EPTThere are such things that you may think that you're doing it right if someone doesn't correct you. These are the worst of habits, and if you never ask for help, you might never know that you were doing this wrong.
[G] Posting in Strategy does not make you better - Page 3
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
There are such things that you may think that you're doing it right if someone doesn't correct you. These are the worst of habits, and if you never ask for help, you might never know that you were doing this wrong. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:32 nujgnoy wrote: This clearly implies that the inputs you get are because they are from D players. And if you are not emphasizing the poster's rank aspect, you must mean that getting posts from A+ players won't help you either. Also, you say experiment with new solutions, try a new build order. The problem is, a player who doesn't understand why they lost in the first place won't be able to have the comprehension to decide whether a BO works or not. Maybe you mean a player should get the BO from liquipedia. The BO information is great, but you can't win by memorizing and executing the list. There are LOTS of little details that maybe wrong with your gameplay that you may not realize (macro problems, micro problems, etc.). Things that you didn't think about that could help you (creative things such as cliff dropping that new players often don't think of). Understanding the Flash build page will NOT let you win games alone. There are game specific things such as push timing, 3rd timing, etc that you may not realize by yourself that are obvious to someone who is more experienced, despite that someone not being an A+ player. So let me get this straight- If a new player doesn't understand the game, and reading a bunch of posts isn't going to help... Then the only way is to read a post about the solution to the problem that they don't understand? Like I have said before It will not help you if you simply find a solution to the problem, if you do not understand the problem first. The only way to understand the problem at hand is through replay analysis, note taking, and play testing. Which i have been advocating with my 3 step guide. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:36 nujgnoy wrote: Also, one more decisive example: There was a thread about Strong FD a while back. I watched the rep, and I found that the person made a mistake in the BO. The BO is 9 depot, build depot with the 8th scv that pops out. But what the player actually did was he pulled an scv during 8 and built the depot right when 9 started. So even though it looked as if he made the correct BO (9depot), he lost a ton of mining time and had a ton of wait time which delayed his rax and refinery so much with a too-fast depot that didn't help him at all since he had way too much supply and couldn't use it. There are such things that you may think that you're doing it right if someone doesn't correct you. These are the worst of habits, and if you never ask for help, you might never know that you were doing this wrong. Once again my point- If that player would have followed my steps, they would have seen that they need to fix their mechanics. Through note taking and extensive replay analysis, that would have been avoided. That is step one of my guide. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:37 Misrah wrote: So let me get this straight- If a new player doesn't understand the game, and reading a bunch of posts isn't going to help... Then the only way is to read a post about the solution to the problem that they don't understand? Like I have said before It will not help you if you simply find a solution to the problem, if you do not understand the problem first. The only way to understand the problem at hand is through replay analysis, note taking, and play testing. Which i have been advocating with my 3 step guide. Reading posts that tell a person what to pay attention will help. The problem with finding your own solution is that you don't always find the right solution. Do you learn calculus by yourself with a textbook? No, you need to have teachers in the following process: 1. Teacher teaches general principles 2. student does homework with mistakes 3. Teacher corrects the mistakes, emphasizing the small details to look out for 4. student practices over and over again and perfects it. You're advocating that people should not have #3, that students should learn by themselves the little details that hard difficult to pick up. If you've ever taken any math class you know that there are always small details that you always forget unless a teacher reminds you again and again and again. You then practice after these reminders. [H] threads are supposed to be sort of like homework, where you read a general principle (liquipedia). After you lost a game, you put up a replay and ask for what were wrong. The posters are supposed to point out the more detailed problems for the player to pay particular attention to and improve. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:39 Misrah wrote: Once again my point- If that player would have followed my steps, they would have seen that they need to fix their mechanics. Through note taking and extensive replay analysis, that would have been avoided. That is step one of my guide. The thing is that the player WOULD NOT HAVE SEEN THE PROBLEM by himself. I didn't see it until I watched it over 3 times, and I KNOW the BO for strong FD. He did the same BO as on paper, but he did it wrongly. There was NO way he would've figured it out by himself. If he followed your steps, they would NEVER have known the problem. Not even after watching it 50 times. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:43 nujgnoy wrote: Reading posts that tell a person what to pay attention will help. The problem with finding your own solution is that you don't always find the right solution. Do you learn calculus by yourself with a textbook? No, you need to have teachers in the following process: 1. Teacher teaches general principles 2. student does homework with mistakes 3. Teacher corrects the mistakes, emphasizing the small details to look out for 4. student practices over and over again and perfects it. You're advocating that people should not have #3, that students should learn by themselves the little details that hard difficult to pick up. If you've ever taken any math class you know that there are always small details that you always forget unless a teacher reminds you again and again and again. You then practice after these reminders. [H] threads are supposed to be sort of like homework, where you read a general principle (liquipedia). After you lost a game, you put up a replay and ask for what were wrong. The posters are supposed to point out the more detailed problems for the player to pay particular attention to and improve. Once again calculus is not starcraft. Neither is school for that matter. and when you get to college (i am not sure if your already there) you will run into your fair share of terrible professors. In these cases all you have is your book, and your mind. Also- [H] threads are not homework. they are simply lazy noobs, looking for a quick fix to a problem that they do not understand. Now i don't think that all [H] threads are like this, but the majority are. The poster should have followed steps one through three of my guide, and i would fancy a guess that 90% of the problems a new player faces are easily fixable, once they put their mind to it. | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=112029 What he did makes it look like he did 9 depot on paper, but he practically did 8depot because he pulled an scv so early, waited until 9/10, then built the depot. There's NOTHING in the liquipedia page that would have helped him figure this out. It took me a LONG time to notice it. The problem with your approach is that if the player doesn't spot a specific problem, he will never be able to fix it simply because he doesn't realize it. These are the problems you need others' inputs on. | ||
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Misrah
United States1695 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:45 nujgnoy wrote: The thing is that the player WOULD NOT HAVE SEEN THE PROBLEM by himself. I didn't see it until I watched it over 3 times, and I KNOW the BO for strong FD. He did the same BO as on paper, but he did it wrongly. There was NO way he would've figured it out by himself. If he followed your steps, they would NEVER have known the problem. Not even after watching it 50 times. I am going to bed after this, because this is getting exhausting. If you looked over his rep 3times (and i have my doubts) and saw that odd supply depot, and then proceed to notice that his entire BO begins to fall apart because of that supply depot, then certainly- if that player would have given step one of my guide a fair chance, he also would have noticed how off his timing was? | ||
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nujgnoy
United States204 Posts
On February 16 2010 15:50 Misrah wrote: I am going to bed after this, because this is getting exhausting. If you looked over his rep 3times (and i have my doubts) and saw that odd supply depot, and then proceed to notice that his entire BO begins to fall apart because of that supply depot, then certainly- if that player would have given step one of my guide a fair chance, he also would have noticed how off his timing was? No. Not a chance. It took an experienced player a while to notice this problem, then a new player certainly would NOT have noticed it, because it is one of those problems that are deceptive; you THINK you're doing it right, and the liquipedia SEEMS to back up your BO, but you're really doing it wrong. My last post should explain this better with the linked thread with replay. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Xstatic
United States765 Posts
That's what makes you so strong as a self-motivated learner, one able to reach the pinnacle of skill on your own. It reminds me of Flash and his strategical ability to think on their feet, which I'm sure no player can learn from someone else. But the strategy forum is something else; it's a place for weaker and confused players to come and ask questions, discuss what went wrong. They come here to ask for outside input. Regardless of the reason, it's the forum's function to help people understand the game better when they ask for help. "We are really looking to encourage the people who know what they're talking about. We are equally looking to encourage the people who have no idea what they are talking about, but know that they don't know what they're talking about." - from the Strategy Forum Guidelines So yeah. Cut some slack man  | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
maybe u r right, but u dont look like the right person to talk about it, and less make a "guide" about it. a new user just need to read the "forum guideline about strategy section" this post isnt new and isnt good. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
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Raz0r
United States287 Posts
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Invictus
Singapore2697 Posts
Sure of cause you can say that you can see his unit count and tell yourself that you should hve pushed but no game of starcraft is exactly the same. Thats where the strategy forum comes in - people who are more experienced can point out to you what to look out for and how to react to them. This is how everyone can improve- by consulting people with a better understanding of the game and asking for their advice. OP is one reason why i have not posted a (h) thread- i don't wanna waste the time of tl.net telling me to brush up on my bo. So i totally understand where your frustrations come from As for the people who are too lazy to brush up on their bo just get a life and start practicing properly | ||
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Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
I remember that there was also very good guide to learning SC by (i think) Chill and he said that it is important when you watch replay (or pro VOD) to look at some situations and think about every possible choice and their outcomes, with an example being zergling drop (or zergling runby?). It should be somewhere in recommended i think | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
Another thing that pisses me off about most people wanting to improve is that they almost never ask the person who just beat them for advice. You frequently hear "omg I got smurfed so bad, I never had a chance, fuck this, raaaage quit!" That simply isn't an effective attitude when you're trying to learn and everyone who complains about being bashed by better players needs to stop being so damn childish, swallow their pride and realise they can benefit from these experiences. | ||
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Daedes
Bangladesh105 Posts
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
From personal experience, going to the strategy forum and asking other D players for advice that you often already know is a waste of time and isn't going to improve your gameplay at all. You often already know what your misstake was and how to correct it, your disbelief in your own gameplay is making you go to the forums and get your already established conclusions confirmed by other D level players. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
Seeing how I was low D playing against a C+, I must have lost like 120 games in total. This player helped me get a stronger early game and set up for mid game, always giving me all sorts of advices as we would play. Unfortunately, I still have a lot of questions that I would love to debate. I know what my mistakes are each game, but sometimes what I can do better is not always obvious. For example: contains strategy spoiler of TSL + Show Spoiler [NonY vs iDra TSL] + I see a terran going 14 cc, bunker cross positions. I may have reacted by cutting probes and adding extra gateways. It may not have worked. NonY proxied these gateways, and the timing looked so perfect. He used the three gateways he proxied, and the dragoons were charging the bunker for a few seconds before the tank arrived. If I had made those gateways in my main, the tank would have been there before the dragoons. People have different solutions to different problems. Sometimes it is worth while to hear from their experience instead of spending several hours to develop one of your own. It is not the fact it is not obvious. It is just so far away from my style. I rarely cheese, so I try to find standard builds that fair well against greedy ones, but sometimes there just isn't a strong standard counter. | ||
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