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On January 20 2011 20:44 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I definitely don't think Protoss has anything to complain about.
Zerg *maybe* but I think that is completely map related and not game related. The game seems relatively balanced to me on better maps. Zerg and Protoss aren't exactly playing good with exception of a few. Not to mention that due to the GSL system you have tons of good players not in the spotlight at the moment.
Thread probably getting closed sooner or later.
So is your vote then that it's just random so far? I am earnest in my ignorance and would sincerely appreciate the opinion of someone who actually might know.
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On January 20 2011 20:55 CarlyZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:42 Healingproof wrote:Hahaha. Biased thread, how cute  You give the options "terran's OP" and "terran's easy" but not "the terran players are simply better than the z and p players this season". If I made a thread about that Zerg Zerg Protoss has been the previous winners of gsl with the options: 1. Map Imbalance (map favours P and Z) 2. Z and P is OP 3. Lower skill req for P and Z (T players will catch up once they play more) Would you find that fair or just biased propaganda? First of all, it's compiled results from all four seasons. So yea, reading comprehension... Second, the reason that isn't an option is because it doesn't seem like a realistic possibility to me. It is very statistically unlikely for all the best players to make the same random choice (picking T because they liked the space suits or something). And if the choice isn't random, then it begs the question of the OP - why are so many of the best players rolling Terran? In any one match, or series, or even tournament it makes sense explain it away with player skill. But over the course of hundreds of matches, that logic begins to fall apart.
Oh ok, sorry didn't read the whole OP. Just read the options and couldn't be bothered to read the actual post after seeing those biased options. s1 and s2, sc2 was a complete dif game and terran was OP as hell, why would you count those? Are you gonna count broodwar tournaments in aswell next?
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I'm a firm believer that a player's skill can overcome racial or map imbalance. I think this is what we saw in Fruitdealer when he won GSL1; he was considerably better than the Terran opponents he faced. When a player of top caliber plays the "better" race, no one can top him, like Flash in BW is doing right now. Looking at statistics can tell us some info but I think 4 seasons is still too small of a time frame to make decisions about the data. We haven't seen enough S class players come out and its still too early to make a decision about the relative skill levels
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On January 20 2011 20:33 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:20 jeeneeus wrote:On January 20 2011 20:10 teamsolid wrote:On January 20 2011 20:02 jeeneeus wrote:
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer, IdrA
Protoss: MC, Genius, HongUn, Tester
Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, NaDa, Rainbow, Cliiiide
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro. You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP. Those guys aren't the cream of the crop. If you're gonna include those players, then for terran you can add Top, Ensnare, Maka, Hyperdub, Rain (super iffy but he did get second in GSL 3), TheSTC (Although, he never got to play GSL because of the army thing, he's still one of my favorite players). Probably also add Leenock for zerg. July is a 3 time OSL champion. Zenio, Check and InCa were top of the line during beta and got respectable places in GSL1-3. Sangho was a consistent BW proleague player who only picked up SC2 recently. All of the above players have strong solid playstyles, but just haven't achieved any big results yet. They're certainly just as talented as any of the Terrans on that list. How would you know, that they wouldn't be making better results if they had played Terran instead? Leenock is good, but overhyped by Tastetosis. Hyperdub and Rain are way overrated (I would put Choya before them), but I would agree with Top, Ensnare, Maka and TheSTC (if he still played). So 6 for Z, 6 for P, and 9 for T.
July and Sangho were great BW players, but they don't really have the SC2 results (Rain, Choya, Hyperdub, Leenock, and Clide all have better GSL results). I think if you want to include those, you should include the other five. Which would be 7 Zergs, 7 Protoss, and 12 Terrans. Which makes 46% Terrans. If you don't include any of them, it would be 5 Zergs, 5 Protoss, and 9 Terran, which makes 47%. If you include July and Sangho, and not the other five, 43% Terrans.
That's pretty high, and would account for 47.5% in the top 8.
If you want to think about how the top 4 is 75% Terran, you should probably only look at those players who really would be in top 4. These would be:
Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer
Protoss: MC, (Genius, HongUn, and Tester are iffy, so I'll count it as 1.5)
Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, Nada
This makes 53% Terran. Obviously this isn't as high as 75%. It was kind of a weird tournament though, FruitDealer, MC, Genius, Hongun, and Boxer didn't make it out of group stages (Of these, only MC lost to terrans, so you can't really blame terran imbalance for that). Notice that most of these players who didn't get out of group stages are not terran.
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Man... Where´s the "Players from the others races suck hard compared to MVP , Jinro , MKP and Nada? " thats my opinion... im sorry man , but if other zerg players or protoss players played as good as Nestea or MC it could be different..
Nestea its the best zerg like 2X better than Idra , doesnt quit even when the game seems lost , smiles and talks to us fans , that sometimes just like to see a smile and wise words ..
MC is on a completely different level than other protoss players , a simple 4 or 5 warpgate by MC is much more powerfull and well-timed than any other protoss! See Tester ( tsl-sks) vs MVP and see Jinro vs MC , see the difference between the best protoss and a code S protoss..
this kind of polls just bring more stupid comments about imbalances .. Nada seemed like a potential winner of the GSL yet against MKP he looked like a normal player , so.. what do you have to say about that? Nerf terran ? its to powerfull for TvT?
What i saw is a player that is half a year ahead of all others, MKP showed perfect timings of doing things , showed Fast expands every game and showed improvisation!!! improvisation is so beautifull in this game..
damm i saw him win against NADA AND JINRO with just marines! Marine is a tier 1 unit man.. you dont see the rest of the terran play with just marines do you ? why is that? i tell you ...
because they can´t do it , they can´t compare to that , thats like a Ferrari F-40 and a Ferrari Enzo..
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This thread is essentially a giant lightbulb for the annoying insects that are balance whiners. The OP doesn't really want to know the reason why terrans are having "so much success" in GSL, he already has his theory (terran imba) and wants to have other people who think the same come and make lots of noise about it.
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I think it is player preference...have you ever seen a terran winning something big?
From my point of view the game is fine atm...just need some more maps.
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I think its a mix between maps and race balance. Terran has so many openings, and such a solid way to tech overall. Their tier 1 unit is a dps monster, and its the only race who can effectively drop. (1 dropship, 8 marines) The dps \ cost \ effectiveness is 10 times higher then the other races. They just have all these small advantages all over the board. Scouting, mineral gathering, all units ranged, PF, sensor towers, very effective units. All those small advantages added up makes for quite an advantage. Its just easier and more forgiving to play solid as Terran compared to Zerg and Protoss
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even if the game would be fairly balanced in the future, still someone would complain...thats life
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I think it is because Terran can be played save. Always. And since most Tourneys right now are best of one / best of three on preelimination (and remember the first 3 GSLs had also pretourneys), you will have most succes with the race you can play most savely. If the final of a Tourney is not TvT, mostlikely the Terran will lose, because in a best of 5 you can start feeling your enemy, which is super important for the drone poker Zergs have to play and the russian build order Roulette Protoss are forced into.
Not one of the GSLs so far was won by a Terran - GSL 4 had a lot of bo1 so far, but if the finals are not TvT, there most likely won't be a Terran winner this time either.
Just my 2 cents.
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On January 20 2011 21:03 NikonTC wrote:
This thread is essentially a giant lightbulb for the annoying insects that are balance whiners. The OP doesn't really want to know the reason why terrans are having "so much success" in GSL, he already has his theory (terran imba) and wants to have other people who think the same come and make lots of noise about it.
you've been constantly whining about this; it's one thing to try to defend your race but there are some good discussion going around. there are other people also curious why T has been so successful in GSL, you just want to shush all the people who complain about T, its really obvious why
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I think on balanced maps and balanced spawn positions, Terran enjoy no substantial advantage over zerg. The problem is that just a little under half the times you get very bad maps or bad spawns. Delta Quadrant, Lost Temple, Steppes of War, Jungle Basin, close position Metapolis, horizontal position shakearus, are very imbalanced in favour of terran against zerg. Jinro agreed with this sentiment in the gsl interview after the round of 8. Those positions may make terran as a race seem more imbalanced than it maybe is.
On balanced positions, the game seems pretty fair in ZvT. Maps with relatively open center and sizable push distances can let zerg drone up and actually have a sizable economy, without dying in the first ten minutes to some post-expansion 4 rax bio "poke", makes for far more entertaining games. Marine scv allins, I feel, can be resolved by having a tighter natural choke, although I'm not certain on that as it may affect other things. There is this perception that maps that doesn't allow you to take advantage of zergs as terran automatically are zerg favoured, which is a ridiculous sentiment. This stims from the illusion that terran cannot keep up in macro games, which understandably can happen if you just got stomped by a zerg player better than yourself, who make use of your missed timings, etc. If the opponent has better mechanics that are not micro related, it can seem like your macro cannot keep up due to racial reasons. I see, in most games when the terran actually go for a proper 3rd base timing, that terran has no issue keeping up with Z, especially with a planetary gaurding against counters . The few maps that are zerg favoured (scrap station, cross position shakearus), moreover, do not favour zerg nearly as much as Steppes favours Terran. Zerg has maybe a 55% chance of winning on these "imbalanced" maps, compared to say 80% for terrans on Steppes.
making larger maps would definitely not make the game imbalanced in Z's favour. Terran drawns benefits to a large map as well, especially with planetary fortresses. Some maps may favour Z if the air distance or the push distance is skewed, but that shouldn't be imbalanced to an unacceptable level, as current blizzard map pools are for terrans.
Conclusion: ZvT is imbalanced only because of the map pools.
PvT seems relatively balanced to me, and ZvP is a different story, but that's not part of this thread.
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I think we can all come to the conclusion that Zerg and Protoss is overpowered. They've won both s1 s2 and s3 of gsl. NERF P AND Z!
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For me, definitely maps - from a protoss perspective.
The close positions are hard to digest for protoss. Protoss may have it easier than zerg, but still they have to gamble. If toss goes early expo against a planned timing-push, he already fights an uphill battle. On bigger maps, the timing pushs would be way less effective. As opposed to BW, terrans now have a really good early game mobility which makes punishing greedy play very easy on small maps. Toss on the other hand also has a strong early game composition, but against this terran has (was designed to have) bunkers and repair.
The combination of good defense and good and mobile early game gives terran more options on small maps/close positions, which makes them more flexible to play. This is also why we very often see very good PvT if the build order poker doesn't give one side an advantage (meaning no 4 gate vs 1/1/1 and no timing push vs early expo play). On bigger maps the game would definitely be less dependent on the "correct" opening.
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I tend do think it's just much easier to be consistent while playing Terran, than with the other races. The potential for game-ending mistakes seems higher for Zerg and Protoss (let's pretend 4gate doesn't exist for the time being, and all Protosses play a proper macro style). Zergs often complain about how hard it is to live through the first 10 minutes of the match with imperfect scouting information, and how a bad call can just make you lose right there. With Protoss, it's like Tyler said during a SotG some time ago - a Protoss playing perfectly looks amazing, and feels untouchable, but one mistake can just make you lose the game instantly, or put you significantly behind. And Protoss are really bad at playing from behind. There's a reason you sometimes see really good Protoss players look like noobs (like Tester vs mvp) - all it takes is one mistake.
Think to yourself:
How many times have you seen a Zerg successfully playing from behind and winning? What about a Protoss? And how about a Terran?
This doesn't mean the game is imbalanced, of course. But imo, it does explain the Terran dominance, and is in line with how the games actually play out.
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The sample size of GSL winners or top finalists is way too small to be statistically meaningful.
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On January 20 2011 21:08 lastmotion wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 21:03 NikonTC wrote:
This thread is essentially a giant lightbulb for the annoying insects that are balance whiners. The OP doesn't really want to know the reason why terrans are having "so much success" in GSL, he already has his theory (terran imba) and wants to have other people who think the same come and make lots of noise about it.
you've been constantly whining about this; it's one thing to try to defend your race but there are some good discussion going around. there are other people also curious why T has been so successful in GSL, you just want to shush all the people who complain about T, its really obvious why
I thought someone might bring that up. And beleive me threads like this make me seriously consider switching my main race from terran. Not because of self respect, or because i think terran is OP, but because I don't like playing a race and having to worry that the voices of a very vocal minority might actually end up having an effect on the balance of the game (again).
And there is no good discussion being done in this thread that hasn't already been discussed in better threads. This thread was just a honey trap for people that think a certain way (terran imba) and a place for them to all come in and confirm "Its ok guys there's several of us, its ok to think this way".
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On January 20 2011 21:02 jeeneeus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 20:33 teamsolid wrote:On January 20 2011 20:20 jeeneeus wrote:On January 20 2011 20:10 teamsolid wrote:On January 20 2011 20:02 jeeneeus wrote:
I think the most important reason that terrans are doing so well is that there are just so many more great terran players. Here's a list of some of the greatest Korean players by race:
Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer, IdrA
Protoss: MC, Genius, HongUn, Tester
Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, NaDa, Rainbow, Cliiiide
Obviously you could say that the reason there are so many good terran players is because terran is op, but I think these players would be really good regardless of race, as they all have really solid macro and micro. You left out for Zerg: Zenio, Check, July and for Protoss: Sangho, InCa. Any of them would have a decent shot against any Terran on that list, except maybe MVP. Those guys aren't the cream of the crop. If you're gonna include those players, then for terran you can add Top, Ensnare, Maka, Hyperdub, Rain (super iffy but he did get second in GSL 3), TheSTC (Although, he never got to play GSL because of the army thing, he's still one of my favorite players). Probably also add Leenock for zerg. July is a 3 time OSL champion. Zenio, Check and InCa were top of the line during beta and got respectable places in GSL1-3. Sangho was a consistent BW proleague player who only picked up SC2 recently. All of the above players have strong solid playstyles, but just haven't achieved any big results yet. They're certainly just as talented as any of the Terrans on that list. How would you know, that they wouldn't be making better results if they had played Terran instead? Leenock is good, but overhyped by Tastetosis. Hyperdub and Rain are way overrated (I would put Choya before them), but I would agree with Top, Ensnare, Maka and TheSTC (if he still played). So 6 for Z, 6 for P, and 9 for T. July and Sangho were great BW players, but they don't really have the SC2 results (Rain, Choya, Hyperdub, Leenock, and Clide all have better GSL results). I think if you want to include those, you should include the other five. Which would be 7 Zergs, 7 Protoss, and 12 Terrans. Which makes 46% Terrans. If you don't include any of them, it would be 5 Zergs, 5 Protoss, and 9 Terran, which makes 47%. If you include July and Sangho, and not the other five, 43% Terrans. That's pretty high, and would account for 47.5% in the top 8. If you want to think about how the top 4 is 75% Terran, you should probably only look at those players who really would be in top 4. These would be: Zerg: Nestea, FruitDealer Protoss: MC, (Genius, HongUn, and Tester are iffy, so I'll count it as 1.5) Terran: BoxeR, Jinro, MarineKing, MVP, Nada This makes 53% Terran. Obviously this isn't as high as 75%. It was kind of a weird tournament though, FruitDealer, MC, Genius, Hongun, and Boxer didn't make it out of group stages (Of these, only MC lost to terrans, so you can't really blame terran imbalance for that). Notice that most of these players who didn't get out of group stages are not terran.
You can't judge a player simply by looking at GSL results. BitByBitPrime got to Round of 16. Is he better than July? Hell no. It's probably a combination of bad luck/bad maps/whatever reason else that July, Sangho, InCa, Top aren't in Code S (yet). But anyways, I suppose the Ro4 results could be a result of random chance or bad map pool. We'll just have to see if this trend continues.
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On January 20 2011 21:16 NikonTC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2011 21:08 lastmotion wrote:On January 20 2011 21:03 NikonTC wrote:
This thread is essentially a giant lightbulb for the annoying insects that are balance whiners. The OP doesn't really want to know the reason why terrans are having "so much success" in GSL, he already has his theory (terran imba) and wants to have other people who think the same come and make lots of noise about it.
you've been constantly whining about this; it's one thing to try to defend your race but there are some good discussion going around. there are other people also curious why T has been so successful in GSL, you just want to shush all the people who complain about T, its really obvious why I thought someone might bring that up. And beleive me threads like this make me seriously consider switching my main race from terran. Not because of self respect, or because i think terran is OP, but because I don't like playing a race and having to worry that the voices of a very vocal minority might actually end up having an effect on the balance of the game (again). And there is no good discussion being done in this thread that hasn't already been discussed in better threads. This thread was just a honey trap for people that think a certain way (terran imba) and a place for them to all come in and confirm "Its ok guys there's several of us, its ok to think this way".
Well, if you make a thread titled "why are zerg players succeeding so much more in tournaments", I don't know what sort of replies it would get... it will be an interesting experiment. Anyways I digress..
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3/4 terrans in the GSL Code S Ro4, 4/4 in the GSL Code A Ro4, 8/10 at the IEM. Clearly this isn't indicating any sort of terran dominance over the other races? Go4Sc2 cup is another good example, with at least one terran mirror in nearly every semi final, often times even two.
Of course player of other races can overcome this terran dominace with superior skill, as Fruitdealer, NesTea and MC have shown, but that doesn't mean terra hasn't been the dominant race since the launch of Sc2.
If new maps alone will fix the issues is hard to say. First those new maps have to be used for quite some time.
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EPT
