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the easiest way to handle all this zerg rushes is just playing forge first in every fuckn game.
i just get a pylon with 9 on one side of the choke and the forge comes with 12 to the other side. if i scout the 6, 7 what ever pool early, sometime i cancel the 12 probe and get the forge with 11 which makes it easier for you.
but even if you scout it late, i just get a gateway to block the entire choke.
btw if you play 12 gateway you can never ever finish a zealot before the lings are at your base. and if you dont scout ridiculous early you cant do something else.
so forge first is just the best option cause you can easily hold this rushes+you can do some cannon cheese to block zerg choke or to block his natural.
on steppes you sometimes need a second pylon behind your first, because he will kill your first pylon before your cannon is finished.
this bo is just save to all kind of rushes+you can open like you want.... you can fe, you can 4-5 gate push, you can do whatever you want.
+you already have to forge for the importan +1 upgrade.
im just happy about every zerg, who tries this, but it nearly never happens now where i am on 1650-1700 diamond level..
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On October 14 2010 18:06 Viruuus wrote:
You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool.
No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle
Lets call it the "Double Gateway Wall-in." It is a complete wall in with 2 gateways exposed and a pylon holding the small area between unless I'm misunderstanding you.
I have encountered this quite often and it is one of my favorite ones to come across.
I can body block your gateways with my lings back and forth while you spam zealots, this will cause all your zealots to spawn inside your base rather than outside, so they're useless until I kill BOTH gateways. This gives me a massive lead due to the fact that you have to build ANOTHER gateway before you can even start your cybernetics core and get to teching.
I also saw somebody mention the 2 pylon + cannon block at the Zergs ramp.
7 Pool will have lings out fast enough to kill both pylons at the bottom of the ramp before the cannon finishes.
It is the same effect as a blind forge -> cannon build where you know he is not going to be aggressive for the next few minutes so you can feel free to power drone quite heavily.
As far as the +1 upgrade, I will say that this is one of the stronger follow-ups that I have come up against. I personally prefer to ling until I have 60-80 lings, so this is particularly potent against my follow-up build as well.
What I have found is placing an overlord to keep watch of the protoss players forge helps. If I see it upgrading, I will slap down a 2nd evo chamber and get +1 carapace ASAP. Still, there are some very strong timing windows that appear as protoss can chronoboost their +1 weapons before my +1 carapace is finished.
And +1 weapons 5 gate pushes are completely viable if you go very zealot/sentry heavy. 4 stalkers = 500 minerals, 5 zealots also = 500 minerals.
I am not calling this fool-proof, there is a lot of skill involved on both sides, but at the current time, I am finding it to be a viable opening that puts me at an advantage unless I mess up.
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And yeah, the name is kind of a joke, but its because it's based on a 7 pool rush that fails, I tend not to win the game with those 6 zerglings.
But I don't intend to either, so it works out to be a nice little play.
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Also, 5 gate +1 on 1 base? I thought 4 gate was the absolute maximum you could squeeze out of 1 base?
Cool fact - although 4 gates is the most if you are building up your army, when rebuilding your army, as long as you go zealot heavy, you can manage 5 gates. This is because you dont need to build pylons.
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On October 14 2010 18:44 NExt wrote:
So this thread is.. when your cheese fails.. keep trying ?!?!
That's how the idea started, but I think there is a major difference in economy when you compare a 7 pool rush that makes 10 lings vs my version that only makes 6.
I would say this thread is more about "7 pool doesn't have to be all-in cheese".
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I like this...it works~ I saw the player Firezerg use something similar to this several times and it seemed to work great! He does a 7 pool also, except he builds more than 6 lings...the similarity here is that he also gets a very fast expo after that~
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what about dropping an early pool and building just drones?
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While some people don´t like cheese, I think it´s part of game and I thank you for your detailed informations and effort doing this thread ...
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On October 14 2010 20:16 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 18:06 Viruuus wrote:
You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool.
No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle Lets call it the "Double Gateway Wall-in." It is a complete wall in with 2 gateways exposed and a pylon holding the small area between unless I'm misunderstanding you. I have encountered this quite often and it is one of my favorite ones to come across. I can body block your gateways with my lings back and forth while you spam zealots, this will cause all your zealots to spawn inside your base rather than outside, so they're useless until I kill BOTH gateways. This gives me a massive lead due to the fact that you have to build ANOTHER gateway before you can even start your cybernetics core and get to teching.
You missunderstood me
I said, 2 gateway wall with a zealot in the middle, not a pylon. The zealot can easily kill the zerglings trying to kill the gateways, and he will soon have a 2nd zealot out. dont tell me you can micro against the zealot, because you cant.
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I prefer to open forge first vs zergs in most scenarios.
If I spot the 6/7 pool and the zerg doesn't block the bottom of their ramp, I throw down two pylons and cancel shortly before they finish. This allows time for me to get a cannon up at my base, end your agression and prepare to expand depending on what I can scout. I do not see extremely early pools often though.
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On October 14 2010 15:54 graphene wrote:
there are ppl who get around 2000 by just 4 gating, im sure by cheesing bling bust or these kinds of all ins u can get to 1658....
There is a grand total of 80 players on the european server with more than 2000pts. It's silly how people keep inflating the numbers they use in discussions just to fabricate an argument.
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Canada3117 Posts
I love how quickly people are to throw around the word cheese.
"Oh, so its a cheese build? *clever noob joke*
"No I'm ~1500 diamond"
My feelings are that most of TL is flooded with this misconception that being 1500+ diamond makes you good; or that rushing early is cheese. Nothing is more irritating than wanna be allstars running their mouth about cheese because most of them can't defend an early rush- not to mention the OP stated multiple times clearly that this rush is design to slow protoss econ/tech so he can get an even faster two base head start. If he wanted to cheese rush, hed be 6pooling.
Not to mention, most of you 1500 terrans rode the reaper all in into diamond anyways.
Also, if you can get the protoss to commit to the forge pre-gate you have slowed them down. That's another 150 mins before the cybercore. Not to mention delayed gas. In that time you could follow up with roach push. Bling bust, or pretty much any Z follower, while resting assured you're not likely to get 4gated.
In fact, this may be my fav ZvP opening I've seen on TL yet, thx!
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thanks for the build man. i think i'll give it a try.
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On October 14 2010 22:27 Viruuus wrote:
You missunderstood me
I said, 2 gateway wall with a zealot in the middle, not a pylon. The zealot can easily kill the zerglings trying to kill the gateways, and he will soon have a 2nd zealot out. dont tell me you can micro against the zealot, because you cant.
I don't think things are that simple then.
If there is an opening, that means my lings can get inside the base before the zealot is out. Which means harassing your probes. Your first 2-3 zealots will be dedicated to keeping the lings at bay and blocking the gap to prevent further suplementing my ling army, so you won't be applying pressure to me any time soon.
So long as I pay attention to how many zealots you are pumping, I can make drones or lings as needed while I safely get my expo up, which is the entire point of the rush.
That being said, I do think having an opening and blocking it with 3-4 probes for those precious few seconds while the zealot finishes is one of the stronger counter-strats the protoss player can do, but it is by no means a clear win.
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I go forge first below my ramp in PvZ and that completely shuts down this build. Protects my main and nat and I can pump zealots to help the cannon if you overcommit to lings, go for 4 gate zealot push with +1 weapons and a few sentries to FF roaches or blings and you lose.
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Canada3117 Posts
Forge below coin flips to a baneling bust. Watch idra v tester. If they do the zealot wall, your zerglings are likely to run by. Not to mention some players chase that zealot after your lings, which can let you send reinforcement lings if they don't reblock the ramp.
Not to mention, if your early agression is working, you may get the toss to use 1 even 2 chrono boosts on his zealots, which is a huge boost to you, as it slows drone/warpgate production speed. The less chrono spent on drones = further the zerg gets ahead.
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people are overlooking a basic fact and taking it as a given that protoss are going to wall against a zerg, i hardly ever wall and i have no trouble shutting down 6pool-10pool.
simcity around your mineral line, first pylon on the offside of a nexus still has enough power range to cover the other side to throw a gateway down between your geyser,providing you with a pretty safe wall, the longer the game goes on the more buildings you can throw at your wall, by the time you get a forge or core your completely walled off besides the holes in the mineral line, which can be shut down by a probe walling it while your zealots do the damage.
if anyone is interested in trying this build against me PM me
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I can forsee this being a lot more effective on 4p maps. Odds of the Protoss finding the early pool in time is significantly lower and you could easily win outright if not put you way ahead. You would just have to drone scout one base to ascertain his position.
On 2p maps, I'll throw down the forge right when the pylon scout sees the early pool and it'll be up just in time. Even with the perfect defense, the timings are about equal going into midgame because you're delaying the cybercore by a decent chunk.
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Canada3117 Posts
Exactly, the goal here isn't to win, but to keep toss behind long enough to for you get your expansion/tech going.
I do agree, the sim city defense is key, but also requires your opponent simcitying blindly to counter potential 6 pools. Not to mention, sim city -cannons hates the baneling. Sim city wtih cannons has you too far behind in one base tech- a good zerg will see this turtle, macro out, and run you over with a lair tech timing push.
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On October 14 2010 22:11 aka_star wrote:
what about dropping an early pool and building just drones?
I don't know if you will achieve anything with that. Because the scout probe will see that there is no zerglings and p won't build cannons then. P will just go on building as normal and you will have a bad eco.
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EPT
