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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
For the last time: I never said asking for help is wrong. I also am not saying making H threads is wrong. Lastly I never said asking questions is bad. This guide is there to try and help players craft the correct questions, so they can come to understand the problem. Anyway this thread is getting crAzyyyyyyyyyyy | ||
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
 Helping is like loving. The more the better! | ||
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lone_hydra
Canada1460 Posts
On February 17 2010 01:51 Misrah wrote: This is crazy that people are just putting words into my mouth. This guide does not need novels posted as an answer. For the last time: I never said asking for help is wrong. I also am not saying making H threads is wrong. Lastly I never said asking questions is bad. This guide is there to try and help players craft the correct questions, so they can come to understand the problem. Anyway this thread is getting crAzyyyyyyyyyyy You are advocating a relatively big opinion by stating that creating help threads does not help the player improve. As a result your thread is getting a big and crazy response. You got what you asked for. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn? Practically all of them? Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice. In chess or go, you will get better by reading books about strategy, but you'll improve more quickly by just doing tons of tactics problems in chess, or tesuji and tsumego problems in go. In rock climbing, you don't get better reading online forums or listening to other people talking about how to do something, you just climb more. Maybe you watch another stronger climber do the route/bouldering problem you're trying to do to figure out a better sequence, but that's only maybe 5% of how you spend your time improving. And in starcraft, I was never that good, but I got to C+ on PGT and ICCUP, which is better than most of the people who post in the strategy forum, but I never read the strategy forums much. I did, however, watch a good amount of replays of top zerg players. In fact, watching top professionals in whatever activity you want to get better in is almost always a better way to improve than asking for advice. Top GMs in chess, and top professionals in go always talk about studying games of the top players as the best way to improve. In go, especially, top players claim to have studied every recorded game of Shusaku, and to a lesser extent, Go Seigen. | ||
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amoxicilline
France1124 Posts
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
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huameng
United States1133 Posts
On February 17 2010 02:49 PJA wrote: Practically all of them? Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice. In chess or go, you will get better by reading books about strategy, but you'll improve more quickly by just doing tons of tactics problems in chess, or tesuji and tsumego problems in go. In rock climbing, you don't get better reading online forums or listening to other people talking about how to do something, you just climb more. Maybe you watch another stronger climber do the route/bouldering problem you're trying to do to figure out a better sequence, but that's only maybe 5% of how you spend your time improving. And in starcraft, I was never that good, but I got to C+ on PGT and ICCUP, which is better than most of the people who post in the strategy forum, but I never read the strategy forums much. I did, however, watch a good amount of replays of top zerg players. In fact, watching top professionals in whatever activity you want to get better in is almost always a better way to improve than asking for advice. Top GMs in chess, and top professionals in go always talk about studying games of the top players as the best way to improve. In go, especially, top players claim to have studied every recorded game of Shusaku, and to a lesser extent, Go Seigen. Do you think it's a coincidence almost all top players (top juniors... worse juniors... tons of players) have a coach? Or do you think they would actually be better off without one? I'm an 1800~ chess player, but if I look at some random Carlsen game I'm not going to get anything out of it. I have no fucking clue what that kid thinks while he plays, and no matter how much I stare at the board, most of the time I'm not going to figure it out. This is where asking people for help comes into the picture; annotated games are the same way, since the author is helping you. Also, "Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice." is almost certainly bullshit. You think playing chess 8 hours a day makes you better than playing 6 hours and studying 2? No one is saying "never play BW, just read a bunch of strategy, and you'll get A- your first iccup season!" Tactics problems don't really fall into the mass gaming category of practice, since someone wrote a solution, presumably for you to study from. But that doesn't matter, since Misrah isn't telling people to not ask for help and just learn from Flash, he's asking people to learn from no one and just keep playing until they understand how to be better. On February 17 2010 01:51 Misrah wrote: This is crazy that people are just putting words into my mouth. This guide does not need novels posted as an answer. For the last time: I never said asking for help is wrong. I also am not saying making H threads is wrong. Lastly I never said asking questions is bad. This guide is there to try and help players craft the correct questions, so they can come to understand the problem. Anyway this thread is getting crAzyyyyyyyyyyy "I am telling you the most important piece of advice in your starcraft career: "You are the only person that can fix your problems." You can't fix them by reading more guides, you can't fix them by reading more posts from D players, and you certainly can't fix them by typing exhaustive [H] threads in the strategy forum. If you do not understand why you lost, you need to look through your replay again and again." That seems to say all of "asking for help is wrong, making H threads is wrong, and asking questions is bad". If you're the only person that can fix your problems, asking questions certainly isn't good, so it must be bad. This thread is getting crazy because, at least to me, if everyone agrees with this thread, you are going to actively hurt people trying to get better by telling them to not ask anyone for help and just deal with the game themselves. | ||
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ZeKk
Sweden320 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
And looking at your blog, your last entry on the 25th was a help-me post. This thread largely looks like a personal backlash due asking for strategy advice, and then while getting some answers, they did not make you a significantly better player. What can I say, too bad you are not protoss and asking me for help? Ha. Your point is by and large correct, but poorly, overaggressive, and exaggeratedly communicated (for example, headlines: posting in strategy does not make you better, [you] should stop posting help me threads) One of the fist things I do when helping someone more in depth is mention how I am a source of many details about starcraft, and they can increase their understanding of the game through me, but actually playing well comes down to them...period. Sure, this is something that people posting for strategy advice should recognize, but probably don't actively have in mind. Is posting in the strategy forum pointless - of course not. And sure, maybe someone will get some decent answers to a thread, but will those few answers improve their play significantly...probably not. And neither will spending a comparable amount of time playing. | ||
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
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neVern
United States115 Posts
However, an understanding comes from different methods to an extent; and a balance of these processes is the proper way to learn at high speeds. Developing a skill set in Starcraft is different that processing generalized information and memorizing a set of information. However, I completely agree advice given on this forum, like all the others, shows an inconsistency in professional play and is hardly, if at all, beneficial to a player learning the game. | ||
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help. you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything. stop reading and play more. | ||
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
On February 17 2010 06:05 pyrogenetix wrote: LONG OVERDUE THREAD, THANK YOU MISRAH so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help. you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything. stop reading and play more. The advice you had at the end was probably some of the worse help/advice/whatever a new player can read. | ||
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
On February 17 2010 06:05 pyrogenetix wrote: LONG OVERDUE THREAD, THANK YOU MISRAH so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help. you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything. stop reading and play more. Playing more won't do anything if you can't understand what you're doing wrong. For example, if my timings were wrong, how should I fix them? How important are these upgrades? To expect each individual player, and newbie to come up with the correct conclusion on their own is ridiculous. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On February 17 2010 06:05 pyrogenetix wrote: LONG OVERDUE THREAD, THANK YOU MISRAH so many new to the game go on iccup, get their faces smashed into a brick wall by people who have just outplayed them in every god damn aspect of the game, then come here with their 130 apm replays and ask for help. you just got outplayed. GO PLAY MORE. there's nothing really to talk about. you've not been building workers, not macroed, not microing, not expanding, wrong timings, forgot upgrades... everything. stop reading and play more. I am quoting this just because i find it funny that some one who has been in the community, actually thinks the guide has merit. Funny how most nay sayers are new players... | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:52 nujgnoy wrote: No. Not a chance. It took an experienced player a while to notice this problem, then a new player certainly would NOT have noticed it, because it is one of those problems that are deceptive; you THINK you're doing it right, and the liquipedia SEEMS to back up your BO, but you're really doing it wrong. My last post should explain this better with the linked thread with replay. If he stopped copying build orders off a website and actually put some effort (and by effort I mean put 3 seconds of thought into what was happening on his screen) into understanding what he was doing, he would see doing that had him not mining for several seconds twice, which = "well golly geepers maybe im doing something wrong". This should be common sense to even a new player, making posts and constantly asking for help and copying build orders has probably set him back if anything, he probably has no fundamental understanding of what he's doing and is just pressing buttons. | ||
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pat965
Canada274 Posts
On February 17 2010 06:27 PokePill wrote: If he stopped copying build orders off a website and actually put some effort (and by effort I mean put 3 seconds of thought into what was happening on his screen) into understanding what he was doing, he would see doing that had him not mining for several seconds twice, which = "well golly geepers maybe im doing something wrong". This should be common sense to even a new player, making posts and constantly asking for help and copying build orders has probably set him back if anything, he probably has no fundamental understanding of what he's doing and is just pressing buttons. Exactly. Nobody is advocating following things like a robot, rather experience supplemented with good information from guides and help requests is the way to go. | ||
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