I am making this guide for you. The type of person that posts in the strategy forum asking for help.
Learn this: Understanding the problem, before finding the solution is how you learn.
First some background music for your enjoyment
Part One: Why you should stop posting 'help me threads'
Dear Starcraft hopeful- I am telling you the most important piece of advice in your starcraft career: "You are the only person that can fix your problems." You can't fix them by reading more guides, you can't fix them by reading more posts from D players, and you certainly can't fix them by typing exhaustive [H] threads in the strategy forum. If you do not understand why you lost, you need to look through your replay again and again. If after watching your game again and agin take a notepad and a pen. Write down every single mistake. Made a rax at 200? mark that down. Queued up 3 marines at one point? mark that down two. If you go through the entire thing, you should have at least 2 pages.
If that doesn't work- please refer to part two of my guide.
Part Two: When you still don't understand why you lost.
Dear Starcraft hopeful- After you have looked over your replay till exhaustion, and compiled notes- then you may look else where. However realize that if you move to step two, you are conceding the fact that you are too stupid to understand why you lost. At step two you need to go here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Main_Page Read, and re-read everything you can possibly get your hands on. The information posted there is actually useful. And even better- it's not filled with the misleading and idle chatter of 'have not watched your rep but..' or im D but, or im only D- but... If this still does not cure your problem, don't worry! You still have one more steps.
Part Three: When liquidpedia, your brain, and your notes are not enough.
Dear starcraft hopeful- After you have looked over your replay till exhaustion, and compiled notes- and taken a look at liquidpedia, then you can move to step three. In step three- you are going to do the following. Go play more starcraft. Experiment with that same build. Experiment with solutions, that may not always be right- but they will surely give you a very firm grasp as to what is working / not working. In the long run you will have a very deep and rich understanding of the game, and all the variations that one may find while playing.
In conclusion:
Dear starcraft hopeful- I hope that you take what i have said to heart. Following my guide may not be the easiest path. However if you do, you will see imesurable growth in your game play, and will always see an improvement in your skills. Please don't become what i have come to loathe. I hope that you let this information sink slowly into your brain, and let it permeate to the deepest regions of your brain. I hope that it washes away your lazy and impulsive nature. I also hope that it destroys your addiction to the post button.
Thank you for reading my guide. I hope that this has been an informative guide, and i also wish you the best in your starcraft quest. Good luck, and GG's be with you.
On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn?
and also, don't say the reason you are losing is because X race is imba or that X unit is way too overpowered, thats just making excuses to cover up for your weak points.
On February 16 2010 14:21 Seraphim wrote: What is your rank Misrah? :O
Meh doesn't really matter. I only play iccup with my shitty builds / ideas. I am sure that you can find out yourself if your really that interested. I am really not that great.
On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn?
"Hi I play soccer. Help me run faster and think better." or- Help my mechanics! (lol yep I am going to come to your house and show you how to type faster. Please don't think about how to improve, just post a question.) Or better yet (How did i lose??? I have no idea. I thought that I did everything right?) is pretty much the gist of all the [H] threads in strategy. The reason why it is never useful, is because most people are asking for help are looking for a solution. they may find it, however they will never come to understand the problem.
i think the strategy forum is a great place to get personalized help on specific topics, with a wide range of opinions on how to fix your game. A random users input might not be so valuable, whereas another users input is highly regarded around here. Here you get both and everything in between. this came up when i searched help and Misrah
On February 16 2010 14:21 Seraphim wrote: What is your rank Misrah? :O
Meh doesn't really matter. I only play iccup with my shitty builds / ideas. I am sure that you can find out yourself if your really that interested. I am really not that great.
On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn?
"Hi I play soccer. Help me run faster and think better." or- Help my mechanics! (lol yep I am going to come to your house and show you how to type faster. Please don't think about how to improve, just post a question.) Or better yet (How did i lose??? I have no idea. I thought that I did everything right?) is pretty much the gist of all the [H] threads in strategy. The reason why it is never useful, is because most people are asking for help are looking for a solution. they may find it, however they will never come to understand the problem.
I had a forced typing class in my school. Now my WPM is at average 130.
I think when noobs ask for help, it connects them with the community, and helps build it up. Sure, they could simply not post, but then they would be subject to even less human contact, and that's just a drag.
On February 16 2010 14:35 ninazerg wrote: I think when noobs ask for help, it connects them with the community, and helps build it up. Sure, they could simply not post, but then they would be subject to even less human contact, and that's just a drag.
I understand your motivations for writing this post, however I don't think your attitude is any better than those of newbies.
Not all of us have the natural insight needed to see our own mistakes. Sometimes we need an objective eye to help identify the things we missed.
At higher levels players don't need to ask for help, because they have learned to identify their problems. But for intermediate players who grasp the game but sometimes overlook small but important details, the strategy forum is a perfect place for intelligent inquiry and to seek help from other players.
Most posts here don't fit the high standard that I specify above. But that's no reason to ban the smart people from posting on the strategy forum. And even noobs bring in fresh air and remind pros where everyone started.
Even with the creation of liquidpedia, the strategy forum is still a place for intelligent discussion. If you get tired of reading posts by noobs, then it's time to take a break - no one's forcing you to stay here. This forum is one of the central pillars of TL, not a place where you try to impose your standards of posting on others.
On February 16 2010 14:33 ragnasaur wrote: i think the strategy forum is a great place to get personalized help on specific topics, with a wide range of opinions on how to fix your game. A random users input might not be so valuable, whereas another users input is highly regarded around here. Here you get both and everything in between. this came up when i searched help and Misrah
Glad you finally found that!
I am sharing what i have learned from asking for help! It really doesn't help you at all in the long run that's the beauty of it all!
On February 16 2010 14:42 Xstatic wrote: I understand your motivations for writing this post, however I don't think your attitude is any better than those of newbies.
Not all of us have the natural insight needed to see our own mistakes. Sometimes we need an objective eye to help identify the things we missed.
At higher levels players don't need to ask for help, because they have learned to identify their problems. But for intermediate players who grasp the game but sometimes overlook small but important details, the strategy forum is a perfect place for intelligent inquiry and to seek help from other players.
Most posts here don't fit the high standard that I specify above. But that's no reason to ban the smart people from posting on the strategy forum. And even noobs bring in fresh air and remind pros where everyone started.
Even with the creation of liquidpedia, the strategy forum is still a place for intelligent discussion. If you get tired of reading posts by noobs, then it's time to take a break - no one's forcing you to stay here. This forum is one of the central pillars of TL, not a place where you try to impose your standards of posting on others.
I don't have natural insight. I have been playing for some time, and I still suck. It takes me many and many attempts to understand something. I am an idiot.
I am not at a higher level.
Intermediate players do not overlook small aspects of the game, the reason they are intermediate players is because they have polished their game... through experience, and personal understanding.
The strategy forum is not a place for intelligent discussion. You must be joking- strategy is almost as crazy as the blogs sections nowadays.
That's like teaching yourself with a book. Sure learning from the book my get you to point A, but to get to point B and C, you need personalized inputs on specifics. Reading guides are all GENERAL, asking a specific question can help the individual's specific problem.
On February 16 2010 14:21 Seraphim wrote: What is your rank Misrah? :O
Meh doesn't really matter. I only play iccup with my shitty builds / ideas. I am sure that you can find out yourself if your really that interested. I am really not that great.
On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn?
"Hi I play soccer. Help me run faster and think better." or- Help my mechanics! (lol yep I am going to come to your house and show you how to type faster. Please don't think about how to improve, just post a question.) Or better yet (How did i lose??? I have no idea. I thought that I did everything right?) is pretty much the gist of all the [H] threads in strategy. The reason why it is never useful, is because most people are asking for help are looking for a solution. they may find it, however they will never come to understand the problem.
Tennis: 1. Serving motion and style. 2. Grip angle 3. Proper way to hit the ball for topspin/slice 4. Head size
There are more.
The community provides what a coach does: you show them what you've got, and they guide you in the right direction; whether they encourage your current actions or change your course.
If you learn by yourself, many times you learn things the wrong way. A player who picks up tennis by himself may have a harmful serving motion without realizing. This habit will strengthen over time until its harms manifest (wrist problems). Even if the problem isn't permanent (for example, the motion restricted the serve's control), the player now has to lose the habit and pick up the proper way to serve, which he still doesn't know how. In starcraft a comparable example is BBS. You may win a lot because of BBSing, and you say, hey this is great! But if you BBS your way through D+, you're never going to get to C- since BBS won't work against better players. If you spent that much time doing standard build, your overall skills would have been far better than in this case; so, having an input definitely helps.
The problem is that in a sense, those who give advice are lower level players as well, so the input might not be 100% accurate. But whereas having 1 coach with bad input will screw a player (since no one else has the authority to input) having multiple members, such as the community, will have check system where others can correct an invalid input.
You may say that people can just watch progamer vods and replays, but there's big problems with those as well. It's really hard to follow vods because they don't focus on BOs or scouting information etc. It's really difficult to understand a player's rational from a vod that just jumps to different places without a continuity in observing one player. Replays are better. But, the problem is also present that if you don't know what to look for in replays, you can watch 100s of replays and still not get better. I realized just now that watching replays are only effective if you know what to pay attention to. This is comparable to trying to learn tennis from watching a pro play. I don't think you can really go far trying to learn from a pro's motions. You need detailed explanations to pick up the rational, etc. And sometimes you need someone to explain things for you, especially if you're a beginner.
The way I picked up starcraft was gaming (mechanics), reading liquipedia (guide/coach/community input), then gaming again (strategy, understanding of the game, etc.). I've watched vods all throughout the process, but it really doesn't help until after understanding the game, which you need guides (which essentially serve same purpose as inputs, except guides are one-size-fits-all whereas inputs are one-to-one personalized).
Anyways, if your beef with [H] posts is that the posters on TL are D players, then even if that is true, that just points out that the problem is with the posters and the forum, not with the feedback system. If higher posters did provide high quality inputs, then the system would work well. But the fact that higher posters do not post does not mean that the system of asking for help is ineffective.
I think I get the point you're trying to make, most [h] threads nowadays are pretty lame and half the responses in them even more-so, and simply analysing the replay and understanding your obvious mistakes and how the game actually works rather than reproducing what better players tell you to do. However some threads are incredibly productive and definitely still have a place, one that comes to mind is the how to beat turtle terrans on destination thread, that thread was incredibly helpful to probably every protoss that reads this forum.
On February 16 2010 14:54 Seraphim wrote: No offense, but shouldn't you play on a mid-high level in order for your own advice to be valid?
Not at all. Some people are stuck at a lower level of skill because they're too lazy to practice or don't have time, but understand the game well. They can give (potentially) give good advice too.
On February 16 2010 14:21 Seraphim wrote: What is your rank Misrah? :O
Meh doesn't really matter. I only play iccup with my shitty builds / ideas. I am sure that you can find out yourself if your really that interested. I am really not that great.
On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn?
"Hi I play soccer. Help me run faster and think better." or- Help my mechanics! (lol yep I am going to come to your house and show you how to type faster. Please don't think about how to improve, just post a question.) Or better yet (How did i lose??? I have no idea. I thought that I did everything right?) is pretty much the gist of all the [H] threads in strategy. The reason why it is never useful, is because most people are asking for help are looking for a solution. they may find it, however they will never come to understand the problem.
Tennis: 1. Serving motion and style. 2. Grip angle 3. Proper way to hit the ball for topspin/slice 4. Head size
There are more.
The community provides what a coach does: you show them what you've got, and they guide you in the right direction; whether they encourage your current actions or change your course.
If you learn by yourself, many times you learn things the wrong way. A player who picks up tennis by himself may have a harmful serving motion without realizing. This habit will strengthen over time until its harms manifest (wrist problems). Even if the problem isn't permanent (for example, the motion restricted the serve's control), the player now has to lose the habit and pick up the proper way to serve, which he still doesn't know how. In starcraft a comparable example is BBS. You may win a lot because of BBSing, and you say, hey this is great! But if you BBS your way through D+, you're never going to get to C- since BBS won't work against better players. If you spent that much time doing standard build, your overall skills would have been far better than in this case; so, having an input definitely helps.
The problem is that in a sense, those who give advice are lower level players as well, so the input might not be 100% accurate. But whereas having 1 coach with bad input will screw a player (since no one else has the authority to input) having multiple members, such as the community, will have check system where others can correct an invalid input.
You may say that people can just watch progamer vods and replays, but there's big problems with those as well. It's really hard to follow vods because they don't focus on BOs or scouting information etc. It's really difficult to understand a player's rational from a vod that just jumps to different places without a continuity in observing one player. Replays are better. But, the problem is also present that if you don't know what to look for in replays, you can watch 100s of replays and still not get better. I realized just now that watching replays are only effective if you know what to pay attention to. This is comparable to trying to learn tennis from watching a pro play. I don't think you can really go far trying to learn from a pro's motions. You need detailed explanations to pick up the rational, etc. And sometimes you need someone to explain things for you, especially if you're a beginner.
The way I picked up starcraft was gaming (mechanics), reading liquipedia (guide/coach/community input), then gaming again (strategy, understanding of the game, etc.). I've watched vods all throughout the process, but it really doesn't help until after understanding the game, which you need guides (which essentially serve same purpose as inputs, except guides are one-size-fits-all whereas inputs are one-to-one personalized).
Anyways, if your beef with [H] posts is that the posters on TL are D players, then even if that is true, that just points out that the problem is with the posters and the forum, not with the feedback system. If higher posters did provide high quality inputs, then the system would work well. But the fact that higher posters do not post does not mean that the system of asking for help is ineffective.
You don't understand what I was trying to say.
the four examples you are giving me are cold hard facts. There is a right way, and a wrong way to do them. In starcraft- There is no absolute. The problem with asking for help and receiving a solution is this: That solution would only work for that game, on that map, at that time, against that build. fixing your problem in One match may be helpful, however it would be infinitely more helpful to [I[understand[/i] the problem. No one can teach you that. It comes from experience, and many hours of game play. Not reading a single guide, or post.
You may say that people can just watch progamer vods and replays, but there's big problems with those as well. It's really hard to follow vods because they don't focus on BOs or scouting information etc. It's really difficult to understand a player's rational from a vod that just jumps to different places without a continuity in observing one player. Replays are better. But, the problem is also present that if you don't know what to look for in replays, you can watch 100s of replays and still not get better. I realized just now that watching replays are only effective if you know what to pay attention to. This is comparable to trying to learn tennis from watching a pro play. I don't think you can really go far trying to learn from a pro's motions. You need detailed explanations to pick up the rational, etc. And sometimes you need someone to explain things for you, especially if you're a beginner.
I don't talk about watching pro vods at all.
If you learn by yourself, many times you learn things the wrong way. A player who picks up tennis by himself may have a harmful serving motion without realizing.
This is also incorrect. Because eventually as you progress with your play, all of your mistakes will become apparent to you as you play stronger and stronger opponents.
Starcraft is a personal journey. If you really want to learn the game, it all comes down to you. Not posting or reading.
EPT
