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On January 20 2011 20:17 FlamingTurd wrote:
Terran is simply OP and the Koreans just show this better. They have so many more viable strategies and are simply more powerful in so many situations. Over all this time it has been shown again and again. Simply look at all the stats for proof, it's not that difficult to understand. Up until now like 80% of all tournaments since beta have been won by Terran. Thread after thread has been created showing T domination in every category.
Its not a big surprise when you think about it, the game is called WINGS OF LIBERTY centering around a terran campaign. The developers just put the most amount of time into making sure they got terran right. You can tell by the mirror matchups. TvT is the only mirror solid enough to go past 10 minutes.
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On January 20 2011 20:17 freetgy wrote:
2 marauder
200/50 for 40dps on Armored
vs.
1 immortal
250/100 for ~ 34 dps on armored
You forgot overshield which is nullifing this DPS to 20. Stop comparing units that way, it just doesn't make any sense.
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On January 20 2011 20:20 Elwar wrote:Last time I saw someone add up all known wins, what he wrote was correct.
If you only count like pro tournaments, with known players, then no, he couldnt be less correct.
How someone can even believe that this is the case amazes me haha 
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Rofl, this thread is like accumulated frustration of all players that cant stand they are not playing good enough and blame their loses for racial imbalance. You guys realize that the skill level you are playing at has nothing to do with balance? First focus on your game and try to see mistakes you make and maybe then you can throw something like "I think Terran early game is too strong" in.. Things like "Stim is OP" is such a ridiculous statement, that I dont even know.. Do you have a bit of judgment? I dont think so..
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It does seem like terran is the most forgiving race in terms of BO and scouting. A combination of wall-ins, marines, and scan make you safe against pretty much any opening, whereas the other two races can easily get caught with their pants down.
THis would give Terran an advantage while the game is still new, that would diminish with time as BOs became more predictable.
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On January 20 2011 20:29 CarlyZerg wrote:
It does seem like terran is the most forgiving race in terms of BO and scouting. A combination of wall-ins, marines, and scan make you safe against pretty much any opening, whereas the other two races can easily get caught with their pants down.
THis would give Terran an advantage while the game is still new, that would diminish with time as BOs became more predictable.
Wow, have you ever played Terran? Have you ever made another unit than MMM? Like Tank? Then tell me how it feels to be caught with your pants down..
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United Kingdom38145 Posts
It's just a flexible race, as a result there are viable strategies available and in use for just about any map and match up, which is obviously not the case for other races (see zerg close pos. etc). I wouldn't say they are overpowered, rather that they simply aren't weak anywhere.
I also believe they have a higher proportion of the best players playing the race at the top end of things. Certainly Toss seems to have a less convincing line up of top players in Korea.
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On January 20 2011 20:20 jeeneeus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:10 teamsolid wrote:On January 20 2011 20:02 jeeneeus wrote:
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer, IdrA
Protoss: MC, Genius, HongUn, Tester
Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, NaDa, Rainbow, Cliiiide
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro. You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP. Those guys aren't the cream of the crop. If you're gonna include those players, then for terran you can add Top, Ensnare, Maka, Hyperdub, Rain (super iffy but he did get second in GSL 3), TheSTC (Although, he never got to play GSL because of the army thing, he's still one of my favorite players). Probably also add Leenock for zerg.
July is a 3 time OSL champion. Zenio, Check and InCa were top of the line during beta and got respectable places in GSL1-3. Sangho was a consistent BW proleague player. All of the above players have strong solid playstyles, but just haven't achieved any big results yet. They're certainly just as talented as any of the Terrans on that list. How would you know, that they wouldn't be making better results if they had played Terran instead?
Leenock is good, but overhyped by Tastetosis. Hyperdub and Rain are way overrated (I would put Choya before them), but I would agree with Top, Ensnare, Maka and TheSTC (if he still played).
So 6 for Z, 6 for P, and 9 for T.
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I'm by no means a professional, but I have watched all GSLs, and take a pretty serious interest in the game.
Personally, I feel that Terran is more methodical than either Zerg or Protoss. It is more straight forward, more forgiving.
I don't feel any part is OP. Mules are not OP. Scanning is not OP. Bunkers are not OP.
For zerg in particular, their main hinderance is also part of the best part of Zerg. They can chose to make 6 drones in the same time Terran can make 1 SCV, however if they have read the opponent wrong, they can easily be crushed. There is A LOT of balancing for Zerg to consider. More drones means less immediate army. More immediate army means shit economy. You either have to be a natural, or a mathematician to get the balance perfect.
Protoss is a little different, in that their 1st tier ranged units are SO expensive per dps. Nothing makes me more moist than a protoss microing seamlessly. You really need to find a way to make those units cost effective. I think Sentrys are extremely good units, and can make many losing games into a win. But again, 100 gas! Wowzers!
In summary. I don't feel any part of Terran is simply too strong. I just feel it takes less of a "SC Brain" to maximize potential. Also, you don't have to risk as much for the same amount of reward.
My opinions only.
EDIT: Forgot to mention my points are more so aimed at the early game of each race.
In a long, macro game, Terran can turtle harder than anyone, but they generally can't re-max as fast as the other two races.... That being said, they can use mules, and cut SCVs in the end game too, to get a bigger army.
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Hahaha. Biased thread, how cute  You give the options "terran's OP" and "terran's easy" but not "the terran players are simply better than the z and p players this season". If I made a thread about that Zerg Zerg Protoss has been the previous winners of gsl with the options:
1. Map Imbalance (map favours P and Z)
2. Z and P is OP
3. Lower skill req for P and Z (T players will catch up once they play more)
Would you find that fair or just biased propaganda?
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I definitely don't think Protoss has anything to complain about.
Zerg *maybe* but I think that is completely map related and not game related. The game seems relatively balanced to me on better maps. Zerg and Protoss aren't exactly playing good with exception of a few. Not to mention that due to the GSL system you have tons of good players not in the spotlight at the moment.
Thread probably getting closed sooner or later.
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On January 20 2011 20:42 Healingproof wrote:Hahaha. Biased thread, how cute You give the options "terran's OP" and "terran's easy" but not "the terran players are simply better than the z and p players this season". If I made a thread about that Zerg Zerg Protoss has been the previous winners of gsl with the options: 1. Map Imbalance (map favours P and Z) 2. Z and P is OP 3. Lower skill req for P and Z (T players will catch up once they play more) Would you find that fair or just biased propaganda?
except Terrans made all the finals appearnace and has very good representation at all rounds. Not really the same thing. I think the option "More good players playing terran" can be used to represent your sentiment, so the poll wasn't lacking in detail at all to cater your opinion.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On January 20 2011 20:42 Healingproof wrote:Hahaha. Biased thread, how cute You give the options "terran's OP" and "terran's easy" but not "the terran players are simply better than the z and p players this season".
"Every season" would be more precise.
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On January 20 2011 20:25 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:20 Elwar wrote:On January 20 2011 20:19 raidmaster wrote:
Rofl, you made my day. Last time I saw someone add up all known wins, what he wrote was correct. If you only count like pro tournaments, with known players, then no, he couldnt be less correct. How someone can even believe that this is the case amazes me haha
Shrug, I remember the thread from TL. I'm not sure what period/patch it was from though.
The last 80 tournies in the TLPD have a 65% terran win rate (25% toss, 7.5% zerg, 2.5% random), which is still pretty illuminating.
Maps are obviously a part of it but I think its more terran has the easiest time capitalising on mistakes combined with having the best chance of inflicting a build-order loss and minimal chance of suffering one.
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Threads like this are the reason I hope blizzard doesn't read SC2 sites.
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On January 20 2011 20:44 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I definitely don't think Protoss has anything to complain about.
Zerg *maybe* but I think that is completely map related and not game related. The game seems relatively balanced to me on better maps. Zerg and Protoss aren't exactly playing good with exception of a few. Not to mention that due to the GSL system you have tons of good players not in the spotlight at the moment.
Thread probably getting closed sooner or later.
Thank you for saying this. Unfortunately it sometimes takes a highlighted name to get people to listen 
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On January 20 2011 20:42 Healingproof wrote:Hahaha. Biased thread, how cute You give the options "terran's OP" and "terran's easy" but not "the terran players are simply better than the z and p players this season". If I made a thread about that Zerg Zerg Protoss has been the previous winners of gsl with the options: 1. Map Imbalance (map favours P and Z) 2. Z and P is OP 3. Lower skill req for P and Z (T players will catch up once they play more) Would you find that fair or just biased propaganda?
except your thread wouldn't work because everyone would realize the OP of that thread is trolling.
This one works because everyone knows its not troll thread
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From watching pretty much all the GSL games, and heap of streams besides, it seems to me to boil down to this:
Terran seems to get more chances to win.
A Zerg win in ZvT, for instance, generally seems to consist of the zerg repeatedly denying the Terran's bids for victory until he runs out of steam. Terran can earn a win by taking down one tech structure, one base, one unit (if it's a queen). Terran can win with mass units, or he can win with tech. The better the Terran, the more bases get taken, the more resources get mined, the longer the game goes on and the more chances he gets.
A better Z or P player can still win, no question - it's just that he has to demonstrate his superiority consistently, multiple times over the course of a match, and that's really, really hard when you get up to GSL and skill differentials become more marginal.
Now, this may all settle down eventually, or it might require some adjustment of the game. I could, if I were going to speculate, imagine marines being toned down a tad (with upgrades bringing them back up to current upgraded strengths), or perhaps a buff to nydus play (cheaper tech/worms, or worms requiring detection to see while they're building). Something to make it practical to punish Terrans for leaving their bases undefended.
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On January 20 2011 20:42 Healingproof wrote:Hahaha. Biased thread, how cute You give the options "terran's OP" and "terran's easy" but not "the terran players are simply better than the z and p players this season". If I made a thread about that Zerg Zerg Protoss has been the previous winners of gsl with the options: 1. Map Imbalance (map favours P and Z) 2. Z and P is OP 3. Lower skill req for P and Z (T players will catch up once they play more) Would you find that fair or just biased propaganda?
First of all, it's compiled results from all four seasons. So yea, reading comprehension...
Second, the reason that isn't an option is because it doesn't seem like a realistic possibility to me. It is very statistically unlikely for all the best players to make the same random choice (picking T because they liked the space suits or something). And if the choice isn't random, then it begs the question of the OP - why are so many of the best players rolling Terran? In any one match, or series, or even tournament it makes sense explain it away with player skill. But over the course of hundreds of matches, that logic begins to fall apart.
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On January 20 2011 20:45 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:42 Healingproof wrote:Hahaha. Biased thread, how cute You give the options "terran's OP" and "terran's easy" but not "the terran players are simply better than the z and p players this season". If I made a thread about that Zerg Zerg Protoss has been the previous winners of gsl with the options: 1. Map Imbalance (map favours P and Z) 2. Z and P is OP 3. Lower skill req for P and Z (T players will catch up once they play more) Would you find that fair or just biased propaganda? except Terrans made all the finals appearnace and has very good representation at all rounds. Not really the same thing. I think the option "More good players playing terran" can be used to represent your sentiment, so the poll wasn't lacking in detail at all to cater your opinion.
except terran is a more popular race in korea so obviously it's going to have a higher representation? If 1000 plays terran 500 plays zerg, do you expect there to be an equal amount of terrans and zergs in every stage of the tournament then? No, terran is supposed to have more representation. And for previous gsls, s1 and s2 T was OP, but they got nerfed so that's irrelevant. s3 - 50% toss 50% terran in the RO4 even tho terran is a more popular race? doesn't that make protoss overrepresented?
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EPT
