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lungo
Denmark276 Posts
with an very established rts community, pros all over crawing to play sc2, i think blizzard made a bad job making this sc2.. its allmost at the stage i wouldnt even call it starcraft, its a disgrace to broodwar. anyway, i just keep watching msl and osl instead... | ||
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FrozenSolid
Finland134 Posts
On April 27 2011 06:21 andrewlt wrote: That last paragraph summarizes the big divide between the BW and the SC2 community. SC2 copied many things from its predecessor from 200/200 max supply, SCVs, drones, probes, etc. but somehow the micro mechanics like moving shot and muta stacking are anathema to SC2's gameplay? Why should we settle for less? The game, as it stands now, isn't as deep as BW nor will it ever be unless the direction of the game design is changed. Blizzard has succeeded in making the game easier to learn but they dropped the ball on making it harder to master. Please keep in mind that there were also tournaments and a foreign scene in the early days of SC/BW. Do you remember when Blizzard had their own Bnet tournaments or when PGL1/2 were won by Crexis and D22-sosowac? Just because casual players are still interested in SC2 at the moment doesn't mean that they will continue on for long. It is still in its shiny phase. I think you overestimate how much the BW community cares about the foreigner scene. Most of us have become comfortable cheering for Koreans and have grown appreciative of the quirks of Korean culture and society. I, for one, don't really care for the novelty of seeing white people play the game. I really don't think that SC2 has any chance to tap into its potential until after at least a year or two after Legacy of the Void, when casuals have mostly left the game for the next shiny game and Blizzard has nobody to cater to except the remaining hardcore players. Frankly, a huge portion of BW's success was how new and unsophisticated the scene was back then. BW's last balance patch came just a few days after Boxer's first OSL win. The scene was able to evolve and discover new tricks without Blizzard patching them out of the game. The reason many BW veterans are up in arms is because we've seen it before. Blizzard balanced Warcraft 3 with an iron fist, just like they are doing with SC2. They were quick to remove any tricks and counters that players did that they did not design nor think of first. They balanced the game around hard counters. They were quick to remove any perceived "imbalances", even those that only existed at low levels of play or those only affecting 2v2, 3v3 or 4v4. The game was more successful than BW outside of Korea but never really took off and had a scene as good as BW in Korea was. My point isn't that BW players should transition to SC2, far from it. Forcing someone to play a certain game over another game they like better is stupid, and quite frankly impossible. I personally don't care what game a specific person on the internet wants to play. I'm never going to go pro or even anything resembling it in BW or in any game for that matter. I don't have the skill, time or dedication necessary, but the professionals do and that is part of why I find the BW pro-scene so interesting. The last paragraph of the quoted post is less about SC2 as a game and more about SC2 as a community becoming popular. The SC2 community is much closer to BW than say, the C&C: RA 3 community. SC2 is the only game that is similar enough to BW while still being accepted by the mainstream even if only by name (though there are other similarities), so it also represents Broodwar's last hope for a renewed foreign scene. If there's a SC3 in the future, it will not be relevant to BW in any shape, way or form. The entire point of every post I've written in this topic is that despite how we as a community feel about SC2 as a game, we should pay close attention to it and the community surrounding it. Not because the game is made by Blizzard or because of anything gameplay-related in it, but rather because SC2 is where new foreign BW players are primarily going to come from and not from any other game. When we reach a point where we don't want or care about attracting new people to our community (not the BW community as a whole, but rather the TL BW community) or even respond to new players with outright hostility, we've essentially killed the community's potential for growth no matter how small it may be. This thread is about Browder's interview and his side of things why SC2 is the way it is and not like BW. I expanded on that to the best of my ability, because this is a new thread and it was quickly deteriorating into off-topic conversation (which I am ironically now in myself). Sure, my points have been posted before by other people in different threads, but I tried to restate them here in a coherent fashion because that was the point of the thread. This isn't a discussion as to which is a better game or why that may be. I felt it could provide more to the topic than arguing about what SC2 should have been, when that will clearly lead us nowhere. The more important part was that SC2 is a resource, and that if we want to use it to it's fullest to further our community, we have to understand why it is what it is. We do not, however, have to like it or despise it for that to be true. I'm not going to argue as to why BW is better in many ways than SC2 by pointing out micro-tricks in order to convince others of my opinion. That's pointless for the discussion in the thread, even if the opinion was well thought out and validated with examples. For the record, we share the sentiment. The whole reason why I pointed out micro-tricks earlier on was to assess why SC2 didn't include them, or why it included very dumbed down versions of them. As for BW's early life, I have to admit that I wasn't following the scene back then. I was more interested in games that were popular among my group of friends, like Counter-Strike, Diablo II and in single player games. I never experienced SC1's shiny phase. Nevertheless, that is completely irrelevant here. The foreign BW community being the "foreign" community speaks a lot as to how much influence it has. Let the Koreans do their thing as long as we get to watch the games and our favorite players, but I'd still like to share that with people who might like it and never had the chance to because they just never watched a single professional game. If BW could make it big in the West after everything that's happened, it would be absolutely awesome. I think we can agree on that, but I don't expect you to hold your breath waiting for it to happen. The fact that SC2 is still in its shiny phase is actually good for Broodwar. When that phase dies down, we can expect at least some people returning to the BW community here on TL. The hardcore SC2 folk aren't going to be a part of the BW community regardless, but the similarities with SC2 and BW may be enough to bring in new blood when people begin to get tired of SC2 instead of having people go off to play WC4 or whatever regardless of where they were originally from. I know and followed the WC3 scene somewhat casually, so I know how the balance of the game evolved prior to 2007. It's very much the same way WoW evolved to what it is today. The races took turns of being imbalanced and players felt entitled to it because they had been underdogs for a while. Still, WC3 sparked a pretty big scene in China, and is still being played there to this day. Sure, it's not the size of BW, but it doesn't have to be. People still play WC3 because they think the game is fun, not because it represents the pinnacle of a good RTS. The competitions exist because people still want to watch them play out, so the sponsors have an incentive to finance them. That has nothing to do with how WC3 compares to BW in terms of anything. Likewise SC2 is not Broodwar, and whether or not it grows and survives as an e-sport is not going to follow the same pattern Broodwar did. SC2 is unlikely to change from what it is today, and that's completely fine. It won't affect us as Broodwar players in any way except by possibly bringing in more people to play the game we love so we can share it with more people. We shouldn't alienate the budding SC2 community from ourselves so that might actually happen one day. If people don't care about that at all, it's their community and their loss. | ||
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ffreakk
Singapore2155 Posts
On April 27 2011 01:39 FrozenSolid wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On April 27 2011 00:53 ninini wrote: The issue with SC2 is that ppl take it too seriously, just because it has the name "Starcraft" in its title. When it was released I didn't see it as the successor to SC1. I saw it as "just another RTS" game, and I quickly wrote it off because it didn't interest me, similarly to how RA3 didn't interest me. People who didn't play BW are drawn in by the hype. OMG! BW is an esport in Korea! Let's make this game into a world-wide esport! And 100% of the BW players who switched over did so because they listened to the hype and saw a new opportunity to earn some fame and cash. All the BW players who switched over were has-been's or never-been's. Is there even a single former Iccup A- rank or better player who thinks SC2 is a better game? I highly doubt that. Even before the beta was released, people took for granted that SC2 would be an esports, before anyone had even played the game. Think about that for a while! And that's the reason why the SC2 pro scene is so ridiculous today. The whole thing is forced. Blizzard are promoting it only because they want to earn money, and the players are supporting it for the money and fame rather than love for the game, although I guess for a lot of players it's the only thing they know, so in their eyes it could be a great game, since they can't really look at SC2 objectively. I don't know how many times I've read "But SC2 will be awesome in a few years after the new expansions and patches". Well, that doesn't justify having a pro scene today, with a sucky game. Why don't we just wait and see how the expansions pan out, and then we can think about a pro scene if the game is good enough. The SC2 pro scene was created entirely on hype, so what will happen when the hype dies out? While it's true that a lot of the hype was created even before the game was released, and that the competitive players switched over in search of a more popular game (and thus a higher chance of being able to go pro), SC2 did manage to catch the eye of players from nearly every RTS, even those who used to not like BW. The game was designed to be as appealing as possible, so this was to be expected. When lots of people started supporting the game, sponsors took note of both the name and the interest. With all the money that's in SC2 so far, trust me, the players are looking at SC2 very objectively. The idea of what's fun and what's not is very subjective. Perhaps the pros like the new gameplay for variety's sake. If they absolutely hated SC2, they wouldn't play it. E-sports isn't exactly the most stable industry to work in, the pros have to like playing the game or else they could never find the means to innovate, learn and get better. The SC2 pro scene isn't just hype at this point, it's real. There's a fomos article here that claims that JulyZerg thinks SC2 is "perhaps even more fun than Broodwar. Whether or not it's true is irrelevant; what matter is that he thinks SC2 is a fun game, even if it's not the "most fun" game. Granted, July wasn't doing so well near the end of his SC:BW career and perhaps he was looking at playing SC2 as a means to remain a competitive top player, but he is still a big part of Broodwar's history, and his words can influence many. As much as we prefer BW over SC2, we have to accept that our opinion is in the minority. SC2 isn't a bad game objectively. Top players are rising in the SC2 scene, and there aren't huge fluctuations in results between bad and good players. Given time, people will figure out the current metagame and leaders will emerge, but this will take a long time (Patching the game frequently actually is detrimental to this, since it discourages refining strategies if they're just going to get nerfed next patch). The professional scene will have consistency and SC2 has everything it needs to be an e-sport. The gameplay itself won't change. SC2 is what it is, and it won't become BW, ever. The difficulty at the top wont come from the challenges in macro and micro, but from other concepts, like mind games, knowledge of game states and periods where your build is strong and your opponent's is weak, and other such things. SC2 is not what we want, but rather it's what we get. It's not perfect, but we have to make do with what we have. Looking at it, I feel it's the best alternative to Broodwar with potential of going big. Then again, few foreign BW players still have hopes of going pro, but if SC2 is successful it may reinvigorate the e-sports scene in the west, and BW may yet have a chance. To be frank, I think that's the only chance BW has of becoming popular outside Korea. We've already exhausted all other options. I did not try to quote it out of context, let me attempt to break down your wall of text to explain why i said what i did. Correct me if i misunderstand anywhere. para 1: SC2 is designed to attract many players, it did. para 2: fun is relative. Proscene = real, not just hype. para 3: SC:BW is the community is the minority. July seems to prefer SC2. para 4: SC2 isnt a bad game objectively. + <some speculations> + <some agreeable opinion on why SC2 is different from BW>. para 5: SC2 = BW's only chance outside of Korea. After breaking the text wall down, i kinda lost track of your point. Para 2,3,4 looks like the typical SC2 advertisement (para 4 also have a few opinions, tho i dont see where that point is going). All in all though, what is it that you you wanted to discuss? What do the BW enthusiast do outside of continuing to love BW until SC2 die out? (which is what we (i) already do). Edit: From your new post: as far as i know nobody in the BW section do anything resembling "alienating" the SC2 fans. They are welcomed everytime they go into Live Report threads, at least until they start flaunting their over-zealous SC2/Blizz fanboyism. New fans are welcomed, but nobody liked the obnoxious, annoying ones. | ||
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
On April 27 2011 08:13 lungo wrote: i just think sc2 is bad... with an very established rts community, pros all over crawing to play sc2, i think blizzard made a bad job making this sc2.. its allmost at the stage i wouldnt even call it starcraft, its a disgrace to broodwar. anyway, i just keep watching msl and osl instead... Totally agree. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
Personally I just have an incredibly hard time reconciling the fact that so many issues I have with SC2 are solved by BW. Not the minor balance issues but the overall gameplay problems it suffers from | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
Really the only reasonable criticism is that it is less fun to watch. And for those of you who feel this way I ask you to take an objective look at what is happening in the west today. SC2 is the biggest e-sport ever. Money-wise, player participation-wise and viewer-wise. It is ok to have a dissenting opinion but at least know that is what it is. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On April 27 2011 10:03 Velocirapture wrote: This whole conversation is crazy to me. SC2 is a GREAT competitive game. Just because it is easier to be good at the game, doesn't mean its easier to be GREAT at the game. There is a reason why pro players have to practice all day every day to remain competitive. Really the only reasonable criticism is that it is less fun to watch. And for those of you who feel this way I ask you to take an objective look at what is happening in the west today. SC2 is the biggest e-sport ever. Money-wise, player participation-wise and viewer-wise. It is ok to have a dissenting opinion but at least know that is what it is. This isn't actually true at all, the CS/CPL boom of early to mid 2000s was much bigger than SC2 currently is in the west, and culturally SC2 is nothing compared to BW in Korea. SC2 is not the biggest esport by any metric you could use to determine such a thing | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
The SC2 community is much closer to BW than say, the C&C: RA 3 community. SC2 is the only game that is similar enough to BW while still being accepted by the mainstream even if only by name (though there are other similarities), so it also represents Broodwar's last hope for a renewed foreign scene. If there's a SC3 in the future, it will not be relevant to BW in any shape, way or form. But why is SC2 the last hope? You expect the fame of BW to make SC2 work, while the games have absolutely nothing in common except the brand and overall theme. Most of the BW fans really wanted SC2 to work, so they looked at it with rose-colored glasses. A lot of ppl still do. What they need to realize is that you can't "produce" a esport game. I think the reasons why BW was so great was: 1. The team's major goal was to revolutionize the genre, making a great game that was much more complex than WC2. 2. Luck I think it's stupid to assume that the game that takes over the pro scene from BW is a Blizzard game. It's not the tough to master macro and micro in itself that makes BW a great game. What's really great about BW is that the tough mechanics forces you to make decisions and prioritize. What should I hotkey at this part of the game? How do I place my buildings to easen production? How much micro should I do? Is it worth mt time to harass? | ||
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tissue
Malaysia441 Posts
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Anxiety
United States650 Posts
Even Day[9] has been cater more towards the casuals. When he had a smaller viewer base (Chill vs. CombatEX- anyone?), he was much less... tidy? held by rules? I understand that he has a better image and needs to maintain it, not to mention some viewers probably would be offended by his cussing and bear semen, but I personally preferred the cussing/not as professional looking Day[9]. Funday Monday, 2v2 week, and Newbie ___day also seem to cater to casuals. Funday Monday gives him a break i guess, Newbie ___day helps the new players watching, which are all understandable. 2v2 week seems odd in my eyes, and rather boring. I am sorry if anyone is offended by this, and if Day[9] reads this, its not that I don't view you as a very good caster, just that I like your old commentaries much better. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49484 Posts
On April 27 2011 08:13 lungo wrote: i just think sc2 is bad... with an very established rts community, pros all over crawing to play sc2, i think blizzard made a bad job making this sc2.. its allmost at the stage i wouldnt even call it starcraft, its a disgrace to broodwar. anyway, i just keep watching msl and osl instead... I disagree. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
sorry but I get the vibe that your interest in quelling the sc2 BW rage is related to your profession Just as people who don't play soccer can probably glimpse the skill of a good soccer player enough to respect and enjoy the sport... any viewer watching a live game that has ever played an RTS before should in theory be able to in some way admire the skill of an sc2 player. As a BW terran player it is very easy for me to look up to any top terran, but of course when I played sc2, I had trouble being impressed by any top player to nearly the same degree. So why make the game so easy? It punishes the viewer that actually has invested a real amount of time into the game... because pro play looks bland. The difference between pro soccer players in terms of skill are obvious and awe inspiring, it should be this way for sc2 as well. So why not retain the obvious forms of micro that can appeal to everyone who has ever played a game... such as forcefield and blink. Yet also get rid of smart casting, auto-surround and other nonsense so that players who know how to play RTS can appreciate the pro scene alongside players that fit the term "casual gamer". As long as their is already a matchfinding system, making the game more difficult doen't hurt new players. They will just get placed among people who are at their skill level. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
BW is the best RTS ever released SC2 takes the "RT" out of "RTS", therefore destroying the "StarCraft name" Blizzard and other companies dump money into it because of an evolving internet market and how new it is, not because of how great of a game it is. Summary: talk is cheap, let your game play the game for you, and let the people who actually like Real Time Strategy retain themselves as a proud BW community supporter. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Skill gaps are unfavored by games meant for large public playerbases who overall probably possess a very low, basic, and limited understanding of the game's mechanics and how to play effectively. SC2 is a shining example of this. Its meant for a big audience, its meant to be simple and "fun" (subjective, of course). The main difference between BW and SC2 is the human skill factor. In any professional anything (job, sport, game, etc), the "professional" is supposed to have a huge gap between him and the amateurs. The "top" professionals should also be able to place a huge skill gap between them and the other "pros". This is how literally EVERY successful mass-sport becomes popular. There's a sort of mysticism about how the hell the top guys can be so flawless. It is this mysticism that gives BW such an irresistible allure. The mechanics of a good e-sport should be designed similar to a real sport. Since puppy used soccer as an example, I will embellish upon this. Consider your "top" players such as (but certainly not limited to) Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Rooney, etc. You try to place them up against "lower pros", and you will see the gap. You try to place those "lower pros" against inter-mural or community teams in lower leagues and you'll see as big if not more of a gap. Just like in SCBW, they have refined their skills so much to the point they can make key plays against another team of professionals. Their skill can cover any deficiencies they might have and they work to refine them even further with every practice session and game they play. For a BW-equivalent, micro in BW is essential because with good micro along with your macro, you can overcome units that supposedly hard-counter your units. Lurker vs Marines is a good example of this. There were so many checks and balances you could create yourself or take advantage of your enemy's mistakes, it created the opportunity for incredible refinement just like in a regular sport. This is what creates an e-sport. SC2 does not possess this same depth unless you're looking at it with an incredibly biased and illogical view. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
 The reality is that anyone with experience in both, and or a basic level of intelligence clearly sees the difference. Despite that, BW players are insanely jealous of the sponsorship that goes into SC2, not the game or players itself. I can personally assure any SC2 player or supporter of that. | ||
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Vestige
United States303 Posts
The rich dad's are all the hard work and skill and then the daugher is jsut the pure money and glitz and glam. IMO Brodwer should hvae never been head of the Dev. team let alone be ON the team AT ALL. Look at how poorly C&C turned out. If things keep going the way they are going now, SC2 is going to be the same if it isnt already. people make jokes about 1a2a3a on BW, but all anyone needs for sc2 is just...a.... | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49484 Posts
Calling SC2 a disgrace to starcraft is absolute shit.If you want to criticize it make it constrictive instead of just shitting on it and starting a flame war.SC2 won't be bad forever.Everything changes. @game:quit being such an elitist.If you hate SC2 keep the hate to yourself unless you can actually give some constructive criticism instead of shitting on it by calling it a disgrase to RTS and BW. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
SC2 took how many years to release? How many times have they tried to fix it? Jokes on you buddy. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10290 Posts
On April 25 2011 21:19 Legatus Lanius wrote: if he cared so much about the 'sport' aspect he wouldve just stuck to broodwar and ditched this sc2 crap. this is all about cashing in on bw's success Um...duh? That's what sequels are for. You could also say that BW was cashing in on SC1's success Haha yeah, he talked as if Blizzard doesn't own BW. | ||
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Game
3191 Posts
On April 27 2011 15:08 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Haha yeah, he talked as if Blizzard doesn't own BW. Best part is that Blizzard wouldn't be a company without SC1. The release of SC boosted Battle.net 800%. Just sayin. | ||
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