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Starlink vs fiber optics for better latency

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
QuadroX
Profile Joined August 2017
386 Posts
April 15 2024 07:40 GMT
#1
Which internet to choose between those in general to have better ping with Koreans if you live far away?
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25050 Posts
April 15 2024 08:09 GMT
#2
Aside from the efficiency of how stuff is routed and how many layers and relays it goes through I don’t think there’s any getting around the physics of how long signals travel back and forth.

In that you can absolutely take a slower route from wherever you are to Korea to another, but there’s a hard limit of the physical distance that will always lead to pretty chunky latency over large distances.

IIRC Starlink’s main selling point is in a high-speed solution for remote areas or regions with poor internet infrastructure, and from what I’ve heard it does it well. But if full fibre is available where you are it’s going to be the better option, especially for latency.

Somebody more knowledgeable than moi by all means correct me if I’ve got any of that wrong! Which isn’t all that unlikely
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
April 15 2024 08:49 GMT
#3
I investigated myself a while ago, since ping in Australia is high.

Starlink does not have the consistent ping that fibre does, you will get lag spikes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
tankgirl
Profile Blog Joined May 2016
Canada403 Posts
April 15 2024 09:48 GMT
#4
1. fibre > starlink

2 .play over ethernet not wifi

3. portforward UDP 6112 and check the setting in starcraft ingame options->network->prefer port 6112
(Wiki)Port Forwarding

4. try using a vpn like Lagofast or wtfast (each has free trial) and connect to its South Korea server.
https://www.lagofast.com/
https://www.wtfast.com/
https://www.vyprvpn.com/

https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/627255-progamer-settings
TL+ Member
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
April 15 2024 21:04 GMT
#5
Depends whats your normal ping to korea? If its in the range of 200-300ms then starlink would be better.

Starlink tests seems to range between 20-100ms which for an RTS game would be ok.
-.-
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-15 21:14:36
April 15 2024 21:11 GMT
#6
On April 15 2024 18:48 tankgirl wrote:
1. fibre > starlink

2 .play over ethernet not wifi

3. portforward UDP 6112 and check the setting in starcraft ingame options->network->prefer port 6112
(Wiki)Port Forwarding

4. try using a vpn like Lagofast or wtfast (each has free trial) and connect to its South Korea server.
https://www.lagofast.com/
https://www.wtfast.com/
https://www.vyprvpn.com/



You dont need portforwarding anymore.

Fibre isnt necessarily better if you live far away. Starlink routing is very straight forward while fibre is a spiders web.

I myself from Sweden with Fibre got 300-350ms to Seoul.
-.-
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3696 Posts
April 16 2024 00:00 GMT
#7
If you have the option of both, the better choice is fiber, no question. The latency of a single packet isn't really the problem here, it's packet loss that will screw you over. Starlink theoretically can improve upon latency (although last I heard, the things that would allow for these theoretical improvements are not even in use) but it will be worse for packet loss.

Blizzard's netcode is not particularly resilient to packet loss, as it only resends data once it receives packets from another player and can see that that data has not been received. This is something we've changed/improved in ShieldBattery, but you won't get those benefits playing over bnet. In any case, you always want to reduce packet loss as much as possible for the best experience (which is why other people have also suggested not playing over WiFi, for example).
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
jinjin5000
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1419 Posts
April 16 2024 01:46 GMT
#8
On April 16 2024 09:00 tec27 wrote:
If you have the option of both, the better choice is fiber, no question. The latency of a single packet isn't really the problem here, it's packet loss that will screw you over. Starlink theoretically can improve upon latency (although last I heard, the things that would allow for these theoretical improvements are not even in use) but it will be worse for packet loss.

Blizzard's netcode is not particularly resilient to packet loss, as it only resends data once it receives packets from another player and can see that that data has not been received. This is something we've changed/improved in ShieldBattery, but you won't get those benefits playing over bnet. In any case, you always want to reduce packet loss as much as possible for the best experience (which is why other people have also suggested not playing over WiFi, for example).


I'm curious why battle.net is so consistently bad....
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2922 Posts
April 16 2024 01:48 GMT
#9
On April 16 2024 09:00 tec27 wrote:
If you have the option of both, the better choice is fiber, no question. The latency of a single packet isn't really the problem here, it's packet loss that will screw you over. Starlink theoretically can improve upon latency (although last I heard, the things that would allow for these theoretical improvements are not even in use) but it will be worse for packet loss.

Blizzard's netcode is not particularly resilient to packet loss, as it only resends data once it receives packets from another player and can see that that data has not been received. This is something we've changed/improved in ShieldBattery, but you won't get those benefits playing over bnet. In any case, you always want to reduce packet loss as much as possible for the best experience (which is why other people have also suggested not playing over WiFi, for example).


Is port forwarding still beneficial? I remember reading somewhere that whatever improvements were put in place weren't even working properly and it is still recommended to forward ports. I've never had any issues but forwarded ports regardless just in case.

Also, when I host replays it consistently takes at least one of my friends exceptionally long to join my lobby. Could this be related with him not having his ports forwarded properly?
It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
castleeMg
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
Canada760 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-16 02:09:04
April 16 2024 01:57 GMT
#10
Using an ethernet over wifi is definitely one way to improve packet loss but ”faster internet” won’t necessarily make your connection faster or less laggy to Koreans. You could theoretically have 5mbs up/down and if you were only playing SC and listening to some music through a streaming app, you would have no better speed or less lag than a 1000mbs up/down connection (assuming no packet loss). This is because you only need a little bit of data to connect with someone and play a game of starcraft. More mbs won’t improve the speed, since you already have more than enough even with 5mbs of internet to play a game of sc with others. Internet speed is limited by distance and proximity to the host, server or peer. The further you are from your host, server or peer the more lag you’ll have. Correct me if I’m wrong anyone but that’s how I’ve understood it
AKA: castle[eMg]@USEast/ iCCup
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland555 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-16 05:48:26
April 16 2024 05:47 GMT
#11
fiber connects you with South Korea through these lines (and has to go through some sort of procedure on every dot?):
[image loading]

Starlink is supposed to connect you with South Korea via straight line, connecting from satelite to satelite, but i don't think they have this technology yet, so the signal ends up going from your home --> satelite --> ground station --> the same route from picture above

Unverified info.
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3696 Posts
April 16 2024 06:01 GMT
#12
On April 16 2024 10:48 Smorrie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2024 09:00 tec27 wrote:
If you have the option of both, the better choice is fiber, no question. The latency of a single packet isn't really the problem here, it's packet loss that will screw you over. Starlink theoretically can improve upon latency (although last I heard, the things that would allow for these theoretical improvements are not even in use) but it will be worse for packet loss.

Blizzard's netcode is not particularly resilient to packet loss, as it only resends data once it receives packets from another player and can see that that data has not been received. This is something we've changed/improved in ShieldBattery, but you won't get those benefits playing over bnet. In any case, you always want to reduce packet loss as much as possible for the best experience (which is why other people have also suggested not playing over WiFi, for example).


Is port forwarding still beneficial? I remember reading somewhere that whatever improvements were put in place weren't even working properly and it is still recommended to forward ports. I've never had any issues but forwarded ports regardless just in case.

Also, when I host replays it consistently takes at least one of my friends exceptionally long to join my lobby. Could this be related with him not having his ports forwarded properly?

The answer is really "it depends". Modern bnet uses a combination of STUN (to identify what your various IP addresses might be and possible ports, as well as what type of NAT you might be behind) and TURN (to relay packets between users who can't connect otherwise). STUN will often allow holepunching to work for a lot of home routers, but with NATs that are more strict it will fail (especially if the 2 players that are trying to connect both have more strict NATs). In that case TURN should still allow them to connect, but I have no idea where Blizzard hosts their servers for this, how reliable they are, how well the location choice works, etc. So, to be safe from that ever occurring, forwarding ports (or enabling UPNP on your router to make this happen automatically) is still a reasonable thing to do. Unfortunately, people that most need to forward ports are also generally the least able to do it (either because they lack the knowledge or they are on some network with infrastructure they do not control).

Generally the game will send packets to both the player's IP and the TURN server until it verifies it can reach the player directly, so I doubt it should really add super noticeable time to joining a lobby. More likely it's the thing Blizzard changed in a recent patch randomly to scan people's maps/replays for duplicates when joining lobbies, and that person has a large map+replay collection that takes a while to scan.
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
tankgirl
Profile Blog Joined May 2016
Canada403 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-16 06:57:44
April 16 2024 06:14 GMT
#13
On April 16 2024 06:11 MeSaber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2024 18:48 tankgirl wrote:
1. fibre > starlink

2 .play over ethernet not wifi

3. portforward UDP 6112 and check the setting in starcraft ingame options->network->prefer port 6112
(Wiki)Port Forwarding

4. try using a vpn like Lagofast or wtfast (each has free trial) and connect to its South Korea server.
https://www.lagofast.com/
https://www.wtfast.com/
https://www.vyprvpn.com/



You dont need portforwarding anymore.

Fibre isnt necessarily better if you live far away. Starlink routing is very straight forward while fibre is a spiders web.

I myself from Sweden with Fibre got 300-350ms to Seoul.


ok maybe it not work for you sorry :/

my games against koreans went from TR14 low~TR20high to consistent TR16low w/ occasional TR20low

(edit- canada)
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/627255-progamer-settings
TL+ Member
sophisticated
Profile Joined October 2021
58 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-16 10:45:44
April 16 2024 10:15 GMT
#14
On April 16 2024 14:47 Bonyth wrote:
fiber connects you with South Korea through these lines

Starlink is supposed to connect you with South Korea via straight line, connecting from satelite to satelite


Just to make it clear: the signal doesn't go through earth, lol. It has to go round the planet too. If someone wants to connect from sweden there will be multiple hops among the satellites including "ceremony" for each just like when using cables (may be more hops too, cause at least you can curve the cable around the earth's surface)
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9497 Posts
April 16 2024 10:33 GMT
#15
On April 16 2024 14:47 Bonyth wrote:
fiber connects you with South Korea through these lines (and has to go through some sort of procedure on every dot?):
[image loading]

Starlink is supposed to connect you with South Korea via straight line, connecting from satelite to satelite, but i don't think they have this technology yet, so the signal ends up going from your home --> satelite --> ground station --> the same route from picture above

Unverified info.

That map only shows the undersea internet cables. There are a lot of cables over land as well :d
But yeah, the path that packets take to go from one place to another on internet is pretty complex and not consistent. You can sort of get a sense of the direction the packet takes with tracert command. For example, I just ran the command for a random Korean IP address, and the packet went from Croatia -> Germany -> Kansas (America) -> Seoul. It's wild.

Starlink could theoritcally improve on latency of the packets (making them take shorter paths) with their satellite-to-satellite lasers, but it remains to be seen how this actually works in practice (see this video for an animation of how this could work).

They do have this technology already; IIRC they added satellite-to-satellite lasers to their v1.5 and v2 mini satellites, which might even be the majority of their currently active satellites at this point. However, there's still a lot of variables which might impact the latency. For example, the signal still needs to go from/to the space/ground station which makes the path longer by ~1000km which land-based cables don't have. Although, that might be offset by the speed of light being higher in the vacuum of space than in fiber glass.

In the end, it remains to be seen how it works actually in practice by doing some real-life tests with people who have Starlink. For now I would do what tec said and go with the fiber, since it's much more important to have a stable connection than potentially slightly lower latency on Battle.net.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
RJBTV
Profile Joined December 2022
194 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-16 10:39:31
April 16 2024 10:39 GMT
#16
depends on your location. If you get fibre but are on east coast america it wont make a single difference. because first your connection goes over land lines to west coast which goes through a lot of inbetween stations adding latency. From west coast it goes to Japan, which adds more latency, which then goes to Korea, which adds more latency. If you had an Optic line going from your nearest station directly to korea it would be like 60-100ms because there is nothing inbetween adding latency. For example Western Europe to New york has low latency because the deep sea optic cables go straight from Amsterdam to New York. Or If you from England the same applies. No centers or stations inbetween. If you from Peru and want to connect to Korea you go over land cables to north america california and then to japan and then to korea. No matter what you do it will have high latency because of the slownesss of land cabling and inbetween centers.

In that case starlink would be wayfaster.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25050 Posts
April 16 2024 11:28 GMT
#17
Thanks incidentally for all the responses, quite interesting I learned a bit today!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
April 16 2024 11:55 GMT
#18
On April 16 2024 15:14 tankgirl wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2024 06:11 MeSaber wrote:
On April 15 2024 18:48 tankgirl wrote:
1. fibre > starlink

2 .play over ethernet not wifi

3. portforward UDP 6112 and check the setting in starcraft ingame options->network->prefer port 6112
(Wiki)Port Forwarding

4. try using a vpn like Lagofast or wtfast (each has free trial) and connect to its South Korea server.
https://www.lagofast.com/
https://www.wtfast.com/
https://www.vyprvpn.com/



You dont need portforwarding anymore.

Fibre isnt necessarily better if you live far away. Starlink routing is very straight forward while fibre is a spiders web.

I myself from Sweden with Fibre got 300-350ms to Seoul.


ok maybe it not work for you sorry :/

my games against koreans went from TR14 low~TR20high to consistent TR16low w/ occasional TR20low

(edit- canada)


Dynamic Turn Rate is very sensitive from what i can tell so you should ping a Korean server instead of trusting these numbers.
-.-
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands818 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-16 12:50:51
April 16 2024 12:50 GMT
#19
On April 16 2024 20:55 MeSaber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2024 15:14 tankgirl wrote:
On April 16 2024 06:11 MeSaber wrote:
On April 15 2024 18:48 tankgirl wrote:
1. fibre > starlink

2 .play over ethernet not wifi

3. portforward UDP 6112 and check the setting in starcraft ingame options->network->prefer port 6112
(Wiki)Port Forwarding

4. try using a vpn like Lagofast or wtfast (each has free trial) and connect to its South Korea server.
https://www.lagofast.com/
https://www.wtfast.com/
https://www.vyprvpn.com/



You dont need portforwarding anymore.

Fibre isnt necessarily better if you live far away. Starlink routing is very straight forward while fibre is a spiders web.

I myself from Sweden with Fibre got 300-350ms to Seoul.


ok maybe it not work for you sorry :/

my games against koreans went from TR14 low~TR20high to consistent TR16low w/ occasional TR20low

(edit- canada)


Dynamic Turn Rate is very sensitive from what i can tell so you should ping a Korean server instead of trusting these numbers.

Dynamic turnrate is often one off where it has to be. Its incorrectly calibrated.
JDON MY SOUL!
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2922 Posts
April 16 2024 22:11 GMT
#20
On April 16 2024 15:01 tec27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2024 10:48 Smorrie wrote:
On April 16 2024 09:00 tec27 wrote:
If you have the option of both, the better choice is fiber, no question. The latency of a single packet isn't really the problem here, it's packet loss that will screw you over. Starlink theoretically can improve upon latency (although last I heard, the things that would allow for these theoretical improvements are not even in use) but it will be worse for packet loss.

Blizzard's netcode is not particularly resilient to packet loss, as it only resends data once it receives packets from another player and can see that that data has not been received. This is something we've changed/improved in ShieldBattery, but you won't get those benefits playing over bnet. In any case, you always want to reduce packet loss as much as possible for the best experience (which is why other people have also suggested not playing over WiFi, for example).


Is port forwarding still beneficial? I remember reading somewhere that whatever improvements were put in place weren't even working properly and it is still recommended to forward ports. I've never had any issues but forwarded ports regardless just in case.

Also, when I host replays it consistently takes at least one of my friends exceptionally long to join my lobby. Could this be related with him not having his ports forwarded properly?

The answer is really "it depends". Modern bnet uses a combination of STUN (to identify what your various IP addresses might be and possible ports, as well as what type of NAT you might be behind) and TURN (to relay packets between users who can't connect otherwise). STUN will often allow holepunching to work for a lot of home routers, but with NATs that are more strict it will fail (especially if the 2 players that are trying to connect both have more strict NATs). In that case TURN should still allow them to connect, but I have no idea where Blizzard hosts their servers for this, how reliable they are, how well the location choice works, etc. So, to be safe from that ever occurring, forwarding ports (or enabling UPNP on your router to make this happen automatically) is still a reasonable thing to do. Unfortunately, people that most need to forward ports are also generally the least able to do it (either because they lack the knowledge or they are on some network with infrastructure they do not control).

Generally the game will send packets to both the player's IP and the TURN server until it verifies it can reach the player directly, so I doubt it should really add super noticeable time to joining a lobby. More likely it's the thing Blizzard changed in a recent patch randomly to scan people's maps/replays for duplicates when joining lobbies, and that person has a large map+replay collection that takes a while to scan.


Right, that makes sense. Thanks for the insights.

I never heard about the folder scanning before - I'll ask my friend to archive his replay folder and test it out. I'll report back if it actually made a difference.
It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
1 2 3 Next All
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