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On January 20 2011 19:44 PraetorianX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 19:36 aznwolfstein wrote:On January 20 2011 19:33 PraetorianX wrote:The argument about player preference doesn't hold because protoss is the most played race, even in Masters league. Source: http://www.sc2ranks.com/Stats/league/all/1/allThe argument about Terran being strong in the "early meta-game" and Protoss and Zerg players not being mature is just silly. Silly, silly. Terran is clearly OP, specifically marauders, stimpack, mules and planetaries. http://www.sc2ranks.com/Stats/league/kr/1/allNot an overwhelming number but GSL is a Korean tournament and there are more terrans in masters. I'd say terran strategies are just more refined right now. Well, the Korean masters is 37% Terran and 35% Protoss, to be specific. So the argument " More players pick T, so more T succeed" is faulty. Which is why it's strange that it has 24% of the votes, at the time of writing this.
OK, I guess you're never going to read my posts. I think it's preferable to use the top 200, as that is more indicative of the GSL caliber players. For the top 200, 41% are terrans. Of the top 20, 50% are terran. Of course the ladder isn't the greatest measure of the top players, as most of them practice with their team more.
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer, IdrA
Protoss: MC, Genius, HongUn, Tester
Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, NaDa, Rainbow, Cliiiide
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro.
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[Gold League]Clearly it's because Terran is imba, I mean Marauders got stim and they have MULEs![/Gold League]
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Better player playing terran. MVP, Jinro, MKP, Nada, Boxer. You could say that these players are good because of a race imbalance, but that would be silly. Zerg and protoss just dont have alot of really good people playing.
The third or fourth most sucessful protoss player is ChoyafOu, pretty sad : /
Zerg dont have alot of really good players either, atleast not compared to Terran.
Ofc maps also play a big role. But in EU and NA, terran isnt dominating like this, mainly because they distribution of good players is more even, if that makes sense.
I think it's pretty stupid to imply that Terran is imbalanced this much. Balance is almost perfect, the only problem is the maps.
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As a Terran player, i voted that Terran is "OP". I hope no TL mods tackle me now for this and beat me with a banhammer =P
The OP part i feel is the early game against Protoss where we can kill them unless they do perfect forcefields. Against Zerg i feel things have evened out more, but i still say we have the upper hand, and we only get in trouble if we let Zerg macro up.
Late game against both i feel that Terran is lacking, we cant compete with Zerg macro late game, whereas a 200/200 Protoss army with Colossi and HTs is our worst nightmare, even perfect EMPs against Toss would barely make the playing field even.
I still think Blizzard has done a great job by giving Zerg a significant buff (Roach range) and recently buffed Phoenix and lowered the cost of Observers.
A slight nerf to early Terran aggression and a slight buff late game i feel would go a long way into making all the matchups better for everyone.
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On January 20 2011 19:42 Gigaudas wrote:Because Terran is overpowered. Blaming maps and saying that Terran is OP is pretty much the same thing as you can throw everything around by changing maps. Terran has been overpowered since release and the only reason people aren't crying more about it is that lone Zergs won the first two GSL. The first GSL was still an indication that Terran was overpowered (Terran domination in the brackets) while the second GSL was during the few weeks in October that represent the only time that Terran didn't dominate. The same can be said about the foreign scene: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesThis was after a balance patch that Terran players needed a few weeks to figure out. The last few weeks represent a change as well as European Protoss players have been doing very well.
exactly what i wanted to say. the entire sc2 community was complaining about Terran being OP and then few patches come that doesn't change the inherent problems like mule, PF, marauder and T supporters over-exaggerate what the patch did so people actually started to believe everything was balanced...and then over time, people are still curious why T is still dominating?
imo, nothing drastic changed. I have been praying to blizzard to nerf marauders since beta and the only thing that they do is make concussive shells a 50/50 tech. I say this and I USE marauders in all three matchups very often so it shows how serious it is
On January 20 2011 20:05 Tyree wrote:
A slight nerf to early Terran aggression and a slight buff late game i feel would go a long way into making all the matchups better for everyone.
this is how i feel too. take away from T's early game and give a slight buff to T's late game.
Nerfing Marauders = Hinder's T's early game
Give T a decent T3 unit that can be massed like Ultras (Thors is out of the question because they can be neural parasited)
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On January 20 2011 20:05 lastmotion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 19:42 Gigaudas wrote:Because Terran is overpowered. Blaming maps and saying that Terran is OP is pretty much the same thing as you can throw everything around by changing maps. Terran has been overpowered since release and the only reason people aren't crying more about it is that lone Zergs won the first two GSL. The first GSL was still an indication that Terran was overpowered (Terran domination in the brackets) while the second GSL was during the few weeks in October that represent the only time that Terran didn't dominate. The same can be said about the foreign scene: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesThis was after a balance patch that Terran players needed a few weeks to figure out. The last few weeks represent a change as well as European Protoss players have been doing very well. exactly what i wanted to say. the entire sc2 community was complaining about Terran being OP and then few patches come that doesn't change the inherent problems like mule, PF, marauder and T supporters over-exaggerate what the patch did so people actually started to believe everything was balanced...and then over time, people are still curious why T is still dominating? imo, nothing drastic changed. I have been praying to blizzard to nerf marauders since beta and the only thing that they do is make concussive shells a 50/50 tech. I say this and I USE marauders in all three matchups very often so it shows how serious it is Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:05 Tyree wrote:
A slight nerf to early Terran aggression and a slight buff late game i feel would go a long way into making all the matchups better for everyone. this is how i feel too. take away from T's early game and give a slight buff to T's late game
I rarely use marauders, almost only against a roach Z. Marauders arent the problem. Actually terran imbalance isnt the problem. If there even is a problem, it has to be the maps.
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On January 20 2011 20:02 jeeneeus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 19:44 PraetorianX wrote:On January 20 2011 19:36 aznwolfstein wrote:On January 20 2011 19:33 PraetorianX wrote:The argument about player preference doesn't hold because protoss is the most played race, even in Masters league. Source: http://www.sc2ranks.com/Stats/league/all/1/allThe argument about Terran being strong in the "early meta-game" and Protoss and Zerg players not being mature is just silly. Silly, silly. Terran is clearly OP, specifically marauders, stimpack, mules and planetaries. http://www.sc2ranks.com/Stats/league/kr/1/allNot an overwhelming number but GSL is a Korean tournament and there are more terrans in masters. I'd say terran strategies are just more refined right now. Well, the Korean masters is 37% Terran and 35% Protoss, to be specific. So the argument " More players pick T, so more T succeed" is faulty. Which is why it's strange that it has 24% of the votes, at the time of writing this. OK, I guess you're never going to read my posts. I think it's preferable to use the top 200, as that is more indicative of the GSL caliber players. For the top 200, 41% are terrans. Of the top 20, 50% are terran. Of course the ladder isn't the greatest measure of the top players, as most of them practice with their team more. I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race: Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer, IdrA Protoss: MC, Genius, HongUn, Tester Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, NaDa, Rainbow, Cliiiide Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro.
You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP.
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Most koreans picked terran because they heard it was the best race, after that stopped being the case mostly, they just sticked with terran. Thats why there are so many terrans.
The reason there are so many terrans in the ro8 and higher is mostly due to map imbalances. Jungle basin, steppes of war, delta quadrant, I mean really?
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On January 20 2011 19:53 Phenny wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 19:44 PraetorianX wrote:On January 20 2011 19:36 aznwolfstein wrote:On January 20 2011 19:33 PraetorianX wrote:The argument about player preference doesn't hold because protoss is the most played race, even in Masters league. Source: http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/allThe argument about Terran being strong in the "early meta-game" and Protoss and Zerg players not being mature is just silly. Silly, silly. Terran is clearly OP, specifically marauders, stimpack, mules and planetaries. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/kr/1/allNot an overwhelming number but GSL is a Korean tournament and there are more terrans in masters. I'd say terran strategies are just more refined right now. Well, the Korean masters is 37% Terran and 35% Protoss, to be specific. So the argument " More players pick T, so more T succeed" is faulty. Which is why it's strange that it has 24% of the votes, at the time of writing this. But we're talking about the gsl, so http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170463 tells us; Code S Race stats 14 Terran (43.75%) 9 Protoss 9 Zerg and Code A Race stats 13 Terran (40.6%) 10 Protoss 9 Zerg Sure it shouldn't mean that 7/8 of Code S ro8 are Terran but still.
Those leagues were created from the players that did the best in previous seasons. In GSL season 1 protoss had the most players qualify, and didnt even make the semis. In GSL season 3 zerg had the most players qualify, and didnt even make the semis. The other races have plenty of players, they just cant beat terrans for the top spots.
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Its the maps people, wait till a terran try an 2 rax scv All-in on maps like Aiur garden. Haha i wanna see how that works, a whole Zerg army will pop up by the time the Terran arrives at the ramp.
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id like to vote 3 of the options...
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Map, and stimpack is OP in my opinion
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Wow, lower skill required option in a poll is silly. I mean, sure Z has higher skill requirement, but Protoss is the easy race in Starcraft (least apm intensive, easy macro mechanics etc., something day9 said in one of his dailies). Second silly argument is about imbalance.
The reason why terran is dominant is because most of the better pros play terran. But you can see that good tosses and zergs still manage to win (MC, Whitera, Nestea). If you want to bring up the balance arguments - only zergs can complain, but only on maps like steppes and delta, still I would say the most imbalanced map in poll - Blistering Sands - is heavily zerg favoured.
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terran has the biggest comeback potential imho.
a medivac with 8 marines can do instane amout of economic dmg.
while terran can recover from economic damage way faster than the other races thanks to mules.
this gives terran in most cases an Edge in playing more risky (bringing scvs with attacks), but also more rewarding.
Also Terran has the most flexibel and easy to reach techtree, while still beeing low on cost.
having most cost efficient units also helps a ton.
don't think terran is op in generel,
(except Stimmed Marauders with Medivacs and consequtive shells! this is definitly imho)
They destroy buildings way faster than anything, cost to cost they are even better than fucking Immortals!
2 marauder
200/50 for 40dps on Armored
vs.
1 immortal
250/100 for ~ 34 dps on armored
since their techtree is so flexibel they can also "counter" the enemy composition pretty fast.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Terran is simply OP and the Koreans just show this better. They have so many more viable strategies and are simply more powerful in so many situations. Over all this time it has been shown again and again. Simply look at all the stats for proof, it's not that difficult to understand. Up until now like 80% of all tournaments since beta have been won by Terran. Thread after thread has been created showing T domination in every category.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 20 2011 20:17 FlamingTurd wrote:
Terran is simply OP and the Koreans just show this better. They have so many more viable strategies and are simply more powerful in so many situations. Over all this time it has been shown again and again. Simply look at all the stats for proof, it's not that difficult to understand. Up until now like 80% of all tournaments since beta have been won by Terran. Thread after thread has been created showing T domination in every category.
Rofl, you made my day.
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On January 20 2011 20:19 raidmaster wrote:
Rofl, you made my day.
Last time I saw someone add up all known wins, what he wrote was correct.
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On January 20 2011 20:10 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:05 lastmotion wrote:On January 20 2011 19:42 Gigaudas wrote:Because Terran is overpowered. Blaming maps and saying that Terran is OP is pretty much the same thing as you can throw everything around by changing maps. Terran has been overpowered since release and the only reason people aren't crying more about it is that lone Zergs won the first two GSL. The first GSL was still an indication that Terran was overpowered (Terran domination in the brackets) while the second GSL was during the few weeks in October that represent the only time that Terran didn't dominate. The same can be said about the foreign scene: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leaguesThis was after a balance patch that Terran players needed a few weeks to figure out. The last few weeks represent a change as well as European Protoss players have been doing very well. exactly what i wanted to say. the entire sc2 community was complaining about Terran being OP and then few patches come that doesn't change the inherent problems like mule, PF, marauder and T supporters over-exaggerate what the patch did so people actually started to believe everything was balanced...and then over time, people are still curious why T is still dominating? imo, nothing drastic changed. I have been praying to blizzard to nerf marauders since beta and the only thing that they do is make concussive shells a 50/50 tech. I say this and I USE marauders in all three matchups very often so it shows how serious it is On January 20 2011 20:05 Tyree wrote:
A slight nerf to early Terran aggression and a slight buff late game i feel would go a long way into making all the matchups better for everyone. this is how i feel too. take away from T's early game and give a slight buff to T's late game I rarely use marauders, almost only against a roach Z. Marauders arent the problem. Actually terran imbalance isnt the problem. If there even is a problem, it has to be the maps.
People have been asking for Marauder nerfs since the very start of the beta. Lots of other things have been nerfed since then, but the Marauder has gotten off pretty easily (50/50 conc shells; I'm trying to remember if this was the same patch Stim was made much cheaper.)
At this point, they've nerfed lots of other things, I almost feel like they're balancing around the Marauder.
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On January 20 2011 20:10 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:02 jeeneeus wrote:
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer, IdrA
Protoss: MC, Genius, HongUn, Tester
Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, NaDa, Rainbow, Cliiiide
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro. You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP.
Those guys aren't the cream of the crop. If you're gonna include those players, then for terran you can add Top, Ensnare, Maka, Hyperdub, Rain (super iffy but he did get second in GSL 3), TheSTC (Although, he never got to play GSL because of the army thing, he's still one of my favorite players). Probably also add Leenock for zerg.
Edit: Choya for protoss I guess.
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this thread is incredibly stupid. it will only draw balance whiners, as seen, and u shouldve thought of that >.<
i might aswell give my 2 cents when im in here. i think its maps+ alot of terrans wins (most el oh el) are early/mid game wins, because of their easily massed and cost efficient bio. maybe z/p need to refine their expansion timings more, and figure out Ts timings to handle it, or nerf terran early/buff late, as our "cost efficient" units (aka only shit that works consistently) melts late game normally.
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EPT
