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On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
If you can't outmacro a Zerg with 3 OCs at that time, I really don't know what to tell you.
Disagree. If you don't make any units and pressure, zerg won't make any units either. You WILL fall behind without pressure or map control. That's why even "macro" terrans like Jinro and Top realize that you must put on pressure early on against the zerg.
It's really surprising how fast you can remax an army off of 5 factories. That's 30 supply a Thor pump. which is very affordable off of 3 bases. I really don't consider these an issue at all in my spot in Masters.
I don't disagree that it's not affordable. Question: how fast can the zerg remax when he has taken most of the map? Much faster than 30 supply every 60 seconds, I can tell you that.
Edit: I'm not saying your build isn't viable at all, I think it's a very nice and cool build. But don't have any illusions that you're actually keeping up macro with the zerg. You're relying on the fact that your thors can be cost effective against the zerg army with the timing of the armor upgrades but your economy will definitely be behind if you don't pressure at all before 200/200. Good luck!
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On June 12 2011 16:46 sadivar wrote:
thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
If my scout worker doesn't see a hatch go down at the expo, I just stay home and build a bunker behind my wall. In my experience, a 2 barracks wall with a bunker behind the supply depot stops all 1-base rushes cold. Once the rush is stopped, I play as normal, only maybe a little safer because I'm ahead economically.
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I kinda start with 3tank/4 helion/X marines push and then armory upgr and Thor's, and its working pretty well so far 10 wins in a row versus zerg, so i combain this guide +tank push one and its working soooo goood,otho im beating people from diamond/platinum so yea ;(
Most of the time at the time i push, i Expand or go all in, in both way's i win.
its really immportan to scout(with viking or helion) or scan to see what he is going tho.
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Didn't clarify in my earlier post:
On June 10 2011 20:28 Synystyr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting? What the heck is up with the aggression? If you don't like the build, so be it, but don't start bashing on other people for wanting to try something new. No one here is claiming this to be the best thing out there =S. I don't follow why NP erasing upgrades matters at all. I have 0 weapon upgrades so the Thors will always be doing minimal damage. When they shoot MY units, they encounter the 3 armor. Because I still have control over my own units, obviously I keep my armor upgrades and therefore mitigate the damage. 0/3 still works...I don't see why it has any downside at all. It's a bug and it needs to be fixed, so I will play with this in mind and not abuse anything.
The thing is, you don't want the thors to be doing minimal damage, since the weapon upgrades only apply to them when they're in YOUR control. A thor doing 9999x2 damage per attack is only going to do 30x2 damage when controlled by the infestors... hence the reasoning in the guide of completely ignoring weapon upgrades (you state you "hurt yourself more" by getting them) is wrong.
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This build is horrible against mass banelings. And when I meant mass banelings, I meant shitload of banelings, somewhat between 60 to 100! Terran has no way of spreading Thors for banelings... After cleaning out first big death ball, Terran will never have enough resources/time to build another death ball. Zerg will just continue to smash Terran with war of attrition, such as baneling blaze over third and fourth base, burrowed Roach/infestor haraassment, ling runbyes, etc.
In my honest opinion, putting some siege tanks with this ball would actually be a better option if you see the Zerg opting for non-Broodlord build.
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On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
Hey guys! I've been reading and absorbing all the feedback in this thread and want to address a few of the main points. I will try my best to go back and answer all of your individual questions that haven't been answered yet.
Thank you so much for actually reading the thread. Without losing focus on the build at hand, let me say I read and post in a few "This build is so good it'll get you LAID" threads that after the initial effort to make a guide its completely abandoned.
I appreciate you responding back and commenting on what people say almost as much as the initial effort to write a strategy for TL.
Thank you
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On June 11 2011 17:37 dezi wrote:
Nice BO and great write up. Just a question here: i currently play the normal Tank Rine Medivac style (opening with 1 Rax into Quick Factory with Reactor (at Rax to swap) and building a CC while creating my first 2 Hellions - while moving out i yet again swap Rax and Factory (Tech-Lab) to get Tanks securing my Nat after my initial poke with tanks).
Problem with this build is that positioning is very very important and can be the downfall of it. So i must likely would try to use your build but i'm very afraid of Infestors. At MLG IdrA showed how to beat this with going your more Infestors than Select had Thors. How to counter this? ^^
Ghosts. I've been playing around with them a lot more. Snipe is absolutely amazing against Infestors. I think I mentioned in a previous post, but picking up a Ghost Academy after you get your 5th and 6th gasses is a perfect timing to begin their production. I get the Moebius Reactor upgrade immediately and treat that like a Zerg would with the Infestor energy upgrade and get start Ghosts after 40 seconds of research time. Please check this thread out for a nice guide on Snipe micro. It's helped me a ton 
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155732
On June 11 2011 18:04 Daniel C wrote:
As a macro player, I tried many times going early double-expand and then turtling until 200/200, but I've found that the zerg can easily get 200/200 before you, take the whole map, and then trade armies with you (even cost-inefficiently) and still come out ahead because of his superior economy. It seems to me that the time between the early 2-rax aggression and the 200/200 is just too long. I would strongly recommend doing constant BFH harassment the whole game to keep up some semblance of map control, snipe drones, etc.
You bring up a good point. Although I've never lost against a Zerg yet through simply being outmacroed, it could absolutely happen. Possibly adding a Factory and just getting 1-2 medivacs would give me much more harass ability. I will experiment with it and see how it affects 200/200 timings. The only concerns I have are getting my drops sniped or taken down easily and being behind from that. I don't mind going toe-to-toe against a macro Zerg.
On June 12 2011 00:11 MockHamill wrote:
Ok I have tried this strat some more and I must say it is not viable. It looks good on paper but in practice it does not work. I think the biggest flaw is aiming for late game and trying to play a macro game vs Zerg.
Terran is crap late game, Zerg becomes incredible strong as soon as they are left alone, you most kill them before broodlord/ultra or it is GG.
Drops, cheese and tank push are viable against Zerg. Trying to play macro and aiming for late game is not the way to go since those are the biggest strengths of Zerg.
With the new inclusion of Ghosts, going up against Tier 3 is less of an issue. With your 200/200 army, you should ALWAYS be able to trade armies in your favor, this deathball is extremely cost efficient midgame so long as you prepared the proper composition.
On June 12 2011 02:27 Wunder wrote:Hi Synystyr
Ohai ^^
On June 12 2011 03:45 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:29 lGy wrote:
decent build for low level (bronze - plat) tvz gj Low level that don't want to micro and want to A move, yes. I do not think it will be viable, at all, at a higher level. Especially on bigger maps. Shakuras/taldarim/ cross meta, you're just boned. Not to mention, mass infestors certainly isn't the answer... Roach/infestor into infestor/sling/brood is the problem, I'd tell you. By you playing so passive, zergs can tier3 off 4 bases by easily 15-18 minutes, and have broods out.. Thors do NOT cut it vs broods, at all. Good luck getting enough ghosts out to deal with infestors AND snipe broodlords. Again -- it's WAY too passive. Double early expo, you're asking to get assraped by a losria style 3 hatch tier1 roach sling all in. Hell, any kind of roach sling bling pressure off 2 base, and I don't see a way you can stop it. All they have to do, is get you to put hellions by thors, then NP 1-2 thors, and you're absolutely fucked. Thor/hellion CANNOT deal with broodlords just by being near them. That's more of a I GOT SURPRISED GOTTA REACT QUICK reaction. It's not something I'd do all game, by any means. Just FG bait, personally. Show nested quote +Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
Aka... weren't...very....good I haven't played a zerg in AGES who didn't instantly know my third timing, and nat timing. Let alone let me double expo. Fuck expo once, and you're dead vs some of these zergs.
I disagree. Thor/Hellion has never lost against Brood Lords in my games. Have you checked out the replays or Griffith's thread on dealing with this? The 3 bunker wallin is extremely powerful as well, Thors behind that can snipe endless amounts of roaches and I have instant auto repairs as my mineral line is right there.
On June 12 2011 04:38 Devlawl wrote:
I was skeptical at first but then I watched a few replays and it blew my mind that these zerg players could not crush a Thor/hellion maxed army considering you had been so passive.
Apart from being very passive and being very vulnerable to Losira style busts while you're getting your first thors out, as iAmJeffRey mentioned, it seems to me that the immobility of this army could be abused very easily through multi-pronged harass via drops and/or nyduses or simply by counterattacking any time you move out.
Have you managed to beat zergs multiple times in a row with the same build? It seemed like in the games you showed the zergs hadn't experienced any build like yours and weren't as active in scouting thirds or harassing as they should be.
I have played against Zergs who knew I was doing this and played by denying my third immediately. When this happened, I saved my third and prepared a small army to help me safely take my it back and transition accordingly. It's a hiccup, but it's not unrecoverable. Idk, my TvZ timing understandings have always been good so I've never really run into these problems where I lose a contested base.
On June 12 2011 16:46 sadivar wrote:
thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
Those are both 1 base plays, so if you scout no expansion for an extended period of time, you must bunker the top of your ramp. With 2 barracks and repair, it should be cake to handle. 2 base rushes will be stopped by the 3 Bunker wallin.
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On June 12 2011 16:56 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
If you can't outmacro a Zerg with 3 OCs at that time, I really don't know what to tell you. Disagree. If you don't make any units and pressure, zerg won't make any units either. You WILL fall behind without pressure or map control. That's why even "macro" terrans like Jinro and Top realize that you must put on pressure early on against the zerg. Show nested quote +It's really surprising how fast you can remax an army off of 5 factories. That's 30 supply a Thor pump. which is very affordable off of 3 bases. I really don't consider these an issue at all in my spot in Masters. I don't disagree that it's not affordable. Question: how fast can the zerg remax when he has taken most of the map? Much faster than 30 supply every 60 seconds, I can tell you that. Edit: I'm not saying your build isn't viable at all, I think it's a very nice and cool build. But don't have any illusions that you're actually keeping up macro with the zerg. You're relying on the fact that your thors can be cost effective against the zerg army with the timing of the armor upgrades but your economy will definitely be behind if you don't pressure at all before 200/200. Good luck!
It's not a question of who can remax faster, but rather the quality of the army that is being remaxed. A Hellion/Marauder pump for a couple minutes will stomp a Roach remax simply because they are not cost efficient anymore after the army trades. Same with Zerglings against BF Hellions. Infestors are good, but they won't have the energy they need to NP and will also have Ghosts out to counter.
I'm not relying on my Thors to be cost effective, I simply know that they will be. They are an extremely powerful all purpose unit and will carry their weight in a battle with auto-repairs. I have also played a couple games where I take my 4th as I push and instead of pushing the nat, I snipe off other expos and cripple the Zerg economy. It's not game ending, but it does heavy, heavy damage. I personally like pushing the main though because I feel that it is a timing that I can win off of and by destroying his tech, I am able to easily secure one.
On June 12 2011 18:36 Genome852 wrote:Didn't clarify in my earlier post: Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 20:28 Synystyr wrote:On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote:On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote:
What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades.
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors.
If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting? What the heck is up with the aggression? If you don't like the build, so be it, but don't start bashing on other people for wanting to try something new. No one here is claiming this to be the best thing out there =S. I don't follow why NP erasing upgrades matters at all. I have 0 weapon upgrades so the Thors will always be doing minimal damage. When they shoot MY units, they encounter the 3 armor. Because I still have control over my own units, obviously I keep my armor upgrades and therefore mitigate the damage. 0/3 still works...I don't see why it has any downside at all. It's a bug and it needs to be fixed, so I will play with this in mind and not abuse anything. The thing is, you don't want the thors to be doing minimal damage, since the weapon upgrades only apply the them when they're in YOUR control. A thor doing 9999x2 damage per attack is only going to do 30x2 damage when controlled by the infestors... hence the reasoning in the guide of completely ignoring weapon upgrades (you state you "hurt yourself more" by getting them) is wrong.
Ahh you're right. This makes more sense. Regardless, weapon upgrades aren't worth an extra armory or priority over armor in this style, so I'll just forgo it until 0/3 is finished. Thor overkill sucks 
On June 12 2011 23:37 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 02:06 Synystyr wrote:
Hey guys! I've been reading and absorbing all the feedback in this thread and want to address a few of the main points. I will try my best to go back and answer all of your individual questions that haven't been answered yet.
Thank you so much for actually reading the thread. Without losing focus on the build at hand, let me say I read and post in a few "This build is so good it'll get you LAID" threads that after the initial effort to make a guide its completely abandoned. I appreciate you responding back and commenting on what people say almost as much as the initial effort to write a strategy for TL. Thank you
Thank you for taking your time to read and critique my work At the end of the day, I just want to try and help Terran beat Zerg and this is what I've found to work. I like this style very much, and all the feedback has allowed me to expand it and make it better! Ghosts have turned into a must in this build and I personally think once I play around with timings enough, I'll be more confident in TvZ than TvP :D
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On June 12 2011 16:46 sadivar wrote:
thanks very much for this incredible build order. I used to have real problems against zerg before this post came out. But I have a question. How do you manage to defend early rushes of zerg like Bane bust or 7 Roach?
Those are both 1 base plays, so if you scout no expansion for an extended period of time, you must bunker the top of your ramp. With 2 barracks and repair, it should be cake to handle. 2 base rushes will be stopped by the 3 Bunker wallin.
7 RR is 1 base. Sling bling bust is not 1 base, and will hit before you even have the 3 bunkers filled. Or, they can just do an econ bust later with roach/sling/bling that, with your late gas, will hit before your first thor even pops out... what with having to double gas at like what 30 you say? 30 after 2 CCs, so it's MUCH more delayed. Fuck, I bet even cut and dry you're not harassing me 2 base muta play would rock this. I had a GM zerg last night on ladder pop 10 mutas on me after harass harass harass at like 9-10 minutes.... so I don't see how you would deal with, at all, mutas just skirting your base until you have 2-3 thors to keep around.
All I'm saying is, I don't think you're playing quality zergs that are reacting well, nor are you posting anything but wins. I looked at your past game history, and there was like... no ladder. A long slew of losses which I can't assume is this build... but I just think you're theorycrafting. I hate to say it, but a lot of your points of the zerg side of the game are just way off base.
If you trade armies, and zerg has 4 base, 5-6 hatch... you WILL not be able to deal with a repop of roach/infestor/sling with just mara/hellion of that LITTLE amount of rax/facs. You won't.
And you're auto repair thors.... FG hits and you have no more SCVs. You walk in a clump, and banes from both sides hit, you have no thors OR scvs.
It's not a question of who can remax faster, but rather the quality of the army that is being remaxed. A Hellion/Marauder pump for a couple minutes will stomp a Roach remax simply because they are not cost efficient anymore after the army trades. Same with Zerglings against BF Hellions. Infestors are good, but they won't have the energy they need to NP and will also have Ghosts out to counter.
So you must have like 6 rax, to repump ghost/mara and then facs galore for hellions to even stand a chance against a quick remax. And roaches not being cost effective anymore after army trades.... really man? Popping 30 roaches and hitting will destroy any thought of you remaxing your army. Even off three base, in my mind, you will NOT have the production to make thors, hellions, marauders, medics (gotta have some medics to lift thors if battle goes wrong. If not, you should think about it. Also lets your blue flame harass more) and ghosts. That's INSANE in the amount of minerals just for ONE volley of each unit.
I'm not relying on my Thors to be cost effective, I simply know that they will be. They are an extremely powerful all purpose unit and will carry their weight in a battle with auto-repairs. I have also played a couple games where I take my 4th as I push and instead of pushing the nat, I snipe off other expos and cripple the Zerg economy. It's not game ending, but it does heavy, heavy damage. I personally like pushing the main though because I feel that it is a timing that I can win off of and by destroying his tech, I am able to easily secure one.
Again, just me. Don't go for the main. Take out the zergs money, and you take out the zerg. Having tech is nothing. By the time you kill it, he can make that ultra den at his expo, or something like that. Always go for expansions, expansions NOT in the middle of two of his bases. Never set yourself up for them to get a perfect on creep flank.
I disagree. Thor/Hellion has never lost against Brood Lords in my games. Have you checked out the replays or Griffith's thread on dealing with this? The 3 bunker wallin is extremely powerful as well, Thors behind that can snipe endless amounts of roaches and I have instant auto repairs as my mineral line is right there.
And one final point. Thor hellion will not kill broodlords, is the problem. You have no way to deal with them, outside of ghosts. You have to decide to EMP infestors, or snipe brood lords. All while the sling/roach left over army runs all over you. You just CAN'T deal with BL with thor/hellion. It's a reactionary defense for a short time. It won't work. You're clumping up. You're setting yourself up for back to back FGs to kill the hellions and let slings run in and kill you. Thors don't even piss on broodlords. It takes TOO many shots to kill them. Ever truely faced a late game 4-5 base Z going infestor/BL/corruptor/sling with attack upgrades and armor upgrades on the slings, and broodlords as well? All it takes is a few FG, a good NP, and you won't stand a chance.
I'm not trying to pick apart your build, or low ball you in any way. I'm, in my way, trying to help you understand certain things.
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Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build.
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On June 13 2011 01:33 Exley wrote:
Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build.
It's getting attention for 2 reasons.
1. The concept of the build (I want to build up a big army of thors, hellions, and ghosts and push when I'm at 200/200 and 0/3) is well-stated and is a reasonable goal. Clearly, getting a 200/200 army of thors/hellions and ghosts in a way that doesn't put you way behind is a game-ending condition if you can get it.
2. The author of the build does not cling to his particular build order as the be-all, end-all build - and when he sees responses which identify issues, he tries to develop adjustments to his build which can account for the problems identified. If you read his responses, you should identify this.
As a post which has actual content and is more than just another "[H] Need help in this matchup" thread, this post deserves the attention it's getting, and quite honestly I wish it got more.
Edit: also, as far as this being a "hidden CC build" -
On June 13 2011 00:08 Synystyr wrote:
I have played against Zergs who knew I was doing this and played by denying my third immediately. When this happened, I saved my third and prepared a small army to help me safely take my it back and transition accordingly. It's a hiccup, but it's not unrecoverable. Idk, my TvZ timing understandings have always been good so I've never really run into these problems where I lose a contested base.
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I think its getting a bit of attention because the current game suggest that a 200 T army cannot compete with a 200 Z army due to broodlods infestors and possibly ultralisks. This combined with the remaxing ability of Z means most T try to avoid the late game vs Z and instead concentrate on harassment and a mid game push with tank marines.
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On June 13 2011 05:03 rebotfc wrote:
I think its getting a bit of attention because the current game suggest that a 200 T army cannot compete with a 200 Z army due to broodlods infestors and possibly ultralisks. This combined with the remaxing ability of Z means most T try to avoid the late game vs Z and instead concentrate on harassment and a mid game push with tank marines.
It's not the fact we can't contend with them. It's that zerg can fight us on our side of the map, tank heavy with sling bling muta and waste 1/2 our army, and by the time we can tank push, very slowly mind you, they can remax up with a whole new composition, or a higher tech composition IE broodlords.
I've many times had a near 200/200 army that, through poor zerg choices, was like water hitting a rock. I lost about nothing, and kept gaining new forward positions.
It is the problem without heavy ghost numbers you cannont effectively deal with broodlord/infestor.
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I don't think its necessarily a hard and fast rule of TvZ but the main issue is that most big engagements that Terran wins are a Pyrrhic victories where 1/2 the Terran army is gone and the push has to just stop. Then zerg remaxes with the perfect army and demolishes Terran's next army. Its not so much specifically that Zerg is OP or Broodlords is OP but more that banking and the ability to horde larvae for insane instantaneous production is just hard for Terran armies to deal with.
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I view the matchup is a sort of scale - near mid game, T production is equivalent, if not a bit stronger than Z. Every mistake that T makes tips that scale more and more to Z favor, until Z production greatly outstrips what T can build.
Two reason:
1) Zerg macro mechanics (obviously)
2) Zerg mineral->gas unit.
Let me explain the second point - everyone is capped 3-1 min/gas. So that means your standing army most likely will be in that ratio, generally with gas units being somewhat more powerful than nongas units. What Z can do though is change his army comp to ALL gas units by converting lings to banelings. If you leave the Z alone when he is maxed for another 1-2m, he gets to make _that_ many banelings. So the Z army gets way stronger over time, whereas marines remain marines.
Currently, there isn't a relevant passive 200 T army that can beat an appropriate Z response.
If you max to 200 because of all the pressure and denying expos, and keeping him on 3 base, the end result is that your armies will be of similar min/gas ratio and the T army is generally superior. It's when T starts losing pushes without dealing damage, and stuff like the muta cloud gets too big, that the game is effectively over.
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On June 13 2011 01:33 Exley wrote:
Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build.
I was thinking the same. The whole idea of this build depends on the following flawed strategies:
* Early hidden expansion: based on your opponent not scouting and reacting, and allowing you to macro ahead.
* Rushing 0/3 armour upgrades to counter NP: Thoerycraft fail. OP does not know that NP'ed units lose upgrades, and he is actually spreading false information!
Synystyr wrote:
With 0/3 upgrades, when your Thors get NPed, they both take and do less damage.
Armour upgrades are horrible against NP'ed Thors due to the high damage Thors do. Armour is also horrible against the obvious counter to this composition: Roaches, Fungal, Ultras.
Sorry but saying "armor makes your units tougher" is not an argument to rush 0/3 upgrades.
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On June 13 2011 13:34 juw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2011 01:33 Exley wrote:
Very surprising how this guide is still getting so much attention when it's essentially a 'hidden cc' build. I was thinking the same. The whole idea of this build depends on the following flawed strategies: * Early hidden expansion: based on your opponent not scouting and reacting, and allowing you to macro ahead. * Rushing 0/3 armour upgrades to counter NP: Thoerycraft fail. OP does not know that NP'ed units lose upgrades, and he is actually spreading false information!Show nested quote +Synystyr wrote:
With 0/3 upgrades, when your Thors get NPed, they both take and do less damage. Armour upgrades are horrible against NP'ed Thors due to the high damage Thors do. Armour is also horrible against the obvious counter to this composition: Roaches, Fungal, Ultras. Sorry but saying "armor makes your units tougher" is not an argument to rush 0/3 upgrades.
He said you don't need the hidden third to stick around forever - in the OP he said this. In the last couple pages he reiterated it, and said that even in cases where the zerg knew he was hiding a third, it was worth it. You're not even arguing, you're either not reading what he's saying or you're reading "you don't need a hidden expo to work" and then posting "you need a hidden expo to work". How is this useful?
Yes, he did get the NP information wrong. It happens. He should fix it and I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a bunch of updates to the OP later on.
On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote:
How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting?
You don't like armor upgrades. Fine. You don't like Thor/hellion. Great. You can not like every single thing about his build and think that this is the worst build on the planet. That's ok. It makes no sense, however, that you feel you should demand that he prove to you that his composition is strictly better than whatever you're using. If you want to contribute, do it with facts and information rather than "I will argue that your composition is bad" and then never doing it.
On that note:
What zerg unit is attack upgrades useful on Thors??
Mutas? You get a ton out of armor upgrades on mutas due to the splash damage. Three points of armor reduces their attack from 8/2/0 to 5/0/0 (cutting the damage done in half).
Brood Lords? Attack upgrades are good here, assuming you need the thors to do the killing (you'd like to have ghosts do it). Armor upgrades, however, are better against broodlings than they are against zerglings at 33% per armor you're ahead. At 0/3, the broodlings are literally doing only their upgrades in damage. That seems good.
Any Ground Unit?
Thors do 60 damage at 0/0, 66 at 1/0, 72 at 2/0, and 78 at 3/0, assuming an armor of 0.
That means:
Zerglings - die in 1 shot regardless.
Banelings - die in 1 shot regardless.
Hydralisks - die in 2 shots regardless.
Roaches - die in 2 shots if its 3/x thors against 0 or 1 armor upgraded roaches (how likely is this?), die in 3 shots in every other situation.
Infestor - die in 2 shots regardless.
Ultralisk - Ultralisk have enough health that attack upgrades do less ridiculous overkill damage.
Is it, then, the existence of ultras which guarantees a person should want attack upgrades on thors??
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you can actually attack a lot earlier than 200/200...
thors really own zergs... especially at the timing when they have infestors but no neural...roaches die to thors, lings do no scratch on 0/3 thors, mutas melt like ice cream in a microwave to thors, banelings do nada to thors, ultralisks are stunned and 1-shotted by thors, oh marines pwn thors but wait zerg has no marines lol maybe infested terrans ahaha. the best counter to thors is also a very brittle counter: the broodlord. a soft counter is of-course the infestor, but it is sort of a handy-man of counters.
scv repair on thors really make this an easy win.. even with 300/300 army of roaches
1a2a3a to victory!
awesome picture by the way...it would be nice to find a way to hide tech as well...tbh...not even roach/infestor can really hold this army composition even with the ease of roach reload...and although broodlords/infestor is the ultimate direct counter to thors, a couple of ghosts directly counters this direct counter... somehow the zerg would also have to manually kill the neuraled thors or he'll still have a severe problem.
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Lol.. I remember facing you on the ladder. My IGN is 'Primo' if you remember. We played a really long game and I didn't 'deny' your third long enough but for sure delayed it. I opened spanishiwa style; went into ling infestor and then couldn't decide which tech to use. So at one point I had muta roach ling infestor. hahah! You denied my bases well, but that's just because of Tal'Darim Altars sketchy fourth bases. 
It's a really annoying build to go up against.. mainly because of the BF hellions. Scouting is quite easy because the build up of Thors are hard to miss! Great build, I can see a lot of people 'going back' to this.. as Hellion Thor used to be quite common; the upgrades are great!
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Hi Synystyr, First off I'm a fan and I really like the way you contribute to the community! Nice format and good follow up on your OP.
That being said my opinion on this build is very bipolar. I love mech and would really like to have a non-marine based macro build TvZ build but I dont think this will work because:
Besides epic turret placement there is no good muta defense. Thors are too slow and your few un-upgraded marines wont be enough to stop the 15+ muta blob from destroying your base which will force you to make an all in base trade. We've all been there...
No harass means zerg gets ahead in eco if he scouts what you are doing. Skipping starport is shooting yourself in the foot.
You need to land your EMPs well or your hellions will get FG'd. This is ridiculously hard if burrow is researched.
Upgrade stuff has already been said...
I really disagree about BL being such a threat to this build. Just one more reason to get a starport since 2 vikings will save you from infinite BLs due to hellions killing broodlings. Placing starports is a useful skill toi have.
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EPT
