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On April 05 2010 23:09 Batibot wrote:
It is NOT bad to ask for advice. Be sure to find out YOU, YOURSELF on what's wrong with your play. Of course, you will know that something is wrong thru the guides that you have read and the advice you've received from other people. If you still aren't contented with your play and have really tried your best on improving but is still stuck on something, you ask for help. You're not supposed to ask for help each time you fall, most of the time you have to get back on your feet by yourself.
Sports need to have coaches because you have to have someone telling you what's wrong with what you're doing but, in starcraft you have replays. You can watch it over and over again. Now, coach for sc teams would devise strategy, find holes in opponent's play. That way, their coach can go with the "thinking", "outplanning" your opponents while you can practice and practice and practice.
TLDR
Find the answer within yourself before asking for help, it's just that there are many [H] threads asking for help wherein they could tell what's wrong with their gameplay just by looking thru their rep one more time.
Why did you revive this stupid thread?
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On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote:
Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn?
Exactly. When i play football i always ask everyone why i dropped the ball. They're always so helpful
Bottom line of this thread is that terrible play cannot be guided. You simply have to keep playing and get the fundamentals down before you can do anything better. Granted yes, people can watch your replay and say "oh, you went for a FE but you laid your hatchery down at 500 minerals"
....But do you really need people to tell you this?
When you're about a C level player or higher I could see asking for help on deep strategic problems, but having sloppy gameplay cannot be rectified with advice.
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I understand exactly what Misrah is saying.
People come here looking for advice are almost always looking for a "shortcut" to magically improve their game. The thing is, they're not going to find one.
Any advice that someone gives you (pro or not), is not going to get you where you want to be right away. YOU have to go find some things out on your own, instead of RELYING ON EVERYONE ELSE TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOU.
You get what you put in.
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Have you ever watched "exciting" players from back in the early 2000's like Boxer or Tsunami who don't seem to play like ANYONE else you had ever seen? It's because they put the time in to learn the game on their own. They didn't mindlessly copy replays. They understand some things about the game that even today's top rated Kespa players do not yet understand.
Someone mentioned Boxer coaching other players? That is why.
There's really not much else to say about this topic...
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I think a lot of people don't watch progames enough and really study how progamers use specific builds and the different ways they transition in the midgame and lategame. It takes up tons of time and I don't do it anymore, but when I first started really playing I seriously watched every single ZvT and ZvP game that showed up in the VOD thread. And you need to stop asking people for help every single time you play a game and just sit down and play and play until you understand why you are winning or losing in the middle of the game and if at a loss as to why you lost even after watching the replay then you watch an applicable progame.
tbh I sometimes don't even really think it's a good idea to even really ask questions on this forum as most people don't really know what they're talking about and for a beginner it is sometimes difficult to really tell who actually knows what they're talking about and those that are just spewing a load of shit. The only way you can bypass this phase and be able to filter out the good advice is by watching tons of games and playing. I do understand that it is more difficult for non-Korean speaking players to get the same amount of information out of progames because they can't understand what the commentators are saying, and also because the really really good non-Koreans that commentate on games don't commentate on all games like Day9, but there isn't really a super easy way around it besides lots of watching, reading, and playing.
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On April 06 2010 04:00 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Have you ever watched "exciting" players from back in the early 2000's like Boxer or Tsunami who don't seem to play like ANYONE else you had ever seen? It's because they put the time in to learn the game on their own. They didn't mindlessly copy replays. They understand some things about the game that even today's top rated Kespa players do not yet understand.
Someone mentioned Boxer coaching other players? That is why.
There's really not much else to say about this topic...
No.
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On April 06 2010 04:15 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:00 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Have you ever watched "exciting" players from back in the early 2000's like Boxer or Tsunami who don't seem to play like ANYONE else you had ever seen? It's because they put the time in to learn the game on their own. They didn't mindlessly copy replays. They understand some things about the game that even today's top rated Kespa players do not yet understand.
Someone mentioned Boxer coaching other players? That is why.
There's really not much else to say about this topic... No.
No what?
Guys, in short, Misrah is trying to save all of the [H] posters lots of time by sacrificing some of his own, and if that isn't appreciated, then you don't get it.
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Wow I didn't realize this thread wasn't locked from all the flaming on Misrah. O and, to the poster above me, what don't I get then?
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On April 06 2010 04:41 BruceLee6783 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:15 koreasilver wrote:On April 06 2010 04:00 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Have you ever watched "exciting" players from back in the early 2000's like Boxer or Tsunami who don't seem to play like ANYONE else you had ever seen? It's because they put the time in to learn the game on their own. They didn't mindlessly copy replays. They understand some things about the game that even today's top rated Kespa players do not yet understand.
Someone mentioned Boxer coaching other players? That is why.
There's really not much else to say about this topic... No. No what? Guys, in short, Misrah is trying to save all of the [H] posters lots of time by sacrificing some of his own, and if that isn't appreciated, then you don't get it.
You are hilariously wrong if you think Boxer and Tsunami understand the game more than any of the players on the top of the KESPA rankings.
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On April 06 2010 05:14 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:41 BruceLee6783 wrote:On April 06 2010 04:15 koreasilver wrote:On April 06 2010 04:00 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Have you ever watched "exciting" players from back in the early 2000's like Boxer or Tsunami who don't seem to play like ANYONE else you had ever seen? It's because they put the time in to learn the game on their own. They didn't mindlessly copy replays. They understand some things about the game that even today's top rated Kespa players do not yet understand.
Someone mentioned Boxer coaching other players? That is why.
There's really not much else to say about this topic... No. No what? Guys, in short, Misrah is trying to save all of the [H] posters lots of time by sacrificing some of his own, and if that isn't appreciated, then you don't get it. You are hilariously wrong if you think Boxer and Tsunami understand the game more than any of the players on the top of the KESPA rankings.
They know some things that 300+apm mechanics cannot help you with. That's all I'm saying.
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Another one of those "all Koreans/new players are mindless macro drones".
rofl.
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Think of the ramifications of being the first gosu's in history. Who did they learn from?
Todays top rated players have reference access to tons of old replays/VODS to get them to a high level of play without all the hard work involved in researching a game that had not been mapped out yet.
BW is much more outlined and mapped out today for people looking to improve.
There are tons of builds and strategies waiting to be discovered, but you won't probably
ever see because no one has seen a pro using it yet.
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On April 06 2010 05:26 koreasilver wrote:
Another one of those "all Koreans/new players are mindless macro drones".
rofl.
You put absolutely zero effort into this post.
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On April 06 2010 05:21 BruceLee6783 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 05:14 koreasilver wrote:On April 06 2010 04:41 BruceLee6783 wrote:On April 06 2010 04:15 koreasilver wrote:On April 06 2010 04:00 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Have you ever watched "exciting" players from back in the early 2000's like Boxer or Tsunami who don't seem to play like ANYONE else you had ever seen? It's because they put the time in to learn the game on their own. They didn't mindlessly copy replays. They understand some things about the game that even today's top rated Kespa players do not yet understand.
Someone mentioned Boxer coaching other players? That is why.
There's really not much else to say about this topic... No. No what? Guys, in short, Misrah is trying to save all of the [H] posters lots of time by sacrificing some of his own, and if that isn't appreciated, then you don't get it. You are hilariously wrong if you think Boxer and Tsunami understand the game more than any of the players on the top of the KESPA rankings. They know some things that 300+apm mechanics cannot help you with. That's all I'm saying.
Coming up with fancy creative build orders =/= understanding of the game. Knowing exactly what to do and when and why and how, and what your opponent can do in every situation = understanding the game. Reacting instantaneously, instinctively, and correctly to what your opponent is doing (what you scout) = understanding the game. That's something that all of the top korean players have atm. That's why we get the same kinds of macro games over and over, with slight variations in build order. It's all about optimization and taking risks and knowing how and when you can pull it off. This kind of intelligence isn't very observable to casual spectators, as opposed to emp/nuking nexuses, but it's what makes the difference between Flash and go.go. The bottom line is there's so much going on in standard play, but hardly anyone really appreciates it. They just think it's another boring game when it's really so much more.
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There's no point in putting effort into answering back to a post that has no basis and is generally best to just be ignored.
I mean, your whole post talking about how recent players have reference to much more resources and have years of experience and experimentation to work on. Your entire post can be used for my argument that you are wrong.
Not to mention the fact that you think that you are trying to insinuate that modern players don't experiment and innovate... which anyone who actually watches the game would know is flat out wrong.
I put far too much effort into replying back to you.
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On April 06 2010 05:30 BruceLee6783 wrote:
Think of the ramifications of being the first gosu's in history. Who did they learn from?
Todays top rated players have reference access to tons of old replays/VODS to get them to a high level of play without all the hard work involved in researching a game that had not been mapped out yet.
BW is much more outlined and mapped out today for people looking to improve.
There are tons of builds and strategies waiting to be discovered, but you won't probably
ever see because no one has seen a pro using it yet.
Of course there are tons of different builds and strategies that the pros don't use. You can try any sort of creative build you want and try to make it viable. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The problem is you perfect the strategy, use it on iCCup, quickly rank up to D+, C-, C, C+, maybe even B-. But then you hit a brick wall and you can't go further because it just doesn't work CONSISTENTLY anymore. Consistency is what dominates the current builds, because at higher levels people are playing to win. And you want to be able to win 100% of the time, not just 50%. You want to be able to win based on your own skill - by outplaying your opponent, not because your opponent fails to react properly. That's why you use optimized builds. These builds don't have to be exactly the same as ones used by the Koreans (hell, the build I use nearly every single ZvP is nowhere close to any Korean "standard" build). That's where your creativity comes in. You adjust the standard build so it works for you. You optimize it so you can get the maximum advantage possible against your opponent in every situation, taking into account the current builds people commonly use (which are, more often than not, copied from progamers). You don't have to pull a nuke rush to be creative; you just have to discover your own style. At higher levels, you start to realize that these subtle differences in style are what define a player, and not making up crazy build orders.
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On April 06 2010 05:36 koreasilver wrote:
There's no point in putting effort into answering back to a post that has no basis and is generally best to just be ignored.
I mean, your whole post talking about how recent players have reference to much more resources and have years of experience and experimentation to work on. Your entire post can be used for my argument that you are wrong.
Not to mention the fact that you think that you are trying to insinuate that modern players don't experiment and innovate... which anyone who actually watches the game would know is flat out wrong.
I put far too much effort into replying back to you.
At least this post has some substance, but no one can argue my experience.
I am not talking about build orders. I'm talking about being sneaky, and the kind of sneaky
that doesn't involve hiding tech buildings.
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Yes, which progamers do all the time.
And yes, we can all argue against your experience since you seem to be very misguided in how you interpret the state of the game. It isn't a stretch at all to say that you are just completely wrong.
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Then please explain why current top rated players want old schoolers to coach them.
Tell me what having a coach is good for if current top players understand more than their coach does.
Do you believe the coaches exist only to offer encouragement?
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to both you and your sig
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EPT
