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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
Czech Republic12133 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:47 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:29 deacon.frost wrote:On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear.
"Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. What if I have the problem with both equally? oO Then your priorities are skewed. I'm not saying false accusations or career harm aren't potential issues. I'm saying they are far outweighed by the very real climate of harassment and abuse.
I think you're the one skewed or you have no idea how destructive false accusations can be. Do i really have to google the guy who took his own life over false accusations and their consequences?
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On June 24 2020 20:46 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear.
"Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. Good lord. I seriously hope this is some kind of joke or a troll. Me making an accusation of a crime does not in any way at all evidence anything. Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. Yeah, but normally they call witnesses beyond just the accuser, for obvious reasons. If you have a completely unrelated person whose testimony mirrors yours about the specific incident then that carries value. Show nested quote +No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. May not go to jail, but it can ruin relationships, careers, a lot of other things. This is not some kind of "take some give some" deal, we can't accept there being a way of just ruining someone's reputation for free. We still need to work on a solution for rape victims, but cholera is not a solution to plague.
The accusations in question are not in the style of formal pleadings that lack independent evidentiary value, they are testimonial accusations in which someone combines a charge with a factual, personal knowledge-based description. The latter absolutely is evidence.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:46 WaesumNinja wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear.
"Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. Good lord. I seriously hope this is some kind of joke or a troll. Me making an accusation of a crime does not in any way at all evidence anything. Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. Yeah, but normally they call witnesses beyond just the accuser, for obvious reasons. If you have a completely unrelated person whose testimony mirrors yours about the specific incident then that carries value. Show nested quote +No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. May not go to jail, but it can ruin relationships, careers, a lot of other things. This is not some kind of "take some give some" deal, we can't accept there being a way of just ruining someone's reputation for free. We still need to work on a solution for rape victims, but cholera is not a solution to plague.
Fortunately I never said we need to hear only one person's testimony. A recurring theme in most of the allegations that are coming out presently is that there are others who have had similar experiences or have seen/heard about these situations in the past. Very often the accuser have told someone about their experience years before but kept it private. In fact, I cannot think of a single instance where one person made an accusation without corroboration that resulted in any negative consequences for the alleged abuser. The nature of these stories is that they are often frequent, or the alleged abusers have "a history" with multiple people. Nearly every story in the esports industry so far shares those characteristics.
But in a theoretical scenario where there is no corroboration, what is your suggestion for victims of rape or harassment? Stay quiet in the absence of forensic evidence? The core issue is that people stay quiet because they feel they won't be believed, or because speaking up will have negative consequences, or precisely because they do not have forensic evidence. Justice systems across the world disbelieve and minimize victims of sexual violence, and so do their corresponding social spheres. There is no serious "work" on a solution for rape victims on a global scale. The fact that these allegations come out in public instead of via courts and police is an indictment of justice systems.
And again, I acknowledge that false accusations could potentially ruin careers. I maintain that it is vanishingly uncommon compared to very real systematic harassment and abuse, and therefore far smaller of a problem.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On June 24 2020 20:49 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:47 Zealously wrote:On June 24 2020 20:29 deacon.frost wrote:On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear.
"Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. What if I have the problem with both equally? oO Then your priorities are skewed. I'm not saying false accusations or career harm aren't potential issues. I'm saying they are far outweighed by the very real climate of harassment and abuse. I think you're the one skewed or you have no idea how destructive false accusations can be. Do i really have to google the guy who took his own life over false accusations and their consequences?
You don't. I am disputing the scale of the latter problem versus the former. In an ideal world, false accusations are immediately dismissed and the accuser receives consequences. However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. Don't mistake this as an argument that false allegations are fine. They are not. But to be more concerned over how false allegations might affect someone than the fact that countless of people are sexually abused and disbelieved when they try to come forward every year, is to have skewed priorities.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On June 24 2020 21:04 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 20:46 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear.
"Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. Good lord. I seriously hope this is some kind of joke or a troll. Me making an accusation of a crime does not in any way at all evidence anything. On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. Yeah, but normally they call witnesses beyond just the accuser, for obvious reasons. If you have a completely unrelated person whose testimony mirrors yours about the specific incident then that carries value. No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. May not go to jail, but it can ruin relationships, careers, a lot of other things. This is not some kind of "take some give some" deal, we can't accept there being a way of just ruining someone's reputation for free. We still need to work on a solution for rape victims, but cholera is not a solution to plague. Fortunately I never said we need to hear only one person's testimony. A recurring theme in most of the allegations that are coming out presently is that there are others who have had similar experiences or have seen/heard about these situations in the past. Very often the accuser have told someone about their experience years before but kept it private. In fact, I cannot think of a single instance where one person made an accusation without corroboration that resulted in any negative consequences for the alleged abuser. The nature of these stories is that they are often frequent, or the alleged abusers have "a history" with multiple people. Nearly every story in the esports industry so far shares those characteristics. But in a theoretical scenario where there is no corroboration, what is your suggestion for victims of rape or harassment? Stay quiet in the absence of forensic evidence? The core issue is that people stay quiet because they feel they won't be believed, or because speaking up will have negative consequences, or precisely because they do not have forensic evidence. Justice systems across the world disbelieve and minimize victims of sexual violence, and so do their corresponding social spheres. There is no serious "work" on a solution for rape victims on a global scale. The fact that these allegations come out in public instead of via courts and police is an indictment of justice systems. And again, I acknowledge that false accusations could potentially ruin careers. I maintain that it is vanishingly uncommon compared to very real systematic harassment and abuse, and therefore far smaller of a problem.
Dude, false accusation can take away your marriage, friends and children. Career ending is the light version of this. It's very dangerous, especially on the internets where it may launch an avalanche of people going to pursue you just because somebody accused you. We saw this in the past both ways(fans of accused spam the accuser and vice versa). That's why some urge for caution.
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On June 24 2020 21:08 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:04 Zealously wrote:On June 24 2020 20:46 WaesumNinja wrote:On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
Generally speaking, I think you have a problem if the thought of someone's career taking a hit disturbs you more than the thought of countless people being abused or harassed and forced to keep quiet out of fear.
"Where is the evidence?" testimony is evidence. Good lord. I seriously hope this is some kind of joke or a troll. Me making an accusation of a crime does not in any way at all evidence anything. On June 24 2020 20:22 Zealously wrote:
It is not forensic evidence, but there is a reason courts call witnesses. Yeah, but normally they call witnesses beyond just the accuser, for obvious reasons. If you have a completely unrelated person whose testimony mirrors yours about the specific incident then that carries value. No one is going to jail over a Twitter post. If you're more bothered by mob justice than there being no justice at all, that's a key part of this problem. May not go to jail, but it can ruin relationships, careers, a lot of other things. This is not some kind of "take some give some" deal, we can't accept there being a way of just ruining someone's reputation for free. We still need to work on a solution for rape victims, but cholera is not a solution to plague. Fortunately I never said we need to hear only one person's testimony. A recurring theme in most of the allegations that are coming out presently is that there are others who have had similar experiences or have seen/heard about these situations in the past. Very often the accuser have told someone about their experience years before but kept it private. In fact, I cannot think of a single instance where one person made an accusation without corroboration that resulted in any negative consequences for the alleged abuser. The nature of these stories is that they are often frequent, or the alleged abusers have "a history" with multiple people. Nearly every story in the esports industry so far shares those characteristics. But in a theoretical scenario where there is no corroboration, what is your suggestion for victims of rape or harassment? Stay quiet in the absence of forensic evidence? The core issue is that people stay quiet because they feel they won't be believed, or because speaking up will have negative consequences, or precisely because they do not have forensic evidence. Justice systems across the world disbelieve and minimize victims of sexual violence, and so do their corresponding social spheres. There is no serious "work" on a solution for rape victims on a global scale. The fact that these allegations come out in public instead of via courts and police is an indictment of justice systems. And again, I acknowledge that false accusations could potentially ruin careers. I maintain that it is vanishingly uncommon compared to very real systematic harassment and abuse, and therefore far smaller of a problem. Dude, false accusation can take away your marriage, friends and children. Career ending is the light version of this. It's very dangerous, especially on the internets where it may launch an avalanche of people going to pursue you just because somebody accused you. We saw this in the past both ways(fans of accused spam the accuser and vice versa). That's why some urge for caution.
Why is your focus solely on the accused here? Doesn't it strike you as odd that you're able to conclude that caution is needed without any sort of accounting for how widespread cultures of silence are?
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On June 24 2020 21:04 Zealously wrote:
Fortunately I never said we need to hear only one person's testimony. A recurring theme in most of the allegations that are coming out presently is that there are others who have had similar experiences or have seen/heard about these situations in the past. Very often the accuser have told someone about their experience years before but kept it private. In fact, I cannot think of a single instance where one person made an accusation without corroboration that resulted in any negative consequences for the alleged abuser. The nature of these stories is that they are often frequent, or the alleged abusers have "a history" with multiple people. Nearly every story in the esports industry so far shares those characteristics.
Different people making separate accusations doesn't count as multiple 3rd party witnesses to the incident first described. If I claim you stole my keyboard 5 years ago, and then someone else pops up claiming you stole something from them too last year, then that doesn't qualify as a testimony, or establish that you have "a history".
But in a theoretical scenario where there is no corroboration, what is your suggestion for victims of rape or harassment? Stay quiet in the absence of forensic evidence? The core issue is that people stay quiet because they feel they won't be believed, or because speaking up will have negative consequences, or precisely because they do not have forensic evidence. Justice systems across the world disbelieve and minimize victims of sexual violence, and so do their corresponding social spheres. There is no serious "work" on a solution for rape victims on a global scale. The fact that these allegations come out in public instead of via courts and police is an indictment of justice systems.
Yeah, it is a problem that perpetrators can get away with rape when there's only the two of them involved. I don't think encouraging people to speak up about it in social media is the solution here, I think they should be encouraged to go to the police, collect any evidence they can and get the perpetrator locked up. I understand this is not easy, and the time when the evidence is ripe is also the time when the victim is in the most pained state. From the way things stand, the victims need a lot more support here.
And again, I acknowledge that false accusations could potentially ruin careers. I maintain that it is vanishingly uncommon compared to very real systematic harassment and abuse, and therefore far smaller of a problem.
How can you be so sure that this is so vanishingly uncommon? Would it be a small problem for you to be sacrificed on this altar?
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However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other.
There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it?
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On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote:Show nested quote + However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it?
What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion?
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Interaction and small taking with Rapid several times over the last 2 years since I am playing Starcraft. No signs of creepiness he was always chill. I would love to see any proof otherwise I don't believe it.
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On June 24 2020 21:24 jessiesc1 wrote:
Interaction and small taking with Rapid several times over the last 2 years since I am playing Starcraft. No signs of creepiness he was always chill. I would love to see any proof otherwise I don't believe it.
You mean like multiple people coming forward with stories that corroborate inappropriate behavior from him?
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On June 24 2020 21:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:24 jessiesc1 wrote:
Interaction and small taking with Rapid several times over the last 2 years since I am playing Starcraft. No signs of creepiness he was always chill. I would love to see any proof otherwise I don't believe it. You mean like multiple people coming forward with stories that corroborate inappropriate behavior from him?
Yes. I want full conversation to know the context.
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On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion?
I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this.
One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it',
one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules
and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment.
I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea.
PS: Also I can definitely think someone is guilty of something but still believe he/she should not be persecuted (not sure this is the right word) for it until a proper 'judging process' has been carried out. The point is, what I think or what you think, what the accuser think and what the accused think does not ( or should not ) matter.
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On June 24 2020 21:28 jessiesc1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:24 jessiesc1 wrote:
Interaction and small taking with Rapid several times over the last 2 years since I am playing Starcraft. No signs of creepiness he was always chill. I would love to see any proof otherwise I don't believe it. You mean like multiple people coming forward with stories that corroborate inappropriate behavior from him? Yes. I want full conversation to know the context.
So... it's pretty much settled then, right? There have already been multiple people coming forward with stories that corroborate inappropriate behavior from him... so then you *do* believe the allegations... why say that you don't believe it?
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On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea.
What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations?
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maybe this debate belongs on another thread
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On June 24 2020 21:39 Anc13nt wrote:
maybe this debate belongs on another thread
Happy to back off from further inquiring about what people are expecting to see when it comes to believing allegations. Was wondering what their specific thresholds were for a burden of proof, but we certainly don't have to travel down that path.
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On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations?
I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd.
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On June 24 2020 21:04 Zealously wrote:
And again, I acknowledge that false accusations could potentially ruin careers. I maintain that it is vanishingly uncommon compared to very real systematic harassment and abuse, and therefore far smaller of a problem
and you maintain that because?.. You can't have known the scale of it all since the claims are only now emerging, let alone the falseness of some of the claims which will lag behind because people will need time to defend themselves and tell their side of the story. So why are you so confident in your assumption?
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On June 24 2020 21:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 21:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:33 fededevi wrote:On June 24 2020 21:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 21:18 fededevi wrote: However, since *real* rape/harassment allegations supposedly outnumber false allegations by at least a factor of ten, one issue is larger and far more systemic than the other. There is a reason one is more common than the other. Because there is the burden of proof for the accuser. What do you think will happen when you remove it? What constitutes meeting the burden of proof for confirming allegations of harassment or assault, in your opinion? I don't know, but usually modern societies have a 3 different separate systems dedicated to this. One defines what is harassment and what is required to 'prove it', one is dedicated to judge each case based on the aforementioned rules and one is dedicated to apply the eventual punishment. I'm just saying using the twitter mob for all 3 processes is not a good idea. What do you mean by "the twitter mob" for assessing (or not assessing) allegations? I meet Rapid in Korea and he is a really nice guy.always ready to help. Always motivated. Is hard for me to believe that all these girls having the exact same coversation via dms and not a single one has proof.Honestly what it looks like to me is some atention seeking. Even the girl that allegates the situation in real life said she casted with him years later.all these stories are odd.
To be fair, people who harass or assault others don't always do it to everybody they meet. They can absolutely come off as "a really nice guy" to most people; not everyone who does odd or unethical or illegal things always comes off as sketchy. Also, it's simply not possible to vouch for someone *not* being a harasser or assaulter, unless you're with them every second of every day (or, at least, can provide some sort of alibi if a specific time and place of said harassment or assault is named).
I would also be careful about accusing a self-proclaimed victim of harassment or assault as "attention-seeking"; it's very well documented that any attention that the victims get are largely negative, and it's extremely risky to even come forwards as an accuser. Positive publicity is extremely, extremely rare for the individual.
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