EPT[G] Posting in Strategy does not make you better - Page 6
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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expendable
United States17 Posts
Also, "Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice." is almost certainly bullshit. You think playing chess 8 hours a day makes you better than playing 6 hours and studying 2? No one is saying "never play BW, just read a bunch of strategy, and you'll get A- your first iccup season!" Tactics problems don't really fall into the mass gaming category of practice, since someone wrote a solution, presumably for you to study from. But that doesn't matter, since Misrah isn't telling people to not ask for help and just learn from Flash, he's asking people to learn from no one and just keep playing until they understand how to be better. I wonder why you seem to think playing and studying are so seperate. What I think Misrah is saying is that you should study your own games by yourself, so that you learn to teach yourself how to improve. It doesn't matter if you know that you can counter double nexus with fact cc fact if you lose all your tanks to dragoons when you push out due to bad micro/positioning. I am a musician, been playing for ~6 years, will be going to a conservatory next year... In all my years of playing, I practice on my own for 5-6 hours every day and I have an hour long lesson once a week. Having a lesson every day would be pointless; there wouldn't be time to really grasp everything from the previous lesson. My teacher once told me something that has stuck with me: "I am not teaching you to play guitar, I am teaching you to teach yourself to play guitar". Many many many of the strategy posts here are people looking for someone to solve all their problems, without the poster doing any work. To me, it feels like 75%+ of the posts could be answered by reading Liquidipidia and doing some self analysis, as Misrah suggests. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
You may win a lot because of BBSing, and you say, hey this is great! But if you BBS your way through D+, you're never going to get to C- since BBS won't work against better players BBS works at any level in a BO1. But yea, learning "standard" is always ideal. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8603 Posts
ROFL | ||
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Nal_rAwr
United States2611 Posts
On February 16 2010 14:23 huameng wrote: Totally disagree with this "guide". For what other game, sport, activity, is not asking for help the best way to learn? using a basic guide to learn to build a suit of armor helps you learn more thoroughly than to piece together pieces of wood, plastic, and metal to make a rickety suit of armor | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
Edit: Lol at pie | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On February 17 2010 03:53 huameng wrote: Do you think it's a coincidence almost all top players (top juniors... worse juniors... tons of players) have a coach? Or do you think they would actually be better off without one? I'm an 1800~ chess player, but if I look at some random Carlsen game I'm not going to get anything out of it. I have no fucking clue what that kid thinks while he plays, and no matter how much I stare at the board, most of the time I'm not going to figure it out. This is where asking people for help comes into the picture; annotated games are the same way, since the author is helping you. Also, "Asking for advice every now and then is a useful way to learn in any activity, but practicing relentlessly is a million times more productive than asking for advice." is almost certainly bullshit. You think playing chess 8 hours a day makes you better than playing 6 hours and studying 2? No one is saying "never play BW, just read a bunch of strategy, and you'll get A- your first iccup season!" Tactics problems don't really fall into the mass gaming category of practice, since someone wrote a solution, presumably for you to study from. But that doesn't matter, since Misrah isn't telling people to not ask for help and just learn from Flash, he's asking people to learn from no one and just keep playing until they understand how to be better. I think that most top player in chess probably have a higher ratio than 3:1 playing/studing:getting coaching. I'm only about as strong as you at chess, though, so I'm not certain about that. But I do go to UMBC, which has a number of strong chess players. All of the 2000-2300 players that go to chess club, which is a good number of them, definitely spend more time mass gaming and studying alone than talking to anyone else. I can't really say how the GMs at UMBC study, since they don't really hang out with the chess club, other than Timur Gareev, who now goes to another school, and Bruci Lopez, before he graduated. Timur I'm pretty sure didn't study or talk to others much about chess, since he insisted that any chess player who has to study a lot doesn't have any talent (not that I agree, since I would say Fiscer was very talented, but he spent 6+ hours a day studying). I don't know if you're very familiar with go, but I'm much better at go than at chess, and I've never been coached, outside of attending a few lectures at go congress. Most of my gains have been from studying professional games, playing a ton, and studying L&D and tesuji problems. Eric Lui, who is one of the top 5 amateur US players goes to UMBC, and although he has gotten some coaching, he just spends tons of time playing through every big tournament game to learn current joseki/opening ideas and playing on KGS. I think that probably in go more than chess even a relatively weak player can learn a lot from studying professional games, so perhaps studying chess games without any annotation would be difficult for a weak player. On the other hand, I bet if you actually sat down and spent an hour or two per game studying Magnus Carlsen's games, and studied 1-3 per day, you would improve dramatically. In regards to the comment that for tactics problems "someone wrote a solution, presumably for you to study from," I think maybe this is accurate for chess, but in go, many top professionals say that you should study tsumego without the solutions, since the solution will not help you learn if you do not already understand, and that the process of reading out the solution is much more beneficial. I don't think that coaching is entirely pointless, but I do think that to actually improve in most things, coaching shouldn't consume more than maybe 5-10% of your time spent at the game. It doesn't matter how much you understand build orders, timings, etc. if you get out-macro'd and out-micro'd the entire game. Similarly, it doesn't matter how much you understand positional advantages in chess or go if you get raped in tactics all game. I got to C+ on PGT and ICCUP playing retarded strategies, like just going sauron style. As long as you can dodge storms halfway decently most players just get raped. | ||
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Alphonsse
United States518 Posts
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
when I say GO PLAY MORE i dont mean go on iccup and continuously play mindlessly and get your face kicked in. what I mean is watch some pro replays and get a standard build order down. example would be protoss one gate range obs vs terran. write the build down and you keep doing it. can do it vs comps first since it doesnt matter what the fuck happens later on in the game, you just need to keep your probe production rolling and everything else smooth as fucking silk. not a fucking god damn pylon block ever and your money should be below 300 at all times. you should be hitting everything smack dead center. keep doing it until you're like me who sometimes starts freaking out thinking I didn't build a pylon and will get supply blocked but then a pylon warps in that I built already and didn't realize I built. this sounds like im bragging to you newbie players but it's true. THIS IS HOW GOOD YOU NEED TO BE TO PLAY SC. its not fucking dota for christs sake. some kid came in with a replay saying he got overrun by 2fact vult when he went 2gate range obs. what the fuck is that shit? obviously he got outplayed but what the fuck do i say? you really need to be fast and YES APM DOESNT MEAN A THING ALL THAT JAZZ but seriously the higher your apm the better you are because you're not even pausing for a split second to think about what you are doing next and thus wasting time. you are constantly highly aware of things that you have to do and prioritize them in your mind and then do them. hot bid had a pretty good post on PvT "how to get C-" or somethng ............................................ ok after a bit of digging around I cant find it if someone finds it please post here or something it's exactly what you newbies should be practicing. basically you start by training probe production and your nexus should NEVER stop building probes. then you train making units and your gateways should never stop. this of course means pylon production as well. if you can do these three things you should be C- pvt. dont even need upgrades or storm. what i'm saying, is that you people need to work on your mechanics because it doesnt fucking matter what you're doing, if you are as much as 5 seconds behind in your build you're BEHIND. yes im serious and others would agree 5 secs is enough to change the game. then when you are done with one build order you learn how it branches out depending on what you scout. then you practice those branches of tech and what should be done. then do another build order and so on. practice building placement. what building placement makes for better defence (from harass/drops/cloaked), better macro cycles, better space usage. spend a week or two just on building placement. practice your hotkeys. get used to changing hotkeys. army position. where is your army. what is your army movement speed. scouting. keeping your scout alive as long as possible. what do you see? what should you be looking for? what is he doing? learn the maps. what are key points on this map. where can tanks reach? how many units to block this choke? where to build turrets for minimum turret number yet covering all the space for drops. ALL THIS STUFF COMES FROM PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE and THEN when you find that little thing that's holding you back, that you find you have problems with constantly and have identified it but still cannot solve it, THEN you come back and post replays and ask for help. enough of this god damn "races are imba" or "here's a replay what do i do" bullshit. chances are you got fucking outplayed by raw mechanics and no amount of tweaking your build order or whatever other bullshit is going to help. | ||
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pyrogenetix
China5098 Posts
On February 17 2010 09:13 Alphonsse wrote: I just dislike the help threads where the OP says "yeah I know my macro was awful and I fucked up my BO and I got supply capped and I didn't micro at all but what else could I have done???" It's like.. you just pointed out the biggest flaws in your game, go fix those before you ask. hahahahahahahah exactly its like some runner comes up and says "ok i know i weigh like 200kg and I'm a little slow and never train but how can I run that 100m race faster?" I'm just like... speechless | ||
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Manbear
Canada306 Posts
On February 17 2010 09:29 pyrogenetix wrote: its like some runner comes up and says "ok i know i weigh like 200kg and I'm a little slow and never train but how can I run that 100m race faster?" this is a great analogy for certain [H] threads | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
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PiePie
United States248 Posts
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
 Liquipedia. There's links now btw. | ||
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
To recognize that some people believe they know the game well enough, how about this: If the information you need you are unable to gleam from reading LP and reading strat forums, how does it need to be presented so that you can make sense of it? Does it need to be about a single game? Is it difficult to accept information that is a rule and not situational. I'd actually like to know as users of the strat forum what you need from us in order for you to play the game. I mean we answer all of your questions. We spoon fed you game knowledge in the most trusted format on the internet. Knowledge, which by the way people are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to come up with. It's not incorrect by any means. What do you need from us? We really want to give it to you. Maybe not Misrah right now because he's frustrated (sorry to assume your gender) but in general we really do. What do you need? | ||
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