EPTAlso, have you faced Destiny-style ling infestor? With the ridiculous number of infestors you can have, lings there to buffer and make EMP's hard to land, I don't know how you come out on top in most engagements. I might be totally wrong however; would love to see some decent replays of it, though.
[G] Synystyr's TvZ 0/3 Hellion/Thor Build - Page 7
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Jehct
New Zealand9115 Posts
Also, have you faced Destiny-style ling infestor? With the ridiculous number of infestors you can have, lings there to buffer and make EMP's hard to land, I don't know how you come out on top in most engagements. I might be totally wrong however; would love to see some decent replays of it, though. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
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zergrushkekeke
Australia241 Posts
There were some pretty bad choices from the zerg side of things, you give up so much map control, like creep right up to your wall permanently. In the PF game, the zerg should have either harassed your PF with air again, once there were no turrets, or taken it and the workers out with banes after fighting the army. In the broodlord infestor game it looked like you all inned when he had a big swarm of mutas, he took out one base and then didnt move them again. your army crushed him in the fight but if he had re positioned to the high ground in his main right next to your army after you took out his third things would have been much harder. I tried this build and it worked once as the zerg didn't expect it, but after that i got beat up hardcore. In the unit tester it seems to win against broodlords i need an all in ish number of SCVs along with my BF hellions and thors, and the zerg to fight on open ground, without any micro, and without any roaches. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 12 2011 23:20 mrlie3 wrote: This build is horrible against mass banelings. And when I meant mass banelings, I meant shitload of banelings, somewhat between 60 to 100! Terran has no way of spreading Thors for banelings... After cleaning out first big death ball, Terran will never have enough resources/time to build another death ball. Zerg will just continue to smash Terran with war of attrition, such as baneling blaze over third and fourth base, burrowed Roach/infestor haraassment, ling runbyes, etc. In my honest opinion, putting some siege tanks with this ball would actually be a better option if you see the Zerg opting for non-Broodlord build. The cost effectiveness of using mass Banelings against my deathball is still only going to put you slightly ahead at best. I can retreat my Hellions and save the majority with them as they are faster than speed Banes. With the amount of larva and gas you spent on that attack, your reinforcing army will be mostly comprised of Lings and Roachs. Seeing as I took little economic damage from the attack, I can reinforce with lots of Hellions and use them to split harass bases. It's not a bad idea to use mass Banelings to clean up the army, but don't ever assume that I'm out of the game after losing the main army. Hellion harass after an army trade is really, really powerful. On June 13 2011 13:34 juw wrote: I was thinking the same. The whole idea of this build depends on the following flawed strategies: * Early hidden expansion: based on your opponent not scouting and reacting, and allowing you to macro ahead. * Rushing 0/3 armour upgrades to counter NP: Thoerycraft fail. OP does not know that NP'ed units lose upgrades, and he is actually spreading false information! Armour upgrades are horrible against NP'ed Thors due to the high damage Thors do. Armour is also horrible against the obvious counter to this composition: Roaches, Fungal, Ultras. Sorry but saying "armor makes your units tougher" is not an argument to rush 0/3 upgrades. Whoa...I'm definitely not trying to spread false information. Intuitively, it makes no sense that a NPed unit would lose its upgrades. Zerg is only "borrowing" the unit and that unit should keep the upgrades it started with. I had no idea that NP does what it does now and I believe it is a bug....my reasoning is not pure theorycrafting. You are also only criticizing one of the build orders. The other two are NOT hidden CC builds, and even the first one can suffice even if the expansion is denied. I don't think getting Armor for the majority of your units is ever a bad decision. I don't see why "making your units tougher" can ever be a negative. +3 armored Thors and Hellions take minimal damage from Zerglings, Broodlings and Mutalisks, reduce a good portion of Roach and Ultra damage and protect slightly against friendly fire due to NP. I react against Fungal Growth with SCV repair and Ghost Snipe/EMP. On June 13 2011 20:37 Cibron wrote: Hi Synystyr, First off I'm a fan and I really like the way you contribute to the community! Nice format and good follow up on your OP. That being said my opinion on this build is very bipolar. I love mech and would really like to have a non-marine based macro build TvZ build but I dont think this will work because: Besides epic turret placement there is no good muta defense. Thors are too slow and your few un-upgraded marines wont be enough to stop the 15+ muta blob from destroying your base which will force you to make an all in base trade. We've all been there... No harass means zerg gets ahead in eco if he scouts what you are doing. Skipping starport is shooting yourself in the foot. You need to land your EMPs well or your hellions will get FG'd. This is ridiculously hard if burrow is researched. Upgrade stuff has already been said... I really disagree about BL being such a threat to this build. Just one more reason to get a starport since 2 vikings will save you from infinite BLs due to hellions killing broodlings. Placing starports is a useful skill toi have. Hey there! I think you have the misconception that your army needs to be all together at one time. When the Mutalisks arrive to harass, I will have my marine ball and 1-2 Thors. Simply placing a Thor in one mineral line and the marines in the rest will deal with the harass. Use reinforcing Thors to deny harassment of your builds and you're golden. To be honest, not getting a Starport is just me being stubborn as I don't see myself personally using it, even though it can only benefit. Blue flame drops are almost always guaranteed damage. Also, I don't EMP infestors, it's actually more cost effective and efficient to snipe them off and eliminate the entirety of their threat. Snipe has a really awesome range :D On June 13 2011 21:19 Jehct wrote: From the zerg perspective, the best and easiest way to counter this seems to just be ling/bane/infestor with a ton of infestors. Without tanks with attack upgrades (you need attack upgrades for tanks to stay cost-efficient against upgraded ling/bane so switching into tanks late might not work) I don't think there's any way to stop this. Well-upgraded banelings with an eco advantage are actually a great way to deal with even mass thors; if you don't have tanks there's nothing that really counters them, provided they have infestor support. Also, have you faced Destiny-style ling infestor? With the ridiculous number of infestors you can have, lings there to buffer and make EMP's hard to land, I don't know how you come out on top in most engagements. I might be totally wrong however; would love to see some decent replays of it, though. Yes, I have played against mass Infestor and my response was Ghost support. I will be adding a section to the OP detailing this...mass Snipes and EMP when needed take care Infestors so damn well. Banelings aren't bad either but I think Roaches are more cost efficient personally. On June 14 2011 12:38 Scila wrote: This gets raped in the butt by Ultralisk infestor. Also NP is such a huge pain in the ass...shouldn't be able to NP massive units period...you can't even kill the NP infestors because you're surrounded by melee units. I will upload a replay later of that exact scenario happening. You'll see just how good Ghosts are against Zerg ^.- On June 14 2011 22:17 zergrushkekeke wrote: I watched the PF replay and one other and the BL infestor one. There were some pretty bad choices from the zerg side of things, you give up so much map control, like creep right up to your wall permanently. In the PF game, the zerg should have either harassed your PF with air again, once there were no turrets, or taken it and the workers out with banes after fighting the army. In the broodlord infestor game it looked like you all inned when he had a big swarm of mutas, he took out one base and then didnt move them again. your army crushed him in the fight but if he had re positioned to the high ground in his main right next to your army after you took out his third things would have been much harder. I tried this build and it worked once as the zerg didn't expect it, but after that i got beat up hardcore. In the unit tester it seems to win against broodlords i need an all in ish number of SCVs along with my BF hellions and thors, and the zerg to fight on open ground, without any micro, and without any roaches. The PF replay was actually the first time I had ever done something like that, so it was a bit unrefined. If I had gotten turrets and and such, I would have been in an unstoppable position (mainly because close spawns are imbalanced). If you watch the replays, you can AT LEAST see how durable this army is. Even if I have to bring "all in-ish amounts of SCVs" with me, if that makes my army nearly invincible, why the hell not? Along with Ghost support, I feel confident in taking down any Zerg army with this composition. | ||
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aaycumi
England265 Posts
Adding Ghosts to the mix to me sounds ideal after watching QXC on 12 weeks with MrBitter. He was using mass Ghost with just snipe to kill the opponent going heavy hive tech, though there werent any tier 1 or 2 units. And reapers oddly seemed to weirdly fit in somewhere... my mind at least. Edit: Slowpoke on the weakness to Infestor/Roach and that's been covered so. Does not seem to be anything glarringly weak about this, except needing a quick third base for the gas too support thors and ghosts. Fine, adding it to liquipedia. However, need to rewrite the first post to cover the ghost counter to hive tech, and stop the trolls from degenerating the thread into a b***hfest. Also have the options for early harass by opening with two-rax pressure into a fast double expand, which is a real strategy! Or reactor/double factory hellion opening that is that has really picked up steam recently and Zerg has little in the way of counters, so you may wish to experiment with Hellion opener as well. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 14 2011 23:54 aaycumi wrote: Firstly I would like to say thank you for coming up with a strong counter to sling/bling/muta combo that every zerg and their cat does nowadays. Adding Ghosts to the mix to me sounds ideal after watching QXC on 12 weeks with MrBitter. He was using mass Ghost with just snipe to kill the opponent going heavy hive tech, though there werent any tier 1 or 2 units. And reapers oddly seemed to weirdly fit in somewhere... my mind at least. Edit: Slowpoke on the weakness to Infestor/Roach and that's been covered so. Does not seem to be anything glarringly weak about this, except needing a quick third base for the gas too support thors and ghosts. Fine, adding it to liquipedia. However, need to rewrite the first post to cover the ghost counter to hive tech, and stop the trolls from degenerating the thread into a b***hfest. Also have the options for early harass by opening with two-rax pressure into a fast double expand, which is a real strategy! Or reactor/double factory hellion opening that is that has really picked up steam recently and Zerg has little in the way of counters, so you may wish to experiment with Hellion opener as well. Yes, I personally consider this the counter to Muta/Ling/Bane and deals decently against Roach/Infestor or other mixes of units. Ghosts are the key once you get your 5th and 6th gas and are gearing up to push soon. Against Tier 1 and 2, the Hellion/Thor composition excels. As for the Liquipedia article, Thank you for taking the time and effort to write this up! I will update the OP soon with information regarding Ghost, their niche in this playstyle and replays to go along with it. I'll inform you as soon as that's done  I've never actually done a double factory opening in TvZ before so I can't say I know how that would play out xD. I've done in TvT however so I understand the gist of it. Reactored Hellion openings I am fond of as well so I can see what I can do with that Will play around with both and see if the early Roach response is something I can deal with while teching/expanding. | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
The only "critical upgrades" for vehicle attack in TvZ are +1 for siege tanks 1 shotting zerglings, and +2 thors two shotting mutas. Theres no siege tanks so +1 doesn't matter, only +2. (some people might argue for +3 attack for thors to 2 shot 0 armor roaches, but realistically no good zerg would ever neglect ground carapace for that long) But even then, getting armor vs Mutas is still a good choice. Going from 3 shots to 2 is a 33% increase in dps, but remember that armor tripple applies to glaive worm, and Thors start with 1 armor. So assuming you keep pace with Zerg flyer attack upgrades, glaive worm goes from 9/3/1 to 12/4/1.33 to 11/2.67/0.89 to 8/0.5/0.5 (0.5 is minimum damage). Which means total Muta damage drops from 14.56 to 9, which is about a 40% decrease in dps from Mutas. Considering that armor is also useful vs ground while attack is not, getting armor first with Thors is a no brainer. And even if your opponent decides to mass Mutas you should be happy because that will mean no infestors. Its easy as pie to crank out marines as a snap response, especially when you have already have 2 raxes from the opening and a couple reactors normally producing hellions. I think infestor/broodlord is the toughest to deal with this build. Sure you can flock your thors with hellions to combat broodlings, but that will make everything vulnerable to fungal. I'm positive that the only way to combat infestor/broodlord effectively is with ghosts, just like in bio TvZ and marine/tank TvZ. Ghosts make even more sense when paired with Thors because you're going to worry more about NP instead of FG. NP costs 100 energy to a double snipe 50 energy, which is much better than 75 FG vs 75 EMP. The only downside to double snipe is that it takes 2 actions instead of 1, but so does Neural Parasite: 1 action to NP, 1 action to target another Thor, as overkilling the nearest hellion isn't going to do much harm. And even then, because Thors have a long cooldown, if your reaction time is quick enough your opponent won't be able to get a single volley off against your armor upgraded Thors. The build already has 2 rax from the opening that you aren't using (except for marines vs mass muta or marauders vs ultras). You know your opponent will be going for infestor pit + pathogen glands + NP, so you can easily afford ghost academy + moebius reactor + cloak, and force the opponent to waste extra gas on overseers too. | ||
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userstupidname
Sweden272 Posts
Or has that been changed so they doesn't? As thus then I know what I will be doing | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 15 2011 04:44 userstupidname wrote: Does thors attack overlord over units today? Or has that been changed so they doesn't? As thus then I know what I will be doing When there are any other units around, the Thor will prioritize that over the Overlord. Air units take priority over ground units in other engagements. However, Thors still have a really annoying habit of stopping to shoot every Overlord in their path once you clear up the Zerg army, which can really slow a push down if you're not paying attention. Just keep move commanding forward with your army to avoid that, unless you want to pop every ovie on the way xD On June 15 2011 04:48 Tenks wrote: I came up with a build similar to this but stopped at 0/2. It was honestly pretty gimmicky and I just prayed my opponent didn't go Infestor/Ultra -- because if he did I lost instantly. It can be a fun build and one of those "Best of 5" things to pull out because if the Zerg doesn't expect it you can get an easy and cheap win. I don't get the same feel with this build at all. It's much more solid and I've used it multiple times in a row in a few BoX's. It's really not as gimmicky as people label it to be  | ||
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Tenks
United States3104 Posts
On June 15 2011 05:10 Synystyr wrote: I don't get the same feel with this build at all. It's much more solid and I've used it multiple times in a row in a few BoX's. It's really not as gimmicky as people label it to be I guess gimmicky isn't the best word because I have also beat quite a few masters players in a row using a very similar build. I guess I feel less in control of the outcome of the fight since very little micro is involved. Sure you can position your hellions to maximize splash damage (which is extremely important) but it always seemed to me to come down to "Can my army straight up beat his army." I disliked that style of play so I moved away from the order and composition. Also like I said the composition is extremely counterable by Infestors and since Infestor use is becoming the new standard TvZ it felt like I was catching people with their pants down far less than I was before. | ||
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aNickname
8 Posts
I have watched a few of the replays and noticed that you build some depots at your hidden third and was wondering if there is a reason for that? It seems like that just gives up free depots once your third is found. | ||
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juw
76 Posts
On June 14 2011 23:32 Synystyr wrote: Whoa...I'm definitely not trying to spread false information. Intuitively, it makes no sense that a NPed unit would lose its upgrades. Zerg is only "borrowing" the unit and that unit should keep the upgrades it started with. I had no idea that NP does what it does now and I believe it is a bug....my reasoning is not pure theorycrafting. You are also only criticizing one of the build orders. The other two are NOT hidden CC builds, and even the first one can suffice even if the expansion is denied. I don't think getting Armor for the majority of your units is ever a bad decision. I don't see why "making your units tougher" can ever be a negative. +3 armored Thors and Hellions take minimal damage from Zerglings, Broodlings and Mutalisks, reduce a good portion of Roach and Ultra damage and protect slightly against friendly fire due to NP. I react against Fungal Growth with SCV repair and Ghost Snipe/EMP. I know you werent intending to spread false information, but you do imply that attack upgrades make NP'ed thors do more damage to you. And then you falsely deduce that 0/3 counters NP, which is the premise of your build. Mind controlled units have always lost their upgrades. This applied for SC1 (Mind Control), Warcraft 3 (Possess) and SC2 (NP). So it is not a bug. - Armour upgrades are good but is it better than spending that money on army? - Hellion / Thor is a known counter to muta ling. I'm not sure if blind countering is a good idea. - Builds that say "push out at 200" is not very helpful. Turtling up to 200 is great if you can pull it off. But all you did was outline 3 turtle set ups without mentioning zerg timings. Naming it the "Synystyr build" is over the top. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 15 2011 10:49 aNickname wrote: Thanks for the build! I have watched a few of the replays and noticed that you build some depots at your hidden third and was wondering if there is a reason for that? It seems like that just gives up free depots once your third is found. That's actually just a really, really bad habit of mine xD. I don't mean to do that and I don't recommend you do it either. It's just a liability and a mistake on my part On June 15 2011 12:15 juw wrote: I know you werent intending to spread false information, but you do imply that attack upgrades make NP'ed thors do more damage to you. And then you falsely deduce that 0/3 counters NP, which is the premise of your build. Mind controlled units have always lost their upgrades. This applied for SC1 (Mind Control), Warcraft 3 (Possess) and SC2 (NP). So it is not a bug. - Armour upgrades are good but is it better than spending that money on army? - Hellion / Thor is a known counter to muta ling. I'm not sure if blind countering is a good idea. - Builds that say "push out at 200" is not very helpful. Turtling up to 200 is great if you can pull it off. But all you did was outline 3 turtle set ups without mentioning zerg timings. Naming it the "Synystyr build" is over the top. I never played SC1 or WC3 extensively, so this information wasn't available to me when I posted this. My common sense told me otherwise, so please pardon the mistake. I wasn't intentionally trying to mislead anyone. I never claimed 0/3 was a counter to NP, it simply just cushions the blow against your army, which can never hurt. Armor is always worth getting in lieu of units. Every upgrade costs less than a Thor; Level 1 Vehicle Armor 100/100 Level 2 Vehicle Armor 175/175 Level 3 Vehicle Armor 250/250 I don't play this as a blind counter style. I go into the game expecting any possible composition of units from my opponent, not just to counter Muta/Ling. It's especially awesome when my opponent does decide to play that style because I counter it so well, but it is not the reasoning behind why I use this build, just an added benefit. Generally, you can push whenever you feel like you have an advantage. Your own game sense should come into play and you should know that you can counterattack after defending a large push or something along those lines. 200/200 is merely the peak of power for your deathball so ideally, this would be when you want to push out, because the army is just that much harder to stop. | ||
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Souljah
United States423 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
On June 15 2011 12:15 juw wrote: Naming it the "Synystyr build" is over the top. He got recognition for his TvP build and honestly I probably wouldn't have read this thread if it were posted by just some guy who wanted to use Thors in this matchup. Of course if it were posted by someone like Qxc, I'd read it and call it the "Qxc build". Should we be doing different here because the person who comes up with the build doesn't have the name recognition of a Qxc or a Select? I suppose we should be calling it the "Thor Hellion build where you get 0/3 upgrades and try to hide a third after a 2-rax expand"? I think the "Synystr build" works fine. | ||
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Kraelog
Belgium194 Posts
1. Double OC expand If you can double expand early game, your economy will be stupidly strong against Zerg. A no-brainer so far. But the flipside is that Zerg can easily kill you with a number of attacks since you have zero tech and 1100 minerals invested in 2 OC. Imagine Zerg would post a strategy: "Hatch 15/ Pool 15/ Hatch 20 drone to 60 supply. If Terran for some reason becomes blind i'm so far ahead that almost any army composition will crush my opposition." Although the strategy is sound, I seriously doubt you'll have much succes on the ladder. 2. Thor/Hellion beats all There is no question that BFH/Thor with 3/3 & scv repairs is extremely strong, but there are a number of hard counters. 1. Roach/ Bling Bombs. Thor aoe is not really good against Overlords and once the BFF/Scv's explode, the Thors lose to Mass Roach with minimal micro 2. Roach/ Infestor. Fungal the ball twice and only thors are left. Since Infestors have a longer range this is very easy to do. NP with your remaining energy and crush the rest with Mass Roach. 3. Ultra/ Infestor. same as above 4. Ultra/Bling Bomb. same 5. BL/ Infestor. ultra small balls are sweet for fungals 6. BL/ Bling Bomb. same as above 3. I have Ghosts so Infestors don't matter Off course Ghosts counter Infestors, just like they counter Templar. But Protoss don't stop making templar the moment they see a ghost academy. Compared to Templar, Infestors are faster, stronger and can move underground! so it is easy from stopping ghosts emping all you infestors. Also every Ghost is 0.5 thors less, so you army becomes quite weaker. Overall the strategy is the standard pure mech against Zerg, which is strong, but has strong counters like any other strategy. | ||
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Thrombozyt
Germany1269 Posts
The biggest hole in this strategy is your wall. The way you set up your wall mean you will die to 6+ banes and mass speed lings. The bust means that a hole in your wall is created through which lings can stream in. Once they are in, you are in trouble, because they are out of range of the bunkers and in your natural mineral line. I don't know the exact timings of your build and thus it would be great if you could provide a replay of your build against 2 base baneling aggression Kyrix style. I feel that Griffith 4 OC style has the same problems for the same reason, so I wonder how you manage to overcome those problems. Nevertheless a nice guide (though I'm not convinced of the strategy). It got me started thinking about double expanding vs Zerg on the maps you pointed out (minus Tal Darim, because that's just 'hope based play' as Day[9] puts it) and maybe reviving the old Thor/hellion/marauder mix and substituting marauder with ghosts. Also: 1) I would defenitly go double armory and get attack as well as armor. While it doesn't directly change the number of hits for thors, you will always have support fire, that will help you reach those break points in the hit numbers and also it's one hit less for overlords per upgrade (9/8/7/6) and +2 is a huge break as you need 1 less hit to kill mutas. 2) Ghosts seem to be the perfect complement, as they deal with the infestor and mutas (the problem of marauder/hellion/thor) 3) Turtle to 200 is rarely a good thing against Zerg. Why not use the hellions to contest map control? | ||
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Perfect
United States322 Posts
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 15 2011 22:25 Souljah wrote: replays arent working. this sounds interesting. Are they not? I'll double check them when I get back home from work. That's not good.... On June 15 2011 22:57 Kraelog wrote: I don't think this build proposed like this is viable, since it relies on a few fundamentally flawed assumptions 1. Double OC expand If you can double expand early game, your economy will be stupidly strong against Zerg. A no-brainer so far. But the flipside is that Zerg can easily kill you with a number of attacks since you have zero tech and 1100 minerals invested in 2 OC. Imagine Zerg would post a strategy: "Hatch 15/ Pool 15/ Hatch 20 drone to 60 supply. If Terran for some reason becomes blind i'm so far ahead that almost any army composition will crush my opposition." Although the strategy is sound, I seriously doubt you'll have much succes on the ladder. 2. Thor/Hellion beats all There is no question that BFH/Thor with 3/3 & scv repairs is extremely strong, but there are a number of hard counters. 1. Roach/ Bling Bombs. Thor aoe is not really good against Overlords and once the BFF/Scv's explode, the Thors lose to Mass Roach with minimal micro 2. Roach/ Infestor. Fungal the ball twice and only thors are left. Since Infestors have a longer range this is very easy to do. NP with your remaining energy and crush the rest with Mass Roach. 3. Ultra/ Infestor. same as above 4. Ultra/Bling Bomb. same 5. BL/ Infestor. ultra small balls are sweet for fungals 6. BL/ Bling Bomb. same as above 3. I have Ghosts so Infestors don't matter Off course Ghosts counter Infestors, just like they counter Templar. But Protoss don't stop making templar the moment they see a ghost academy. Compared to Templar, Infestors are faster, stronger and can move underground! so it is easy from stopping ghosts emping all you infestors. Also every Ghost is 0.5 thors less, so you army becomes quite weaker. Overall the strategy is the standard pure mech against Zerg, which is strong, but has strong counters like any other strategy. I'm not gonna argue too much because you do have a lot of valid points but also a bunch that I have addressed in previous posts. For the most part, I feel confident enough in my macro, game sense and army composition to deal with any assortment of units, even those that are meant to "hard counter" what I have. It's not as simple as X beats Y in this case. My confidence lies in Ghosts, armored mech units and auto-repair. It makes for a deathball similar to Protoss, where it takes more than one wave of units to overcome and you can't just directly hard counter it as you like to. On June 15 2011 23:40 Thrombozyt wrote: In the beta, there was a time before the magic box maneuver. During that time, marauder/BFhellion/thor was a brutal composition. With magic box, the strategy died, because mutas could kill it. If you tried to swap out marauder with marines, the composition died to roach/infestor. The biggest hole in this strategy is your wall. The way you set up your wall mean you will die to 6+ banes and mass speed lings. The bust means that a hole in your wall is created through which lings can stream in. Once they are in, you are in trouble, because they are out of range of the bunkers and in your natural mineral line. I don't know the exact timings of your build and thus it would be great if you could provide a replay of your build against 2 base baneling aggression Kyrix style. I feel that Griffith 4 OC style has the same problems for the same reason, so I wonder how you manage to overcome those problems. Nevertheless a nice guide (though I'm not convinced of the strategy). It got me started thinking about double expanding vs Zerg on the maps you pointed out (minus Tal Darim, because that's just 'hope based play' as Day[9] puts it) and maybe reviving the old Thor/hellion/marauder mix and substituting marauder with ghosts. Also: 1) I would defenitly go double armory and get attack as well as armor. While it doesn't directly change the number of hits for thors, you will always have support fire, that will help you reach those break points in the hit numbers and also it's one hit less for overlords per upgrade (9/8/7/6) and +2 is a huge break as you need 1 less hit to kill mutas. 2) Ghosts seem to be the perfect complement, as they deal with the infestor and mutas (the problem of marauder/hellion/thor) 3) Turtle to 200 is rarely a good thing against Zerg. Why not use the hellions to contest map control? With the new light shone on the fact that NPed units lose their upgrades, I see no reason not to get upgrades but I don't think it's worth a double Armory for it, since +2 is the breaking point and would take so long to reach even with a second Armory that I would prefer an extra Ghost or something. I'm honestly just very lazy with my Hellions (not the best multitask in the world xD). There's no reason not to use them to contest map control. I just worry about Mutas or Roaches catching them off guard. I've definitely gone up against Kyrix-style baneling busts and held them off easily, the wallin is much sturdier than it looks. Unfortunately those replays were from a while ago, so I'll upload more recent ones as the situations arise. | ||
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