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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
United Kingdom20286 Posts
On June 24 2020 15:32 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 14:47 Devling wrote:
There comes a time in life where people need to be accountable. On both sides. Situations will be different for each person. The way that we deal with interactions..expressing it physically, vocally, or locking it inside. Bad/rude whatever u want to call it, things happen. Man or woman. You, all of us, are strong. Stand up for yourself and stop it. People do care and will listen. Let people know immediately how you feel. If you feel violated in some way, respect yourself and let it be known right away.
stop being so soft, all of you. I'm not sure I agree, especially with your last sentence. Victims are often times plagued with really tough self-esteem issues, and making them feel guilty about not wanting to speak out right away is only going to make them feel worse about themselves. It's not so simple as saying "c'mon, just do it, everything will be better" even if it might seem that easy from the outside. That said, thanks to everyone who did share. I'm glad that Kaitlyn is ready to talk too - I hope she is able to.
Yeah. Lots of screwed up stuff apparantly swept under the rug. I'm kinda surprised that more people didn't come forward publically when the shit train kept going with higher ups such as team managers, leaders, teamhouse owners backing sexual assaulters.
There's no way that TL and much of the community would turn their backs on it, there would be consequences for those people.
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This past week has been insane in terms of people speaking out about their experiences with abuse and trauma. I had no idea this was going on in the SC community, and it bums me out to know it was. TBH, JP was always my least favorite part of his Rollplay series, I usually watched only for DjWheat and InControl. JP often came off as petulant and whiny, but I didn't think he was abusive towards any of the cast. Garbage, that.
There's also a massive speaking out moment going on in the Pro Wrestling world, so hopefully people can continue to speak out about these things and the abusers can be held to task.
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United Kingdom20286 Posts
On June 24 2020 15:36 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 15:22 Cyro wrote:On June 24 2020 13:17 Nebuchad wrote:
It is a universal truth that if you're still defending gamergate today, people sigh with relief when you leave rooms. This is exactly what heated the debate, people with no understanding of either side just showing up and ignoring all prior discourse to make ad hominem attacks for some attention. You didn't address a single thing that anybody else said. An ad hominem would require me making an argument. I haven't done that, nor do I plan to.
Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
Textbook.
"This guy wrote a reasonable, logical post about a subject that doesn't jive with how i feel about it, but i can't or won't bother writing a response to anything that they said. Better call them a dickwad and move on."
It adds literally nothing to the conversation and inflames things for no reason. It's not an appropriate post.
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United Kingdom20286 Posts
This past week has been insane in terms of people speaking out about their experiences with abuse and trauma. I had no idea this was going on in the SC community, and it bums me out to know it was.
Yeah, i've heard a bit before but nothing about JP for example.
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United States33390 Posts
On June 24 2020 15:41 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 15:36 Nebuchad wrote:On June 24 2020 15:22 Cyro wrote:On June 24 2020 13:17 Nebuchad wrote:
It is a universal truth that if you're still defending gamergate today, people sigh with relief when you leave rooms. This is exactly what heated the debate, people with no understanding of either side just showing up and ignoring all prior discourse to make ad hominem attacks for some attention. You didn't address a single thing that anybody else said. An ad hominem would require me making an argument. I haven't done that, nor do I plan to. Show nested quote +Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. Textbook. "This guy wrote a reasonable, logical post about a subject that doesn't jive with how i feel about it, but i can't or won't bother writing a response to anything that they said. Better call them a dickwad and move on." It adds literally nothing to the conversation and inflames things for no reason. It's not an appropriate post.
you guys should go to DM's because no one else here is interested in who "wins" this argument 
Also it's derailing the thread, so you guys have been warned.
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Let s hope, there s something good coming out of all this revelations here. I realy hope, that there are going to be legal actions following this and further investigations from Blizz/ Tournament organisers as well.
To everyone, who says "they are just making stuff up to ruin someones live" most of the stories don t even have the Name of the accused Man in there, so I choose to belive them.
I realy want to see the SC2 comunity and scene as an developed sport.
I want SC2 to be seen just like any other traditional sport.
I belive a big part in that is gender equality.
We need more women in SC2, we need more tournaments ONLY for women, to raise their Level of play.
Me and my Girlfriend could only name 2 traditional sports, that don t have seperate competition for men and women:
Motorsports (F1 and so on)
Horse riding
In Motorsports a lot of the dynamics are quite similar to esports, its dominated by men and the governing body is not an organisation but a company. They don t have National Teams but Coporate Teams on World Championship Level. And they tend to have the same problems with sexual harrassment. I never get why there is no F1 for women and I also never get why there is no high level SC2 event for women.
I m not talking 150k$ Warchest Money tournament, but why don t fund a 5k womens only tournament, blizz?
In my eyes, that would help a lot in pushing SC2 as a more serious sport and help for acceptance of esport in general.
Also I totally agree, it s a shame Avilo is allowed to play in any tournament
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On June 24 2020 07:11 misterxy1994 wrote:
Is there any proof of that?
that's a...
yeah.. that is a good question actually
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On June 24 2020 16:09 dbRic1203 wrote:
I belive a big part in that is gender equality.
We need more women in SC2, we need more tournaments ONLY for women, to raise their Level of play.
Me and my Girlfriend could only name 2 traditional sports, that don t have seperate competition for men and women:
Motorsports (F1 and so on)
Horse riding
In Motorsports a lot of the dynamics are quite similar to esports, its dominated by men and the governing body is not an organisation but a company. They don t have National Teams but Coporate Teams on World Championship Level. And they tend to have the same problems with sexual harrassment. I never get why there is no F1 for women and I also never get why there is no high level SC2 event for women.
I m not talking 150k$ Warchest Money tournament, but why don t fund a 5k womens only tournament, blizz?
In my eyes, that would help a lot in pushing SC2 as a more serious sport and help for acceptance of esport in general.
Maybe thats just me but I feel womens ONLY tournaments go in the opposite direction of gender equality.
What seperates men and women (and all the other 100 genders) in esport of all things?
Or am I missing something here?
I know in team esport (CS:GO, LoL, ..) women have a hard time because men treat them unfairly in voice chat for example and I hate that!
These days I'm just happy when my teammates in CSGO are halfway decent human beeings, doesn't matter if they are male, female or kids. Esports is a ugly world 
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On June 24 2020 14:47 Devling wrote:
There comes a time in life where people need to be accountable. On both sides. Situations will be different for each person. The way that we deal with interactions..expressing it physically, vocally, or locking it inside. Bad/rude whatever u want to call it, things happen. Man or woman. You, all of us, are strong. Stand up for yourself and stop it. People do care and will listen. Let people know immediately how you feel. If you feel violated in some way, respect yourself and let it be known right away.
stop being so soft, all of you.
You don't get it, I think.
Part of sexual harassment is/has always been the power of the perpetrator over the victim. There is always an implied power that allows people to get away with this stuff.
You don't hear about low level male employees sexually harassing the female CEO of their companies, do you? At least not very often.
When someone has power over you, its much harder to speak out against them, and calling it 'soft' is missing the point by a mile.
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On June 24 2020 16:09 dbRic1203 wrote:
Let s hope, there s something good coming out of all this revelations here. I realy hope, that there are going to be legal actions following this and further investigations from Blizz/ Tournament organisers as well.
To everyone, who says "they are just making stuff up to ruin someones live" most of the stories don t even have the Name of the accused Man in there, so I choose to belive them.
I realy want to see the SC2 comunity and scene as an developed sport.
I want SC2 to be seen just like any other traditional sport.
I belive a big part in that is gender equality.
We need more women in SC2, we need more tournaments ONLY for women, to raise their Level of play.
Me and my Girlfriend could only name 2 traditional sports, that don t have seperate competition for men and women:
Motorsports (F1 and so on)
Horse riding
In Motorsports a lot of the dynamics are quite similar to esports, its dominated by men and the governing body is not an organisation but a company. They don t have National Teams but Coporate Teams on World Championship Level. And they tend to have the same problems with sexual harrassment. I never get why there is no F1 for women and I also never get why there is no high level SC2 event for women.
I m not talking 150k$ Warchest Money tournament, but why don t fund a 5k womens only tournament, blizz?
In my eyes, that would help a lot in pushing SC2 as a more serious sport and help for acceptance of esport in general.
Also I totally agree, it s a shame Avilo is allowed to play in any tournament
To be blunt, legal action is very, very difficult in these situations because–unlike online discussions–legal arguments are held to standards of evidence. Legal accusations must be substantiated, and many of these cases are either years old, lacking material evidence, or both. Even in-person cases of sexual harassment often boil down to he-said-she-said type situations. Online ones are even less likely to meet courtroom standards.
Which is to say, legal action is unlikely to lead anywhere.
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It's really good to see this things starting to come out in the SC community. Let's hope this becomes a watershed moment. Very proud of the people coming forward, and very happy to see also guys like TLO and Pengwin coming forward. Hoping more will join.
There is more to say but actually the two below posters wrote long and very thoughtful posts that say pretty much everything worth saying. Kudos. I recommend that everyone read these posts:
On June 24 2020 15:15 FuzzyJAM wrote:+ Show Spoiler +StarCraft is a place to get away from the many ills of the world, yet for many it has been something truly horrible. I am completely heartsick. Thank you to those who have shared and I hope others continue to show courage in doing so. For those who don't feel able to right now I hope you can still find some solace. I'm so sorry that this happened to you and I'm so sorry that justice is so hard to achieve in our society. I desperately hope things can improve, and if they do it will be in part due to your courage. On June 24 2020 14:47 Devling wrote:
There comes a time in life where people need to be accountable. On both sides. Situations will be different for each person. The way that we deal with interactions..expressing it physically, vocally, or locking it inside. Bad/rude whatever u want to call it, things happen. Man or woman. You, all of us, are strong. Stand up for yourself and stop it. People do care and will listen. Let people know immediately how you feel. If you feel violated in some way, respect yourself and let it be known right away. Talking about abuse often makes things worse, or results in no action. TLO says he brought up abuse in the house and people laughed and brushed it off. Or you can read about someone bringing this up to StarCraft manager and having a horrific response from them here: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9mivYou can also read about the American rape kit backlog here: http://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/what-rape-kit-backlogAnd you can read about the trauma of rape kits themselves here: https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9mh3So even going to police is often fruitless. Yes, we should encourage people to come forward if they feel able. But that needs to be leavened with a true understanding of how difficult that can be and how fruitless it can be. These situations are not unique. It's a well documented fact that victim blaming is hugely common. You may not realise it, but that's what you're doing here. When you hear about people being abused your reaction is in part to find fault with the victim. I'm sure you're not trying to be malicious, but it can still be harmful. For you, and many others, please rethink how you respond to victims. Please listen to victims when they tell you that the response you often get when you talk about abuse is awful. When they say that even acknowledging it happened is hard, when they just want to move on, when they don't know where to turn to. Speaking for myself for a second, it took me years to even admit to myself that I was abused, let alone be able to talk to others. I still cry thinking about it 22 years later. And I could literally not even believe reactions I got from some "good friends" when I talked about abuse to - we're talking refusing to speak to me or literally laughing about it and making jokes while I was in tears. This is not uncommon. Victims are regularly not treated well. And that goes doubly for an insular community where connections matter. You can help change that though, by offering support rather than criticism. By making this a community where people can talk freely about the wrongs they have suffered. By ensuring everything we say about such things is filled with the appropriate compassion for suffering many people simply cannot understand. Please try to do so in the future.
On June 24 2020 13:19 blunderfulguy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Thanks to the OP for making this thread. I spent all day and night on father's day talking to people about abuse and trauma then saw people in the Twitch and StarCraft scenes start talking about so much more. I wanted to start this thread immediately here and on reddit but was afraid of it being shut down and only getting more frustrated and drained. So thank you, too, everyone taking all of this seriously and being respectful. Although I can't watch Top's stream today (too much going on personally, emotionally the last several days) I really appreciate Top, Pengwin, and TLO talking about their experiences and supporting the women sharing theirs. While women still aren't respected enough for people to listen to them and believe them when they talk about harassment of any kind, men are also not respected enough when they tell their stories and are picked on, bullied, and shut down in other verbal and aggressive ways. The women coming forward about Rapid (at least one of whom was not an adult at the time of the incident) need to be listened to. The men coming forward about their experiences being preyed on by older men in team houses need to be listened to. Not ignored, not dismissed, not have their experiences and trauma made fun of. If the only reaction you are capable of having when seeing information like this is to name-call and bully, then keep it to yourself instead of displaying how grossly immature you are and distracting from the situation. Regarding Kaitlyn's situation, there is so much more going on than just her claims that she was hurt by JP. I don't want to dismiss the root of what she is saying, but I'm also conflicted because of how she has treated other people and with my own personal experiences with her and her toxicity on stream and how her behavior has repeatedly echoed that of my aggressively abusive father. + Show Spoiler +She has repeatedly made false claims about another woman's (AnneMunition's) experiences with JP and subsequently harassed her on stream after they asked Kaitlyn to stop lying about someone else's experiences for their own agenda, and she repeatedly tried to drag them back into the conversation and formed more lies about them. I am also extremely uncomfortable with the way that Kaitlyn is using private messages from a deceased person (Incontrol) while also removing her messages to that person with relevant contextual information. Kaitlyn's claims regarding her own personal experiences are not something that should be dismissed and if she would come out with more information I would still support her in that, but I also feel that her actions (harassment by her and members of her community that is both aware of and has actively encouraged) toward other people should be taken seriously. There's a little more information in Twitter threads by her and JP and other members of older and newer RollPlay shows, as well as the itmeJP subreddit. Not enough, I feel, but there is more to both sides. I am going to stop watching JP's content, for multiple reasons, but I'm also going to keep an eye on the situation and hope that more information comes out so I and everyone else can finally understand what's going on after years of this particular mess continuing. The Black Lives Matter movement and protests are still going, and they will still be going on for a long, long time. Movements against online and sexual harassment and sexism in work spaces and online communities have been picking up this week, and there is still so much work to do to rectify and change deeply toxic culture and so many sub-cultures all around the world and online. I'm really proud of how some people have been speaking up and supporting each other and the discussion as a whole, but it's also painful how few people are actively engaged with or talking about the discussion. I know people are busy and tired, and have been all year, but taking one minute to stop and think about things like this and acknowledge the damage it causes to so many lives is an easy step to take, and I really believe it does make a big difference.
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wow was not expecting these allegations to come out about rapid. Years ago, I had this impression that he was a bit too unprofessional as a caster and sometimes even a bit rude. I did feel some anti-feminist vibes from him a long time ago when he was casting GSL and talking about "tumblr logic" (which back then I took to be a jab at "sjws"). I also vaguely. and perhaps falsely, recall an instance where he was casting with Tasteless and it seemed that he offended him by making kind of a snide remark about tasteless' level of education. Despite this, I felt like he improved his casting over the years and became a lot more professional so it did come to me as surprise. .
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On June 24 2020 16:34 pvsnp wrote:
To be blunt, legal action is very, very difficult in these situations because–unlike online discussions–legal arguments are held to standards of evidence. Legal accusations must be substantiated, and many of these cases are either years old, lacking material evidence, or both. Even in-person cases of sexual harassment often boil down to he-said-she-said type situations. Online ones are even less likely to meet courtroom standards.
Which is to say, legal action is unlikely to lead anywhere.
Legal action can also be tough to go through for the abused person. Often humiliating and forcing them to constantly bring up and live through old trauma.
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On June 24 2020 16:47 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 16:34 pvsnp wrote:
To be blunt, legal action is very, very difficult in these situations because–unlike online discussions–legal arguments are held to standards of evidence. Legal accusations must be substantiated, and many of these cases are either years old, lacking material evidence, or both. Even in-person cases of sexual harassment often boil down to he-said-she-said type situations. Online ones are even less likely to meet courtroom standards.
Which is to say, legal action is unlikely to lead anywhere. Legal action can also be tough to go through for the abused person. Often humiliating and forcing them to constantly bring up and live through old trauma.
It's an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of applying a dispassionate, technical framework to what is often an emotionally-charged experience.
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This is why i miss forums like TL, ppl used to get to know each other. Everyone was passionate about the same thing, it was simple. You could talk about the same topic for months and really get to know everyone in the thread. People were up front and honest. Imo some of these situations could be avoided if the community was more centralized/close knit.
what happened man... (rhetorical, reddit happened xd)
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On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189
How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft.
I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond.
A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.
B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.
C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.
In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people
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On June 24 2020 16:30 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 16:09 dbRic1203 wrote:
I belive a big part in that is gender equality.
We need more women in SC2, we need more tournaments ONLY for women, to raise their Level of play.
Me and my Girlfriend could only name 2 traditional sports, that don t have seperate competition for men and women:
Motorsports (F1 and so on)
Horse riding
In Motorsports a lot of the dynamics are quite similar to esports, its dominated by men and the governing body is not an organisation but a company. They don t have National Teams but Coporate Teams on World Championship Level. And they tend to have the same problems with sexual harrassment. I never get why there is no F1 for women and I also never get why there is no high level SC2 event for women.
I m not talking 150k$ Warchest Money tournament, but why don t fund a 5k womens only tournament, blizz?
In my eyes, that would help a lot in pushing SC2 as a more serious sport and help for acceptance of esport in general.
Maybe thats just me but I feel womens ONLY tournaments go in the opposite direction of gender equality. What seperates men and women (and all the other 100 genders) in esport of all things? Or am I missing something here? I know in team esport (CS:GO, LoL, ..) women have a hard time because men treat them unfairly in voice chat for example and I hate that! These days I'm just happy when my teammates in CSGO are halfway decent human beeings, doesn't matter if they are male, female or kids. Esports is a ugly world
Well esports is like 99% male dominated. If we d like to change that, we d need to support other genders, so an female only tournament would be a step in the right direction.
Notable non- male SC2 Players/casters that come to my mind are only Scarlett, Nina and Zombygrub. That is pretty far away from gender equality to me.
"Esports is a ugly world" is exactly what I don t want to see, especially with the esports, I follow, SC2. For that we need to change as a comunity and having more women in the scene would defnatly help with that I think.
If you want it s the same as with region lock argument. It s not necessarily the most fair thing to males/kr but still hurts them way less than it s going to help the non-males/ non-Koreans.
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Honestly, most of these stories are nothingburgers compared to what some of us normal people experience every day. Don't get triggered just because the truth hurts your feelings. Be brave enough to call out hysteria and chaos and replace it with sovereignty and order.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 24 2020 16:34 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 16:09 dbRic1203 wrote:
Let s hope, there s something good coming out of all this revelations here. I realy hope, that there are going to be legal actions following this and further investigations from Blizz/ Tournament organisers as well.
To everyone, who says "they are just making stuff up to ruin someones live" most of the stories don t even have the Name of the accused Man in there, so I choose to belive them.
I realy want to see the SC2 comunity and scene as an developed sport.
I want SC2 to be seen just like any other traditional sport.
I belive a big part in that is gender equality.
We need more women in SC2, we need more tournaments ONLY for women, to raise their Level of play.
Me and my Girlfriend could only name 2 traditional sports, that don t have seperate competition for men and women:
Motorsports (F1 and so on)
Horse riding
In Motorsports a lot of the dynamics are quite similar to esports, its dominated by men and the governing body is not an organisation but a company. They don t have National Teams but Coporate Teams on World Championship Level. And they tend to have the same problems with sexual harrassment. I never get why there is no F1 for women and I also never get why there is no high level SC2 event for women.
I m not talking 150k$ Warchest Money tournament, but why don t fund a 5k womens only tournament, blizz?
In my eyes, that would help a lot in pushing SC2 as a more serious sport and help for acceptance of esport in general.
Also I totally agree, it s a shame Avilo is allowed to play in any tournament To be blunt, legal action is very, very difficult in these situations because–unlike online discussions–legal arguments are held to standards of evidence. Legal accusations must be substantiated, and many of these cases are either years old, lacking material evidence, or both. Even in-person cases of sexual harassment often boil down to he-said-she-said type situations. Online ones are even less likely to meet courtroom standards. Which is to say, legal action is unlikely to lead anywhere.
Well I would like to see legal actions, BECAUSE they are different from an online mob. I realize its often realy hard for the victim. I realize it s hard to bring evidence. I still belive, that that would be the best way to help preventing further cases. Obviously only the victims can decide on that.
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On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people
Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second". It's fine to "show support" (whatever that means in the context of posting things on the internet) but as soon as you talk about ending people's livelihoods a different standard of proof needs to be used.
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EPT
