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On January 21 2011 06:19 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 05:51 AlBundy wrote:
About Zerg I think that the standard builds (14 hatch, 14 pool, 14 hatch/15 pool, you name it) are getting a bit old and that's why Terran feel so comfortable early game. I think there is definitely a balance between the 1-base all-in builds and the 14/15 hatch builds. I don't see any reason why Zerg couldn't come up with BOs that allows pressure, expanding, mid-game transitions etc.
please for the love of god mister AlBundy, go out on ladder, play zerg, evolve a build or strategy that allows you to put pressure (as in serious pressure (that directly wins you games at least 10 % of the time on equal skill)) in the early game on a non-zerg opponent while having an equal or greater economy than said opponent at all times during the game, while being flexible enough to instantly defend any all-in or cheese. when you have done this, please, tell me about it! because I have given up hope on an aggressive non all-in for zerg. as a matter of fact, Listen up TL community! all zerg players out there! I give you a challenge! evolve a build or strategy that satisfies the above conditions, and make a thread about it! and if you find that this is impossible, make a thread detailing (down to everything) exactly why you can state that that is true by only using valid facts that can be measured or known! (ex: timings, build times, training times, larvae spawn etc.) p.s. Suddenly. Motivation.
I've done this...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=160550
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fail_Pool_Rush_(vs_Protoss)
Catz is known for doing the same thing all the time... so much so that a lot of P will go with specific BOs to counter this when they play against him...
Zerg can be aggressive in the early game... just not vs T...
I am still mulling over things and may have a working aggressive opener vs T soon enough, but my play time is limited during the week.
What do I get for winning the challenge?
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3 gsls is not enough data to make these assumptions
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On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 06:00 branflakes14 wrote:
What would happen if instead of either Droning hard or producing units hard, a Zerg player produced Drones from their Larva at the same rate a Terran/Protoss produces workers, and used the other Larva to produce units over time? Would the Zerg be more prepared for pushes while still having a similar economy to their opponent, even on one base? Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player?
Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin.
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On January 21 2011 06:34 Demarini wrote:Terran would be OP if: + Show Spoiler +They had flying early game DTs.
They had super harvesters that can be thrown down multiple times.
They had static anti air with splash damage with a high rate of fire that builds incredible fast.....that has an upgrade.
They had a protective shell for their units that they can get an instant refund for at any given time....that has an upgrade.
They had a supertank for an expansion that can be repaired.
They had a unit that had the longest range in the game that dealt massive amounts of splash damage that also has the smartest AI in the game which gave it zero overkill.
They had an early game harassing mineral costing only unit that had splash damage with no risk and high reward.
They had a flying dropship medic.
They they could tech to multiple paths off one base.
They could scout by just clicking a spot and viewing instantly what is at the location....AT THE COST OF A PRECIOUS MULE HOW WILL I EVER 6 RAX??!?! NOOOOOOO
Hm...wait they have all of those don't they?
Given you could do the same thing for Toss and Zerg, but the list of stupid things they have would be so much less, and it would be obvious if you tried to force some of the stuff.
Edit- Maybe not Zerg, lolol.
Zerg would be op if...
List funny exaggerations of their economic advantage, extreme mobility, and superior macro production in the late game. Oh, and maphack with creep tumors. Make sure these advantages sound as absurdly op as possible. Perhaps compare the baneling to a moving suicidal siege tank, or the mutalisk to being a flying hellion that can outrun almost every anti-air unit in the game.
The list of stupid things would be really easy to make.
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On January 21 2011 04:13 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 04:10 jamesmax wrote:On January 21 2011 03:46 Chise wrote:On January 21 2011 03:40 hAxel wrote:
Terran Success in GSL so far is 0%
Made my day. Runner up in every gsl and the majority of the top 8s being heavily terran not good enough? I'm sure those ro8 players would have preferred first place and 87k. Of course unless you play Zerg you don't deserve to ever win a game. Why is this thread still open :S
You can act all defensive about your race and stuff, but you have to realize that this problem can possibly destroy sc2 as an esport. GSL is not the only tournament with this problem.
Spectators dont want to see terran games all the time.
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On January 21 2011 06:45 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:
[quote]
Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player? Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin.
Omg dude, 4 speedling into one zealot means nothing, and if you try to micro melee vs. melee with a slower unit it only lets the lings get free hits lol
I don't need the freaking unit tester, I've actually killed one zealot with 3 lings before, believe it or not. If you micro the lings really good, none will even die! Now I'll just go mass ling vs mass zealot lol
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er, no offense u guys but zealots are so good vs lings that u literally get them to counter lings. just because 4 lings beat 1 zealot doesnt make that not true. 2 zerglings beat 1 marine too zerglings obv the better unit am i right?
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is it morning in amerika or something ... suddenly the OP battle on TL blew up again 
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On January 21 2011 06:46 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:45 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:
[quote]
Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player? Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin. Omg dude, 4 speedling into one zealot means nothing, and if you try to micro melee vs. melee with a slower unit it only lets the lings get free hits lol I don't need the freaking unit tester, I've actually killed one zealot with 3 lings before, believe it or not. If you micro the lings really good, none will even die! Now I'll just go mass ling vs mass zealot lol
Why mention mass units when I was talking about defending in the early game? You aren't even trying to refute the point.
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Terran was the main race played during the campaign, so a lot of the new players drifted in that direction. Also, I think before the "IMBA Wars" broke out, a lot of players actually spent time trying to figure out how to play with what they had. I wasn't in the beta personally, but even with any complaining, players appeared to take solace in the fact this was a beta so things could change relatively quickly. So more focus was on developing what you had before jumping to "IMBA".
The game certainly has errors and issues that need to be addressed at a fundamental level by Blizzard. But overall I think a major contributing factor has been the echo chamber approach to Starcraft 2. If a pro hints at a potential IMBA from his experience in 6-10 hour a day practice sessions against top players, everyone from Bronze to Master echos that sentiment with barely a fraction of personal experience to back it up.
Think what the state of the game could be if players directed all this energy and motivation from hammering on Blizzards door about issues and imbalances, and instead put it towards developing ways around issues with the tools at hand. I think we would have a much high quality competitive platform for the community stand on, who if they did declare IMBA, may be taken more seriously by the powers that be instead of each race calling IMBA on every little thing from the pixel placement to box art.
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On January 21 2011 06:45 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:06 Chise wrote:
[quote]
Zerg would lose, because Zerg units are not cost effective. Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player? Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin.
Put the Zealot in between a pylon and gateway on Hold Position.
Damn I'm winning challenges left and right today...
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Australia8532 Posts
On January 21 2011 06:35 Coutcha wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:34 Demarini wrote:
Terran would be OP if:
They had flying early game DTs.
They had super harvesters that can be thrown down multiple times.
They had static anti air with splash damage with a high rate of fire that builds incredible fast.....that has an upgrade.
They had a protective shell for their units that they can get an instant refund for at any given time....that has an upgrade.
They had a supertank for an expansion that can be repaired.
They had a unit that had the longest range in the game that dealt massive amounts of splash damage that also has the smartest AI in the game which gave it zero overkill.
They had an early game harassing mineral costing only unit that had splash damage with no risk and high reward.
They had a flying dropship medic.
They they could tech to multiple paths off one base.
They could scout by just clicking a spot and viewing instantly what is at the location....AT THE COST OF A PRECIOUS MULE HOW WILL I EVER 6 RAX??!?! NOOOOOOO
Hm...wait they have all of those don't they?
Given you could do the same thing for Toss and Zerg, but the list of stupid things they have would be so much less, and it would be obvious if you tried to force some of the stuff.
Edit- Maybe not Zerg, lolol. hahahah thats a win sir 
Protoss would be overpowered if:
- They had an insta-cloaked unit that one shotted drones without any upgrades
- They had an insta-cloaked detection unit that could move and have a speed upgrade that was also ridiculously cheap
- They had an ability that made things build faster; allowing more probe production, faster unit production, quicker warp gate cooldown etc (don't get mad just because you don't have the macro to use it all game)
- They had static air defence that also shot ground units with a pretty decent rate of fire; so when they wish to turtle against air AND ground they only have to build one defensive structure
- If they had shields that just regenerated making their units invulnerable
- They have units that can: Pick up ground units, blink, charge, mass recall, cloak.. i could do this all day..
The point is each race has it's own attributes that contribute to the nature of that race.. Warpgate technology should be considered the single most imba thing in this game - but it's not because it is the benefit of playing Protoss.. I really don't want to have to debate with you about "omg Terran so imba" because that would just result in more balance whine from you.. I find it funny when i look at the option of the polls and the amount of people voting for the first option; kind of sad really.. the game will develop, people will discover optimal timings, unit composition and build orders and all this balance bullshit will be a thing of the past..
But until then if it helps you sleep at night.. terran is OP man :/
edit: quoted wrong post lol it was in reference to the one before..
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
On January 21 2011 06:46 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:34 Demarini wrote:Terran would be OP if: + Show Spoiler +They had flying early game DTs.
They had super harvesters that can be thrown down multiple times.
They had static anti air with splash damage with a high rate of fire that builds incredible fast.....that has an upgrade.
They had a protective shell for their units that they can get an instant refund for at any given time....that has an upgrade.
They had a supertank for an expansion that can be repaired.
They had a unit that had the longest range in the game that dealt massive amounts of splash damage that also has the smartest AI in the game which gave it zero overkill.
They had an early game harassing mineral costing only unit that had splash damage with no risk and high reward.
They had a flying dropship medic.
They they could tech to multiple paths off one base.
They could scout by just clicking a spot and viewing instantly what is at the location....AT THE COST OF A PRECIOUS MULE HOW WILL I EVER 6 RAX??!?! NOOOOOOO
Hm...wait they have all of those don't they?
Given you could do the same thing for Toss and Zerg, but the list of stupid things they have would be so much less, and it would be obvious if you tried to force some of the stuff.
Edit- Maybe not Zerg, lolol. Zerg would be op if... List funny exaggerations of their economic advantage, extreme mobility, and superior macro production in the late game. Oh, and maphack with creep tumors. Make sure these advantages sound as absurdly op as possible. Perhaps compare the baneling to a moving suicidal siege tank, or the mutalisk to being a flying hellion that can outrun almost every anti-air unit in the game. The list of stupid things would be really easy to make.
Protoss would be op if...
List funny exaggerations of their ability to produce buildings without giving up mining time / sacrificing drones, ability to dump both minerals and gas through warpgates, and instant warp-ins at any pylon (OR DROPSHIP) regardless of prod fac location of tier 1-2 units, resulting in never-ending pushes. Oh, and maphack with (now cheaper!) observers. Make sure these advantages sound as obsurdly op as possible. Perhaps compare the photon cannon to a faster-healing spine crawler spore crawler gestalt, or the dark templar to a permanently cloaked banshee that one-shots every worker in the game.
The list of stupid things would be really easy to make with any race.
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I think the ladder maps, as they stand, are fairly unbalanced, some of them pretty strongly in favor of a very specific style of 1-2 base all-in play. The cliffs available on LT and Delta Quad are ridiculous, and Steppes is just BAD and needs to go away.
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EDIT: Ninja'd by bkrow. I tip my hat to you sir
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On January 21 2011 06:51 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:45 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:17 branflakes14 wrote:
[quote]
Stalkers survive a 1 on 1 with a Roach with just 20 health, despite costing almost double, and 4 Speedlings beats a Zealot any day of the week even with Zealot micro to prevent a surround. And as for Terran, Zerglings and Roaches are MORE than enough to hold off a stim MM push. Really. I'm in the unit test map right now, and 10 Speedlings + 3 Roaches is beating 5 Marines and 3 Marauders (which actually costs more) even when the Terran units stim. I'm just attack moving of course, but for the extra minerals the Terran has spent on those Marauders, the Zerg could get another 6 Lings, which would tip the balance even further in his favour. In fact, I'll try it with those extra Lings now, and micro the Terran units. Haha, not even fucking close. How anyone can say Zerg units aren't cost effective is beyond me, especially when I wasn't even doing these units tests on creep and didn't use any Spine Crawlers. use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss... For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player? Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin. Put the Zealot in between a pylon and gateway on Hold Position. Damn I'm winning challenges left and right today...
I dunno, a Pylon and a Gateway is a big investment when you're trying to attack a Zerg base.
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Sorry, but the Protoss ones don't sound nearly as awesome as the Terran ones do...
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On January 21 2011 06:53 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 21 2011 06:45 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:21 Coutcha wrote:
[quote]
use micro.... and real army number try 15 marine with stim vs zerling marine will pwn them.... same maro pwn roach and protoss can use ff to kill z unit without many loss...
For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player? Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin. Put the Zealot in between a pylon and gateway on Hold Position. Damn I'm winning challenges left and right today... I dunno, a Pylon and a Gateway is a big investment when you're trying to attack a Zerg base.
ok, smaller investment, put the zealot next to another zealot!
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No amount of facepalms can be enough for what has been said in this thread.
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On January 21 2011 06:54 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:53 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 21 2011 06:45 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:26 branflakes14 wrote:
[quote]
For my last test I did use micro, and the Zerg units won by a huge margin, despite actually costing 75 gas less and having no creep advantage. And as I was testing the viability of slowly producing units in the early game as opposed to hard Droning/units, I was keeping the Terran army size reasonably small. And admittedly I haven't factored Force Field into this, but Sentries themselves are pretty weak offensively and use up the gas of 2 Stalkers, meaning more Zealots, which (you can test this yourself if you don't believe me) don't even hold up to equal resources of Lings, let alone Roaches. As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range. Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player? Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin. Put the Zealot in between a pylon and gateway on Hold Position. Damn I'm winning challenges left and right today... I dunno, a Pylon and a Gateway is a big investment when you're trying to attack a Zerg base. ok, smaller investment, put the zealot next to another zealot!
Nah bro that would require too much micro you know how zealots automatically spread 10 feet from each other so they can all be surrounded by lings plus protoss doesn't have any spells to create choke points on the fly so they're pretty much fucked.
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someone should lock this thread, its completely disintegrated into a pointless flame war.
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On January 21 2011 06:57 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2011 06:54 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 21 2011 06:53 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:51 Jermstuddog wrote:On January 21 2011 06:45 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:39 Treemonkeys wrote:On January 21 2011 06:38 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:36 Coutcha wrote:On January 21 2011 06:35 branflakes14 wrote:On January 21 2011 06:32 Treemonkeys wrote:
[quote]
As the numbers increase, terran and protoss cost effectiveness increases drastically compared to zerg, basically because of range.
Which means that in the early game when unit numbers are small, Zerg units are more cost effective and if anything should mean that defending is easier. Really is that why people BLOCK THE RAMP.... omg dude.... Keep your units at the bottom of your ramp and target the Sentries. lol that's a great way to get your lings shredded by zealots...or are these sentries not being controlled by a competent player? Go into the unit test map, make 4 Speedling, attack move them into a Zealot, micro the Zealot as much as you like to prevent a surround. The Zealot will lose every time by a huge margin. Put the Zealot in between a pylon and gateway on Hold Position. Damn I'm winning challenges left and right today... I dunno, a Pylon and a Gateway is a big investment when you're trying to attack a Zerg base. ok, smaller investment, put the zealot next to another zealot! Nah bro that would require too much micro you know how zealots automatically spread 10 feet from each other so they can all be surrounded by lings plus protoss doesn't have any spells to create choke points on the fly so they're pretty much fucked.
You're right, Zerg is horribly underpowered, has no way of defending an early push, and should instantly be buffed. ((
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EPT
