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This is crazy that people are just putting words into my mouth. This guide does not need novels posted as an answer.
For the last time: I never said asking for help is wrong. I also am not saying making H threads is wrong. Lastly I never said asking questions is bad.
This guide is there to try and help players craft the correct questions, so they can come to understand the problem.
Anyway this thread is getting crAzyyyyyyyyyyy
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0/5. Would not read again Helping is like loving. The more the better!
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On February 17 2010 01:51 Misrah wrote: This is crazy that people are just putting words into my mouth. This guide does not need novels posted as an answer.
For the last time: I never said asking for help is wrong. I also am not saying making H threads is wrong. Lastly I never said asking questions is bad.
This guide is there to try and help players craft the correct questions, so they can come to understand the problem.
Anyway this thread is getting crAzyyyyyyyyyyy
You are advocating a relatively big opinion by stating that creating help threads does not help the player improve. As a result your thread is getting a big and crazy response. You got what you asked for.
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This is bullshit. You sound like a real jerk and make not a single valid point in support of your position. Certainly a substantial amount of understanding this game comes from playing it, but that doesn't disprove the value of discussing the games you play with other players.
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On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn?
Practically all of them?
Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice. In chess or go, you will get better by reading books about strategy, but you'll improve more quickly by just doing tons of tactics problems in chess, or tesuji and tsumego problems in go. In rock climbing, you don't get better reading online forums or listening to other people talking about how to do something, you just climb more. Maybe you watch another stronger climber do the route/bouldering problem you're trying to do to figure out a better sequence, but that's only maybe 5% of how you spend your time improving. And in starcraft, I was never that good, but I got to C+ on PGT and ICCUP, which is better than most of the people who post in the strategy forum, but I never read the strategy forums much. I did, however, watch a good amount of replays of top zerg players.
In fact, watching top professionals in whatever activity you want to get better in is almost always a better way to improve than asking for advice. Top GMs in chess, and top professionals in go always talk about studying games of the top players as the best way to improve. In go, especially, top players claim to have studied every recorded game of Shusaku, and to a lesser extent, Go Seigen.
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so you're saying this strategy forum is useless ?
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lol. I'm allergic to you. :p
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On February 17 2010 02:49 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn? Practically all of them? Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice. In chess or go, you will get better by reading books about strategy, but you'll improve more quickly by just doing tons of tactics problems in chess, or tesuji and tsumego problems in go. In rock climbing, you don't get better reading online forums or listening to other people talking about how to do something, you just climb more. Maybe you watch another stronger climber do the route/bouldering problem you're trying to do to figure out a better sequence, but that's only maybe 5% of how you spend your time improving. And in starcraft, I was never that good, but I got to C+ on PGT and ICCUP, which is better than most of the people who post in the strategy forum, but I never read the strategy forums much. I did, however, watch a good amount of replays of top zerg players. In fact, watching top professionals in whatever activity you want to get better in is almost always a better way to improve than asking for advice. Top GMs in chess, and top professionals in go always talk about studying games of the top players as the best way to improve. In go, especially, top players claim to have studied every recorded game of Shusaku, and to a lesser extent, Go Seigen.
Do you think it's a coincidence almost all top players (top juniors... worse juniors... tons of players) have a coach? Or do you think they would actually be better off without one? I'm an 1800~ chess player, but if I look at some random Carlsen game I'm not going to get anything out of it. I have no fucking clue what that kid thinks while he plays, and no matter how much I stare at the board, most of the time I'm not going to figure it out. This is where asking people for help comes into the picture; annotated games are the same way, since the author is helping you.
Also, "Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice." is almost certainly bullshit. You think playing chess 8 hours a day makes you better than playing 6 hours and studying 2? No one is saying "never play BW, just read a bunch of strategy, and you'll get A- your first iccup season!" Tactics problems don't really fall into the mass gaming category of practice, since someone wrote a solution, presumably for you to study from. But that doesn't matter, since Misrah isn't telling people to not ask for help and just learn from Flash, he's asking people to learn from no one and just keep playing until they understand how to be better.
On February 17 2010 01:51 Misrah wrote: This is crazy that people are just putting words into my mouth. This guide does not need novels posted as an answer.
For the last time: I never said asking for help is wrong. I also am not saying making H threads is wrong. Lastly I never said asking questions is bad.
This guide is there to try and help players craft the correct questions, so they can come to understand the problem.
Anyway this thread is getting crAzyyyyyyyyyyy
"I am telling you the most important piece of advice in your starcraft career: "You are the only person that can fix your problems." You can't fix them by reading more guides, you can't fix them by reading more posts from D players, and you certainly can't fix them by typing exhaustive [H] threads in the strategy forum. If you do not understand why you lost, you need to look through your replay again and again."
That seems to say all of "asking for help is wrong, making H threads is wrong, and asking questions is bad". If you're the only person that can fix your problems, asking questions certainly isn't good, so it must be bad.
This thread is getting crazy because, at least to me, if everyone agrees with this thread, you are going to actively hurt people trying to get better by telling them to not ask anyone for help and just deal with the game themselves.
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Misrah it sounds to me like you have simply failed to convey ur point in this thread. So many ppl can't misconcept ur op. Or can't you stand up for your statement anymore now when you understands ur out in deep water and simply deflect ppl's comment to something that "they dont understand" rather than it was YOU who did not convey this properly..
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This was deserving of a blog entry... And looking at your blog, your last entry on the 25th was a help-me post. This thread largely looks like a personal backlash due asking for strategy advice, and then while getting some answers, they did not make you a significantly better player.
What can I say, too bad you are not protoss and asking me for help? Ha.
Your point is by and large correct, but poorly, overaggressive, and exaggeratedly communicated (for example, headlines: posting in strategy does not make you better, [you] should stop posting help me threads) One of the fist things I do when helping someone more in depth is mention how I am a source of many details about starcraft, and they can increase their understanding of the game through me, but actually playing well comes down to them...period. Sure, this is something that people posting for strategy advice should recognize, but probably don't actively have in mind.
Is posting in the strategy forum pointless - of course not. And sure, maybe someone will get some decent answers to a thread, but will those few answers improve their play significantly...probably not. And neither will spending a comparable amount of time playing.
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I agree entirely with huameng's post, and the OP is silly
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retarded, but thats what makes this brilliant :D
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Well cognitive manifestations along with generating the fascinations of experience is a more applicable method of learning; this does not entail repetitiveness, it entails generating experience.
However, an understanding comes from different methods to an extent; and a balance of these processes is the proper way to learn at high speeds.
Developing a skill set in Starcraft is different that processing generalized information and memorizing a set of information. However, I completely agree advice given on this forum, like all the others, shows an inconsistency in professional play and is hardly, if at all, beneficial to a player learning the game.
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Well after reading everything over again, I'm glad people agree with me. I also read many new interesting points that I've never even knew. I advise new players to stay away from this thread. And yeah, the author of this thread had a help request himself awhile back. People learn differently so it seems...
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
LONG OVERDUE THREAD, THANK YOU MISRAH
so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help.
you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything.
stop reading and play more.
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On February 17 2010 06:05 pyrogenetix wrote: LONG OVERDUE THREAD, THANK YOU MISRAH
so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help.
you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything.
stop reading and play more.
The advice you had at the end was probably some of the worse help/advice/whatever a new player can read.
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On February 17 2010 06:05 pyrogenetix wrote: LONG OVERDUE THREAD, THANK YOU MISRAH
so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help.
you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything.
stop reading and play more.
Playing more won't do anything if you can't understand what you're doing wrong. For example, if my timings were wrong, how should I fix them? How important are these upgrades? To expect each individual player, and newbie to come up with the correct conclusion on their own is ridiculous.
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On February 17 2010 06:05 pyrogenetix wrote: LONG OVERDUE THREAD, THANK YOU MISRAH
so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help.
you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything.
stop reading and play more.
I am quoting this just because i find it funny that some one who has been in the community, actually thinks the guide has merit.
Funny how most nay sayers are new players...
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On February 16 2010 15:52 nujgnoy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 15:50 Misrah wrote:On February 16 2010 15:45 nujgnoy wrote:On February 16 2010 15:39 Misrah wrote:On February 16 2010 15:36 nujgnoy wrote: Also, one more decisive example: There was a thread about Strong FD a while back. I watched the rep, and I found that the person made a mistake in the BO. The BO is 9 depot, build depot with the 8th scv that pops out. But what the player actually did was he pulled an scv during 8 and built the depot right when 9 started. So even though it looked as if he made the correct BO (9depot), he lost a ton of mining time and had a ton of wait time which delayed his rax and refinery so much with a too-fast depot that didn't help him at all since he had way too much supply and couldn't use it.
There are such things that you may think that you're doing it right if someone doesn't correct you. These are the worst of habits, and if you never ask for help, you might never know that you were doing this wrong. Once again my point- If that player would have followed my steps, they would have seen that they need to fix their mechanics. Through note taking and extensive replay analysis, that would have been avoided. That is step one of my guide. The thing is that the player WOULD NOT HAVE SEEN THE PROBLEM by himself. I didn't see it until I watched it over 3 times, and I KNOW the BO for strong FD. He did the same BO as on paper, but he did it wrongly. There was NO way he would've figured it out by himself. If he followed your steps, they would NEVER have known the problem. Not even after watching it 50 times. I am going to bed after this, because this is getting exhausting. If you looked over his rep 3times (and i have my doubts) and saw that odd supply depot, and then proceed to notice that his entire BO begins to fall apart because of that supply depot, then certainly- if that player would have given step one of my guide a fair chance, he also would have noticed how off his timing was? No. Not a chance. It took an experienced player a while to notice this problem, then a new player certainly would NOT have noticed it, because it is one of those problems that are deceptive; you THINK you're doing it right, and the liquipedia SEEMS to back up your BO, but you're really doing it wrong. My last post should explain this better with the linked thread with replay.
If he stopped copying build orders off a website and actually put some effort (and by effort I mean put 3 seconds of thought into what was happening on his screen) into understanding what he was doing, he would see doing that had him not mining for several seconds twice, which = "well golly geepers maybe im doing something wrong". This should be common sense to even a new player, making posts and constantly asking for help and copying build orders has probably set him back if anything, he probably has no fundamental understanding of what he's doing and is just pressing buttons.
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On February 17 2010 06:27 PokePill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2010 15:52 nujgnoy wrote:On February 16 2010 15:50 Misrah wrote:On February 16 2010 15:45 nujgnoy wrote:On February 16 2010 15:39 Misrah wrote:On February 16 2010 15:36 nujgnoy wrote: Also, one more decisive example: There was a thread about Strong FD a while back. I watched the rep, and I found that the person made a mistake in the BO. The BO is 9 depot, build depot with the 8th scv that pops out. But what the player actually did was he pulled an scv during 8 and built the depot right when 9 started. So even though it looked as if he made the correct BO (9depot), he lost a ton of mining time and had a ton of wait time which delayed his rax and refinery so much with a too-fast depot that didn't help him at all since he had way too much supply and couldn't use it.
There are such things that you may think that you're doing it right if someone doesn't correct you. These are the worst of habits, and if you never ask for help, you might never know that you were doing this wrong. Once again my point- If that player would have followed my steps, they would have seen that they need to fix their mechanics. Through note taking and extensive replay analysis, that would have been avoided. That is step one of my guide. The thing is that the player WOULD NOT HAVE SEEN THE PROBLEM by himself. I didn't see it until I watched it over 3 times, and I KNOW the BO for strong FD. He did the same BO as on paper, but he did it wrongly. There was NO way he would've figured it out by himself. If he followed your steps, they would NEVER have known the problem. Not even after watching it 50 times. I am going to bed after this, because this is getting exhausting. If you looked over his rep 3times (and i have my doubts) and saw that odd supply depot, and then proceed to notice that his entire BO begins to fall apart because of that supply depot, then certainly- if that player would have given step one of my guide a fair chance, he also would have noticed how off his timing was? No. Not a chance. It took an experienced player a while to notice this problem, then a new player certainly would NOT have noticed it, because it is one of those problems that are deceptive; you THINK you're doing it right, and the liquipedia SEEMS to back up your BO, but you're really doing it wrong. My last post should explain this better with the linked thread with replay. If he stopped copying build orders off a website and actually put some effort (and by effort I mean put 3 seconds of thought into what was happening on his screen) into understanding what he was doing, he would see doing that had him not mining for several seconds twice, which = "well golly geepers maybe im doing something wrong". This should be common sense to even a new player, making posts and constantly asking for help and copying build orders has probably set him back if anything, he probably has no fundamental understanding of what he's doing and is just pressing buttons.
Exactly. Nobody is advocating following things like a robot, rather experience supplemented with good information from guides and help requests is the way to go.
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