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Matrijs
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:21 MageWarden wrote: To counter wouldnt adding in hydras to your roach mix be efficient because of the no tanks? In my experience, blue flame hellions absolutely demolish hydralisks, so I don't think that would work. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 10 2011 05:21 MageWarden wrote: To counter wouldnt adding in hydras to your roach mix be efficient because of the no tanks? Hydras are a light unit and melt to BF hellions ^^ On June 10 2011 05:23 Roblicious wrote: wouldnt a massive ling bling bust break this without tanks to deal.splash? bfh can only do so much right? Take a look at the wallins I created. Those will hold any of those massive ling bane busts pretty handily :D In an open field, you need to micro your hellions, but they should be more than enough for the lings. On June 10 2011 05:23 Chronald wrote: Synstyr, you are a cutie. I like the build as a whole, and its an interesting concept for Mech in TvZ. I can say that 250mm is totally useless, and really shouldn't be researched. Just a waste of income/time. This kind of build begs for some crazy pickup/drop micro with thors and hellions. Using tactical strikes of a thor and 4 hellions could really put the pain on a zerg. I'm willing to bet my co-NEU student has looked into this, but I just wanted to throw it out there. <3 always Chronald <3 On June 10 2011 05:50 jliu wrote: doesn't the fact that the 250mm is a spell/ability allow the damage to bypass the additional armor of the ultralisk? I think that a full 250mm cannon leaves an ultra with 1hp after it's done casting (6 seconds attack, 4 buffer seconds) - courtesy of liquipedia. especially if you can prevent a surround, it could be very useful if cast by thors in the center/back in combination with the higher dps of thors in front. 0-3 Thor vs a 6 armored Ultralisk still does more damage over 10 seconds auto attacking than 250mm Cannon does. It's absolutely useless in TvZ :[ | ||
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Matrijs
United States147 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:12 Synystyr wrote: 0-3 Thor vs a 6 armored Ultralisk still does more damage over 10 seconds auto attacking than 250mm Cannon does. It's absolutely useless in TvZ :[ Something I haven't tried, but just occurred to me: could you use 250mm cannons to interrupt NP and snipe infestors? Is the range sufficient to make that work? | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:15 Matrijs wrote: Something I haven't tried, but just occurred to me: could you use 250mm cannons to interrupt NP and snipe infestors? Is the range sufficient to make that work? If you can get in range, then it may be worth it. It's 7 range of cannons with 9 range of NP. The stun takes 2 seconds to set up before the units is stunned, but it stops the 15 second duration of NP very early. But, assuming Thors are in range, your bio should be as well and you should control those to focus fire, rather than rely on smart casting. | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
Also, if your initial 200/200 attack fails, do you eventually get weapon upgrades? Or do you keep it at 0? What about 250mm strike cannons? They don't do much more DPS than the thor normal attack (actually, they do less if you have weapon upgrades), but with 0 weapon upgrades they would probably be decent against ultras. And starports... are they just completely avoided even late-late game? With the amount of scans you have I could see ravens being less useful. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
Mech-wise, the only thing stronger than straight Thor/Hellion is Thor/Hellion/Banshee since you can't go straight roach->infestor to counter. Muta are just laughable with mass Thor builds so you'll be able to harass quite well with those banshees. Probably don't want to touch strike cannon against anyone who will Strike Cannon your non-NPed Thors. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
At least I tried, god I hate ZvT when facing mech play. Would some sort of 3/3 baneling, zergling work? Without siege tanks the banelings can get up close and clear all the hellions, leaving space for the zerglings to take down the thor. Maybe using infestors to lock all that into place. | ||
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naventus
United States1339 Posts
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On June 10 2011 07:00 NeonFox wrote: This is a bad build, don't use it terrans! At least I tried, god I hate ZvT when facing mech play. Would some sort of 3/3 baneling, zergling work? Without siege tanks the banelings can get up close and clear all the hellions, leaving space for the zerglings to take down the thor. Maybe using infestors to lock all that into place. Lings actually aren't that effective against a thor ball since there's very little surface area to attack. Also, the build gets mech armor upgrades very quickly. The hellions can outrun the banes as well. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
There is no zerg army comp which can kill a ball of units in a chokepoint of equal food in any matchup. All in all, against someone using this strategy, I would be very wary of the all-in push with SCVs, since if that push reaches the rally point between my hatcheries the game is over. However, if you stop a push like this, you can really get ahead of the terran because of the SCV kills. So that's what I'd be focused on as a zerg defending. As the terran attacking, I would focus on perfect army positioning, since the only way the zerg can kill you is if you are running from one chokepoint to another, and you can probably auto win any base trade. | ||
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Indrium
United States2236 Posts
That was you that killed me with this? T_T Nice writeup! It hurts me. I hope I'm not in the replay section, I got rolled lol. | ||
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pikaaarrr :3
United States593 Posts
 (Suggestions? | ||
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juw
76 Posts
I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors. If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
Which should you want the Zerg to do more; Fungal, or NP? For example, if you try to snipe his Infestors with your Hellions (or rather, charge in with them), and he Fungals them, is that worth not getting NP'd as much? So which is better for you, if he NPs less or Fungals less? (what if he fungals your Thors instead of NP?) | ||
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Genome852
United States979 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote: What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades. I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors. If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. Just did a test, this is correct. NP units still display weapon/armor upgrades but they don't actually come into effect, as the game tries to overwrite the unit's upgrades with your own. This means NP'd Terran and Protoss units will have no upgrades unless you have T and P upgrades somehow (such as by controlling a worker and building a base of another race). So you should get weapon upgrades as well. I made a bug report thread on this: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2657515883 | ||
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Natsumar
United States91 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:13 juw wrote: What's with all the replies in this thread? This is just a mech build with resources wasted on armor upgrades. I am pretty sure NP units lose their upgrades, which means the whole point of this build is not even valid. There is no "friendly fire damage" either because your units do not auto target the NPed Thors. If z sees you massing thors, they will be getting roaches before tier 3, and in that case, there is no reason to get armour over weapons. I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. I was thinking that a rush to broodlords would crush it easily, but then I saw Griffith's guide on how to micro hellion/thor and was absolutely stumped. The best I can come up with is just mass upgraded baneling drops to kill the hellions as fast as possible so upgraded speedlings/cracklings can come in and clean up. Pure theorycrafting here, but thor's are pretty bad against armored air units (overlords) so even if the hellions are microed away to avoid the baneling drops, the lings still have plenty of time to clean up before the overlords are killed. It would work even better if the Zerg had infestors to fungal the hellions in place and you were especially marauder heavy with few marines to help kill the overlords. Have you faced this counter strategy in game? I'm interested as to what your answer would be. | ||
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juw
76 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote: I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just WOW at any guide that has pretty formatting? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10382 Posts
Are you trolling? There is "friendly fire" because the NP'd Thors will attack non-NP'd Thors. Armor still helps even if they mass roach. How do those even relate? Armor upgrades DOES WORK. It's very efficient. Biomech in general is very very great especially on certain maps, and the flexibility it gives you is amazing. This build is mostly mech and so is a Mech build, but if you go with a more Bio composition like MMA did against Losira in the last set in MLG Columbus, you can have a lot of success too not just Bio or Mech. But the Marauders and Marines really help against Roaches and Mutas because Mech tends to overkill and you will need to use your first 2 Rax anyways; the Bio isn't a waste because of that. | ||
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Natsumar
United States91 Posts
On June 10 2011 13:45 juw wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 10 2011 13:40 Natsumar wrote: I believe the reason for the armor upgrades are so that neural parasited units do a very small amount of damage to non-parasited units because the Terran's units have maxed out armor and the Zerg controlled units have no attack upgrades. This composition looks absolutely sick. If you read my post, you will know that the whole point of using armour upgrades to soft counter NP DOES NOT WORK. How exactly is this composition absolutely sick? It is hellion thor with marine marauders, which I will argue is very inefficient. Do people here just wow at any guide that is written and formatted well? Not sure where the aggression is coming from, but alright. I did look at your post, and the one confirming it by Genome852, but from what I can see (and I may be wrong here) is that the NP thors would be 0/0 while the non-NPed units would keep their 0/3, hence taking less damage. And the reason this guide 'wows' me is because I enjoy facing new strategies and challenging situations and this seems to be incredibly solid. As a diamond zerg player I normally enjoy facing mech because mass roach/infestor just destroys it, but the interesting twists in this one make mass roach/infestor not as viable anymore. I'm just excited to see hopefully viable Terran strategies beyond marine/tank. | ||
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edc
United States666 Posts
Also, did you get your name from the guitarist of A7X? | ||
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