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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
Twitch is actually looking into this:
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 24 2020 17:39 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:17 dbRic1203 wrote:On June 24 2020 17:14 mierin wrote:On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second". Legal actions involve a court, where they could prove their innocens. That s why I d like to se legal actions, there everyone can actually have a saying on the matter. I say legal actions, not throw him in prison without letting him talk. In courts it is required that accuser prove things happened. You dont need to prove Your innocence, unless we are talking Soviet Russia type of court.
I would advise you to check your legal system, because in the Czech Republic if you're accused of a sexual offense you're proving your innocense. This is the only thing where "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply IIRC. While you're not going to prison without any evidence(because there's the another rule - in dubio pro reo), but the burden is on your side as well. And the last time I checked we were in the EU and it appears to be perfectly legal.
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This (some of the previous posts) is sorta getting at what I was talking about when mentioning that focusing on individuals neglects the deeper issues at play.
It involves a perspective shift where instead of looking at individuals and deciphering reasons they (women in this case) occupy so little of the community space, it means looking at the community and wondering why it doesn't attract more (in this case) women.
Typically the answer is the latent/overt (in this case) misogyny being tolerated and/or embraced when performed by ostensible pillars of the community and permeating through the community as a whole. Also the people speaking out about it are ostracized as "disruptive, scene killers, on personal vendettas, exaggerating, asked for it, should have said something, etc" rather than taken seriously and considered cause for sincere and serious introspection at the community and individual level.
That's to say if the particular individual stories all reached just conclusions in themselves that'd be great, but far from enough. These moments demand of us that we do more than that. That we collectively look inward at our mistakes and how we can moderate our own behavior, which includes speaking up on behalf/raising the voices of those that bring these shortcomings to our attention, particularly when they face criticism from those that seek to silence and undermine them (consciously/intentionally or not).
I trust if people looked they don't have to go as far back or deep as gamergate to find posts that are not only unacceptable examples of that type of misogony now, but were unacceptable (and sometimes to the TL communities credit noted as such at the time) then too.
That there may be women that dealt with that through acceptance or even "joining in" on it is not the exculpatory bedrock it is often seen as in these types of situations either imo. So while I hope everyone directly involved in what's been mentioned so far finds fulfilling resolution, I really hope this moment catalyzes a deeper engagement with how we all play a part in perpetuating the circumstances locally/individually and as larger communities (TL, SC2, Gamers, etc) that lead to these stories we struggle to read through without intense feelings of discomfort that pale in comparison to those felt by the people sharing them in the moments themselves and in bringing them to light.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 24 2020 17:42 TheEmulator wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:30 deacon.frost wrote:On June 24 2020 13:55 TheEmulator wrote:On June 24 2020 12:45 GreasedUpDeafGuy wrote:
also, people just believing all of these claims with no evidence. Hilarious
User was banned for this post. That's not necessarily the case. People are giving women the benefit of doubt and allowing their stories to be heard because for so long they haven't been. The onus should be on the accused to then come forward, either to apologize and admit to what they did or provide legitimate evidence that disproves it all. It's not on the audience to make that call on either case. In 99% of cases coming forward it usually tends to be true anyway. edit: also why did I just respond to someone that is banned. I don't do drugs but I might be on something right now. Is there actually any valid study that most of these stories are true and valid? No offense, but everyone can post on social media anything they want, see some prominent posters(the best example would be the current US president) If you were not an admin replying to a banned post I would ignore, but this way I wanna know where this comes from. (I expect the 99 % being exaggeration thus I used the term majority) This can hurt people lives seriously, so some caution needs to be taken. Also I am surprised there's no channel to solve this, considering we are talking about professional e-sports/streamers. I would expect at least Twitch and KeSPA had some anonymous channel to report this and get this solved. I agree that people should be cautious and look into the various situations from both sides. I’m just saying that the first reaction however should not be that, as it’s essentially what dissuades these posts to begin with.
Oh, OK, I misunderstood you then. I agree, saying right away that everybody lies... while it's a nice quote from House MD it shouldn't be used in a serious cases.
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On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:
HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever.
Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases.
we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel.
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On June 24 2020 17:13 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 16:34 pvsnp wrote:On June 24 2020 16:09 dbRic1203 wrote:
Let s hope, there s something good coming out of all this revelations here. I realy hope, that there are going to be legal actions following this and further investigations from Blizz/ Tournament organisers as well.
To everyone, who says "they are just making stuff up to ruin someones live" most of the stories don t even have the Name of the accused Man in there, so I choose to belive them.
I realy want to see the SC2 comunity and scene as an developed sport.
I want SC2 to be seen just like any other traditional sport.
I belive a big part in that is gender equality.
We need more women in SC2, we need more tournaments ONLY for women, to raise their Level of play.
Me and my Girlfriend could only name 2 traditional sports, that don t have seperate competition for men and women:
Motorsports (F1 and so on)
Horse riding
In Motorsports a lot of the dynamics are quite similar to esports, its dominated by men and the governing body is not an organisation but a company. They don t have National Teams but Coporate Teams on World Championship Level. And they tend to have the same problems with sexual harrassment. I never get why there is no F1 for women and I also never get why there is no high level SC2 event for women.
I m not talking 150k$ Warchest Money tournament, but why don t fund a 5k womens only tournament, blizz?
In my eyes, that would help a lot in pushing SC2 as a more serious sport and help for acceptance of esport in general.
Also I totally agree, it s a shame Avilo is allowed to play in any tournament To be blunt, legal action is very, very difficult in these situations because–unlike online discussions–legal arguments are held to standards of evidence. Legal accusations must be substantiated, and many of these cases are either years old, lacking material evidence, or both. Even in-person cases of sexual harassment often boil down to he-said-she-said type situations. Online ones are even less likely to meet courtroom standards. Which is to say, legal action is unlikely to lead anywhere. Well I would like to see legal actions, BECAUSE they are different from an online mob. I realize its often realy hard for the victim. I realize it s hard to bring evidence. I still belive, that that would be the best way to help preventing further cases. Obviously only the victims can decide on that.
In an ideal world, I completely agree with you.
Nothing to me is more frightening than a mobs capability for destruction, group think is a danger - always.
I agree, that in an ideal world, people would be pursue action immediately and as a community, we could hash out our individual opinions on situations in real time. And in an ideal world, everyone who has had something happen to them would have the means and desire to pursue criminal charges for conduct that rises to that.
But we aren't there.
We are at the information collection phase. Separating fact from not-fact. Separating conduct that is malicious and potentially criminal from conduct that is inappropriate and creepy.
This is our first go as a community with members collectively coming forward about treatment. Some people seem to have known things for years,that is coming out now too, but it is way too early in the conversation to expect anyone to have followed a type of logical formula.
If there was a comfortable outlet..... We wouldn't be here.
Also, some conduct will come forward that is not criminal under any law, but it will still be conduct unbecoming of a good person. That is why we have to have these messy, awkward, depressing conversations.
I hate the idea of an innocent going to the gallows almost as much as I hate the idea of people using the power they gain from us to hurt people.
I responded to you because I agree with your point but I felt it simplifies to situation too much.
We have no idea how many people woke up the last few days, saw this topic gain traction and are at this very moment considering whether or not to come forward, could be a few bad apples, could be lake of cider.
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On June 24 2020 07:50 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 07:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im just happy it's not about any of the active and well known talent or community figures. Honest to god, I cant recall who Rapid was, and i'm not about to google him. Avilo is a creep, that's known for long and he's always been marginalized. Havent ever heard about that Korean coach/manager.
Let's see if there's more coming out, but the above cases, while bad, arent painting a picture of hostile and harassing/abusive climate/ community. All things considered, fairly few cases so far for a 10+ year period, involving hundreds of people. The woman who started the reddit post on the same subject evoked a similar experience with someone "very very well known and still successfull in SC2" that is very powerfull. Somehow I don't think she meant Rapid.  Anyway no point in guessing, hopefully the comportement of said person has/will change.
Yeah, i dont know, as I said, let's wait and see. I dont really put much weight in implied accusations, there might be something big, or might be small or nothing.
I think it's pretty clear at this point that it's "safe" to come out with these stories, so if that person has a story he/she can tell it, it's up to them.
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On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel.
Just because you decided its bad for people to speak up, doesn't make it so. You might as well say to sexual harassment victims 'shit happens, deal with it', but equally you could say that to false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer..
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On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel.
Most stories didn t even spell the name out.
In Rapids case, as it was mentioned by like 3 or 4 women by now allready, that s enough proof for me tbh. Am I a bad person for that? Maybe? Is it right to be done with him, without letting him speak? Defnatly not.
Most others accused here were kept anonym, so they didn t get any public backlash, jet.
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GGWP of those to stand against sexual harassment . We need to fight hard to eliminate it from our societies and that transcends SC2.
This is honestly worst that the betting scandals.
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On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer..
what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then?
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On June 24 2020 17:44 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:39 Silvanel wrote:On June 24 2020 17:17 dbRic1203 wrote:On June 24 2020 17:14 mierin wrote:On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second". Legal actions involve a court, where they could prove their innocens. That s why I d like to se legal actions, there everyone can actually have a saying on the matter. I say legal actions, not throw him in prison without letting him talk. In courts it is required that accuser prove things happened. You dont need to prove Your innocence, unless we are talking Soviet Russia type of court. I would advise you to check your legal system, because in the Czech Republic if you're accused of a sexual offense you're proving your innocense. This is the only thing where "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply IIRC. While you're not going to prison without any evidence(because there's the another rule - in dubio pro reo), but the burden is on your side as well. And the last time I checked we were in the EU and it appears to be perfectly legal.
I dont care much about courts in Czech R. I am not going to discuss it.
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On June 24 2020 17:51 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. Most stories didn t even spell the name out.
nothing wrong with that, I support all of the people behind those stories.
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On June 24 2020 17:53 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:47 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:42 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:41 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:35 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:34 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:32 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 17:27 lechatnoir wrote:
The justice system isn't very good to victims of sexual assaults/harassment/abuse in most countries for complicated reasons. Everyone demanding court level proof should educate themselves about just how hard it is for the vast majority of victims to get justice or even get their case heard and not dismissed.
That's the main reason why speaking out and not getting dismissed immediately is so important. If the general public doesn't listen to victims neither will the law.
Thank you to everyone speaking up. You are all brave. ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. What would you suggest someone does if they are sexually harassed when no-one else is around? go to police? Collect biological evidence? There absolutely should not be any action if you don't have the evidence. Otherwise I would be asking you the same: what do you suggest someone does if they get accused of rape which happened years ago with literally zero evidence to back it up? Go public so the victim can have some effect on whether or not rapist carries on raping people. your problem is you're automatically assuming the victim is really the victim and the rape happened. Once again I refer you to this: On June 24 2020 09:07 geokilla wrote:HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever. https://twitter.com/HenryGcsgo/status/1275519877441298434 Imagine if he hadn't had the screenshots. His career would end because of a deranged person's false accusations. Don't assume anything without proof. I understand this. It is a dilemma with two sides and nothing will make both sides happy. When you look at the whole situation I prefer to side with those speaking out. Here's the thing about speaking out: One guy could have sexually harassed hundreds, or thousands of women, and could develop later on into a rapist. If those hundreds of women don't feel supported in speaking out, these people will continue doing what they are doing, and it only takes the first victim to speak and then the others come forward. This is a pattern that has been seen with many high profile rape/harassment/sexual assault cases. we live in the social media age. The act of speaking up itself is where the irreparable damage happens. Rapid is already done for. So imo if you don't have the evidence, sorry, you don't get to speak up AND name the person at the same time. That's just libel. false accusation victims, of which there are far, far fewer.. what's your source on that? If you demonstrated that 95% of the accusations are real I maybe would've agreed that the 5% need to take the hit to straighten things out. But where's that data then?
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
Of course not.
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdf
The closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes).
So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%.
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This is awful, but as GreenHorizon said, it's a systematic issue in our community (and the world at large) and we need to see the context in which this can happen.
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On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources.
On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%.
the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that (especially since the Rapid stories for example don't speak of rape at all, it's dick pics), the reputational damage however can be huge.
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Eleine's story is the most horrible one so far. She writes she only did not get raped in her hotel room by a pro player because she was wearing a corset that the guy could not get off. When she talked to his coach about the incident, he swept the issue under the rug.
Ugh.
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On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge.
How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police?
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On June 24 2020 18:13 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 18:10 juvenal wrote:On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:
It should be common knowledge. Are you suggesting that more people make up stories of sexual crime than perpetrate the crimes and get away with it?
wtf? No it absolutely shouldn't. I'm not suggesting anything, it's you who is suggesting the false accusations make up a negligible amount. Which is why I'm asking for some sources. On June 24 2020 18:00 Jockmcplop wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/1996/96sec2.pdfThe closest I can get to a source is the FBI, who talk about 1996 'unfounded' rape allegations, which they put at 8% (compared to 2% with other crimes). So unfounded allegations are 4 times more common with rape than any other case and they are still less than 10%. And that ignores rapes that were committed and never reported, and the same document suggests that only 35% of rapes are reported, so if you include all rapes, the number that were investigated and found to be unfounded would be about 2.7%. the FBI data has nothing to do with issue at hand. They look at crimes "reported to law enforcement". You falsely report a rape, you can do jail time. What we here discuss is damn posts on social media. No one is going to jail for that, the reputational damage however can be huge. How do you expect me to have statistics about sexual crime reported on social media but not to the police?
then why do you say it's common knowledge? How can you know? You're assuming a hell lot when you say the stories must be true because why not.
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On June 24 2020 17:14 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 17:00 Shuffleblade wrote:On June 24 2020 09:16 serendipitous wrote:On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 How come this was buried without a single reply, this is some pretty mind blowing coverage right here. Even if it took place in the league world and technically has nothing to do with starcraft. I tend to to have a hard time understanding the "give proof crowd", if a member of your community (put in any context you wish, school, workplace, sport club and so on) brought up how they been feeling bullied or harassed how would you respond. A) Show me proof before I give you any reply and/or support.B) That sucks, you shouldn't have to go through that and if I can help to make sure it doesn't happen again I will.C) Wow, I would never have thought that(/have always thought that) about X, I will totally make him/her suffer for this.In case you didn't get the point; the important thing is show support and solidarity with people that share painful experiences. When someone is asking for help (maybe for the first time) don't belittle them or demand proof just because someone else in a world far far away have shouted wolf and lied about it. Its not about punising someone, its about empowering the people that have gone through some tough shit and letting them know that their voice matter and that they are heard. Love over hate people Would you have an easier time understanding if someone accused you of something you didn't do, and you had to face the consequences? This is very serious business. Legal action has been brought up multiple times in this thread, and that's where some folks like myself are like "hold on a second". It's fine to "show support" (whatever that means in the context of posting things on the internet) but as soon as you talk about ending people's livelihoods a different standard of proof needs to be used.
If someone felt they were harassed by me and were open with that I would much prefer people support that person.
Reading your reply it seems almost like you didn't read my post. I clearly elaborated that I feel the focus should not be to either question the victim nor attack the supposed offender. The important thing we as a community should do is not attack either party, don't attack the person that is pointed out as the offender and don't attack the victim, instead support the person that has been through a hard time.
If you read my post you should be able to see what I mean by showing support just by reading. As one voice and one part of the commnuity you show that you take a stance against the actions described by the supposed victim. You sympathize with their feelings of being abused and that they have a right to feel respected and also have their boundaries respected.
By saying those things and by taking a stance against harassment that does not mean I am lobbying for anyone to harass the harasser or for the supposed offender to lose his, get death threats or any other crazy thing. I am saying the opposite, don't attack anyone just show support, and yes OI would say the exact same thing if I was the supposed offender.
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EPT
