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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 24 2020 17:14 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second".
Legal actions involve a court, where they could prove their innocens. That s why I d like to se legal actions, there everyone can actually have a saying on the matter.
I say legal actions, not throw him in prison without letting him talk.
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On June 24 2020 17:12 EM1SAR wrote:
Honestly, most of these stories are nothingburgers compared to what some of us normal people experience every day. Don't get triggered just because the truth hurts your feelings. Be brave enough to call out hysteria and chaos and replace it with sovereignty and order.
I'm sure there's some meaning in this post but i'm struggling to find it.
On June 24 2020 17:17 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:14 mierin wrote:On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second". Legal actions involve a court, where they could prove their innocens. That s why I d like to se legal actions, there everyone can actually have a saying on the matter. I say legal actions, not throw him in prison without letting him talk.
Wait a minute someone's going to prison?
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On June 24 2020 17:17 Jockmcplop wrote:
Wait a minute someone's going to prison?
No, I was just exagerating. Someone was arguing legal actions would ruining someones live, without him beeing able to share his story. But that is was lynching does, not court.
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On June 24 2020 17:14 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second". It's fine to "show support" (whatever that means in the context of posting things on the internet) but as soon as you talk about ending people's livelihoods a different standard of proof needs to be used.
for real. Someone's already posted HenryG's rebuttal of rape accusations, a perfect example of why you don't just take the alleged victim's word for it. Without any proofs people can ruin your career out of spite and get away with it. This is bad.
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The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now.
Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president)
If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from.
(I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority)
This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved.
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On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave.
ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How?
There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately.
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On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately.
What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around?
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On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around?
go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up?
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On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up?
Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people.
You seem to think 'shut up and stop complaining unless you happen to have rock solid forensic evidence' is a solution, which it isn't.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
Legal actions involve a court, where they could prove their innocens.
Criminal courts are where people try to prove somebody guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, not where people are proven innocent.
Proving people innocent rather than guilty is extremely dangerous and the basis for the legal system in zero developed countries
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On June 24 2020 17:17 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:14 mierin wrote:On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second". Legal actions involve a court, where they could prove their innocens. That s why I d like to se legal actions, there everyone can actually have a saying on the matter. I say legal actions, not throw him in prison without letting him talk.
In courts it is required that accuser prove things happened. You dont need to prove Your innocence, unless we are talking Soviet Russia type of court.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On June 24 2020 17:09 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 16:30 Harris1st wrote:On June 24 2020 16:09 dbRic1203 wrote:
I belive a big part in that is gender equality.
We need more women in SC2, we need more tournaments ONLY for women, to raise their Level of play.
Me and my Girlfriend could only name 2 traditional sports, that don t have seperate competition for men and women:
Motorsports (F1 and so on)
Horse riding
In Motorsports a lot of the dynamics are quite similar to esports, its dominated by men and the governing body is not an organisation but a company. They don t have National Teams but Coporate Teams on World Championship Level. And they tend to have the same problems with sexual harrassment. I never get why there is no F1 for women and I also never get why there is no high level SC2 event for women.
I m not talking 150k$ Warchest Money tournament, but why don t fund a 5k womens only tournament, blizz?
In my eyes, that would help a lot in pushing SC2 as a more serious sport and help for acceptance of esport in general.
Maybe thats just me but I feel womens ONLY tournaments go in the opposite direction of gender equality. What seperates men and women (and all the other 100 genders) in esport of all things? Or am I missing something here? I know in team esport (CS:GO, LoL, ..) women have a hard time because men treat them unfairly in voice chat for example and I hate that! These days I'm just happy when my teammates in CSGO are halfway decent human beeings, doesn't matter if they are male, female or kids. Esports is a ugly world  Well esports is like 99% male dominated. If we d like to change that, we d need to support other genders, so an female only tournament would be a step in the right direction. Notable non- male SC2 Players/casters that come to my mind are only Scarlett, Nina and Zombygrub. That is pretty far away from gender equality to me. "Esports is a ugly world" is exactly what I don t want to see, especially with the esports, I follow, SC2. For that we need to change as a comunity and having more women in the scene would defnatly help with that I think. If you want it s the same as with region lock argument. It s not necessarily the most fair thing to males/kr but still hurts them way less than it s going to help the non-males/ non-Koreans.
Gender equality doesn't mean we have 50/50 ratio. If not enough women are interested in the field you won't achieve the mythical equality. It's more about that people don't care what genitals are attached to the person(if any) and they care more about what can you do.
Also a lot of the negativity to women comes from the "I am a woman treat me with presents" thing. I always feel cringy when I play SWTOR and I see in the chat "I am a girl/woman/etc ....", so what? I don't care, play the game and be whoever you like to be, I am usually a tank  I don't like the negativity/toxicity being based on anything except the gaming performance. We should stop caring if the other person is green, blue(Chiss is a thing!), what they belief in or what they think they are(if you think you're the new Yoda, so be it). It. Doesn't. Matter. All that matters is their gaming performance.
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There is a reason that legal punishments require legal standards of proof. Once you take a case out of the legal court and into the court of public opinion, neither the same standards nor the same punishments apply. People will say what they want, claim what they want, and the truth is less important than the popularity of a specific narrative. It becomes a PR contest or political fight or social commentary instead of a legal case.
Realistically speaking, public accusations are part of the risk of being a public figure. Just like sexual harassment is part of the risk of, well, sex. Whether or not you think such things should be the case doesn't change the fact that they are.
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On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people.
your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this:
On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:
HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever.
Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof.
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United Kingdom20343 Posts
Gender equality doesn't mean we have 50/50 ratio. If not enough women are interested in the field you won't achieve the mythical equality.
Depends if you're talking about equality of outcome or opportunity, which a lot of people get mixed up on. There's almost no reasonable argument against equality of opportunity.
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On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof.
I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy.
When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out.
Here's the thing about speaking out:
One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward.
This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases.
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28102 Posts
On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved.
I agree that people should be cautious and look into the various situations from both sides. I’m just saying that the first reaction however should not be that, as it’s essentially what dissuades these posts to begin with.
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EPT
