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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
Sometimes it's obvious when you're out of line / being a creep. Nude pictures and pointed comments that are sexual in nature that can derail a stream and ruin someone's day are obviously not good. People who are doing things like this are deliberately attempting to burn down the internet. Punishing them is fine.
I think there is also a lack of education around what is appropriate / acceptable behavior and more importantly how to interpret reactions or signals. As creatures with drives, we're programmed to react to certain signals in certain ways, and the way these signals get interpreted versus what they really mean is something that the medium of the internet really affects. This goes both ways - for the streamers, they might not realize something is innocuous, and for the viewers, they may not realize that a display of affection is a part of the show for everyone.
If someone wants to do something actually progressive to improve the atmosphere for streamers, efforts should be made to improve awareness of the dynamics at play between streamer/gamer and viewer through educational materials. I think that would be really helpful for a lot of people who aren't malicious and want to be a part of the community. That would eventually also widen a bit what's acceptable from the viewers, since they won't necessarily be lumped into the creeper category by default.
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This makes me very sad. I really like Rapid as well, he seemed like a cool guy. I wonder how many other people are going to get called out by this. Looks like it could do a lot of damage. I'm not sure why people think/thought it was ok to act that way at all.
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Dude just got a fan for life.
Thanks for sharing!
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has anyone ever considered growing up? People are going to not like you or make fun of you for stupid reasons. Deal with it and move on
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also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post.
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On June 24 2020 09:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 24 2020 09:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
This thread (and the LD one) will serve as demonstration of how sincere people are in wanting to clean up the communities they are part of and what lessons people have learned since 2014 and the gamergate threads. You mean the campaign for ethics in videogame journalism right? What is the LD thread incidentally? But yes, agreed wholeheartedly. Not just outright harassment either but just the weird purity tests women have to pass to be accepted in this community and in other gaming spaces, or the weird behaviour they have to put up with frequently. Misogyny was a huge part of gamergate but I'm sure there are people that were following the details more closely than myself here www.liquiddota.com is the other thread I was talking about. I'd say it's probably going to be more toxic than here, but time will tell.
So it's okay for women to sleep with "journalists" to get shitty games good reviews? Cause thats what "gamergate" was
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On June 24 2020 12:46 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 24 2020 09:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 24 2020 09:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
This thread (and the LD one) will serve as demonstration of how sincere people are in wanting to clean up the communities they are part of and what lessons people have learned since 2014 and the gamergate threads. You mean the campaign for ethics in videogame journalism right? What is the LD thread incidentally? But yes, agreed wholeheartedly. Not just outright harassment either but just the weird purity tests women have to pass to be accepted in this community and in other gaming spaces, or the weird behaviour they have to put up with frequently. Misogyny was a huge part of gamergate but I'm sure there are people that were following the details more closely than myself here www.liquiddota.com is the other thread I was talking about. I'd say it's probably going to be more toxic than here, but time will tell. So it's okay for women to sleep with "journalists" to get shitty games good reviews? Cause thats what "gamergate" was
Legitimate and important complaints buried under "if you disagree with these people then you just hate them because they're a misogynist" pseudologic to confuse people who are only looking at headlines.
The actually legitimate reporters took to investigating, discussing and reporting facts without any of that garbage, TotalBiscuit being one at the forefront.
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It is a universal truth that if you're still defending gamergate today, people sigh with relief when you leave rooms.
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Thanks to the OP for making this thread. I spent all day and night on father's day talking to people about abuse and trauma then saw people in the Twitch and StarCraft scenes start talking about so much more. I wanted to start this thread immediately here and on reddit but was afraid of it being shut down and only getting more frustrated and drained. So thank you, too, everyone taking all of this seriously and being respectful.
Although I can't watch Top's stream today (too much going on personally, emotionally the last several days) I really appreciate Top, Pengwin, and TLO talking about their experiences and supporting the women sharing theirs. While women still aren't respected enough for people to listen to them and believe them when they talk about harassment of any kind, men are also not respected enough when they tell their stories and are picked on, bullied, and shut down in other verbal and aggressive ways. The women coming forward about Rapid (at least one of whom was not an adult at the time of the incident) need to be listened to. The men coming forward about their experiences being preyed on by older men in team houses need to be listened to. Not ignored, not dismissed, not have their experiences and trauma made fun of.
If the only reaction you are capable of having when seeing information like this is to name-call and bully, then keep it to yourself instead of displaying how grossly immature you are and distracting from the situation.
Regarding Kaitlyn's situation, there is so much more going on than just her claims that she was hurt by JP. I don't want to dismiss the root of what she is saying, but I'm also conflicted because of how she has treated other people and with my own personal experiences with her and her toxicity on stream and how her behavior has repeatedly echoed that of my aggressively abusive father. + Show Spoiler +She has repeatedly made false claims about another woman's (AnneMunition's) experiences with JP and subsequently harassed her on stream after they asked Kaitlyn to stop lying about someone else's experiences for their own agenda, and she repeatedly tried to drag them back into the conversation and formed more lies about them. I am also extremely uncomfortable with the way that Kaitlyn is using private messages from a deceased person (Incontrol) while also removing her messages to that person with relevant contextual information. Kaitlyn's claims regarding her own personal experiences are not something that should be dismissed and if she would come out with more information I would still support her in that, but I also feel that her actions (harassment by her and members of her community that is both aware of and has actively encouraged) toward other people should be taken seriously.
There's a little more information in Twitter threads by her and JP and other members of older and newer RollPlay shows, as well as the itmeJP subreddit. Not enough, I feel, but there is more to both sides.
I am going to stop watching JP's content, for multiple reasons, but I'm also going to keep an eye on the situation and hope that more information comes out so I and everyone else can finally understand what's going on after years of this particular mess continuing.
The Black Lives Matter movement and protests are still going, and they will still be going on for a long, long time. Movements against online and sexual harassment and sexism in work spaces and online communities have been picking up this week, and there is still so much work to do to rectify and change deeply toxic culture and so many sub-cultures all around the world and online. I'm really proud of how some people have been speaking up and supporting each other and the discussion as a whole, but it's also painful how few people are actively engaged with or talking about the discussion.
I know people are busy and tired, and have been all year, but taking one minute to stop and think about things like this and acknowledge the damage it causes to so many lives is an easy step to take, and I really believe it does make a big difference.
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On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post.
Can't catch you, but banning works better. There's a proverb in China saying "think three times before you take action", seems like no-one ever learnt from the past.
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On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post.
That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case.
In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway.
edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now.
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I feel sorry to all parties involved in situations as these, especially to the victims, but also a little towards the perpetrators.
That said I basically adhere to the policy of innocent until proven guilty or admission of guilt, this is as I recall other situations in which people have been accused of rape/ sexual harassment and have been proven through courts of law as guilty. But I also recall scenarios in which people have been accused of the above crimes and been proven innocent.
In this case, given the consistency of key characteristics given by the accusers and the highly unlikely chance of collaboration in formulating said statements, the validity of their claims is highly creditable. Whilst I do not know the full reality of what transpired the information offered here is extremely damning to the perpetrators and justly so.
I expect full statements to be made by the accused asap and will consider silence on their behalf as an admission of guilt.
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StarCraft is a place to get away from the many ills of the world, yet for many it has been something truly horrible. I am completely heartsick.
Thank you to those who have shared and I hope others continue to show courage in doing so. For those who don't feel able to right now I hope you can still find some solace. I'm so sorry that this happened to you and I'm so sorry that justice is so hard to achieve in our society. I desperately hope things can improve, and if they do it will be in part due to your courage.
On June 24 2020 14:47 Devling wrote:
There comes a time in life where people need to be accountable. On both sides. Situations will be different for each person. The way that we deal with interactions..expressing it physically, vocally, or locking it inside. Bad/rude whatever u want to call it, things happen. Man or woman. You, all of us, are strong. Stand up for yourself and stop it. People do care and will listen. Let people know immediately how you feel. If you feel violated in some way, respect yourself and let it be known right away.
Talking about abuse often makes things worse, or results in no action. TLO says he brought up abuse in the house and people laughed and brushed it off.
Or you can read about someone bringing this up to StarCraft manager and having a horrific response from them here:
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9miv
You can also read about the American rape kit backlog here:
http://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/what-rape-kit-backlog
And you can read about the trauma of rape kits themselves here:
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9mh3
So even going to police is often fruitless. Yes, we should encourage people to come forward if they feel able. But that needs to be leavened with a true understanding of how difficult that can be and how fruitless it can be.
These situations are not unique. It's a well documented fact that victim blaming is hugely common. You may not realise it, but that's what you're doing here. When you hear about people being abused your reaction is in part to find fault with the victim. I'm sure you're not trying to be malicious, but it can still be harmful. For you, and many others, please rethink how you respond to victims. Please listen to victims when they tell you that the response you often get when you talk about abuse is awful. When they say that even acknowledging it happened is hard, when they just want to move on, when they don't know where to turn to. Speaking for myself for a second, it took me years to even admit to myself that I was abused, let alone be able to talk to others. I still cry thinking about it 22 years later. And I could literally not even believe reactions I got from some "good friends" when I talked about abuse to - we're talking refusing to speak to me or literally laughing about it and making jokes while I was in tears. This is not uncommon. Victims are regularly not treated well. And that goes doubly for an insular community where connections matter.
You can help change that though, by offering support rather than criticism. By making this a community where people can talk freely about the wrongs they have suffered. By ensuring everything we say about such things is filled with the appropriate compassion for suffering many people simply cannot understand. Please try to do so in the future.
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On June 24 2020 13:17 Nebuchad wrote:
It is a universal truth that if you're still defending gamergate today, people sigh with relief when you leave rooms.
This is exactly what heated the debate, people with no understanding of either side just showing up and ignoring all prior discourse to make ad hominem attacks for some attention. You didn't address a single thing that anybody else said.
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People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all.
Not just women (: - and there isn't really any particular onus on the accused to present evidence. It's certainly relevant from either party but it's easier to prove a real thing than it is to disprove something that may not have happened. Many cases are just words either way but enough words can indicate a trend and maybe lead towards somebody else bringing forth evidence.
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I don't think that's an ad hominem as much as commentary on lived experience, matches mine anyway. The people leaving wouldn't really hear the sighing. Occasionally they catch the groaning upon their arrival/returns from places like the bathroom though.
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On June 24 2020 15:27 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't think that's an ad hominem as much as commentary on lived experience, matches mine anyway. The people leaving wouldn't really hear the sighing, now would they?
It's a completely baseless personal attack on an entire group of people. I suggest you go watch the Totalbiscuit coverage of the subject.
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On June 24 2020 14:47 Devling wrote:
There comes a time in life where people need to be accountable. On both sides. Situations will be different for each person. The way that we deal with interactions..expressing it physically, vocally, or locking it inside. Bad/rude whatever u want to call it, things happen. Man or woman. You, all of us, are strong. Stand up for yourself and stop it. People do care and will listen. Let people know immediately how you feel. If you feel violated in some way, respect yourself and let it be known right away.
stop being so soft, all of you.
I'm not sure I agree, especially with your last sentence. Victims are often times plagued with really tough self-esteem issues, and making them feel guilty about not wanting to speak out right away is only going to make them feel worse about themselves. It's not so simple as saying "c'mon, just do it, everything will be better" even if it might seem that easy from the outside.
That said, thanks to everyone who did share. I'm glad that Kaitlyn is ready to talk too - I hope she is able to.
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On June 24 2020 15:22 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:17 Nebuchad wrote:
It is a universal truth that if you're still defending gamergate today, people sigh with relief when you leave rooms. This is exactly what heated the debate, people with no understanding of either side just showing up and ignoring all prior discourse to make ad hominem attacks for some attention. You didn't address a single thing that anybody else said.
An ad hominem would require me making an argument. I haven't done that, nor do I plan to.
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EPT
