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On April 06 2010 12:33 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 11:02 BruceLee6783 wrote:
They are still replicating his old strats, no matter how many layers of polishing they may have added What are you expecting, a new unit to be invented? If you want to see innovation in current starcraft, you just have to open your eyes. On-topic, I really like Misrah's OP! It's not "don't ask for help", it's "don't ask for help until you've thought it through yourself", which is the absolute best way to improve. Practice, reflect, discuss --- if you skip the "reflect" step you're missing out. Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 12:31 Ver wrote:
Boxer isn't even in the same galaxy as oov and Savior in terms of quality/quantity of innovation and influence, and Flash is not far behind. That's a bit strong, no? Mind games and micro have their honorable place in starcraft, and Boxer basically wrote the book on those. (Also, he's the first person I saw use any kind of Valkonic build, although of course it was off one base --- against Killer in one of the GOM tournaments. I think Fantasy's first televised usage of valkyries came shortly after that. I just mention it because you included Valkonic on your list.)
No, that game against Killer game after every Terran on SKT1 was experimenting with mech builds. In fact, back when SKT1 first started experimenting and started the whole mech era phase, Boxer was still on ACE. Fantasy was the first person that used valk builds in the modern context in a way of a viable build that has the stability and strength to be used as a "standard" build rather than as just a 1-time use novelty.
And Boxer really pales in comparison to iloveoov and Savior when it comes to how much they have influenced the way people think and play today. Much more so for iloveoov. A lot of people discredit Flash and still disparage him as a "macro bot" and it's so infuriatingly annoying because Flash is hands down the most influential player of post-Savior BW. Yes, Bisu was the one that fully nailed forge fe stargate play as the absolute standard in PvZ but Flash also really changed how TvP is played since Katrina and his style of upgrade Terran in TvP has prevailed as the standard even when Fantasy had a great deal of success with his own different style. In TvZ he had blown up the mentality of defending within your base during mutalisk timing. And it happened all of a sudden right in everyone's face, and so many people don't realize how big of a deal it was. Flash broke like 3-4 years of TvZ mentality against mutalisks in a single game and then he also stomped on the mentality that letting a Zerg take his fourth gas is a death sentence for the Terran. These are years standard thought that Flash pretty much destroyed in weeks.
Flash deserves recognition for being the one that has pretty much lead almost every lasting Terran innovation in his time since Savior. There is no Zerg or Protoss player that can claim the same.
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I always assumed that people who posted for help have already thought it through and are looking for second opinions or more insight. While it's great to always play a lot and be diligent about analyzing your game, the fact remains that there will always be people with more "answers" than you have -- thus you can speed up your learning if you can discern good information from bad. IMO, the "problem" lies in people not specifying what ranks they want help from. It's not going to be beneficial if every time you ask for help, only people below your level are giving you advice.
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I'm in college at the moment and recently while doing a homework assignment I came across a math problem I just couldn't get the right answer to. I tried for a good 15 minutes to break down the parts of the relatively simple problem and for some reason could not find my error. By this time I had been working on my assignment for about an hour, with another math assignment before it taking around two hours as well, so I had effectively been staring at my own handwriting on clean, lined white sheets of paper for three hours straight. Eventually I gave up and went to see my instructor just before class to help me with this one problem I just couldn't nail down. What I missed was simply a negative sign. Basic, simple, humble little negative sign.
I agree that we should take the responsibility of finding an answer for our question upon ourselves, however, sometimes taking that responsibility is done by asking the right question. When you've been staring at replays for hours, working yourself silly analyzing your play, often times it's the things we take for granted, like that +2 attack upgrade you KNOW you got, you neglect to check. Another objective view comes along and spots your mistake immediately.
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hmmm,i have big problem.when i make mutalisk i win the games,but when i make 3 hatch into 2 hidralisk i sometimes lost,becuose my macro was bad,i dont know how fix
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Mmmm. Winter....
I always heard the first part on diamond commericals but never knew.
Well, thanks for the listen. Pretty great stuff...
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Haters gunna hate.
Players gunna play.
Don't hate the playa hate the game.
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I can't believe how quickly this thread has grown in size... obviously it would be inflammatory since many people replying are long time followers of the strategy forums. I'm not saying that it's trollish, it's a topic of serious debate.. however it did generate a lot of discussion.
On February 16 2010 13:39 Misrah wrote:
Part One: Why you should stop posting 'help me threads'
If you do not understand why you lost, you need to look through your replay again and again. If after watching your game again and agin take a notepad and a pen. Write down every single mistake. Made a rax at 200? mark that down. Queued up 3 marines at one point? mark that down two. If you go through the entire thing, you should have at least 2 pages.
I do this for a lot of my games. I have a folder with like at least fifteen sheets of paper about my games and what I could have done to do better in them.
On February 16 2010 13:39 Misrah wrote:
Go play more starcraft.
Watching replays and doing this is the correct way to improve...(Just look at how much the Pros practice) but I wouldn't say strategy guides are worthless. People should at least give the starcraft compendium a proper readthrough... just being mindful of what they say counters what... That part is outdated.
edit: I would still post in the strategy forum though... just sparingly.
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how is this still not locked? lol. I'm surprised people are arguing about Misrah even though I'm pretty sure he doesn't come here any more lol.(@ strategy forums)
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On April 07 2010 02:04 3FFA wrote:
how is this still not locked? lol. I'm surprised people are arguing about Misrah even though I'm pretty sure he doesn't come here any more lol.(@ strategy forums)
im here in spirit.
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If you want to improve as fast as possible then what he said is quite true, [H] threads are often like a "ok plz tell me , I don`t wanna figure out by myself" give up button.
It all depends on how and why the [H] thread is made and it can be as helpful as it can be bad for improvement.
Though it greatly helps to develop community, lets people share their opinions and experience from their starcraft journey , its definetely a good thing overall imo.
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On April 07 2010 03:31 Misrah wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2010 02:04 3FFA wrote:
how is this still not locked? lol. I'm surprised people are arguing about Misrah even though I'm pretty sure he doesn't come here any more lol.(@ strategy forums) im here in spirit.
lol! Apparently! Since everyone is arguing with u when your not even talking u must be!
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i don't want to argue when i am right. Most that disagree are new- and i don't feel like arguing with people that have already made up their minds.
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Should go repost this in starcraft 2 strategy. I agree with it completely.
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the point is that most people starting threads in the strat forum these days are asking the wrong questions. The question is not "what did I do wrong?" but instead "what did I do right?". Most people are making far too many mistakes and are so far behind in their play that even if they make the right decisions and the right moves, I know for a fact that they will still get slammed.
imagine you are fighting in a ring vs an experienced mma fighter. you are nowhere near fast/strong enough nor have the technique or reflexes. vs experienced sc players, your reaction speed is shit, you don't know the map, you don't know the positions your army should take at certain points of time to block certain builds/attacks.
so no, making an H thread will not help you much. you are simply looking for an easy excuse to not playing more games and getting the necessary mechanics down. of course it's ok to ask if you really don't know, but 99/100 times the OP knows what he's doing wrong.
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Every player could use some better mechanics too.
Any strategy that matters these days needs to be backed
by good mechanics. It really is that simple.
But everyone here knows that, ofc.
People posting [H] threads SHOULD know
this instinctively too.
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On February 16 2010 14:34 kineSiS- wrote:
I had a forced typing class in my school. Now my WPM is at average 130.
As did I... they don't work.
However, I type at 160wpm but my APM is garbage (never officially measured, but I can just tell visually)
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probably more important that instead of asking anyone for help try to find the right person to help you. try to find someone who plays the same race as you and is a few ranks better, and go over replays with them as they can usually do a really good job of telling you where you went wrong 
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From my personal experience, you have to learn the game a couple times. Not going to go over all the stages now, just want to tell you that I totally agree, that when you are learning the game, you can help yourself more than anyone else. However, strategy forum is still very useful for discussing specific opinions and problems.
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if it werent for the strategy forum i'd have never known that you need dragoons vs a low-econ mass hydra build. seriously all three steps do not apply.
(1) ok, so i write down every little mistake. didnt rally a few gates, slightly late robotics, things like that. i still wouldnt have known.
(2)liquipedia doesnt mention how to deal with certain unit compositions, it just talks about BOs and random things like storm dodging or magic boxes. nowhere in liquipedia does it mention that you need dragoons vs mass hydra.
(3) LOL i would have continued to mass zealots and templar in every single following game i played, and therefore STILL wouldn't have learned. i mean dragoons suck vs hydras so you can't blame me when i dont use them right?
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EPT
