2-bases while Synystyr does it off 3-bases. The most important key is the armour upgrades. I remember the Brat_OK game, one of the commentators said that he had reached that all important +2 armour upgrade. Brat_OK was losing but his push did enough damage to score the win. Another key is to spread the thors out (avoid baneling splash) and effective micro of the helions.
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Thanks for the build Synystr - but one question
If your opponent is going pure mass roach (and reinforcing with like 30 at a time) would switching to tanks be a good idea? I mean, you're going to get 5 tanks out at a time from 5 facts, and marauders would only be out of 2rax, which takes forever. I mean, you're going to be on 3 bases, you're going to be able to afford the tank tech switch aren't you?
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On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote:
Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build. It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP
Still waiting... 
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On June 26 2011 15:49 Azzur wrote:
Anyways, I noticed a few haters in this thread. A thor/helion composition has been shown to be successful in the pro-levels of play. There are 2 games that I can think of at the top of my head:
1. Brat_OK vs Morrow, (Dreamhack?), set2 on Metalopolis.
2. Happy vs Lucky, GSTL, foU vs IM.
The games that I quoted does not follow the Synystyr build because they push out on 2-bases while Synystyr does it off 3-bases. The most important key is the armour upgrades. I remember the Brat_OK game, one of the commentators said that he had reached that all important +2 armour upgrade. Brat_OK was losing but his push did enough damage to score the win. Another key is to spread the thors out (avoid baneling splash) and effective micro of the helions.
The Brat_OK vs Morrow was actually set 3.
http://blip.tv/day9tv/brat_ok-t-vs-morrow-z-g3-dreamhack-summer-group-b-5289989
But yeah in both games the Zergs were able to hold until the +2 Armor upgrade finished and then they got smashed.
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Thanks Synystyr I have great success on using this build in map that i can wall off the choke easily. Do you have a replay on countering Ultralisk, lings,blings? i lost a few games when they managed to get out ultralisk. How should i micro my army against this?
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On June 16 2011 12:09 rebotfc wrote:
how are folks dealing with roaches with this build, I'm finding after 15 minutes they are upgraded enough to tear thors apart?
I've been doing a variation with two rax with tech labs and getting marauders from those. If the opponent is going roaches, you don't need the hellions using excess minerals, so its better some of it goes to marauders. And then you can easily switch to ghosts at the mid-late game.
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On June 23 2011 23:43 Zavinout wrote:
Could you do this on scrap station too? Take the island as your third? or the blocked of expansion in the south?
I would try an expo to the south, but yeah its definitely viable on Scrap Station. I just hate that map so I have it thumbsed down xD
On June 27 2011 11:58 deathtrance wrote:
Thanks for the build Synystr - but one question
If your opponent is going pure mass roach (and reinforcing with like 30 at a time) would switching to tanks be a good idea? I mean, you're going to get 5 tanks out at a time from 5 facts, and marauders would only be out of 2rax, which takes forever. I mean, you're going to be on 3 bases, you're going to be able to afford the tank tech switch aren't you?
I suppose you could, but I avoid tanks simply because I prefer Thor/Marauder against Roaches. I haven't actually tried this though so I couldn't tell you...I don't see why not though.
On June 27 2011 12:43 micjmac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote:On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote:
Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build. It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP Still waiting...
Agh sorry I've been tied up for a bit >_> Will be up by this weekend, promise!
On June 28 2011 13:56 jlai wrote:
Thanks Synystyr I have great success on using this build in map that i can wall off the choke easily. Do you have a replay on countering Ultralisk, lings,blings? i lost a few games when they managed to get out ultralisk. How should i micro my army against this?
Ultras need to be sniped and focused by Thors ASAP. They're a high priority target since they rip Thors up quite well. If you can get your Hellions in front of your Thors at that point, then you should be able to take care of them quite easily.
Against Bling/Ling, you need to micro your hellions so that they do not die to the initial baneling wave and then reposition them behind your Thors so they can attack the lings freely.
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Against Bling/Ling, you need to micro your hellions so that they do not die to the initial baneling wave and then reposition them behind your Thors so they can attack the lings freely.
And if they come from more than one angle, and have slings infront of them blocking your 3.5 range? Or even come from multiple angles with sling bling at all sides? With little to no tanks you cannot target fire into baneling balls...
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On June 29 2011 09:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +Against Bling/Ling, you need to micro your hellions so that they do not die to the initial baneling wave and then reposition them behind your Thors so they can attack the lings freely.
And if they come from more than one angle, and have slings infront of them blocking your 3.5 range? Or even come from multiple angles with sling bling at all sides? With little to no tanks you cannot target fire into baneling balls...
i think that if ur thors arent too much clumped up they should hold banes easily, trick is to not lose ur hellions and get surrounded by lings
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On June 21 2011 05:17 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote:On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote:
Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build. It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP Solve that excuse with getting and running sc2gears. Odd you don't have many replays of it. I don't play much at all. 150 games or so on NA, 100 on EU and somehow I can still get you 10-15 TvZ reps of strats that I run. Just get into sc2gears. You can make the reps named PlayerXvPlayerY-XvX-Mapname-date If you already have it, then autoloss me. And for an open natural build? I'd reccomend a marine hellion elevator, to be honest. I know I always push it, but you don't invest in infantry. Get a starport + medic for drop / future drops. Does good econ damage with marines sniping queen, BF on slings and drones. From there, you can easily 2-3 fac siege expo safely if you follow up the elevator with just a little viking or banshee harass to keep them further busy.
You recommend marine/hellion elevator for everything bro :p
On June 24 2011 02:34 statikg wrote:
I would also be in favour of banshees for dealing with the infestors, 4 banshees 1shot an infestor and this would force the zerg to expend some gas to deal with the air, however, with banshees if the broods get out your pretty screwed whereas ghosts have that covered and are better support against mutas/lings.
I think I've said that banshees countered infestors when there are few infestors before but Pokebunny said it was extremely micro-intensive to go banshee wolf-pack on infestors in my old Marine/Raven thread. However, I think just popping one banshee out every so often and harassing with them to force spores and overseers would be good.
If there are many infestors then you can force fungals and Infested Terrans and basically dead-weight an infestor for the price of a banshee.
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On June 29 2011 09:26 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +Against Bling/Ling, you need to micro your hellions so that they do not die to the initial baneling wave and then reposition them behind your Thors so they can attack the lings freely.
And if they come from more than one angle, and have slings infront of them blocking your 3.5 range? Or even come from multiple angles with sling bling at all sides? With little to no tanks you cannot target fire into baneling balls...
How often do you have your hellions surrounded by speedlings (which are only barely faster than hellions) and banelings (which are slower than hellions) in a way which you are still able to tell yourself that you played well? Isn't it pretty easy to use hellions speed to mess with flank opportunities? I mean maybe there's nothing you can do - I'm not sure, I don't have the APM to master the tactics of it all myself. But it seems to me that in most engagements if you have lots of really fast units, you shouldn't find yourself surrounded.
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nice i really liked your post, as a zerg i can say that this is indeed very powerful and if executed properly very hard to stop. but it all really comes down to one fight and it is pretty vulnerable to infester late game harass but non-theless good
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for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it.
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On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it.
Please reread the thread. This has already been discussed on one of the previous pages. The basic idea is that Thors do more damage when just auto-attacking, and there is some amount of wasted overkill damage if you use this and other units fire on your target. It just isn't that useful of an ability (certainly not compared to snipe) - that's why it isn't mentioned.
On June 10 2011 06:12 Synystyr wrote:
0-3 Thor vs a 6 armored Ultralisk still does more damage over 10 seconds auto attacking than 250mm Cannon does. It's absolutely useless in TvZ :[
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Hi, I've added this build to the Liquipedia. I changed around some sentence structure to make it more consistent (mostly removing self-reference pronouns like "I" and "me") and sectioned it off according to how most builds on there go (which was a bit tricky since you listed three different build orders!).
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/0/3_Hellion/Thor_(vs._Zerg)
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On June 29 2011 09:19 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 23:43 Zavinout wrote:
Could you do this on scrap station too? Take the island as your third? or the blocked of expansion in the south? I would try an expo to the south, but yeah its definitely viable on Scrap Station. I just hate that map so I have it thumbsed down xD Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 11:58 deathtrance wrote:
Thanks for the build Synystr - but one question
If your opponent is going pure mass roach (and reinforcing with like 30 at a time) would switching to tanks be a good idea? I mean, you're going to get 5 tanks out at a time from 5 facts, and marauders would only be out of 2rax, which takes forever. I mean, you're going to be on 3 bases, you're going to be able to afford the tank tech switch aren't you? I suppose you could, but I avoid tanks simply because I prefer Thor/Marauder against Roaches. I haven't actually tried this though so I couldn't tell you...I don't see why not though. Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 12:43 micjmac wrote:On June 20 2011 11:56 Synystyr wrote:On June 20 2011 10:04 micjmac wrote:
Just curious what build you are using on open naturals if you haven't really heavily tested the 1OC expand build. It's not that I haven't heavily tested it (It's the most powerful 2 base all-in I know of), I just don't have recent replays of it that I have saved. I do now and I'll get them up ASAP Still waiting... Agh sorry I've been tied up for a bit >_> Will be up by this weekend, promise! Show nested quote +On June 28 2011 13:56 jlai wrote:
Thanks Synystyr I have great success on using this build in map that i can wall off the choke easily. Do you have a replay on countering Ultralisk, lings,blings? i lost a few games when they managed to get out ultralisk. How should i micro my army against this? Ultras need to be sniped and focused by Thors ASAP. They're a high priority target since they rip Thors up quite well. If you can get your Hellions in front of your Thors at that point, then you should be able to take care of them quite easily. Against Bling/Ling, you need to micro your hellions so that they do not die to the initial baneling wave and then reposition them behind your Thors so they can attack the lings freely.
Thanks Synystyr,
After trying this build for 20-30 games, i have been using this build as my default build. just some questions in my head. i usually hot key all my thors and move my hellions/scvs to follow the one of the thors in the middle. if they go ling/bling/muta, i have high condifence that i would win.
1) How many SCvs should i produce before max? i run into a situation where i got too many SCVs in 3 bases and hence my army size is smaller. Also building Thors is just too slow that i can't afford to wait reinforcement to come.
2) Does it mean that we can now double upgrade attack/armor? saw that earlier in this post ppl're saying upgrades don't apply to NP from Infestors. if the other guy goes roach with upgrade i have a hard time to flight off.
3) There was a game where Zerg went bling/roach/infestors and he loaded up Blings in his overlords and drop on my hellions and marines. He pulled all his overlords on top of my thors so my thors auto attack the overlords. at the same time he used his infestor to NR my thors. Any better engagement ideas on this?
Great build! Cheers.
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On June 30 2011 07:21 aisight wrote:Hi, I've added this build to the Liquipedia. I changed around some sentence structure to make it more consistent (mostly removing self-reference pronouns like "I" and "me") and sectioned it off according to how most builds on there go (which was a bit tricky since you listed three different build orders!). http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/0/3_Hellion/Thor_(vs._Zerg)
You're awesome Thank you SO much!
On July 05 2011 02:23 jlai wrote:
Thanks Synystyr,
After trying this build for 20-30 games, i have been using this build as my default build. just some questions in my head. i usually hot key all my thors and move my hellions/scvs to follow the one of the thors in the middle. if they go ling/bling/muta, i have high condifence that i would win.
1) How many SCvs should i produce before max? i run into a situation where i got too many SCVs in 3 bases and hence my army size is smaller. Also building Thors is just too slow that i can't afford to wait reinforcement to come.
2) Does it mean that we can now double upgrade attack/armor? saw that earlier in this post ppl're saying upgrades don't apply to NP from Infestors. if the other guy goes roach with upgrade i have a hard time to flight off.
3) There was a game where Zerg went bling/roach/infestors and he loaded up Blings in his overlords and drop on my hellions and marines. He pulled all his overlords on top of my thors so my thors auto attack the overlords. at the same time he used his infestor to NR my thors. Any better engagement ideas on this?
Great build! Cheers.
1. I would stop between 60-70 and let the MULEs take over. At that point, you should have a 4th going up and easily keep your mining bases saturated without having an overwhelming amount of workers.
The key to Thor reinforcements are to have them come in waves. You have 5 factories and should try your best to have all your Thors build at the same time. This makes your reinforcing wave slow, but extremely powerful.
2. You can if you'd like, but be aware the adding another Armory + another upgrade is more expensive than it sounds. Armor upgrades should still be the top priority.
3. Micro your hellions away from the overlords and do whatever it takes to make sure they don't die. You should have Ghosts in your composition so be sure to snipe the Infestors ASAP. Thors should not be attacking the overlords...they have no attack priority if anything else is attacking the Thors. Otherwise, just spread your army as much as possible and hope for the best xD.
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Hm, I wonder if there is any way to sort of integrate some early tank push; after all, you have quite a few marines at the start, unless you really want to get thors damn fast.
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Guys does anyone have a replay of them doing the single expand build? Do you think its better to stick with this build on maps you can't double expand (I really like this build) or should I just stick with siege tank rine on those maps?
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Not sure if this has been asked yet, but could this work as a transition from standard 2 rax pressure and maybe get medivacs for bf hellion drops while turtling for the doom push?
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2 rax doesn't transition well. on small maps you can't transition to starport play that quick you'll lose to econ baneling all in, see MVP vs dimaga, or bomber vs kyrix. 2 rax is always followed by a CC, and then choice of 2 more rax or double gas + bunkers.
can't believe you still don't understand timings.
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Defs gonna try this, I have a hard time with TvZ
And your 4 port worked wonders
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On July 18 2011 19:59 getpicture wrote:
2 rax doesn't transition well. on small maps you can't transition to starport play that quick you'll lose to econ baneling all in, see MVP vs dimaga, or bomber vs kyrix. 2 rax is always followed by a CC, and then choice of 2 more rax or double gas + bunkers.
can't believe you still don't understand timings.
Might be viable on Shakuras where you can get the fast 3 rax wall-in with bunkers covering? Hard to see econ baneling bust dealing with that. Also, the starport doesn't have to come out immediately you have the factory down, maybe when you already have pumped out a sizable army and just waiting for the upgrades to finish?
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Okay, it's been a little while but I have a replay for the 2 Base All-in variation of this build. It's not perfect and it's also on one of the newer maps Abyssal Caverns. It works absolute wonders here with the small chokes, easy to wall off natural and short rush distances.
This was my 2nd game in over a month or so, so it may not be the best but you should get the general gist of it. Very powerful stuff here. Enjoy guys!
http://www.mediafire.com/?z5s47xoo5u378su
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Let's talk about Patch 1.4 and the infestor change.
NP is being nerfed so that massive units cannot be NPed. This means that Thors are immune!! This means that the only viable counter Zerg has against this army composition is mass Roach into Brood Lord. This simply means that you should be completely safe initiating your push with a Thor/Hellion/Marauder composition. This will simply just stomp everything on Lair tech and a addition of ghosts when you spot Hive Tech should seal the deal.
I'm excited :D
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So umm...I have a feeling I will be facing this style a lot on ladder after the ptr goes through (if it does) and was wondering, how do you not...die?
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If the np nerf goes through, should we seek to upgrade weapons, seeing as that the point not to upgrade was to reduce np'd Thor damage?
It seems getting +4/+8 air damage against blords/mutas per upgrade is very powerful, as well as hellion splash amplifying in power as well
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On September 10 2011 04:56 Cosmology wrote:
So umm...I have a feeling I will be facing this style a lot on ladder after the ptr goes through (if it does) and was wondering, how do you not...die?
Right now, it seems to me like there are two options. Mass mass banelings and Roach/Infestor.
The mass baneling strategy is a little more gimmicky but it's simply getting enough banelings out to completely roll over the deathball as cost effectively as possible. Without tanks, there's really no way to take down banelings before they connect. Follow up with mass lings should seal the deal.
Roach/Infestor would rely heavily on fungal to fight portions of the death ball at a time while slowly killing off hellions. If you are able to kill all the hellions, ling reinforcements should be able to clean up the army. This would work in the current patch as well, but it's going to be a lot harder post 1.4 because of the damage nerf.
On September 11 2011 05:37 101toss wrote:
If the np nerf goes through, should we seek to upgrade weapons, seeing as that the point not to upgrade was to reduce np'd Thor damage?
It seems getting +4/+8 air damage against blords/mutas per upgrade is very powerful, as well as hellion splash amplifying in power as well
Yeah I see no reason why not to get a second armory for attack upgrades now. It especially helps against Brood Lords. Just be sure to prioritize armor first still.
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This kind of build is just disgusting to go against if the NP nerf makes it through, if you rush for broodlords a smart terran will just push before you get them out.
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So the NP nerf got changed from being unable to NP massive units to the nerfing the range of NP from 9 to 7. This is still good news for us. Ghosts should have zero problems sniping off infestors now as they won't have to run into the front lines in order to get into range. This means less ghost deaths and more for when Brood Lords arrive. I think this style will start to persist more and be reeeeally powerful :D
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wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought....
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On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it.
true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits!
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On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits!
Problem is, it takes a really long time to get energy, so if it's lategame situation where you both have a huge income, and he keeps attacking, then you will be low on thors that have enough energy, especially with the 15 second buff for ultras.
i think it's still doable of course, especially if you can make some walls like PF/Barracks on the field to tank, but with the 15 second buff you will "need" tanks more than back then
The 15 second buff is sort of cool because now there is a little more reason to get tanks when you're going mech, which are usually better than thors, so it's like you get tank vs ultra, viking vs BL, ghost vs Infestor, though the main composition, thor hellion, still does decent vs any of the three
really great job blizzard ^-^
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On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings.
Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o
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how much of a difference does it make having a thor with 3 armor against other units? in numbers... u know.. like it takes x banelings to kill... it takes y hits from zerglings.. etc etc
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On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought....
it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself.
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On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits!
Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor.
On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o
I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up.
More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep.
On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself.
FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately....
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On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately....
About 250mm :
Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333.
So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage.
So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you.
In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory).
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On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory).
correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant...
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On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant...
You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations.
+0 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. (!!IMPORTANT!!)
+1 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades.
+2 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor.
+3 attack upgrade Thor auto attacks outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time.
So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face.
One point I'd like to make however.
Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time.
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On September 27 2011 06:13 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant... You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations. +0 attack upgrade Thors will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. ( !!IMPORTANT!!) +1 attack upgrade Thors only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades. +2 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor. +3 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time. So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face. One point I'd like to make however. Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time.
i'm pretty sure 250mm cannon strike ignores armor upgrades, and without armor on the ultras, auto attack is more dps, but with ANY armor upgrades on the ultras 250mm does more dps as it IGNORES armor upgrades... this is what i've understood from many threads
and i've also been under the impression that +attack upgrades have 0 effect on the 250mm cannon strike
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On September 27 2011 06:24 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 06:13 Synystyr wrote:On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant... You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations. +0 attack upgrade Thors will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. ( !!IMPORTANT!!) +1 attack upgrade Thors only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades. +2 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor. +3 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time. So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face. One point I'd like to make however. Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time. i'm pretty sure 250mm cannon strike ignores armor upgrades, and without armor on the ultras, auto attack is more dps, but with ANY armor upgrades on the ultras 250mm does more dps as it IGNORES armor upgrades... this is what i've understood from many threads
That's what my table is supposed to show, I'll edit it for rewording and better clarity.
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With the nerf to neural parasite range, this build is super sweet now. Also, there isn't much a zerg can do against thor/hellion/ghost late game, it's just awesome.
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On September 27 2011 06:26 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2011 06:24 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:On September 27 2011 06:13 Synystyr wrote:On September 27 2011 05:46 xTrim wrote:On September 27 2011 04:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 27 2011 00:53 Synystyr wrote:On September 25 2011 07:18 xTrim wrote:On June 30 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote:
for Ultra against thor, if you upgrade the 30 mm cannon for thor it roasts ultras... Literally decimates them, so maybe add that in, because its not an expensive upgrade especially late game and ur thors will toss them aside like fat zerglings if u have it. true.. since 250mm doesnt count armor, and u dont upgrade attack anyway, it deals with ultras quite well while surviving ultra hits! Re-read some of the comments in the thread. 250mm cannon is absolutely USELESS in TvZ. It does less DPS over the duration of the spell even with 0 attack upgrades on the Thor. On September 26 2011 02:28 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On September 25 2011 22:02 jlai wrote:OCt GSL Code S,Ro32 - Group C oGs_NaDa VS IM_NesTea http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors6/vod/66260NaDa Just did mass Thors + Hellions against Nestea but he got the wrong upgrade (Attack instead of Armor) and got rofled my mass blings. Makes me wonder why he got attack upgrades, to be honest, especially without armor upgrades. Would really like to know his reasoning o.o I was wondering why too....Nestea did the right thing though. It was a cost effective trade in the sense that Zerg traded equally. It's just a million times harder to rebuild a Thor-centric army than it is for a Zerg to get a Roach/Ling army back up. More armor would have definitely helped out more against the banelings. It definitely doesn't hurt to try and keep your thors as unclumped as possible if you suspect mass banelings as a response to your Thors. Just be sure to also micro your hellions away from the Thors to avoid losing those as well. They are still useful against mass Ling reinforcements and can kite Banelings off creep. On September 26 2011 04:35 FinestHour wrote:On September 25 2011 07:17 xTrim wrote:
wouldnt hydra infestor beat this?? just a thought.... it doesnt even come close. try it out for yourself. FinestHour is correct. Hydras don't have the durability that Roaches do, and are also light units, which make Hellions super-effective against them. Hydras have no place in TvZ unfortunately.... About 250mm : Though it is quite useless, it can help in situations. For example. If you have an upgraded Thor, and you attack 6 times, then by the time Strike Canon has lasted for 7.68 seconds, meaning that it's been shooting for 5.68 seconds out of the maximum 6, Strike Canon will have done about 473.333 damage, while 6 normal attacks would have only done 360, before [ultralisk] armor. If the ultralisk has +2 melee armor and armor upgrade, that would be 300 damage only, vs the ~473.333. So really, although the DPS about equals out by the end of strike canon, the important part is that it dishes out more damage earlier, meaning some ultralisks die faster. If you compare 10 seconds of Strike Canon, it would have done 500 damage, while attacking for 10 seconds is 7.8 attacks; let's just compare it to 8 attacks though. That's still only 400 damage. So if you look at it, you save 3-4 attacks or 2 attacks, which can be 4ish seconds or 2.5ish seconds of tanking several Ultralisk hits. In large mech battles that's quite a big difference, especially since Ultralisks are melee and you want to kill them ASAP before they reach you. In conclusion, Strike Canon actually looks quite good with this 0/3 style, since Ultralisks are the main problem vs Thor/Hellion. Given that you can get enough energy between big fights, 150/150 is a lot cheaper than 675 minerals and 625 gas (all three attack upgrades as well as 2nd armory). correct.. and even though i didnt have the numbers out, that's what i meant... You two are right. I've checked my math and indeed 250mm cannon is better than Thor auto attacks in the relevant scenarios you encounter with this build, but I will include all the situations. +0 attack upgrade Thors will ALWAYS do less damage than 250mm cannon regardless of Ultralisk armor upgrades. ( !!IMPORTANT!!) +1 attack upgrade Thors only outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have ZERO armor upgrades. +2 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons when Ultras have +4 or less armor. +3 attack upgrade Thors outdps 250MM cannons 100% of the time. So since we don't get attack upgrades until armor upgrades are completed, it is a wise choice to research 250MM cannons if faced against Ultralisks. Thor energy should be stockpiled already throughout the midgame, so you should have enough to kill the majority of the Ultralisks you face. One point I'd like to make however. Ultralisks cannot be stunned by Strike Cannons, so with proper micro, it is possible to kite your Ultralisks out of range of the Thor and cancel the spell, wasting DPS and prompting two seconds of useless animation time. However, the range of the spell is 7+4 once channeled, so it is very unlikely you'll see an Ultralisk within melee range of a Thor be able to escape in time. i'm pretty sure 250mm cannon strike ignores armor upgrades, and without armor on the ultras, auto attack is more dps, but with ANY armor upgrades on the ultras 250mm does more dps as it IGNORES armor upgrades... this is what i've understood from many threads That's what my table is supposed to show, I'll edit it for rewording and better clarity.
ahh re read it a couple times and understand now, not sure what i was thinking u meant when i read it the first time... but yea sorry about that, yea this is good information
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didn't know the part about 7+4 range, that's pretty cool :D
And yes I've been doing thor hellion ghost for FOREVER and it is FUCKING SEXY
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OP I play mech as well and this just isn't worth it in my opinion. If you are doing this JUST for the situation of thors being NPd then you might as well have 1 less thor, get ghosts, and settle for 2-2 and get 3-3 at 22-23 over 19-20.
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On September 28 2011 12:51 cydial wrote:
OP I play mech as well and this just isn't worth it in my opinion. If you are doing this JUST for the situation of thors being NPd then you might as well have 1 less thor, get ghosts, and settle for 2-2 and get 3-3 at 22-23 over 19-20.
It's not just for the NP situation. Armored mech can takes tons and tons more hits in fights especially with SCV repair. It just makes your army much more durable and units like mutas and lings only scratch yours. Ghosts are part of the build anyway, so I throw that in as soon as my economy allows it. If I can afford attack upgrades, I grab those as well so long as I'm prioritizing armor over it.
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On September 28 2011 13:06 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 12:51 cydial wrote:
OP I play mech as well and this just isn't worth it in my opinion. If you are doing this JUST for the situation of thors being NPd then you might as well have 1 less thor, get ghosts, and settle for 2-2 and get 3-3 at 22-23 over 19-20. It's not just for the NP situation. Armored mech can takes tons and tons more hits in fights especially with SCV repair. It just makes your army much more durable and units like mutas and lings only scratch yours. Ghosts are part of the build anyway, so I throw that in as soon as my economy allows it. If I can afford attack upgrades, I grab those as well so long as I'm prioritizing armor over it.
Also, Thors and Hellions really don't benefit that much from Attack upgrades. Only hellions would be effected. Since you're not getting tanks, the attack upgrades won't be of too much use in anything but a really long game. Hellions will be attacking zerglings most of the time anyways, not Roaches.
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Why the 2rax gasless FE? Wouldn't reactor hellion FE get an almost as fast expansion, faster gas, map control, and safety vs mass ling?
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On October 09 2011 14:47 Klyberess wrote:
Why the 2rax gasless FE? Wouldn't reactor hellion FE get an almost as fast expansion, faster gas, map control, and safety vs mass ling?
Even if it's the same FE timing, hellions obviously are not that good against zerg's early busts... behind a wall at your nat it is much better to have marines in bunkers rather than hellions that are already cornered for banelings to kill and can't kill roaches that well.
Also I think it's simply because 2 rax is strong and keeps the zerg from doing too greedy of an expansion, i don't think a reactor hellion FE will make hellions fast enough to punish zerg in the same way.
Though it all depends on the map I guess. Actually I think Reactor expand is faster; if so, then I guess you could call it a greedier build that gives map control but is slightly less safe... then again it depends on the map, map control can make you safer to put up bunkers etc.
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On October 09 2011 16:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2011 14:47 Klyberess wrote:
Why the 2rax gasless FE? Wouldn't reactor hellion FE get an almost as fast expansion, faster gas, map control, and safety vs mass ling? Even if it's the same FE timing, hellions obviously are not that good against zerg's early busts... behind a wall at your nat it is much better to have marines in bunkers rather than hellions that are already cornered for banelings to kill and can't kill roaches that well. Also I think it's simply because 2 rax is strong and keeps the zerg from doing too greedy of an expansion, i don't think a reactor hellion FE will make hellions fast enough to punish zerg in the same way. Though it all depends on the map I guess. Actually I think Reactor expand is faster; if so, then I guess you could call it a greedier build that gives map control but is slightly less safe... then again it depends on the map, map control can make you safer to put up bunkers etc.
I get 2base (and 1base T_T) baneling busted a lot on ladder (low master), and I never lose to it with reactor hellion fe -> 3fac mech. I never even build more than 3-4 marines ^_^. Also 3 bunkers is a huge investment, even if it's just minerals.
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wow really? kk
Then i guess the only reason to 2 rax is to try to catch him off guard. I remember bomber did a mech build on daybreak vs Z and he did a reactor hellion opening too, I guess it's better generally then.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/kCvM0.jpg)
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