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On April 27 2011 00:21 Crabman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 23:46 Kipsate wrote:
Try explaining the casual audience that vultures do not counter dragoons due to the fact that they deal concussive damage yet Dragoons are large, but that vultures can take off the shields of dragoons easily, which takes 100% full damage from concussive damage, and due to patrol micro they can moving shot to reduce the damage they take.
Try explaining that to a casual as a commentator so that he understands.
Easy for you?Well yeah, you follow the game and you know how it works, you are not the casual audience, you are the hardcore gamer. what works better is, Ball A is engaging ball B.
The whole shield/massive/large/small was taken out in favor of armored and light, which is easier to understand. I can explain that to a casual easily. Everything is summed up by saying 'Vultures suck vs dragoons'. The casual spectator does not really need to be aware of anything else you mentioned. All the casual audience will see if a fast unit and the micro you can do to kill a infinite number of (insert melee unit here).
Your explanation both lack information
- Vulture still deal full damage vs Dragoon (20) until their shields are depleted.
and is slightly on the wrong side
- Vulture doesnt entirely suck vs Dragoon 100% of the time.. Depleting Shields + spider-mining + low dragoon count can be pretty effective.
Can be pretty bad as the official commentator if after your "Vultures suck vs Dragoons" all we see are blue goo 
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On April 27 2011 00:08 maybenexttime wrote:
Unfortunately, I think SC2 took away from BW way more players than it can possibly bring in.
I'm just trying to work with what I have and trying not to lose hope. If SC2 sparks enough interest in BW and happens to fail, BW will be what the players are going to fall back on.
Even if SC2 converts one new BW player, it will be a victory at this point. Not that SC2 is a bad game, but it's not BW. Perhaps I'm naive thinking that, but I'd rather be naive than give up all hope for BW outside Korea.
SC2 failing is very unlikely and has a lot of other severe implications for e-sports outside Korea, but like I said before: There's always a silver lining.
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On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No.
Nope, those aren't the things that make BW better, the units do, the micro, and non-ballvball gameplay. I've played several hundred SC2 ladder games, and honestly, I'd only play SC2 melee to feel good about myself. I play BW to be competitive.
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On April 27 2011 00:37 FrozenSolid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 00:08 maybenexttime wrote:
Unfortunately, I think SC2 took away from BW way more players than it can possibly bring in. I'm just trying to work with what I have and trying not to lose hope. If SC2 sparks enough interest in BW and happens to fail, BW will be what the players are going to fall back on. Even if SC2 converts one new BW player, it will be a victory at this point. Not that SC2 is a bad game, but it's not BW. Perhaps I'm naive thinking that, but I'd rather be naive than give up all hope for BW outside Korea. SC2 failing is very unlikely and has a lot of other severe implications for e-sports outside Korea, but like I said before: There's always a silver lining.
Yes, better to hold out hope for BW 
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The issue with SC2 is that ppl take it too seriously, just because it has the name "Starcraft" in its title. When it was released I didn't see it as the successor to SC1. I saw it as "just another RTS" game, and I quickly wrote it off because it didn't interest me, similarly to how RA3 didn't interest me.
People who didn't play BW are drawn in by the hype. OMG! BW is an esport in Korea! Let's make this game into a world-wide esport! And 100% of the BW players who switched over did so because they listened to the hype and saw a new opportunity to earn some fame and cash. All the BW players who switched over were has-been's or never-been's. Is there even a single former Iccup A- rank or better player who thinks SC2 is a better game? I highly doubt that. Even before the beta was released, people took for granted that SC2 would be an esports, before anyone had even played the game. Think about that for a while! And that's the reason why the SC2 pro scene is so ridiculous today. The whole thing is forced. Blizzard are promoting it only because they want to earn money, and the players are supporting it for the money and fame rather than love for the game, although I guess for a lot of players it's the only thing they know, so in their eyes it could be a great game, since they can't really look at SC2 objectively.
I don't know how many times I've read "But SC2 will be awesome in a few years after the new expansions and patches". Well, that doesn't justify having a pro scene today, with a sucky game. Why don't we just wait and see how the expansions pan out, and then we can think about a pro scene if the game is good enough.
The SC2 pro scene was created entirely on hype, so what will happen when the hype dies out?
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On April 27 2011 00:37 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 00:21 Crabman123 wrote:On April 26 2011 23:46 Kipsate wrote:
Try explaining the casual audience that vultures do not counter dragoons due to the fact that they deal concussive damage yet Dragoons are large, but that vultures can take off the shields of dragoons easily, which takes 100% full damage from concussive damage, and due to patrol micro they can moving shot to reduce the damage they take.
Try explaining that to a casual as a commentator so that he understands.
Easy for you?Well yeah, you follow the game and you know how it works, you are not the casual audience, you are the hardcore gamer. what works better is, Ball A is engaging ball B.
The whole shield/massive/large/small was taken out in favor of armored and light, which is easier to understand. I can explain that to a casual easily. Everything is summed up by saying 'Vultures suck vs dragoons'. The casual spectator does not really need to be aware of anything else you mentioned. All the casual audience will see if a fast unit and the micro you can do to kill a infinite number of (insert melee unit here). Your explanation both lack information - Vulture still deal full damage vs Dragoon (20) until their shields are depleted. and is slightly on the wrong side - Vulture doesnt entirely suck vs Dragoon 100% of the time.. Depleting Shields + spider-mining + low dragoon count can be pretty effective. Can be pretty bad as the official commentator if after your "Vultures suck vs Dragoons" all we see are blue goo
Holy shit vultures do full damage to the shields of dragoons...omfg where have I been living. Im a fucking idiot.
And thats the thing, vultures and dragoons can duke it out because they dont hard counter each other. With micro, either can win to a certain extent. Same with marines vs lurkers etc. Its fuckin awesome to watch (flash vs. bisu WCG anyone ? :D)
god im an idiot...i played zerg but still...
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On April 26 2011 23:46 Kipsate wrote:
Try explaining the casual audience that vultures do not counter dragoons due to the fact that they deal concussive damage yet Dragoons are large, but that vultures can take off the shields of dragoons easily, which takes 100% full damage from concussive damage, and due to patrol micro they can moving shot to reduce the damage they take.
Try explaining that to a casual as a commentator so that he understands.
Easy for you?Well yeah, you follow the game and you know how it works, you are not the casual audience, you are the hardcore gamer. what works better is, Ball A is engaging ball B.
The whole shield/massive/large/small was taken out in favor of armored and light, which is easier to understand.
The better explanation is that the vulture's weapon sucks against dragoons, but you can attempt to plant mines near dragoons to beat them. So the protoss player attempts to move out of range of the mines while still shooting at the vultures, while the terran player tries to trap the dragoons with his mines. That is certainly a lot better than hellions get hard countered by stalkers so you build marauders to hard counter stalkers.
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On April 27 2011 00:53 ninini wrote:
The issue with SC2 is that ppl take it too seriously, just because it has the name "Starcraft" in its title. When it was released I didn't see it as the successor to SC1. I saw it as "just another RTS" game, and I quickly wrote it off because it didn't interest me, similarly to how RA3 didn't interest me.
People who didn't play BW are drawn in by the hype. OMG! BW is an esport in Korea! Let's make this game into a world-wide esport! And 100% of the BW players who switched over did so because they listened to the hype and saw a new opportunity to earn some fame and cash. All the BW players who switched over were has-been's or never-been's. Is there even a single former Iccup A- rank or better player who thinks SC2 is a better game? I highly doubt that. Even before the beta was released, people took for granted that SC2 would be an esports, before anyone had even played the game. Think about that for a while! And that's the reason why the SC2 pro scene is so ridiculous today. The whole thing is forced. Blizzard are promoting it only because they want to earn money, and the players are supporting it for the money and fame rather than love for the game, although I guess for a lot of players it's the only thing they know, so in their eyes it could be a great game, since they can't really look at SC2 objectively.
I don't know how many times I've read "But SC2 will be awesome in a few years after the new expansions and patches". Well, that doesn't justify having a pro scene today, with a sucky game. Why don't we just wait and see how the expansions pan out, and then we can think about a pro scene if the game is good enough.
The SC2 pro scene was created entirely on hype, so what will happen when the hype dies out?
While it's true that a lot of the hype was created even before the game was released, and that the competitive players switched over in search of a more popular game (and thus a higher chance of being able to go pro), SC2 did manage to catch the eye of players from nearly every RTS, even those who used to not like BW. The game was designed to be as appealing as possible, so this was to be expected. When lots of people started supporting the game, sponsors took note of both the name and the interest. With all the money that's in SC2 so far, trust me, the players are looking at SC2 very objectively.
The idea of what's fun and what's not is very subjective. Perhaps the pros like the new gameplay for variety's sake. If they absolutely hated SC2, they wouldn't play it. E-sports isn't exactly the most stable industry to work in, the pros have to like playing the game or else they could never find the means to innovate, learn and get better. The SC2 pro scene isn't just hype at this point, it's real.
There's a fomos article here that claims that JulyZerg thinks SC2 is "perhaps even more fun than Broodwar. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant; what matter is that he thinks SC2 is a fun game, even if it's not the "most fun" game. Granted, July wasn't doing so well near the end of his SC:BW career and perhaps he was looking at playing SC2 as a means to remain a competitive top player, but he is still a big part of Broodwar's history, and his words can influence many. As much as we prefer BW over SC2, we have to accept that our opinion is in the minority.
SC2 isn't a bad game objectively. Top players are rising in the SC2 scene, and there aren't huge fluctuations in results between bad and good players. Given time, people will figure out the current metagame and leaders will emerge, but this will take a long time (Patching the game frequently actually is detrimental to this, since it discourages refining strategies if they're just going to get nerfed next patch). The professional scene will have consistency and SC2 has everything it needs to be an e-sport. The gameplay itself won't change. SC2 is what it is, and it won't become BW, ever. The difficulty at the top wont come from the challenges in macro and micro, but from other concepts, like mind games, knowledge of game states and periods where your build is strong and your opponent's is weak, and other such things.
SC2 is not what we want, but rather it's what we get. It's not perfect, but we have to make do with what we have. Looking at it, I feel it's the best alternative to Broodwar with potential of going big. Then again, few foreign BW players still have hopes of going pro, but if SC2 is successful it may reinvigorate the e-sports scene in the west, and BW may yet have a chance. To be frank, I think that's the only chance BW has of becoming popular outside Korea. We've already exhausted all other options.
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1019 Posts
hundreds of patches my arse, thanks for the good laugh.
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On April 27 2011 01:39 FrozenSolid wrote:
SC2 is not what we want, but rather it's what we get.
I dont know how others feel, but i personally think that despite all ur proclamation of love for BW, you are just trying to shove SC2 into people face all the same, just in a rather roundabout way.
If SC2 is not what i want, then i cant care less about it. I dont have to "get" it or anything.
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On April 27 2011 02:07 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 01:39 FrozenSolid wrote:
SC2 is not what we want, but rather it's what we get.
I dont know how others feel, but i personally think that despite all ur proclamation of love for BW, you are just trying to shove SC2 into people face all the same, just in a rather roundabout way. If SC2 is not what i want, then i cant care less about it. I dont have to "get" it or anything.
I like his post. It's a top down view of the situation. It can't be denied SC2 is currently very big in the west. Overhyped or not (I feel it's extremely overhyped, but that's me), SC2 does not yet show signs of declining. We should hope that SC2 will bring awareness to BW instead of moping about wishing SC2 didn't exist, and should die immediately. Western BW was already half dead before SC2, SC2 could bring new blood, which we really need. SC2 is here to stay, we should instead focus on taking advantage of SC2's popularity to bring new people into BW.
TL;DR: we can't hide in our shell forever and wait for SC2 to fail, because there's no guarantee that will happen.
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On April 27 2011 02:07 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 01:39 FrozenSolid wrote:
SC2 is not what we want, but rather it's what we get.
I dont know how others feel, but i personally think that despite all ur proclamation of love for BW, you are just trying to shove SC2 into people face all the same, just in a rather roundabout way. If SC2 is not what i want, then i cant care less about it. I dont have to "get" it or anything.
I made the same claim a few posts back. If people don't like SC2, there is nothing that forces you to play it or be involved with it in any way. We are in agreement. Still, TL is a shared community and being here means having to occasionally deal with people who play SC2, which is what I was referring to. You can't escape that in TL.
You quote my statements out of context to draw conclusions that aren't real. I wish you'd stop.
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Ok who's waiting for SC2 to fail though just by not caring either way? I think i speak for most of us when i say we are fine playing and watching BW. Why do we have to constantly have people in the BW section of the site discussing this; This whole thread shouldn't even be here, Dustin Browder is totally irrelevant to this section of the site. There's no discussion to be had here, just the same tired points. The reasons why we don't like the game as much has been explained in tons of posts and theres no more to say on the matter, because all it generates is tons of really defensive posts by SC2 fans.
Btw i thought one post in particular was pretty funny, "I guess you also think not getting an "Your forces are under attack" announcement when a DT kills all your drones is good as well for some reason.". Yeah as a matter of fact i think it is good.. why should the game alert you to everything that's going on? It's supposed to be a sneaky harassment unit. This is totally a matter of opinion, it's not simply an improvement just because you say it is. Same with some of the other 'improvements'.
I also liked Chef's post about how nobody was spending their time on forums re-assuring each other to 'wait for the expansions' back in 1998. Things have changed so much. It all feels very forced in direction, the whole assumption it will be a sport. It's a good thing we didn't have an overly pro-active Blizzard taking a knife to the game every month to try and fix the balance at every possible level.
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On April 27 2011 02:55 infinity2k9 wrote:
Btw i thought one post in particular was pretty funny, "I guess you also think not getting an "Your forces are under attack" announcement when a DT kills all your drones is good as well for some reason.". Yeah as a matter of fact i think it is good.. why should the game alert you to everything that's going on? It's supposed to be a sneaky harassment unit.
When something is killed instantly, it doesn't have time to raise an alarm. :D
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I might be missing the point about the dt arguement that someone made but as my icon is a dt i feel compelled to say at least this. Why no alert when a dt kills a probe or scv? Well when a ninja comes up and 1shots you in the fucking jugular how are you gonna warn your friends? GG
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On April 27 2011 01:39 FrozenSolid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 00:53 ninini wrote:
The issue with SC2 is that ppl take it too seriously, just because it has the name "Starcraft" in its title. When it was released I didn't see it as the successor to SC1. I saw it as "just another RTS" game, and I quickly wrote it off because it didn't interest me, similarly to how RA3 didn't interest me.
People who didn't play BW are drawn in by the hype. OMG! BW is an esport in Korea! Let's make this game into a world-wide esport! And 100% of the BW players who switched over did so because they listened to the hype and saw a new opportunity to earn some fame and cash. All the BW players who switched over were has-been's or never-been's. Is there even a single former Iccup A- rank or better player who thinks SC2 is a better game? I highly doubt that. Even before the beta was released, people took for granted that SC2 would be an esports, before anyone had even played the game. Think about that for a while! And that's the reason why the SC2 pro scene is so ridiculous today. The whole thing is forced. Blizzard are promoting it only because they want to earn money, and the players are supporting it for the money and fame rather than love for the game, although I guess for a lot of players it's the only thing they know, so in their eyes it could be a great game, since they can't really look at SC2 objectively.
I don't know how many times I've read "But SC2 will be awesome in a few years after the new expansions and patches". Well, that doesn't justify having a pro scene today, with a sucky game. Why don't we just wait and see how the expansions pan out, and then we can think about a pro scene if the game is good enough.
The SC2 pro scene was created entirely on hype, so what will happen when the hype dies out? While it's true that a lot of the hype was created even before the game was released, and that the competitive players switched over in search of a more popular game (and thus a higher chance of being able to go pro), SC2 did manage to catch the eye of players from nearly every RTS, even those who used to not like BW. The game was designed to be as appealing as possible, so this was to be expected. When lots of people started supporting the game, sponsors took note of both the name and the interest. With all the money that's in SC2 so far, trust me, the players are looking at SC2 very objectively. The idea of what's fun and what's not is very subjective. Perhaps the pros like the new gameplay for variety's sake. If they absolutely hated SC2, they wouldn't play it. E-sports isn't exactly the most stable industry to work in, the pros have to like playing the game or else they could never find the means to innovate, learn and get better. The SC2 pro scene isn't just hype at this point, it's real. There's a fomos article here that claims that JulyZerg thinks SC2 is "perhaps even more fun than Broodwar. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant; what matter is that he thinks SC2 is a fun game, even if it's not the "most fun" game. Granted, July wasn't doing so well near the end of his SC:BW career and perhaps he was looking at playing SC2 as a means to remain a competitive top player, but he is still a big part of Broodwar's history, and his words can influence many. As much as we prefer BW over SC2, we have to accept that our opinion is in the minority. SC2 isn't a bad game objectively. Top players are rising in the SC2 scene, and there aren't huge fluctuations in results between bad and good players. Given time, people will figure out the current metagame and leaders will emerge, but this will take a long time (Patching the game frequently actually is detrimental to this, since it discourages refining strategies if they're just going to get nerfed next patch). The professional scene will have consistency and SC2 has everything it needs to be an e-sport. The gameplay itself won't change. SC2 is what it is, and it won't become BW, ever. The difficulty at the top wont come from the challenges in macro and micro, but from other concepts, like mind games, knowledge of game states and periods where your build is strong and your opponent's is weak, and other such things. SC2 is not what we want, but rather it's what we get. It's not perfect, but we have to make do with what we have. Looking at it, I feel it's the best alternative to Broodwar with potential of going big. Then again, few foreign BW players still have hopes of going pro, but if SC2 is successful it may reinvigorate the e-sports scene in the west, and BW may yet have a chance. To be frank, I think that's the only chance BW has of becoming popular outside Korea. We've already exhausted all other options.
That last paragraph summarizes the big divide between the BW and the SC2 community. SC2 copied many things from its predecessor from 200/200 max supply, SCVs, drones, probes, etc. but somehow the micro mechanics like moving shot and muta stacking are anathema to SC2's gameplay? Why should we settle for less? The game, as it stands now, isn't as deep as BW nor will it ever be unless the direction of the game design is changed. Blizzard has succeeded in making the game easier to learn but they dropped the ball on making it harder to master.
Please keep in mind that there were also tournaments and a foreign scene in the early days of SC/BW. Do you remember when Blizzard had their own Bnet tournaments or when PGL1/2 were won by Crexis and D22-sosowac? Just because casual players are still interested in SC2 at the moment doesn't mean that they will continue on for long. It is still in its shiny phase.
I think you overestimate how much the BW community cares about the foreigner scene. Most of us have become comfortable cheering for Koreans and have grown appreciative of the quirks of Korean culture and society. I, for one, don't really care for the novelty of seeing white people play the game.
I really don't think that SC2 has any chance to tap into its potential until after at least a year or two after Legacy of the Void, when casuals have mostly left the game for the next shiny game and Blizzard has nobody to cater to except the remaining hardcore players. Frankly, a huge portion of BW's success was how new and unsophisticated the scene was back then. BW's last balance patch came just a few days after Boxer's first OSL win. The scene was able to evolve and discover new tricks without Blizzard patching them out of the game.
The reason many BW veterans are up in arms is because we've seen it before. Blizzard balanced Warcraft 3 with an iron fist, just like they are doing with SC2. They were quick to remove any tricks and counters that players did that they did not design nor think of first. They balanced the game around hard counters. They were quick to remove any perceived "imbalances", even those that only existed at low levels of play or those only affecting 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4. The game was more successful than BW outside of Korea but never really took off and had a scene as good as BW in Korea was.
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On April 26 2011 23:46 Kipsate wrote:
Try explaining the casual audience that vultures do not counter dragoons due to the fact that they deal concussive damage yet Dragoons are large, but that vultures can take off the shields of dragoons easily, which takes 100% full damage from concussive damage, and due to patrol micro they can moving shot to reduce the damage they take.
Try explaining that to a casual as a commentator so that he understands.
Easy for you?Well yeah, you follow the game and you know how it works, you are not the casual audience, you are the hardcore gamer. what works better is, Ball A is engaging ball B.
The whole shield/massive/large/small was taken out in favor of armored and light, which is easier to understand.
You don't need to explain anything to the casual audience.
The casual audience of basketball doesn't understand how plays are run. The majority of casual basketball players have absolutely horrible off-ball movement and don't understand why Rip Hamilton and Reggie Miller are great at what they do.
But basketball has a gigantic following worldwide and most people know few mechanics aside from fouls, scoring, and traveling.
I don't understand why designers take a look from the top-down and conclude that things are too hard and that by taking them out, they appeal to casuals. When I played casual 3v3 BGH games in BW, no one ever muta microed, hardly anyone did patrol micro or had tight build orders, and it didn't affect us in the least.
I thought Smash Bros Brawl was the same thing. They took out all the high level techniques from Melee, but as far as I know, people who played casually didn't give a damn about wave dashing or L-cancelling and they never mixed with the competitive players anyway, so I don't know why it makes it easier for casuals because they're a completely separate scene.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On April 27 2011 00:56 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 00:37 ffreakk wrote:On April 27 2011 00:21 Crabman123 wrote:On April 26 2011 23:46 Kipsate wrote:
Try explaining the casual audience that vultures do not counter dragoons due to the fact that they deal concussive damage yet Dragoons are large, but that vultures can take off the shields of dragoons easily, which takes 100% full damage from concussive damage, and due to patrol micro they can moving shot to reduce the damage they take.
Try explaining that to a casual as a commentator so that he understands.
Easy for you?Well yeah, you follow the game and you know how it works, you are not the casual audience, you are the hardcore gamer. what works better is, Ball A is engaging ball B.
The whole shield/massive/large/small was taken out in favor of armored and light, which is easier to understand. I can explain that to a casual easily. Everything is summed up by saying 'Vultures suck vs dragoons'. The casual spectator does not really need to be aware of anything else you mentioned. All the casual audience will see if a fast unit and the micro you can do to kill a infinite number of (insert melee unit here). Your explanation both lack information - Vulture still deal full damage vs Dragoon (20) until their shields are depleted. and is slightly on the wrong side - Vulture doesnt entirely suck vs Dragoon 100% of the time.. Depleting Shields + spider-mining + low dragoon count can be pretty effective. Can be pretty bad as the official commentator if after your "Vultures suck vs Dragoons" all we see are blue goo Holy shit vultures do full damage to the shields of dragoons...omfg where have I been living. Im a fucking idiot. And thats the thing, vultures and dragoons can duke it out because they dont hard counter each other. With micro, either can win to a certain extent. Same with marines vs lurkers etc. Its fuckin awesome to watch (flash vs. bisu WCG anyone ? :D) god im an idiot...i played zerg but still...
Its not just vultures, shields take full damage from any attack, even Siege tanks do 100% their max damage against zealot shields until the shields are depleted and the ''small'' unit typ kicks in.
Perhaps you all are right about what I said though, my bad, still you can't deny that it is hard to understand for a casual audience especially when vultures suddenly destroy dragoons.
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Starcraft2 is a new game, just like Warcraft3 back to 2003, its a good game with better graphic but nothing special. What happens to Starcraft2 when Warcraft4 is released? No doubt then all players will switch to Warcraft4.
Moreover Starcraft2 is not even nearly balanced, yeah yeah, there will be tons of patches incoming, but I doubt if it will fix the real problem. Warcraft3 is still imba after 9 years.
Im too lazy to mention all problem SC2 got right now, it must be said over 9000 times already on this forum anyways.
TLDR: Starcraft2 is a good game, but it still have alot works to do to make it legendary like broodwar.
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Anyone know what Dustin Browder's username is?
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EPT
