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I offer to Team Liquid, my new favorite ZvP opening, the Fail Pool.
Obligatory Replays:
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=90
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=91
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=92
I will add more good replays as they come.
http://nerdnugget.com/download/file.php?id=93
This is a terrible replay in general, but at the 3 minute mark, it has a great example of "body blocking"
The Zealot can't be spawned from the side of the gateway that he wants to because I am taking up all the room with my zerglings.
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Basic Idea
This is a micro-intensive strategy for small-medium rush distance maps, mostly the 2 player maps.
It starts out like your standard 7 pool rush.
But while the pool is building, I squeeze out 2 more drones and an Overlord, this delays your 3rd and 4th set of Zerglings by about 2-3 seconds. After your 8 lings are out, you go back to making drones.
Once the first 3 Zergling eggs are in the making, send 1 drone to my opponents base. This drone will reach the base about 5 seconds before your zerglings and give you a heads up on what the Protoss players defense is going to be.
This is where the details start to get rough, but every defense I've seen has a proper response.
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Managing Your Lings
If there is any gaps left open at all, run straight to the probes and start harassing. The goal is not necessarily to kill probes, but to keep them from mining. If all the probes are attacking your lings, back up unless you have the option of fighting in a choke point.
If there are no gaps left open and a pylon can be attacked by 3 or more lings, that is the weak point in his wall, strike there, use your other zerglings to block the closest side of the gateway, forcing their zealot to spawn on the inside of their base rather than the outside, you can sometimes kill an exposed pylon before a cannon finishes and end the game right there.
If there is a cannon already in the works before you even get there, your attack has already been successful, attack until the cannon is finished, then back up and power drone.
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Managing Your Macro
Back at your base, just keep pumping drones and send a drone to expand when you have ~275 minerals. Once the hatch is down, still keep pumping drones until you have 150 minerals, then its time for a Queen.
Transition into whatever early game strategy you want with your economic lead on the Protoss player.
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Explanation for why a forge and cannon is a GOOD thing for you in this strategy:
A forge and 2 cannons are 450 minerals that the Protoss player will not be spending on a Cybernetics Core or Assimilator in any sort of a timely manner. Oddly enough, you are about 400 minerals behind yourself. This will delay any sort of aggression he can do against you so while he may have a better economy than you, he will have a hard time putting it to good use, giving you plenty of time to make up the difference.
Discuss.
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if you 8 pool, you can build 2 more drones (to 9), then use a double extractor trick to get back to 7, 3 zerglings, cancel extractor, build overlord, then queen. I think you'll find that's better than overlord first.
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If you play standard, you can win and get out of gold. I'm sorry but this will not work against the higher end more competent players. Even 6 pool rushes aren't that effective anymore once people have learnt to deal them and they make lings faster and reinforce. This is just delaying mining for a few seconds against a good opponent. If you want to put early pressure i'd suggest 10 pooling as it's safer. This just seems gimmicky to me.
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@ GoldenH
I originally played with the idea of an earlier queen to increase drone production.
But in the end, I decided getting the expo up ASAP was more important as it is easier to defend vs any sort of counter push and has a larger impact on your income than an early queen would.
Also, getting 8 drones before the Pool adds another 10 seconds or so for cannons and zealots to build, ruining the timing for busting your way up his ramp.
If you're going to 8 pool, you might as well 13 pool.
@ ThE.SparkZ
Please don't come in here treating me like some noob, I'm currently at 1658 rating in Diamond League, 4th in my Div. Not great, but probably better than you.
Don't ruin my thread by insulting me plz...
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I've used the 7pool numerous times. My build was very similar to yours. It requires a lot of APM to effectively harass toss without losing your lings (practice too). I only used it on 2 people maps. The beginning of my build was exactly like yours. I felt that the majority of protoss's over react to the 7 pool rush b/c they think its a 6 pool rush. They think if they kill your lings its over. I had trouble with the counter attack if my lings died after the harass. Toss's counterattacked with like 5 zealots. I was unable to defend it. I felt this build strained the larvae count. I'll check out your replays tomorrow. I always wanted to make this strategy work.
I tested this build out frequently when i was laddering between the ratings of 1100-1350 diamond but I abandoned the strategy. I initially had a lot of success but when i was got to 1250-1400 i had a lot of trouble fixing it up. I didn't like losing so I stuck with my standard play
Overall, I thought it was a good build. You can macro and basically cheese rush the guy if there is a weakness to his base set up. You can also transition into a fairly level Harvest count. I mainly abandoned it because I didn't like the feeling of being forced to harass. If the ling harass fails or your ling dies early then I think its basically GG because the opponent will counter attack w/ a lot of Zealots.
I played on 2 people maps so the majority of protoss players scouted me for a cheese rush. Some toss respond with Forge and some respond with chrono boosted Zealot. Even though your 6 lings will be able to get inside his base b4 the zealot can come out i felt that with proper micro... the protoss has a better chance of coming out on top then the zerg.
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On October 14 2010 14:19 GoldenH wrote:
if you 8 pool, you can build 2 more drones (to 9), then use a double extractor trick to get back to 7, 3 zerglings, cancel extractor, build overlord, then queen. I think you'll find that's better than overlord first.
Then you realize you might as well 8 pool -> drone, drone, ovie, which will give you 3 larvae when the pool is done, and you won't have to cancle 2 extractors and lose lots of minerals in mining time. Personally I think that's way stronger than 7 pool, if you feel you must open early pool.
By the way this is hard countered easily by the protoss by simply blocking the bottom of zerg's ramp with 2 pylons, which seems un-intuitive but it delays for long enough to get a ling-proof wall at home.
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On October 14 2010 15:22 Adeny wrote:
Then you realize you might as well 8 pool -> drone, drone, ovie, which will give you 3 larvae when the pool is done, and you won't have to cancle 2 extractors and lose lots of minerals in mining time. Personally I think that's way stronger than 7 pool, if you feel you must open early pool.
By the way this is hard countered easily by the protoss by simply blocking the bottom of zerg's ramp with 2 pylons, which seems un-intuitive but it delays for long enough to get a ling-proof wall at home.
The whole point of the 7 pool is to get the ling's in the toss's base before he can get a zealot to block his entrance. Sometimes you will have enough time to kill the pylon that's powering the gateway. I'm pretty sure the 8 pool would not be able to match the timing of 7 pool lings. It might work on steppes of war but it won't work on Xel Naga or jungle basin. The walking distance is way too large.
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Huh, because of the title, i thought this was a joke thread, but it clearly isn't :O
Did this work before patch 1.1 or is it a recent development due to the 5 second zealot delay?
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@OP, sorry I thought you delayed your zerglings more than that, sorry. Very good build.
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I open ALL my ZvP with 2 zealot 1 stalker, and a wall with pylon behind. discuss
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@ ThE.SparkZ
Please don't come in here treating me like some noob, I'm currently at 1658 rating in Diamond League, 4th in my Div. Not great, but probably better than you.
Don't ruin my thread by insulting me plz...[/QUOTE]
there are ppl who get around 2000 by just 4 gating, im sure by cheesing bling bust or these kinds of all ins u can get to 1658....
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@ graphene
This is a good discussion of an idea. He has in NO way said it's fool proof. It is NOT cheesy (ie. relies on not being scouted). It is NOT all-in (ie. leaves him with a massive economic advantage if his attack fails).
Instead it is a smart opening designed at exploting a lot of subtle timings and issues with the current Protoss 'standard' wall-in. If you have nothing to devote to the conversation besides slander, then you shouldn't be posting at all. Jerm isn't trying to e-peen flash or anything. He is purely offering an idea for discussion in a very good manner (showing replays of it working, actually discussing it with other people instead of stating it and leaving). Show some respect.
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On October 14 2010 14:34 ThE.SparkZ wrote:
I'm sorry but this will not work against the higher end more competent players.
I agree with this. I did a build very similar to the one you describe, and it worked like a charm for a while, but as my opponents got better, it started to fail horribly.
edit: that was back in 1.0 though. And who knows? Maybe PvZ opening trends will start to lean more toward susceptible openings as ZvP openings lean toward 15hatch.
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I was mid platinum with T and P then switched to Z and 6 pooled my way to 1500 diamond in 1 day
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Making the protoss build a forge and a cannon does not make him waste 300 minerals. The cannon makes him safe against a lot of rushes zerg can do, so it limits your options; the forge is used for upgrading obviously and upgrades are key in pvz. Most of the games someone did this on me I've been going 5 gate +1 rush out of 1 base and so far it has worked but expanding is also viable as you already have the forge.
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On October 14 2010 16:54 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote:
Making the protoss build a forge and a cannon does not make him waste 300 minerals. The cannon makes him safe against a lot of rushes zerg can do, so it limits your options; the forge is used for upgrading obviously and upgrades are key in pvz. Most of the games someone did this on me I've been going 5 gate +1 rush out of 1 base and so far it has worked but expanding is also viable as you already have the forge.
True, he can still use the forge.
However, by having to go forge + cannon the Protoss is forced to spend to "spend" those minerals earlier than he wants. So he can't eco/tech as fast as he wants to, nor can he pressure Zerg much in the early game. And we all know what happens when you don't pressure a Zerg player. If they are allowed to power drones hard, Zerg really shines.
Also, 5 gate +1 on 1 base? I thought 4 gate was the absolute maximum you could squeeze out of 1 base?
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You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool.
No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle. This way you can't kill any buildings, and you also cant get in.
Ive done a lot of 6/7 pool testing, and it is just not viable because you rely on your opponent playing bad. At the time you realize you wont get in, you have 8-10 drones and he has 15-16 which is 100% game over for equal level opponents.
And even if he makes a forge/cannon, that is not the biggest deal, the 300 minerals are not wasted at all, you also are not only 300 minerals behind, since he has alot more workers. For 15 workers the 1 cannon is just a minor delay, and the forge is often used for +1 attack anyways.
I have done this build a ton, in tourneys, ladder and customs. I won quite often, but it never works against competent players who dont go FE
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Lmao what the hell is this? Assuming the protoss will have a cannon wall and shit?
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Most toss drop a forge when they see an early pool.
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So this thread is.. when your cheese fails.. keep trying ?!?!
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EPT
