|
@ FrozenSolid
You might not mean it that way but does this
so they can make informed decisions for themselves.
imply that you think people arent capable of making decision, so they need the intelligent you to help them make their decision?..
Well, enough with the hostiilties from me now.
1/ I agree that supply cap stays at 200/200, unless we somehow come to revelation that 256/256 is the optimal supply cap or something.
2/ Probably everybody knows that Blizz is mainly (like 99.9% main) trying to cater for the casuals. So stuffs like "removing Muta-stacking is to help the casual" really doesnt bring anything new to the table.
Catering to the casuals, so far, have done nothing but deteriorate gameplay. And that bad gameplay is why people dislike the game, not because they dont understand Blizz's intention.
Rant: Removing interesting units, and replacing them with A-move ones seriously sucks (i want Reavers!), and a bunch of other things thats been mentioned a zillion times already.. Even as a casual, i hate it (1v1 Plat (well i kinda stopped playing after 9 games T_T).. Nvr been to Iccup or Brainclan or w/e, as casual as it gets RTS-wise).
Edit: Also like to add that i like the DT thing.. I mean, cmon probes, you got killed in ONE hit.. Nobody goes "Our forces are under attack" when they get off-ed in 0.5 second.
|
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No.
|
On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No.
thats because you like simple games. im sure jaedong wouldnt be too fond of a game that made units for him that couldnt be micro'd
|
On April 26 2011 22:59 ffreakk wrote:
Rant: Removing interesting units, and replacing them with A-move ones seriously sucks (i want Reavers!), and a bunch of other things thats been mentioned a zillion times already.. Even as a casual, i hate it (1v1 Plat (well i kinda stopped playing after 9 games T_T).. Nvr been to Iccup or Brainclan or w/e, as casual as it gets RTS-wise).
No, you don't want them. You want the idea of reavers. Hard to master and if mastered well, will produce good results.
|
On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No.
Why do you waste our time by posting a stupid straw man argument? There are several key gameplay aspects of BW that made it a great game that are missing from sc2 and would've made it much better. You are deliberately ignoring them...
edit: It's not a coincidence that both TvZ and TvT are regarded as the most fun to play/watch SC2 MUs and happen to be the most similar to BW out of all SC2 MUs.
|
On April 26 2011 23:10 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No. thats because you like simple games. im sure jaedong wouldnt be too fond of a game that made units for him that couldnt be micro'd
Really? That's what it comes down to? I'm glad I left BW.
User was warned for this post
|
On April 26 2011 23:11 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No. Why do you waste our time by posting a stupid straw man argument? There are several key gameplay aspects of BW that made it a great game that are missing from sc2 and would've made it much better. You are deliberately ignoring them...
This is like a bisu fan arguing with a flash fan but only dumber. Close-minded SC2 schmuks doesn't have to post on BW thread, let alone derail BW on a BW forum.
|
On April 26 2011 23:13 SgtRock wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 23:10 Legatus Lanius wrote:On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No. thats because you like simple games. im sure jaedong wouldnt be too fond of a game that made units for him that couldnt be micro'd Really? That's what it comes down to? I'm glad I left BW.
and everybody is glad you're gone
|
On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No.
Yes, im sure you love SC2, so please be so kind as to go back to that forums and embrace your beloved game, you have my blessings.
Boasting that you have played every single one of Blizz games doesnt suddenly mean that you are not a casual. And it have been mentioned many times that Blizz cater their game (Sc2) to casuals, some are bound to like it.
Edit: typos.
|
I find it interesting (and comforting) that the development team was there to stay his hand when it came to things to be added. It makes me wonder what kind of crazy stuff he wanted to port over from C&C:G/RA2 to SC2... and it also makes me wonder if he wanted to keep in the crazy-awesome micro based units (reaver, defiler), but everyone just told him "no".
The hundreds of patches comment is funny, though.
|
On April 26 2011 23:14 Legatus Lanius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 23:13 SgtRock wrote:On April 26 2011 23:10 Legatus Lanius wrote:On April 26 2011 23:08 SgtRock wrote:
Who knew the BW world hates SC:2 so much? I played SC back in the first months since the release. Heck I played the ORIGINAL Warcraft. I had to wait for War2.
I have owned and played every game Blizzard has released since wacraft 1. (Except WoW, thank goodness) Guys, Starcraft 2 has met my expectations. I am very pleased with the game. Sure, it isn't BW, and never will be. BW is a different game, I honestly have no idea what some of the BW fanboys wanted to see SC2 do. Many were set to throw in the failure card off the get-go, not caring about how good or bad the game really was.
Am I mad that I can select all of my hatcheries at once? No. Am I mad that we can now set a rally point on minerals? No. Am I made that the AI allows for "pushing" and not making 3 dragoons magically walk into my mineral line every time I want to leave my base? No.
Does all of that make BW better than SC:2? No. thats because you like simple games. im sure jaedong wouldnt be too fond of a game that made units for him that couldnt be micro'd Really? That's what it comes down to? I'm glad I left BW. and everybody is glad you're gone
i would have to agree
|
of course hes a casual, its why hes complaining about doing work
|
On April 26 2011 22:56 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 22:50 maybenexttime wrote:
The truth is, Blizzard could've changed even more of the obvious things while staying true to the BW gameplay when it comes to the more subtle gameplay aspects, such as defender's advantage, highground advantage, micro tricks/techniques, space controling units, powerful spells (would require removing smart-casting, but that's not necessarily an issue - there was no smart-casting in any CNC games, yet nobody complained, and they're the type of players that want their UI as friendly as possible), micro-based counter system, good maps, etc. SC2 does not need units straight from BW to fix those issues, it doesn't need the exact same micro tricks or techniques either.
I'm certain, that the mainstream media wouldn't even notice those things. I doubt they'd realize the difference (the gameplay implication) between the BW highground and SC2 highground advantage if it wasn't outright pointed out to them by Blizzard. They'd be completely unaware of subtle micro techniques the competitive players are mastering or how map control works with space controling units.
They will .. They do now .. If the dont get it, the casters will give the clueless viewers the idea. I don't know where do you get the idea that people won't notice the mechanics of the game if they are watching the match. They do, that's why if people saw these mechanics at play, coupled with the hype the casters or commentators, they can make an awesome atmosphere where in viewers would actually get it. BW didn't made itself what it is now by flashy, shiny stuff.
I think when the term "mainstream media" was being used, it was mainly referencing the mainstream press that writes up the previews and reviews for SC2 before and shortly after release.
I assume that the majority of reviewers from major gaming publications have little or no knowledge of the BW or SC2 pro scene. Likewise, the majority of players probably have a similar background. The reviewers probably scramble to play through the campaign and a few multiplayer matches before writing up their reviews and choosing a rating. Consequently, they may be unaware of a lot of the subtleties of the game as they move on to other games to review.
To most of the mainstream media, and probably most of the gaming community, competitive Starcraft is at most an anomaly and curiosity, so they are probably unaware of the subtleties that made BW so appealing to us. As a result, they probably have a lot of fun playing SC2 without realizing how much better it could be if the game had some tweaks to give it BW-esque depth.
|
Netherlands45349 Posts
Try explaining the casual audience that vultures do not counter dragoons due to the fact that they deal concussive damage yet Dragoons are large, but that vultures can take off the shields of dragoons easily, which takes 100% full damage from concussive damage, and due to patrol micro they can moving shot to reduce the damage they take.
Try explaining that to a casual as a commentator so that he understands.
Easy for you?Well yeah, you follow the game and you know how it works, you are not the casual audience, you are the hardcore gamer. what works better is, Ball A is engaging ball B.
The whole shield/massive/large/small was taken out in favor of armored and light, which is easier to understand.
|
On April 26 2011 22:59 ffreakk wrote:@ FrozenSolid You might not mean it that way but does this imply that you think people arent capable of making decision, so they need the intelligent you to help them make their decision?.. Well, enough with the hostiilties from me now.
I don't mean to imply that other people need my input to make intelligent decisions at all. Many people on this forum and in this thread are certainly smarter than I am. In fact, let me state that I don't consider myself particularly intelligent at all. This is a discussion thread about an interview of SC2's lead designer, and instead of repeating why I consider SC:BW to be better than SC2 wont add anything meaningful to the conversation, as other people have already done that. I'm basically stating my opinion that SC2 is an opportunity for BW because at this point potential new players outside of Korea will likely be SC2 converts and explaining why I think that way, despite SC2 practically splitting the old Broodwar community in two. If SC2 gathers a massive user-base, some of those users are bound to be curious about Broodwar, and may explore it as a result either through watching the Korean scene or because their SC2 heroes used to play Broodwar. Every cloud has a silver lining, or I should hope so at least.
I'm just trying to discuss the article. The people in this thread are intelligent enough to put my opinions to shame if they care to. I just didn't want the thread to deteriorate to infighting between the community, and felt like looking at what's happened from a different point of view.
|
Unfortunately, I think SC2 took away from BW way more players than it can possibly bring in.
|
On April 26 2011 05:46 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 21:35 Kipsate wrote:On April 25 2011 21:22 ShadeR wrote:
Found this gem comment in the source article lol.
"Vincent Goossens 22 Apr 2011 at 1:10 pm PST
SC1 and BW have had hundreds of patches before it became good and it took years. And only then it became popular with the Koreans.
Don't forget that. A good game takes time, and it has to be shaped while it's in the open."
This is factually wrong, it didn't have hundreds of patches O.o. Not only that but SC1 was a game that was immediately popular mostly because of its timing and Korea's culture at that time. it didn't become popular just because it was a good game, it became popular because it was released in Korea at a really really nice time.
Nice timing helped it get into the spotlight, but being a genuinely good game was what let it survive after Blizzard moved on to other projects and released other games.
I can also say there was not a soul who played StarCraft I thinking 'oh, it will get better with the next expansion, don't worry guys! Just keep playing!' No one had to be told to play the game for the sake of ESPORTS. StarCraft II has every advantage possible right now and people are still saying 'maybe it will be good one day.' It is so sigh-worthy to try and defend SCII's flaws by claiming that SC:BW had it easier... Guess what, it was Blizzard's decision to make a game that doesn't run on any computer not dedicated to gaming. It was Blizzard's decision to make a generic RTS. It's Blizzard's decision to throw a tonne of money at their game instead of making something good first. I don't call that bad luck, or not having the same lucky timing SCI did.
|
On April 26 2011 23:46 Kipsate wrote:
Try explaining the casual audience that vultures do not counter dragoons due to the fact that they deal concussive damage yet Dragoons are large, but that vultures can take off the shields of dragoons easily, which takes 100% full damage from concussive damage, and due to patrol micro they can moving shot to reduce the damage they take.
Try explaining that to a casual as a commentator so that he understands.
Easy for you?Well yeah, you follow the game and you know how it works, you are not the casual audience, you are the hardcore gamer. what works better is, Ball A is engaging ball B.
The whole shield/massive/large/small was taken out in favor of armored and light, which is easier to understand.
I can explain that to a casual easily. Everything is summed up by saying 'Vultures suck vs dragoons'. The casual spectator does not really need to be aware of anything else you mentioned. All the casual audience will see if a fast unit and the micro you can do to kill a infinite number of (insert melee unit here).
|
As a matter of fact, I do think that DTs not giving the "your forces are under attack" announcement is good for gameplay, and it's not some twisted logic or glorifying the game you're making it out to be. rofl point proven
|
On April 27 2011 00:21 butchji wrote:Show nested quote +As a matter of fact, I do think that DTs not giving the "your forces are under attack" announcement is good for gameplay, and it's not some twisted logic or glorifying the game you're making it out to be. rofl point proven
How so? Explain to me how it doesn't make in light of what role this unit has in gameplay? You didn't prove anything. Just your own bias.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
