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Active: 2073 users

Starlink vs fiber optics for better latency - Page 2

Forum Index > BW General
Post a Reply
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rusty23456
Profile Joined September 2009
United States112 Posts
April 16 2024 22:34 GMT
#21
dynamic turn rate sets turn rate incorrectly most of the time.
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
April 17 2024 12:14 GMT
#22
On April 16 2024 21:50 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2024 20:55 MeSaber wrote:
On April 16 2024 15:14 tankgirl wrote:
On April 16 2024 06:11 MeSaber wrote:
On April 15 2024 18:48 tankgirl wrote:
1. fibre > starlink

2 .play over ethernet not wifi

3. portforward UDP 6112 and check the setting in starcraft ingame options->network->prefer port 6112
(Wiki)Port Forwarding

4. try using a vpn like Lagofast or wtfast (each has free trial) and connect to its South Korea server.
https://www.lagofast.com/
https://www.wtfast.com/
https://www.vyprvpn.com/



You dont need portforwarding anymore.

Fibre isnt necessarily better if you live far away. Starlink routing is very straight forward while fibre is a spiders web.

I myself from Sweden with Fibre got 300-350ms to Seoul.


ok maybe it not work for you sorry :/

my games against koreans went from TR14 low~TR20high to consistent TR16low w/ occasional TR20low

(edit- canada)


Dynamic Turn Rate is very sensitive from what i can tell so you should ping a Korean server instead of trusting these numbers.

Dynamic turnrate is often one off where it has to be. Its incorrectly calibrated.


Or it sets TR8 because micro stutter that isnt even noticeable.
-.-
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3481 Posts
April 17 2024 12:42 GMT
#23
On April 17 2024 07:11 Smorrie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2024 15:01 tec27 wrote:
On April 16 2024 10:48 Smorrie wrote:
On April 16 2024 09:00 tec27 wrote:
If you have the option of both, the better choice is fiber, no question. The latency of a single packet isn't really the problem here, it's packet loss that will screw you over. Starlink theoretically can improve upon latency (although last I heard, the things that would allow for these theoretical improvements are not even in use) but it will be worse for packet loss.

Blizzard's netcode is not particularly resilient to packet loss, as it only resends data once it receives packets from another player and can see that that data has not been received. This is something we've changed/improved in ShieldBattery, but you won't get those benefits playing over bnet. In any case, you always want to reduce packet loss as much as possible for the best experience (which is why other people have also suggested not playing over WiFi, for example).


Is port forwarding still beneficial? I remember reading somewhere that whatever improvements were put in place weren't even working properly and it is still recommended to forward ports. I've never had any issues but forwarded ports regardless just in case.

Also, when I host replays it consistently takes at least one of my friends exceptionally long to join my lobby. Could this be related with him not having his ports forwarded properly?

The answer is really "it depends". Modern bnet uses a combination of STUN (to identify what your various IP addresses might be and possible ports, as well as what type of NAT you might be behind) and TURN (to relay packets between users who can't connect otherwise). STUN will often allow holepunching to work for a lot of home routers, but with NATs that are more strict it will fail (especially if the 2 players that are trying to connect both have more strict NATs). In that case TURN should still allow them to connect, but I have no idea where Blizzard hosts their servers for this, how reliable they are, how well the location choice works, etc. So, to be safe from that ever occurring, forwarding ports (or enabling UPNP on your router to make this happen automatically) is still a reasonable thing to do. Unfortunately, people that most need to forward ports are also generally the least able to do it (either because they lack the knowledge or they are on some network with infrastructure they do not control).

Generally the game will send packets to both the player's IP and the TURN server until it verifies it can reach the player directly, so I doubt it should really add super noticeable time to joining a lobby. More likely it's the thing Blizzard changed in a recent patch randomly to scan people's maps/replays for duplicates when joining lobbies, and that person has a large map+replay collection that takes a while to scan.


Right, that makes sense. Thanks for the insights.

I never heard about the folder scanning before - I'll ask my friend to archive his replay folder and test it out. I'll report back if it actually made a difference.


I actually didn't know it was scanning the replay folder too. Let us know your result. If it s better i may archive my replays elsewhere
Horang2 fan
iFU.pauline
Profile Joined September 2009
France1714 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-17 15:21:52
April 17 2024 15:20 GMT
#24
I highly doubt a non wired connection outperform internet fiber in term of latency, then it also depends on the paths and nodes you are traversing to reach your destination but regardless, non wired connection is heavily prone to interference, and you can forget about constant rate in term of bandwidth. Also, satellites are orbiting, therefore paths are constantly changing depending of plenty of constraints such as nodes saturation, network load balance etc... so latency may fluctuate a lot which is the worst imo when you're playing. Starlink was not made for low latency gaming so I would avoid such solution unless you have no choice
No coward soul is mine, No trembler in the world's storm-troubled sphere, I see Heaven's glories shine, And Faith shines equal arming me from Fear
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-17 21:52:13
April 17 2024 21:51 GMT
#25
On April 18 2024 00:20 iFU.pauline wrote:
I highly doubt a non wired connection outperform internet fiber in term of latency, then it also depends on the paths and nodes you are traversing to reach your destination but regardless, non wired connection is heavily prone to interference, and you can forget about constant rate in term of bandwidth. Also, satellites are orbiting, therefore paths are constantly changing depending of plenty of constraints such as nodes saturation, network load balance etc... so latency may fluctuate a lot which is the worst imo when you're playing. Starlink was not made for low latency gaming so I would avoid such solution unless you have no choice

in the present day there's no options to really improve inter-continental connectivity.

in regards to moving replays, it works. I have 25GB+ of replays and I store them elsewhere otherwise my starcraft instantly crashes when joining a lobby for which I don't have the map or the replay.
JDON MY SOUL!
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3481 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 14:21:30
April 19 2024 14:21 GMT
#26
On April 18 2024 06:51 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2024 00:20 iFU.pauline wrote:
I highly doubt a non wired connection outperform internet fiber in term of latency, then it also depends on the paths and nodes you are traversing to reach your destination but regardless, non wired connection is heavily prone to interference, and you can forget about constant rate in term of bandwidth. Also, satellites are orbiting, therefore paths are constantly changing depending of plenty of constraints such as nodes saturation, network load balance etc... so latency may fluctuate a lot which is the worst imo when you're playing. Starlink was not made for low latency gaming so I would avoid such solution unless you have no choice

in the present day there's no options to really improve inter-continental connectivity.

in regards to moving replays, it works. I have 25GB+ of replays and I store them elsewhere otherwise my starcraft instantly crashes when joining a lobby for which I don't have the map or the replay.


possibly a stupid question but what exactly do you mean my moving? do you archive them and remove them entirely from SC (and thus you cant open them at all from the game) or do you just take them out of the main /maps folder (and if so, where and how are you able to link them to the game so you can watch them)
Horang2 fan
RJBTV
Profile Joined December 2022
194 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-19 16:28:53
April 19 2024 16:26 GMT
#27
On April 19 2024 23:21 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2024 06:51 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
On April 18 2024 00:20 iFU.pauline wrote:
I highly doubt a non wired connection outperform internet fiber in term of latency, then it also depends on the paths and nodes you are traversing to reach your destination but regardless, non wired connection is heavily prone to interference, and you can forget about constant rate in term of bandwidth. Also, satellites are orbiting, therefore paths are constantly changing depending of plenty of constraints such as nodes saturation, network load balance etc... so latency may fluctuate a lot which is the worst imo when you're playing. Starlink was not made for low latency gaming so I would avoid such solution unless you have no choice

in the present day there's no options to really improve inter-continental connectivity.

in regards to moving replays, it works. I have 25GB+ of replays and I store them elsewhere otherwise my starcraft instantly crashes when joining a lobby for which I don't have the map or the replay.


possibly a stupid question but what exactly do you mean my moving? do you archive them and remove them entirely from SC (and thus you cant open them at all from the game) or do you just take them out of the main /maps folder (and if so, where and how are you able to link them to the game so you can watch them)



Take the replay files out of the starcraft folder and place them in a folder outside of the starcraft directory. So yes, you cant open them from the starcraftclient anymore. You would have to put them back in the starcrafy replays folder.
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3481 Posts
April 19 2024 18:47 GMT
#28
On April 20 2024 01:26 RJBTV wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2024 23:21 WGT-Baal wrote:
On April 18 2024 06:51 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
On April 18 2024 00:20 iFU.pauline wrote:
I highly doubt a non wired connection outperform internet fiber in term of latency, then it also depends on the paths and nodes you are traversing to reach your destination but regardless, non wired connection is heavily prone to interference, and you can forget about constant rate in term of bandwidth. Also, satellites are orbiting, therefore paths are constantly changing depending of plenty of constraints such as nodes saturation, network load balance etc... so latency may fluctuate a lot which is the worst imo when you're playing. Starlink was not made for low latency gaming so I would avoid such solution unless you have no choice

in the present day there's no options to really improve inter-continental connectivity.

in regards to moving replays, it works. I have 25GB+ of replays and I store them elsewhere otherwise my starcraft instantly crashes when joining a lobby for which I don't have the map or the replay.


possibly a stupid question but what exactly do you mean my moving? do you archive them and remove them entirely from SC (and thus you cant open them at all from the game) or do you just take them out of the main /maps folder (and if so, where and how are you able to link them to the game so you can watch them)



Take the replay files out of the starcraft folder and place them in a folder outside of the starcraft directory. So yes, you cant open them from the starcraftclient anymore. You would have to put them back in the starcrafy replays folder.


ok yeah. I guess i need to sort which i need to keep and which I dont. probably 95% of them i dont
Horang2 fan
namkraft
Profile Blog Joined December 2021
554 Posts
April 19 2024 19:26 GMT
#29
Very cool insights. I've played Starcraft for 10+ years from US, Europe, Japan and a bunch of others, and I've ALWAYS experienced lag.

Btw sometimes when I play I see this red text in a game:
Due to your network configuration, your connection to other players must be routed via a proxy server
[image loading]

Why is this happening? Must I find a way to remove this text?

Broodwar Forever
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
April 20 2024 03:40 GMT
#30
On April 20 2024 04:26 namkraft wrote:
Very cool insights. I've played Starcraft for 10+ years from US, Europe, Japan and a bunch of others, and I've ALWAYS experienced lag.

Btw sometimes when I play I see this red text in a game:
Due to your network configuration, your connection to other players must be routed via a proxy server
[image loading]

Why is this happening? Must I find a way to remove this text?



If you feel its working without lag for chosen TR then no.
-.-
rusty23456
Profile Joined September 2009
United States112 Posts
April 20 2024 04:31 GMT
#31
On April 20 2024 04:26 namkraft wrote:
Very cool insights. I've played Starcraft for 10+ years from US, Europe, Japan and a bunch of others, and I've ALWAYS experienced lag.

Btw sometimes when I play I see this red text in a game:
Due to your network configuration, your connection to other players must be routed via a proxy server
[image loading]

Why is this happening? Must I find a way to remove this text?




you are probably connected to the interent with wifi on a router and not opening ports. two options. one is to connect directly to the internet with ethernet cable without wifi router. or you need to go into router settings and open up UDP and TCP ports. you can google this to see exactly how to open ports.
Smorrie
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Netherlands2932 Posts
April 23 2024 14:03 GMT
#32
On April 17 2024 21:42 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 17 2024 07:11 Smorrie wrote:
On April 16 2024 15:01 tec27 wrote:
On April 16 2024 10:48 Smorrie wrote:
On April 16 2024 09:00 tec27 wrote:
If you have the option of both, the better choice is fiber, no question. The latency of a single packet isn't really the problem here, it's packet loss that will screw you over. Starlink theoretically can improve upon latency (although last I heard, the things that would allow for these theoretical improvements are not even in use) but it will be worse for packet loss.

Blizzard's netcode is not particularly resilient to packet loss, as it only resends data once it receives packets from another player and can see that that data has not been received. This is something we've changed/improved in ShieldBattery, but you won't get those benefits playing over bnet. In any case, you always want to reduce packet loss as much as possible for the best experience (which is why other people have also suggested not playing over WiFi, for example).


Is port forwarding still beneficial? I remember reading somewhere that whatever improvements were put in place weren't even working properly and it is still recommended to forward ports. I've never had any issues but forwarded ports regardless just in case.

Also, when I host replays it consistently takes at least one of my friends exceptionally long to join my lobby. Could this be related with him not having his ports forwarded properly?

The answer is really "it depends". Modern bnet uses a combination of STUN (to identify what your various IP addresses might be and possible ports, as well as what type of NAT you might be behind) and TURN (to relay packets between users who can't connect otherwise). STUN will often allow holepunching to work for a lot of home routers, but with NATs that are more strict it will fail (especially if the 2 players that are trying to connect both have more strict NATs). In that case TURN should still allow them to connect, but I have no idea where Blizzard hosts their servers for this, how reliable they are, how well the location choice works, etc. So, to be safe from that ever occurring, forwarding ports (or enabling UPNP on your router to make this happen automatically) is still a reasonable thing to do. Unfortunately, people that most need to forward ports are also generally the least able to do it (either because they lack the knowledge or they are on some network with infrastructure they do not control).

Generally the game will send packets to both the player's IP and the TURN server until it verifies it can reach the player directly, so I doubt it should really add super noticeable time to joining a lobby. More likely it's the thing Blizzard changed in a recent patch randomly to scan people's maps/replays for duplicates when joining lobbies, and that person has a large map+replay collection that takes a while to scan.


Right, that makes sense. Thanks for the insights.

I never heard about the folder scanning before - I'll ask my friend to archive his replay folder and test it out. I'll report back if it actually made a difference.


I actually didn't know it was scanning the replay folder too. Let us know your result. If it s better i may archive my replays elsewhere


It definitely helps! The situation still isn't perfect but it has improved a lot, from having to wait 30-40sec to 10-15sec. If you have a large library I'd definitely recommend trying this yourself.

It has a strong technique, but it lacks oo.
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1083 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-23 16:19:43
April 23 2024 16:14 GMT
#33
On April 15 2024 18:48 tankgirl wrote:
2 .play over ethernet not wifi



let me ping my router


--- 192.168.2.1 ping statistics ---
628 packets transmitted, 628 received, 0% packet loss, time 631884ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.570/1.400/15.957/1.193 ms


I only got one big spike of 15ms and most of the time it's within 3ms, I don't know that 15ms will make a difference

I usually get TR24 low vs. Koreans and I still don't know if these tiny spikes are noticeable
tec27
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States3702 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-24 01:01:25
April 24 2024 00:58 GMT
#34
On April 24 2024 01:14 iopq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 15 2024 18:48 tankgirl wrote:
2 .play over ethernet not wifi



let me ping my router

Show nested quote +

--- 192.168.2.1 ping statistics ---
628 packets transmitted, 628 received, 0% packet loss, time 631884ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.570/1.400/15.957/1.193 ms


I only got one big spike of 15ms and most of the time it's within 3ms, I don't know that 15ms will make a difference

I usually get TR24 low vs. Koreans and I still don't know if these tiny spikes are noticeable

Ping is not really a realistic test of this as BW will be sending packets much more quickly (and also larger packets). Wifi is worse because of potential interference (which can happen from many things in your home like microwaves, vacuum cleaners, etc. as well as other people in your area using wifi). Many of these things are intermittent, not something that you would necessarily see in an isolated test, and may get worse at certain times of day. To make matters worse, when interference causes a packet drop on bnet, it will take at least a roundtrip between you and your opponent before any re-sent packet can be dealt with (this is something ShieldBattery improves upon).

You might think everyone telling you to play on ethernet is stupid and it's all fine, but please, for the sake of everyone, just believe that we are correct and play on ethernet unless you absolutely cannot.

On April 19 2024 23:21 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2024 06:51 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:
On April 18 2024 00:20 iFU.pauline wrote:
I highly doubt a non wired connection outperform internet fiber in term of latency, then it also depends on the paths and nodes you are traversing to reach your destination but regardless, non wired connection is heavily prone to interference, and you can forget about constant rate in term of bandwidth. Also, satellites are orbiting, therefore paths are constantly changing depending of plenty of constraints such as nodes saturation, network load balance etc... so latency may fluctuate a lot which is the worst imo when you're playing. Starlink was not made for low latency gaming so I would avoid such solution unless you have no choice

in the present day there's no options to really improve inter-continental connectivity.

in regards to moving replays, it works. I have 25GB+ of replays and I store them elsewhere otherwise my starcraft instantly crashes when joining a lobby for which I don't have the map or the replay.


possibly a stupid question but what exactly do you mean my moving? do you archive them and remove them entirely from SC (and thus you cant open them at all from the game) or do you just take them out of the main /maps folder (and if so, where and how are you able to link them to the game so you can watch them)

Just to note, ShieldBattery can be set as a program to open replay files in Explorer, and you can also configure it to immediately launch the game with the replay (by default it will show some info about the replay in SB and give you the option of viewing it).
Can you jam with the console cowboys in cyberspace?
Peeano
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Netherlands5561 Posts
April 24 2024 07:44 GMT
#35
On April 24 2024 09:58 tec27 wrote:
Just to note, ShieldBattery can be set as a program to open replay files in Explorer, and you can also configure it to immediately launch the game with the replay (by default it will show some info about the replay in SB and give you the option of viewing it).

Nice!
FBH #1!
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1083 Posts
April 24 2024 11:06 GMT
#36
On April 24 2024 09:58 tec27 wrote:
To make matters worse, when interference causes a packet drop on bnet


Let me stop you right there, dropped packets on WiFi are SO rare that it's a less than once a day occurrence. I will run ping for the whole day and play starcraft and we'll see how often packets are actually dropped in ping. Note that WiFi itself will retransmit a dropped packet before it goes out to the internet - that's the 15ms delayed packet that was retransmitted

it would have to fail to transmit it from my router to do a full round trip to b.net

in practice, I have no noticeable delay on battle.net because I'm using 5g wifi, not 2.4g, so microwaves are not an issue because they are on a different frequency

the speed at which ping sends packets is not an issue because I'm pinging while playing, so you can consider it a sampling of all the packets that's sent, I don't need to DOUBLE the amount sent just to see if the latency is high, in fact you want to increase the total number of packets by a very small amount, otherwise you're just testing whether the router can keep up with that greater amount of packets, not the amount generated by the game

--- 192.168.2.1 ping statistics ---
12057 packets transmitted, 12057 received, 0% packet loss, time 12280590ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.552/0.928/49.109/0.738 ms

so you see, there's no packet loss because the wifi retransmits the packets so battle.net doesn't have to do a round trip
Bonyth
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland600 Posts
April 24 2024 12:33 GMT
#37
On April 24 2024 20:06 iopq wrote:


--- 192.168.2.1 ping statistics ---
12057 packets transmitted, 12057 received, 0% packet loss, time 12280590ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.552/0.928/49.109/0.738 ms

so you see, there's no packet loss because the wifi retransmits the packets so battle.net doesn't have to do a round trip


The spike (at least 1) of 49 ms will cause the turnrate to drop.
Also pinging once per second seems not accurate. Would be better to ping 100 times per second for more accurate results. Or make more shorter tests in order to see how often such a lag spike occurs.

PS. Note that i'm not saying it's Wi-Fi that was responsible for the lag spike.
tankgirl
Profile Blog Joined May 2016
Canada461 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-24 13:54:40
April 24 2024 13:50 GMT
#38
On April 24 2024 20:06 iopq wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2024 09:58 tec27 wrote:
To make matters worse, when interference causes a packet drop on bnet


Let me stop you right there, dropped packets on WiFi are SO rare that it's a less than once a day occurrence. I will run ping for the whole day and play starcraft and we'll see how often packets are actually dropped in ping. Note that WiFi itself will retransmit a dropped packet before it goes out to the internet - that's the 15ms delayed packet that was retransmitted

it would have to fail to transmit it from my router to do a full round trip to b.net

in practice, I have no noticeable delay on battle.net because I'm using 5g wifi, not 2.4g, so microwaves are not an issue because they are on a different frequency

the speed at which ping sends packets is not an issue because I'm pinging while playing, so you can consider it a sampling of all the packets that's sent, I don't need to DOUBLE the amount sent just to see if the latency is high, in fact you want to increase the total number of packets by a very small amount, otherwise you're just testing whether the router can keep up with that greater amount of packets, not the amount generated by the game

--- 192.168.2.1 ping statistics ---
12057 packets transmitted, 12057 received, 0% packet loss, time 12280590ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.552/0.928/49.109/0.738 ms

so you see, there's no packet loss because the wifi retransmits the packets so battle.net doesn't have to do a round trip


tec27 i know u wrote openBW blah blah but i have a certificate in IT technologics from freecourseweb and after spending a few hours with the command prompt ive conclusively demonstrated that Wi-Fi is 100% more superior than CAT-7 ethernet for PC gaming, in all contexts throughout time in perpetuity forever.

trust me ive been to IEM and DreamHack and everyone there definitely always just uses wifi.

but dont worry ill share some of my turing prize moneys with you.
https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/627255-progamer-settings
TL+ Member
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3481 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-24 15:09:01
April 24 2024 15:07 GMT
#39
btw, have you folks noticed bnet being significantly worse since about Sunday/Monday or just me?

random lag spike, error 3: 9, failed to download settings, bugged (more than before) friend list etc...
Horang2 fan
iopq
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1083 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-04-25 07:27:10
April 25 2024 07:25 GMT
#40
On April 24 2024 21:33 Bonyth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 24 2024 20:06 iopq wrote:


--- 192.168.2.1 ping statistics ---
12057 packets transmitted, 12057 received, 0% packet loss, time 12280590ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.552/0.928/49.109/0.738 ms

so you see, there's no packet loss because the wifi retransmits the packets so battle.net doesn't have to do a round trip


The spike (at least 1) of 49 ms will cause the turnrate to drop.
Also pinging once per second seems not accurate. Would be better to ping 100 times per second for more accurate results. Or make more shorter tests in order to see how often such a lag spike occurs.

PS. Note that i'm not saying it's Wi-Fi that was responsible for the lag spike.



again, if I'm pinging 100 times a second I might actually slow down my game since when I'm doing the test I'm actually playing the game

this is actually SAMPLING every once a second

and yes, if over that time I had one spike of 49ms, I didn't notice it. That's the point, I see no difference in real use
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