EPTHarassment/Abuse in StarCraft 2 - Page 10
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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4767 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24033 Posts
On June 24 2020 19:29 Dav1oN wrote: Obviously that is a world scale problem due to a twisted/wicked society we have built through ages. Such agressive behaviour is in our ape DNA, and it will be almost impossible to eliminate withing single generation. It's been like this for centuries, just we didn't had an opportunity to share with the public back in days, and people overall became more sensitive, sometimes even oversensitive. I can't with the "in our ape DNA" part but we have to know as a community the prevalence of misogyny/the other harm/abuse described isn't something the public is just discovering, we've just avoided reconciling it with our purported values and ideals until social media (and people coming forward) made it largely unavoidable. On June 24 2020 19:29 deacon.frost wrote: I don't have a better term as I am not a native English speaker, would use better if known better. Pitchforking seems to me ... wrong. On June 24 2020 19:39 Silvanel wrote: Mob justice? "People seeking accountability" would work fine, unless the point is to be dismissively pejorative. | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7577 Posts
On June 24 2020 19:17 col_jung wrote: No doubt real abuse is terrifying, but so is how easy it is to destroy someone's reputation on the internet without providing any proof. If you want to publicly call out bad behaviour, that's OK. If you're going to do it without an inch of proof, then I'm not cool with that. But ... can't the person accused just say, "There is zero proof because this didn't happen." What is the problem? Do you think that anyone of accused of something will be blindly judged? You just said "no proof, I'm not cool"..... even if it happened? Even if it is a real victim informing the world about a real problem person? Look at this thread, there are more of you worried about levels of proof and debating whether people .... have the right to speak out than anything else. You are the majority. This is not some other community. These are real people. Men and young men are the largest population here. There are no brownie points with the girls crowd to win here with false virtue signaling, and wolfcriers always get caught in the end, and in this community, that persons story would get shredded if false. Why do all men say this whenever another man is accused of something? Nobody on earth wants to have these conversations. They are gross. Your peers in this community do not have an anti-male bias. This isn't some cnn media story about millionaires with pr firms. These are regular working people with nothing to gain and everything to lose. This is not a red scare. It won't be. Maybe somewhere else. Here never. Nobody wants to see members of the community tarnished. Nobody wants to lose sponsorship's or gain negative attention over this. Nobody wants any of this. Since the old way didn't work. It's now like this whether you are cool with it or not. | ||
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lechatnoir
392 Posts
On June 24 2020 17:30 juvenal wrote: ok mate, how about this: I'll speak up right now and tell everyone what happened between you and me the other night. I gave no consent whatsoever, yet you did what you did. How can you post of this forum after that? How? There, praise my bravery and don't you dare dismissing it immediately. There's no point in engaging with this bad faith nonsense. Edit: Others have done so very well and I have nothing more to add. | ||
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HsDLTitich
Italy831 Posts
This isn't new, I just wish that at least *this time* we all listen to all the people that are coming forward with their stories and we finally start ostracizing the most vile and toxic people in our communities. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On June 24 2020 16:59 TT1 wrote: This is why i miss forums like TL, ppl used to get to know each other. Everyone was passionate about the same thing, it was simple. You could talk about the same topic for months and really get to know everyone in the thread. People were up front and honest. Imo some of these situations could be avoided if the community was more centralized/close knit. what happened man (rhetorical, reddit happened xd) I get what you're saying here, but unfortunately this can be a real problem as well. Dota 2 is going through its own revelations at the moment, and the worst comes from NADota, which was a similarly close knit community. That community was part of what led to abusers being covered for and friends protecting each other, along with mob mentality and similar. I will say that NADota was by all accounts a horrible community, while TL has always been a better forum than most, so that at least makes things different. However, given that the epicentre for abuse in StarCraft has so far been team houses - the most close knit community you can get in gaming - I don't think community is enough. So I agree that community helps. But more than that, we need a community that is proactive in shutting down harassment and that doesn't turn a blind eye. Unfortunately that's clearly not been how the scene has been. But there's a chance going forward for every individual to do a small amount in taking abuse and harassment seriously wherever they see it and calling it out where they can. But ultimately systemic change only really comes if those with clout in the scene choose to change things and stop allowing these things to happen. The change needed is spelled out in Eleine Sun's Twitlonger about attempted rape by a pro: the player is of course the primary wrongdoer, but the manager who didn't care and was just generally heinous has serious responsibility also. Unfortunately harassment and assault are part of the world, and SC2 will never be the only place they don't exist. But someone like that manager had an opportunity to take a stand against it and make SC2 a place where it's not acceptable. Instead they decided to not care and to be part of the group that made assault acceptable in our community. So if things are to change we need those with power to care and take action wherever possible - especially given the frequently escalating nature of sexual harassment and abuse. And we need the community to care and demand better from those in power as well. This needs to not be just about individual abusers, but about the community as a whole. | ||
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farvacola
United States18863 Posts
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Pistolen-Luuk
33 Posts
I don't think it is likely that any of the perpetrators is going to suffer legal consequences here, that's just not how the system is built at the moment. So esports has to change, and that can only be done through protest. And real struggle almost always involves some form of violence (in this case the possibility of someone being falsly accused)(and honestly, it's not like no one is in the position to defend oneself). Put against the systemic violence we're dealing with I think we should accept that trade. In my view these issues are very much related to the regular reports I see about oher forms of exploitation going in the esports scene, i.e. people not getting paid, cowboy managers etc. After that stuff is fixed we might be able to talk about 'proving' stuff or taking legal action. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
"Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46066 Posts
It doesn't matter if the victim is well-known or not. It doesn't matter if the perpetrator is well-known or not. We need to be a safe and supportive community for everyone, and reflecting that can help people feel more comfortable with sharing their stories (if and when they ever feel ready). It will be significantly easier to identify perpetrators by shedding light on their misdeeds, and maybe sharing stories can prevent the perpetrator from doing it to someone else, or at least validate other victims into sharing their stories too. | ||
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Elmonti
Spain299 Posts
My personal opinion is that it will be the classic "I thought It wasn't that bad, just joking, but I apologize to those women if the y felt offended and I have learnt the lesson" apologize letter... Still the 3 of them have told similar stories, him talking about his penis obsession with perv intentions, and the guy sometimes looks like a creep. So yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. Pretty disgusted with the people who says "no proofs = didn't happen". It's not that simple. Proofs and hints are different things. In his case, hints (several women, same allegations, behaviour of the guy, etc.) points towards those stories being true. But as I said, let's see his response. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote: Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear. "Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. What if I have the problem with both equally? oO | ||
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[tyu38]
Poland121 Posts
No evidence, no photos, only words from random (stupid?) girl. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Jendi
11 Posts
Innocent, until proven guilty - we support you bro. User was banned for this post. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27174 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:31 [tyu38] wrote: #FREERAPID No evidence, no photos, only words from random (stupid?) girl. User was banned for this post. Posts like this are disingenuous to the discussion. Don’t do it please. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 24 2020 19:45 AttackZerg wrote: But ... can't the person accused just say, "There is zero proof because this didn't happen." What is the problem? They can, nobody cares. That's the issue, these posts have the potential to seriously harm people. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote: Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear. "Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. Good lord. I seriously hope this is some kind of joke or a troll. Me making an accusation of a crime does not in any way at all evidence anything. On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote: It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. Yeah, but normally they call witnesses beyond just the accuser, for obvious reasons. If you have a completely unrelated person whose testimony mirrors yours about the specific incident then that carries value. No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. May not go to jail, but it can ruin relationships, careers, a lot of other things. This is not some kind of "take some give some" deal, we can't accept there being a way of just ruining someone's reputation for free. We still need to work on a solution for rape victims, but cholera is not a solution to plague. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:29 deacon.frost wrote: What if I have the problem with both equally? oO Then your priorities are skewed. I'm not saying false accusations or career harm aren't potential issues. I'm saying they are far outweighed by the very real climate of harassment and abuse. | ||
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WaesumNinja
210 Posts
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:11 Pistolen-Luuk wrote: What if we look at this as a form of protest? I don't think it is likely that any of the perpetrators is going to suffer legal consequences here, that's just not how the system is built at the moment. So esports has to change, and that can only be done through protest. And real struggle almost always involves some form of violence (in this case the possibility of someone being falsly accused)(and honestly, it's not like no one is in the position to defend oneself). Put against the systemic violence we're dealing with I think we should accept that trade. In my view these issues are very much related to the regular reports I see about oher forms of exploitation going in the esports scene, i.e. people not getting paid, cowboy managers etc. After that stuff is fixed we might be able to talk about 'proving' stuff or taking legal action. Coming back to my initial point, where is this systematic violence you're talking about? As i said, it's subject to change, but right now, i'm legit impressed and glad that none of the mainstream and "powerful" people have any accusations against them, majority of the stories are 10 years old and involving no-names. And again, i'm not saying it's not bad, or it should be dismissed, or anything, I'm only saying, to me at least, it seems there isnt anything systematic about it, in the case of SC2. If anything, the SC2 talent community seems to be the most well behaved and wholesome out there. I tried reading everything, not sure I succeeded, but to me it seems the only predator who really had any power was that Korean manager/coach guy, TLO identified him as being from OGS back in the day. And i agree, it's completely fucked up and not sure where he is right now, but if he has anything to do with the scene, he should be cut, but i think he isnt. Avilo is marginalized, and has always been afaik, has been banned from everything either temporarily or permanently. Rapid's story is fucked up as well, again i dont even remember who that is, and as far as i can tell, he was being a creep in online DMs. (edit: allegedly) What is systematic about all of this? Where s the pattern, what is connecting all these cases, where are the people who knew about it and stayed silent? If it were ANYONE from like the top 10 casters, team managers, known event organizers, decision makers that were implicated, then sure I wouldnt fault anyone from jumping to conclusions about there being a systematic problem, predators being allowed and protected and all that.... But the cases above seem to be only about individuals acting in an f-ed up way, which is almost inevitable, you cannot vet everyone so well, that you're 100% sure that 100% of people you allow to be part of the SC2 talent community are beyond reproach. Again, im cautiously optimistic, there might be more coming out in the next period of time, but if that's it, in a history of 10-12 year of SC2 esports, then im legit impressed. | ||
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