The Zealot can't be spawned from the side of the gateway that he wants to because I am taking up all the room with my zerglings.
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Basic Idea
This is a micro-intensive strategy for small-medium rush distance maps, mostly the 2 player maps.
It starts out like your standard 7 pool rush.
But while the pool is building, I squeeze out 2 more drones and an Overlord, this delays your 3rd and 4th set of Zerglings by about 2-3 seconds. After your 8 lings are out, you go back to making drones.
Once the first 3 Zergling eggs are in the making, send 1 drone to my opponents base. This drone will reach the base about 5 seconds before your zerglings and give you a heads up on what the Protoss players defense is going to be.
This is where the details start to get rough, but every defense I've seen has a proper response.
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Managing Your Lings
If there is any gaps left open at all, run straight to the probes and start harassing. The goal is not necessarily to kill probes, but to keep them from mining. If all the probes are attacking your lings, back up unless you have the option of fighting in a choke point.
If there are no gaps left open and a pylon can be attacked by 3 or more lings, that is the weak point in his wall, strike there, use your other zerglings to block the closest side of the gateway, forcing their zealot to spawn on the inside of their base rather than the outside, you can sometimes kill an exposed pylon before a cannon finishes and end the game right there.
If there is a cannon already in the works before you even get there, your attack has already been successful, attack until the cannon is finished, then back up and power drone.
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Managing Your Macro
Back at your base, just keep pumping drones and send a drone to expand when you have ~275 minerals. Once the hatch is down, still keep pumping drones until you have 150 minerals, then its time for a Queen.
Transition into whatever early game strategy you want with your economic lead on the Protoss player.
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Explanation for why a forge and cannon is a GOOD thing for you in this strategy:
A forge and 2 cannons are 450 minerals that the Protoss player will not be spending on a Cybernetics Core or Assimilator in any sort of a timely manner. Oddly enough, you are about 400 minerals behind yourself. This will delay any sort of aggression he can do against you so while he may have a better economy than you, he will have a hard time putting it to good use, giving you plenty of time to make up the difference.
if you 8 pool, you can build 2 more drones (to 9), then use a double extractor trick to get back to 7, 3 zerglings, cancel extractor, build overlord, then queen. I think you'll find that's better than overlord first.
If you play standard, you can win and get out of gold. I'm sorry but this will not work against the higher end more competent players. Even 6 pool rushes aren't that effective anymore once people have learnt to deal them and they make lings faster and reinforce. This is just delaying mining for a few seconds against a good opponent. If you want to put early pressure i'd suggest 10 pooling as it's safer. This just seems gimmicky to me.
I originally played with the idea of an earlier queen to increase drone production.
But in the end, I decided getting the expo up ASAP was more important as it is easier to defend vs any sort of counter push and has a larger impact on your income than an early queen would.
Also, getting 8 drones before the Pool adds another 10 seconds or so for cannons and zealots to build, ruining the timing for busting your way up his ramp.
If you're going to 8 pool, you might as well 13 pool.
@ ThE.SparkZ
Please don't come in here treating me like some noob, I'm currently at 1658 rating in Diamond League, 4th in my Div. Not great, but probably better than you.
I've used the 7pool numerous times. My build was very similar to yours. It requires a lot of APM to effectively harass toss without losing your lings (practice too). I only used it on 2 people maps. The beginning of my build was exactly like yours. I felt that the majority of protoss's over react to the 7 pool rush b/c they think its a 6 pool rush. They think if they kill your lings its over. I had trouble with the counter attack if my lings died after the harass. Toss's counterattacked with like 5 zealots. I was unable to defend it. I felt this build strained the larvae count. I'll check out your replays tomorrow. I always wanted to make this strategy work.
I tested this build out frequently when i was laddering between the ratings of 1100-1350 diamond but I abandoned the strategy. I initially had a lot of success but when i was got to 1250-1400 i had a lot of trouble fixing it up. I didn't like losing so I stuck with my standard play
Overall, I thought it was a good build. You can macro and basically cheese rush the guy if there is a weakness to his base set up. You can also transition into a fairly level Harvest count. I mainly abandoned it because I didn't like the feeling of being forced to harass. If the ling harass fails or your ling dies early then I think its basically GG because the opponent will counter attack w/ a lot of Zealots.
I played on 2 people maps so the majority of protoss players scouted me for a cheese rush. Some toss respond with Forge and some respond with chrono boosted Zealot. Even though your 6 lings will be able to get inside his base b4 the zealot can come out i felt that with proper micro... the protoss has a better chance of coming out on top then the zerg.
On October 14 2010 14:19 GoldenH wrote: if you 8 pool, you can build 2 more drones (to 9), then use a double extractor trick to get back to 7, 3 zerglings, cancel extractor, build overlord, then queen. I think you'll find that's better than overlord first.
Then you realize you might as well 8 pool -> drone, drone, ovie, which will give you 3 larvae when the pool is done, and you won't have to cancle 2 extractors and lose lots of minerals in mining time. Personally I think that's way stronger than 7 pool, if you feel you must open early pool.
By the way this is hard countered easily by the protoss by simply blocking the bottom of zerg's ramp with 2 pylons, which seems un-intuitive but it delays for long enough to get a ling-proof wall at home.
On October 14 2010 15:22 Adeny wrote: Then you realize you might as well 8 pool -> drone, drone, ovie, which will give you 3 larvae when the pool is done, and you won't have to cancle 2 extractors and lose lots of minerals in mining time. Personally I think that's way stronger than 7 pool, if you feel you must open early pool.
By the way this is hard countered easily by the protoss by simply blocking the bottom of zerg's ramp with 2 pylons, which seems un-intuitive but it delays for long enough to get a ling-proof wall at home.
The whole point of the 7 pool is to get the ling's in the toss's base before he can get a zealot to block his entrance. Sometimes you will have enough time to kill the pylon that's powering the gateway. I'm pretty sure the 8 pool would not be able to match the timing of 7 pool lings. It might work on steppes of war but it won't work on Xel Naga or jungle basin. The walking distance is way too large.
Huh, because of the title, i thought this was a joke thread, but it clearly isn't :O Did this work before patch 1.1 or is it a recent development due to the 5 second zealot delay?
Please don't come in here treating me like some noob, I'm currently at 1658 rating in Diamond League, 4th in my Div. Not great, but probably better than you.
Don't ruin my thread by insulting me plz...[/QUOTE]
there are ppl who get around 2000 by just 4 gating, im sure by cheesing bling bust or these kinds of all ins u can get to 1658....
This is a good discussion of an idea. He has in NO way said it's fool proof. It is NOT cheesy (ie. relies on not being scouted). It is NOT all-in (ie. leaves him with a massive economic advantage if his attack fails).
Instead it is a smart opening designed at exploting a lot of subtle timings and issues with the current Protoss 'standard' wall-in. If you have nothing to devote to the conversation besides slander, then you shouldn't be posting at all. Jerm isn't trying to e-peen flash or anything. He is purely offering an idea for discussion in a very good manner (showing replays of it working, actually discussing it with other people instead of stating it and leaving). Show some respect.
On October 14 2010 14:34 ThE.SparkZ wrote: I'm sorry but this will not work against the higher end more competent players.
I agree with this. I did a build very similar to the one you describe, and it worked like a charm for a while, but as my opponents got better, it started to fail horribly.
edit: that was back in 1.0 though. And who knows? Maybe PvZ opening trends will start to lean more toward susceptible openings as ZvP openings lean toward 15hatch.
Making the protoss build a forge and a cannon does not make him waste 300 minerals. The cannon makes him safe against a lot of rushes zerg can do, so it limits your options; the forge is used for upgrading obviously and upgrades are key in pvz. Most of the games someone did this on me I've been going 5 gate +1 rush out of 1 base and so far it has worked but expanding is also viable as you already have the forge.
On October 14 2010 16:54 CanT.ThinK.oF wrote: Making the protoss build a forge and a cannon does not make him waste 300 minerals. The cannon makes him safe against a lot of rushes zerg can do, so it limits your options; the forge is used for upgrading obviously and upgrades are key in pvz. Most of the games someone did this on me I've been going 5 gate +1 rush out of 1 base and so far it has worked but expanding is also viable as you already have the forge.
True, he can still use the forge. However, by having to go forge + cannon the Protoss is forced to spend to "spend" those minerals earlier than he wants. So he can't eco/tech as fast as he wants to, nor can he pressure Zerg much in the early game. And we all know what happens when you don't pressure a Zerg player. If they are allowed to power drones hard, Zerg really shines.
Also, 5 gate +1 on 1 base? I thought 4 gate was the absolute maximum you could squeeze out of 1 base?
You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool. No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle. This way you can't kill any buildings, and you also cant get in. Ive done a lot of 6/7 pool testing, and it is just not viable because you rely on your opponent playing bad. At the time you realize you wont get in, you have 8-10 drones and he has 15-16 which is 100% game over for equal level opponents.
And even if he makes a forge/cannon, that is not the biggest deal, the 300 minerals are not wasted at all, you also are not only 300 minerals behind, since he has alot more workers. For 15 workers the 1 cannon is just a minor delay, and the forge is often used for +1 attack anyways.
I have done this build a ton, in tourneys, ladder and customs. I won quite often, but it never works against competent players who dont go FE
the easiest way to handle all this zerg rushes is just playing forge first in every fuckn game.
i just get a pylon with 9 on one side of the choke and the forge comes with 12 to the other side. if i scout the 6, 7 what ever pool early, sometime i cancel the 12 probe and get the forge with 11 which makes it easier for you. but even if you scout it late, i just get a gateway to block the entire choke.
btw if you play 12 gateway you can never ever finish a zealot before the lings are at your base. and if you dont scout ridiculous early you cant do something else.
so forge first is just the best option cause you can easily hold this rushes+you can do some cannon cheese to block zerg choke or to block his natural.
on steppes you sometimes need a second pylon behind your first, because he will kill your first pylon before your cannon is finished.
this bo is just save to all kind of rushes+you can open like you want.... you can fe, you can 4-5 gate push, you can do whatever you want. +you already have to forge for the importan +1 upgrade.
im just happy about every zerg, who tries this, but it nearly never happens now where i am on 1650-1700 diamond level..
On October 14 2010 18:06 Viruuus wrote: You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool. No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle
Lets call it the "Double Gateway Wall-in." It is a complete wall in with 2 gateways exposed and a pylon holding the small area between unless I'm misunderstanding you.
I have encountered this quite often and it is one of my favorite ones to come across.
I can body block your gateways with my lings back and forth while you spam zealots, this will cause all your zealots to spawn inside your base rather than outside, so they're useless until I kill BOTH gateways. This gives me a massive lead due to the fact that you have to build ANOTHER gateway before you can even start your cybernetics core and get to teching.
I also saw somebody mention the 2 pylon + cannon block at the Zergs ramp.
7 Pool will have lings out fast enough to kill both pylons at the bottom of the ramp before the cannon finishes.
It is the same effect as a blind forge -> cannon build where you know he is not going to be aggressive for the next few minutes so you can feel free to power drone quite heavily.
As far as the +1 upgrade, I will say that this is one of the stronger follow-ups that I have come up against. I personally prefer to ling until I have 60-80 lings, so this is particularly potent against my follow-up build as well.
What I have found is placing an overlord to keep watch of the protoss players forge helps. If I see it upgrading, I will slap down a 2nd evo chamber and get +1 carapace ASAP. Still, there are some very strong timing windows that appear as protoss can chronoboost their +1 weapons before my +1 carapace is finished.
And +1 weapons 5 gate pushes are completely viable if you go very zealot/sentry heavy. 4 stalkers = 500 minerals, 5 zealots also = 500 minerals.
I am not calling this fool-proof, there is a lot of skill involved on both sides, but at the current time, I am finding it to be a viable opening that puts me at an advantage unless I mess up.
Also, 5 gate +1 on 1 base? I thought 4 gate was the absolute maximum you could squeeze out of 1 base?
Cool fact - although 4 gates is the most if you are building up your army, when rebuilding your army, as long as you go zealot heavy, you can manage 5 gates. This is because you dont need to build pylons.
On October 14 2010 18:44 NExt wrote: So this thread is.. when your cheese fails.. keep trying ?!?!
That's how the idea started, but I think there is a major difference in economy when you compare a 7 pool rush that makes 10 lings vs my version that only makes 6.
I would say this thread is more about "7 pool doesn't have to be all-in cheese".
I like this...it works~ I saw the player Firezerg use something similar to this several times and it seemed to work great! He does a 7 pool also, except he builds more than 6 lings...the similarity here is that he also gets a very fast expo after that~
On October 14 2010 18:06 Viruuus wrote: You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool. No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle
Lets call it the "Double Gateway Wall-in." It is a complete wall in with 2 gateways exposed and a pylon holding the small area between unless I'm misunderstanding you.
I have encountered this quite often and it is one of my favorite ones to come across.
I can body block your gateways with my lings back and forth while you spam zealots, this will cause all your zealots to spawn inside your base rather than outside, so they're useless until I kill BOTH gateways. This gives me a massive lead due to the fact that you have to build ANOTHER gateway before you can even start your cybernetics core and get to teching.
You missunderstood me I said, 2 gateway wall with a zealot in the middle, not a pylon. The zealot can easily kill the zerglings trying to kill the gateways, and he will soon have a 2nd zealot out. dont tell me you can micro against the zealot, because you cant.
I prefer to open forge first vs zergs in most scenarios.
If I spot the 6/7 pool and the zerg doesn't block the bottom of their ramp, I throw down two pylons and cancel shortly before they finish. This allows time for me to get a cannon up at my base, end your agression and prepare to expand depending on what I can scout. I do not see extremely early pools often though.
On October 14 2010 15:54 graphene wrote: there are ppl who get around 2000 by just 4 gating, im sure by cheesing bling bust or these kinds of all ins u can get to 1658....
There is a grand total of 80 players on the european server with more than 2000pts. It's silly how people keep inflating the numbers they use in discussions just to fabricate an argument.
I love how quickly people are to throw around the word cheese. "Oh, so its a cheese build? *clever noob joke* "No I'm ~1500 diamond"
My feelings are that most of TL is flooded with this misconception that being 1500+ diamond makes you good; or that rushing early is cheese. Nothing is more irritating than wanna be allstars running their mouth about cheese because most of them can't defend an early rush- not to mention the OP stated multiple times clearly that this rush is design to slow protoss econ/tech so he can get an even faster two base head start. If he wanted to cheese rush, hed be 6pooling.
Not to mention, most of you 1500 terrans rode the reaper all in into diamond anyways.
Also, if you can get the protoss to commit to the forge pre-gate you have slowed them down. That's another 150 mins before the cybercore. Not to mention delayed gas. In that time you could follow up with roach push. Bling bust, or pretty much any Z follower, while resting assured you're not likely to get 4gated.
In fact, this may be my fav ZvP opening I've seen on TL yet, thx!
On October 14 2010 22:27 Viruuus wrote: You missunderstood me I said, 2 gateway wall with a zealot in the middle, not a pylon. The zealot can easily kill the zerglings trying to kill the gateways, and he will soon have a 2nd zealot out. dont tell me you can micro against the zealot, because you cant.
I don't think things are that simple then.
If there is an opening, that means my lings can get inside the base before the zealot is out. Which means harassing your probes. Your first 2-3 zealots will be dedicated to keeping the lings at bay and blocking the gap to prevent further suplementing my ling army, so you won't be applying pressure to me any time soon.
So long as I pay attention to how many zealots you are pumping, I can make drones or lings as needed while I safely get my expo up, which is the entire point of the rush.
That being said, I do think having an opening and blocking it with 3-4 probes for those precious few seconds while the zealot finishes is one of the stronger counter-strats the protoss player can do, but it is by no means a clear win.
I go forge first below my ramp in PvZ and that completely shuts down this build. Protects my main and nat and I can pump zealots to help the cannon if you overcommit to lings, go for 4 gate zealot push with +1 weapons and a few sentries to FF roaches or blings and you lose.
Forge below coin flips to a baneling bust. Watch idra v tester. If they do the zealot wall, your zerglings are likely to run by. Not to mention some players chase that zealot after your lings, which can let you send reinforcement lings if they don't reblock the ramp.
Not to mention, if your early agression is working, you may get the toss to use 1 even 2 chrono boosts on his zealots, which is a huge boost to you, as it slows drone/warpgate production speed. The less chrono spent on drones = further the zerg gets ahead.
people are overlooking a basic fact and taking it as a given that protoss are going to wall against a zerg, i hardly ever wall and i have no trouble shutting down 6pool-10pool.
simcity around your mineral line, first pylon on the offside of a nexus still has enough power range to cover the other side to throw a gateway down between your geyser,providing you with a pretty safe wall, the longer the game goes on the more buildings you can throw at your wall, by the time you get a forge or core your completely walled off besides the holes in the mineral line, which can be shut down by a probe walling it while your zealots do the damage.
if anyone is interested in trying this build against me PM me
I can forsee this being a lot more effective on 4p maps. Odds of the Protoss finding the early pool in time is significantly lower and you could easily win outright if not put you way ahead. You would just have to drone scout one base to ascertain his position.
On 2p maps, I'll throw down the forge right when the pylon scout sees the early pool and it'll be up just in time. Even with the perfect defense, the timings are about equal going into midgame because you're delaying the cybercore by a decent chunk.
Exactly, the goal here isn't to win, but to keep toss behind long enough to for you get your expansion/tech going.
I do agree, the sim city defense is key, but also requires your opponent simcitying blindly to counter potential 6 pools. Not to mention, sim city -cannons hates the baneling. Sim city wtih cannons has you too far behind in one base tech- a good zerg will see this turtle, macro out, and run you over with a lair tech timing push.
On October 14 2010 22:11 aka_star wrote: what about dropping an early pool and building just drones?
I don't know if you will achieve anything with that. Because the scout probe will see that there is no zerglings and p won't build cannons then. P will just go on building as normal and you will have a bad eco.
On October 14 2010 14:19 GoldenH wrote: if you 8 pool, you can build 2 more drones (to 9), then use a double extractor trick to get back to 7, 3 zerglings, cancel extractor, build overlord, then queen. I think you'll find that's better than overlord first.
By the way this is hard countered easily by the protoss by simply blocking the bottom of zerg's ramp with 2 pylons, which seems un-intuitive but it delays for long enough to get a ling-proof wall at home.
Leaving an opening and blocking with ~4 probes while chrono boosting a single zealot is one of the better options I've come across. You will be about 4 probes ahead assuming you lose only 1 or 2 probes, but won't really be able to leave your base for the time being. From there, it really depends if you want to go for 2-gate pressure or rush straight to 4-gate or Void Ray. Nothing is particularly devastating to me and it feels like an easy expo, assuming I manage my map control well enough.
I have a buddy who turtles up very hard early game and does a 12 gate -> zealot -> cannon -> expand every game. He will get his zealot out early enough to minimize the damage I deal to his economy, but isn't really far enough ahead of me to take advantage of it.
The other major option is a complete wall with gateway + forge, cannon goes down immediately after forge finishes.
This will significantly slow your 4-gate push, but while that forge is there, you can use it to get +1 weapons, then go with a zealot/sentry heavy 5-gate. I mentioned this earlier and I typically counter by getting +1 carapace myself, but it can be a very strong push for those few seconds when your +1 weapons is done and my carapace is still in the works.
Really, I think this throws off all the timings for a strong 4-gate, so some new timing push that isn't common yet will be the proper response.
On October 14 2010 18:06 Viruuus wrote: You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool. No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle
Lets call it the "Double Gateway Wall-in." It is a complete wall in with 2 gateways exposed and a pylon holding the small area between unless I'm misunderstanding you.
I have encountered this quite often and it is one of my favorite ones to come across.
I can body block your gateways with my lings back and forth while you spam zealots, this will cause all your zealots to spawn inside your base rather than outside, so they're useless until I kill BOTH gateways. This gives me a massive lead due to the fact that you have to build ANOTHER gateway before you can even start your cybernetics core and get to teching.
You missunderstood me I said, 2 gateway wall with a zealot in the middle, not a pylon. The zealot can easily kill the zerglings trying to kill the gateways, and he will soon have a 2nd zealot out. dont tell me you can micro against the zealot, because you cant.
Decent micro leave all 6 zerglings alive vs 1 zealot. It's very simple...take two hits, pull back an inch and go back to attacking, repeat
This is like the most retarded strategy to play against on scrap station because the only way to wall in is with 2 gateways and a forge. So if the zerg only makes 6 lings and then expos, I'm so far behind.
I've played against this a lot. It is frustrating to fend off the 6 lings with minimal losses and think you've won, only to push out, see spine crawlers at the nat, and not be able to push your advantage much. Z can eventually turtle and catch up on workers, and then you have to deal with muta harass. In this sense, the 7-pool isn't quite as all-in as it seems. It's a bad opening that puts Z behind if P micros well, but Z can catch up.
That said, a properly executed FFE will rock this every time on most maps. Forge at the bottom of the ramp to wall off and a quick cannon repels the lings, and then P has both more workers and an earlier expansion. On Xel'Naga Caverns, it's a little tougher to press the advantage with a super-early expansion because you need multiple cannons to cover your ramp and defend your nexus at the nat. Still, Z is far behind unless you screw up.
Anytime I get early pooled I have already got the cannon up and my chocke blocked, I proceed to tech sprint to stargate and get 2 phoenix and 1 Void ray. If the queens shoot i pick them up and roast them. Hydras, Mutas all the same. the minerals you sunk into those 6 zerglins are equal to my cannon, and I was going to make the forge anyway. How do you counter this? I can have have my three units out at around 7-8 minutes. I post a couple of replays when I get home if you wish.
How would you respond to this (seeing as you didnt see it coming since I am walled in).
On October 14 2010 14:19 GoldenH wrote: if you 8 pool, you can build 2 more drones (to 9), then use a double extractor trick to get back to 7, 3 zerglings, cancel extractor, build overlord, then queen. I think you'll find that's better than overlord first.
By the way this is hard countered easily by the protoss by simply blocking the bottom of zerg's ramp with 2 pylons, which seems un-intuitive but it delays for long enough to get a ling-proof wall at home.
Catz vs Time on Steppes. Check it out.
I don't remember exactly what happened that game, but I'm pretty sure the double pylon worked out pretty well for me, and I lost later due to banelings/getting outplayed. I think the double pylon wall at the bottom of your/the zerg's ramp is pretty cost-effective.
On October 15 2010 05:51 colmanaburn wrote: Anytime I get early pooled I have already got the cannon up and my chocke blocked, I proceed to tech sprint to stargate and get 2 phoenix and 1 Void ray. If the queens shoot i pick them up and roast them. Hydras, Mutas all the same. the minerals you sunk into those 6 zerglins are equal to my cannon, and I was going to make the forge anyway. How do you counter this? I can have have my three units out at around 7-8 minutes. I post a couple of replays when I get home if you wish.
How would you respond to this (seeing as you didnt see it coming since I am walled in).
This can be hard if you don't scout it. This can be compounded by the fact that it can be hard to scout.
My solution is to scout aggressively, sacrificing an overlord at around 40 supply if I don't see anything satisfying.
I like to make an extra queen for creep spreading and extra AA. I will already have an evo chamber down, so I can always slap down a few spore colonies if needed.
The biggest risk is this going unscouted. If I can find the starport, there is very little risk for me.
Here is a thread which has the quality and effort behind it to be deserving of the [G] tag: [G] Fighting Muta/Ling as Toss
You've got a cute idea, but I fail to see how this OP, the idea, or the effort you've put into it warrant a [G] (guide) tag. Please don't dilute the meaning of [G].
This is a [D] (discussion) thread at best. Probably needs to be a [H] (help) thread.
I'll go ahead and post the guidelines found in the 2nd thread of SC2 Strategy in case you feel my assessment is invalid.
On February 24 2010 00:47 zatic wrote: [G] Guides
Know what you are talking about
Guides are complete, detailed, and comprehensive advice for a specific strategy or tactic that can be generally executed and is not situational. Guides are held up against the highest standards of quality in this forum. They are the most valuable resource for the average player. Writing a good guide may yield you wide appreciation and e-fame, but comes with a lot of work and responsibility.
Naturally, do not write a guide about something you are not experienced with. If you have come up with a new build and you just won 6 games in a row with it, do not start writing a guide. Play your build more, tweak it, find out it’s weaknesses and follow-ups and branches. A good rule of thumb is to play a strategy until you lose a couple of times with it against different counters, then modify it until you win most games again, then start to think about writing a guide.
A good guide does not necessarily have to be written about a build in a specific matchup, although that is most common. If you have found a new, incredibly effective way to micro Helions you can write a generic Helion micro guide.
Most of the time guides will introduce builds in specific matchups though. Look through our legacy Strategy forum to get an idea on how to write good matchup build guides. There is no perfect recipe, but a few things to take care of: State the goal of the build, strengths, weaknesses, possible follow-up, and adaptations to what the opponent does. Dedicate a chapter to scouting and how to react to what you see within your build.
On October 14 2010 18:06 Viruuus wrote: You didnt mention the only viable counter vs any early pool. No Protoss should ever make a pylon that can be attacked from the ramp, but instead almost all of them make a gateway there, and then they just add a 2nd gateway such that there is one choke where a zealot fits in in the middle
Lets call it the "Double Gateway Wall-in." It is a complete wall in with 2 gateways exposed and a pylon holding the small area between unless I'm misunderstanding you.
I have encountered this quite often and it is one of my favorite ones to come across.
I can body block your gateways with my lings back and forth while you spam zealots, this will cause all your zealots to spawn inside your base rather than outside, so they're useless until I kill BOTH gateways. This gives me a massive lead due to the fact that you have to build ANOTHER gateway before you can even start your cybernetics core and get to teching.
I also saw somebody mention the 2 pylon + cannon block at the Zergs ramp.
7 Pool will have lings out fast enough to kill both pylons at the bottom of the ramp before the cannon finishes.
It is the same effect as a blind forge -> cannon build where you know he is not going to be aggressive for the next few minutes so you can feel free to power drone quite heavily.
As far as the +1 upgrade, I will say that this is one of the stronger follow-ups that I have come up against. I personally prefer to ling until I have 60-80 lings, so this is particularly potent against my follow-up build as well.
What I have found is placing an overlord to keep watch of the protoss players forge helps. If I see it upgrading, I will slap down a 2nd evo chamber and get +1 carapace ASAP. Still, there are some very strong timing windows that appear as protoss can chronoboost their +1 weapons before my +1 carapace is finished.
And +1 weapons 5 gate pushes are completely viable if you go very zealot/sentry heavy. 4 stalkers = 500 minerals, 5 zealots also = 500 minerals.
I am not calling this fool-proof, there is a lot of skill involved on both sides, but at the current time, I am finding it to be a viable opening that puts me at an advantage unless I mess up.
hey man, cool thread. i like this idea and I've actually seen CatZ use it quite a few times. he does a 7pool that forces opponent to make cannons or whatever, then just transitions into totally normal game and ends up stomping the guy on 5 bases xD
I just wanted to ask you if you could clarifiy the "body block" that forces the zealot to spawn on the inside?
Could you explain how you do that? If you give a screenshot that would be awesome, but I understand if thats too much trouble
Edit:
On October 15 2010 05:58 PJA wrote: IMO just go study catz' replays if you want to see how to transition out of 7 pool well.
I am not asking for help on how to properly execute a Fail Pool rush. I know very well how to do it and I am sharing that knowledge with TL.
I could have labelled it [D] as I intended to answer any questions people may have about it that I didn't cover specifically in the OP, but I figured the [G] tag fit best with what I wanted to do, which is share a strategy that I have found to be viable at mid-diamond levels.
I will add more bold text to the OP if it makes you feel better.
edit: Bolds added sir, sorry for the inconvenience.
On October 14 2010 14:19 GoldenH wrote: if you 8 pool, you can build 2 more drones (to 9), then use a double extractor trick to get back to 7, 3 zerglings, cancel extractor, build overlord, then queen. I think you'll find that's better than overlord first.
By the way this is hard countered easily by the protoss by simply blocking the bottom of zerg's ramp with 2 pylons, which seems un-intuitive but it delays for long enough to get a ling-proof wall at home.
Just wondering, how does this work out against a 10-gate early pressure into FE build? Even vs 6-pool, the toss is constantly chronoing the zealots and the first one will come out on time, or maybe a second or two late to defend. With the toss pulling 3-4 probes along with the zealot, he should no fine, no? Even if you run straight for the toss probe line, he can defend for a few seconds using just his probes and be still be in a good condition. Just don't see how this is viable, considering how often 10-gate pressure is seen vs zerg.
On October 15 2010 11:47 Jermstuddog wrote: @Obsolescence
Sorry for not including enough pretty pictures.
I am not asking for help on how to properly execute a Fail Pool rush. I know very well how to do it and I am sharing that knowledge with TL.
I could have labelled it [D] as I intended to answer any questions people may have about it that I didn't cover specifically in the OP, but I figured the [G] tag fit best with what I wanted to do, which is share a strategy that I have found to be viable at mid-diamond levels.
I will add more bold text to the OP if it makes you feel better.
edit: Bolds added sir, sorry for the inconvenience.
Thanks for the thread, I'm definitely going to try this out. Don't listen to the negative nancy.
On October 15 2010 12:20 XdsZmX wrote: Just wondering, how does this work out against a 10-gate early pressure into FE build? Even vs 6-pool, the toss is constantly chronoing the zealots and the first one will come out on time, or maybe a second or two late to defend. With the toss pulling 3-4 probes along with the zealot, he should no fine, no? Even if you run straight for the toss probe line, he can defend for a few seconds using just his probes and be still be in a good condition. Just don't see how this is viable, considering how often 10-gate pressure is seen vs zerg.
You can't get the zealot out unless you want to not completely wall in. For example, If it's scrap station, I could chrono a zealot out, but then a runby is so easy to do.
On October 15 2010 10:49 Subversion wrote: I just wanted to ask you if you could clarifiy the "body block" that forces the zealot to spawn on the inside?
Could you explain how you do that? If you give a screenshot that would be awesome, but I understand if thats too much trouble
It's a terrible game in general, I just chose to play like a retard for some reason. But it has a great example of "body blocking" at the 3 minute mark.
I use all my lings to block his gateway and his zealot is forced to come out on the inside of his base and be useless rather than outside where he can defend.
I can juggle his two gateways for 3 zealots.
The obvious counter to this would be to make 2 zealots at the same time, but then your poor guy is stuck 1 vs 7 when he comes out.
I added this rep to the OP as well so people can understand the tactic that I mention.
8/9 1300+ diamond zergs tried this on me yesterday. All of them failed. Dropping a 2nd gate while chronoboosting zealots along with using worker probes to surround the zlings really defeats this. Toss has to keep a steady production of zealots in order to eventually defeat the stream of zlings.
This is basically an All-in if it fails because you'll be way behind in production and income.
On October 16 2010 03:03 Spaceknight wrote: 8/9 1300+ diamond zergs tried this on me yesterday. All of them failed. Dropping a 2nd gate while chronoboosting zealots along with using worker probes to surround the zlings really defeats this. Toss has to keep a steady production of zealots in order to eventually defeat the stream of zlings.
This is basically an All-in if it fails because you'll be way behind in production and income.
Replay? Would be helpful to further this discussion.
On October 16 2010 03:03 Spaceknight wrote: 8/9 1300+ diamond zergs tried this on me yesterday. All of them failed. Dropping a 2nd gate while chronoboosting zealots along with using worker probes to surround the zlings really defeats this. Toss has to keep a steady production of zealots in order to eventually defeat the stream of zlings.
This is basically an All-in if it fails because you'll be way behind in production and income.
Replay? Would be helpful to further this discussion.
I'd be interested in seeing one or two of those replays too.
On October 16 2010 03:03 Spaceknight wrote: 8/9 1300+ diamond zergs tried this on me yesterday. All of them failed. Dropping a 2nd gate while chronoboosting zealots along with using worker probes to surround the zlings really defeats this. Toss has to keep a steady production of zealots in order to eventually defeat the stream of zlings.
This is basically an All-in if it fails because you'll be way behind in production and income.
Replay? Would be helpful to further this discussion.
well the thing is it wouldnt further this discussion because it has nothing to do with it at all, the point of this thread as the OP stated several times is to make SIX FAST lings to harass the protoss
ONLY SIX
meanwhile you are pumping drones and expanding
I really like this idea even if it is micro intensive since it gives the zerg more options early game to fluster the toss
On October 16 2010 03:03 Spaceknight wrote: 8/9 1300+ diamond zergs tried this on me yesterday. All of them failed. Dropping a 2nd gate while chronoboosting zealots along with using worker probes to surround the zlings really defeats this. Toss has to keep a steady production of zealots in order to eventually defeat the stream of zlings.
This is basically an All-in if it fails because you'll be way behind in production and income.
The 1300+ Zergs probably are in the beginning stages of using the strat, so aren't accustomed to controlling their units at this stage in the game. When adopting a new build order, there is always an adjustment period between when the steps are executed consciously and when they are executed automatically.
Have you tried this build on Terran with the new patch? It might work. On a small map like Steppes of war. It can force the terran to build the 2nd depot + repair + have 4 Scv's off the line. The 1st Marine comes out like 10-15 seconds later then usual. They have to repair and use SCV's off line for a longer time then usual.
Mean while you can expo or drone up for a baneling attack.
EPT
