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On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers.
Any of the units you mentioned can outrange Roaches/Lings and therefore just attack moving doesn't prove anything.
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nm chise already covered it
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I'm just going to say what I think  .
To me it seems each race was made for a certain style. Protoss is the most agressive than the others and allows cheesier tactics to work than the other races, it is also very micro intensive. Zerg on the other hand is the meant to be the least agressive in the earlier sections of the game, they are meant to just build up to a huge army and are the unstoppable in the late game and are very macro intensive.
Terran to me seem like the middle race they have a blanced macro/micro style they are extreamly versatile. They are not as agressive as protoss but much more than zerg.
If I'm a top level player who likes to cheese and play normal games terran seems like the best race to go so I think more people prefer it. We can clearly see when used in the right hands Zerg and Protoss absolutely slaughter terran who are maybe just slightly worse players just look at Nestea and MC with there almost unstoppable play.
In my opinon none of the races are Overpowered but I feel they way they play makes the better players choose terran and they can be more succesful with them as they are so versatile. Also seeing as this is wings of liberty I believe that Terran are probably the most polished race in the game which may make people choose them more.
The maps are somewhat more unbalanced in certain matchups but not to the extent where terran can't loose.
Thats just my opinion I just joined to post that. I'm sure a lot of people disagree but thats your right I really don't think that terran need to be nerfed. If anything Zerg need a small buff really, as a Protoss player I feel that they are balanced pretty well all things considered.
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On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss...
For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches.
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I would say its a measure of what I would call race dynamics, more than race imbalance. So far in the GSL for the various match ups, spawn position changes the win rate for different races dramatically so you could call that map imbalance. There is also timings that favor one race over the other, a lot of the solid Terran timings happen faster than the other races, so in a competitive environment, of course that race that gets the earlier chance to smash his opponent will often do so.
So yes i would say that it comes down to a sort of imbalance, but many changes alter the game dramatically. I would wait to see how balanced the new maps are, because they look very well rounded, and on the more well rounded maps the game is much closer to a balanced state, because the balance is inherently close already.
Where as on jungle basin, for example, it is just mind bogglingly poor for balance IMO.
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On January 21 2011 06:22 Chise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. Any of the units you mentioned can outrange Roaches/Lings and therefore just attack moving doesn't prove anything.
Read the sentence after the one you highlighted.
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On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches.
... really.... ANY protoss that see the zerg making that many unit early game will go back the ramp and ff or wall it.... zerg will have a bad economy because he made a lot of unit and he wont be able to use them because of the ramp..... and u just need to make more stalker zealot and take a safe expo after...
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this thread and poll is terrible. three of the options say that terran IS imba, the other two that it is just a coincidence
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On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches.
As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. No sentries are not weak offensively, that is hilariously wrong. Everyone knows zealots are bad against roaches. Stalkers can kite roaches for a very long time and then just regen when they get hurt. If you micro correctly you can abuse the range with stalkers, marines, and marauders, your micro was poor and it is the larger numbers that really matter.
With those small numbers it only means zerg had to make units instead of drones and is behind economically, as the game goes on, their cost effectiveness becomes lower and lower.
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Terran would be OP if:
They had flying early game DTs.
They had super harvesters that can be thrown down multiple times.
They had static anti air with splash damage with a high rate of fire that builds incredible fast.....that has an upgrade.
They had a protective shell for their units that they can get an instant refund for at any given time....that has an upgrade.
They had a supertank for an expansion that can be repaired.
They had a unit that had the longest range in the game that dealt massive amounts of splash damage that also has the smartest AI in the game which gave it zero overkill.
They had an early game harassing mineral costing only unit that had splash damage with no risk and high reward.
They had a flying dropship medic.
They they could tech to multiple paths off one base.
They could scout by just clicking a spot and viewing instantly what is at the location....AT THE COST OF A PRECIOUS MULE HOW WILL I EVER 6 RAX??!?! NOOOOOOO
Hm...wait they have all of those don't they?
Given you could do the same thing for Toss and Zerg, but the list of stupid things they have would be so much less, and it would be obvious if you tried to force some of the stuff.
Edit- Maybe not Zerg, lolol.
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I feel like no matter the maps / balance changes there will still always be debates. I've seen every race beat each other in great matches before so I'm just going to PLAY THE GAME.
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On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range.
Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier.
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On January 21 2011 06:34 Demarini wrote:
Terran would be OP if:
They had flying early game DTs.
They had super harvesters that can be thrown down multiple times.
They had static anti air with splash damage with a high rate of fire that builds incredible fast.....that has an upgrade.
They had a protective shell for their units that they can get an instant refund for at any given time....that has an upgrade.
They had a supertank for an expansion that can be repaired.
They had a unit that had the longest range in the game that dealt massive amounts of splash damage that also has the smartest AI in the game which gave it zero overkill.
They had an early game harassing mineral costing only unit that had splash damage with no risk and high reward.
They had a flying dropship medic.
They they could tech to multiple paths off one base.
They could scout by just clicking a spot and viewing instantly what is at the location....AT THE COST OF A PRECIOUS MULE HOW WILL I EVER 6 RAX??!?! NOOOOOOO
Hm...wait they have all of those don't they?
Given you could do the same thing for Toss and Zerg, but the list of stupid things they have would be so much less, and it would be obvious if you tried to force some of the stuff.
Edit- Maybe not Zerg, lolol.
hahahah thats a win sir
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On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier.
Yeah if all you care about is defending it's easy as fucking pie, but you will be economically behind after a few minutes.
Literally all terran has to do is see zerg's early army, hide behind his wall and ignore it, and he is now soaring ahead economically.
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On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier.
Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude....
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On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude....
Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries.
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On January 21 2011 01:28 okrane wrote:
My take on the matter is not that Terran is imbalanced. Its just that the ZvT and PvT match-ups contain fucked up circumstances in the early game which can lead to auto-wins for Terrans also while being completely safe the whole time.
This means, when facing Terran the Protoss and Zerg will always have an x% chance of a stupid loss and (100-x)% chance of a balanced match-up.These are factored by:
1) Maps.
* Cliff Drops
* Short Rush Distance
* Large Ramps (for P)
* Non Scouted All-Ins
2) Timings
For Zergs:
* Bunker Rushes
* 2rax Marine
For Protoss:
* Missed ForceFields
* Stim Timing Pushes
* Banshees with cloak against non-robo
* some Raven Timings.
If not for these things the match-ups go pretty much well. The imbalance we're seing is simply the fact that playing Terran equals to auto-wins in some situations, which in high ranked play can occur quite often.
If you want to verify my hypothesys just check all PvT and ZvTs in the GSL and count the number of retarded wins Terrans got and cross reference them with the number of retarded wins of P and Z vs T.
You will see that Terran early game is completely safe from most crap all while having small opportunities for easy wins.
Mostly true. There are some build order losses for Terran, but it's much more rare. They definitely have the safest early game. And since they are such a huge bitch to scout... that compounds the problem. And the fact that they can hide a fast expand is sort of nuts.
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On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries.
lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player?
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Seriously? this discussion has been discussed like 1000 times if i recall it right? If there is many zergs playing you will say the same thing, just give it a break and let the game evolve
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Terran does require less skill? im zerg and to me its much more comfortable to have all my larva in 1 simple button instead of having to create multiple barracks/factories and create from all them at the same time. Same goes to protoss, al gateways in 1 button, shift spam, you get your army.
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EPT
