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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 24 2020 09:13 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:07 AttackZerg wrote:On June 24 2020 08:56 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:54 AttackZerg wrote:On June 24 2020 08:43 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:From the thread on liquid dota but this post: Well people should stop divinding themselves to black white, young, old, man, woman, hemale, shemale or whatever da fak they named themselves. Every life matters, every feeling does too. And if we don't stop the seperation things will get messy. and this: On June 24 2020 08:12 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:01 AttackZerg wrote:
I am glad when victims express themselves and I support it ofc but ... man is that a hard thing to deal with going forward.
"Someone you look up to and respect is hurting people"
That is kind of hard to process. Not as hard as being a victim, but I am definitely watching with beady eyes.
I know this .... abusers unpunished don't change. Even punished ones rarely walk the road to perdition.
I'll reiterate.
If you are hurting people, you are unsafe. Everything you love, everyone who loves you - can be taken in a Thanos snap.
Just a reminder for anyone living in California, there is no statue of limitations on sexual abuse-assault in our state, 30 years or 30 minutes, you have criminal and civil rights here and the largest pro-bono free legal support network in the world. Be heard, Get justice, Burn monsters.
why does the depth of soyboys cultural knowledge begin and end with marvel/harry potter references? is this the only lens through which you can understand the world? Are demonstrative of an overlapping community built around problematic sentiments. Sad to hear specific stories, but they are clearly necessary for some, as despite them many still question the validity/sincerity of what can only be the tip of a much larger iceberg surfacing all over the US and world. I don't think it's news to anyone on TL that sexism and racism (and the harm/abuse that comes with it) is rampant in gaming and beyond, especially in the US. My thought on all this coming to the surface for many people is that individuals don't commit these acts in isolation but as part of a community (or several) and imo it's a community's responsibility to address not only various individuals behavior but the larger cultural and systemic issues that both allow it to happen and for the various actors and enablers to survive/thrive, often at their victims expense. Making it about the drama of accountability and a redemption arc (rather than the substance of it) based on individuals (even if they specifically are why this hits home for you) neglects the underlying issues which perpetuate the situation which produces the reprehensible individual behavior in the first place imo. idk fam i tried my best to bully rapid out of the community, does that protect me? You are so desperate to be a part of the conversation but too much of a coward to say the creepy, hostile nonsense that is bothering you. Keep picking, keep poking - just more noise, just more poorly written nonsense. The way this is written is so quintessentially eastern-european that i'm having a hard time believing you're from the US I gave you the chance to hold my attention and say something meaningful. You doubted ... my citizenship? Yep - that is it, I'm a fake American. I am a Russian shill account aligned with antifa to bring down your naked emperor. Hahaha. I am too old to do anything but laugh. For what it's worth, this whole BLM movement disturbs me a bit. As a Chinese Canadian, the history of Chinese people, and Asians in general, has not been kind. But people don't seem to care about that and only focus on Black history. Is it because we're not outspoken enough and tend to keep to ourselves? What about the indigenous and native people that early white settlers forced off their land and killed? Do they not matter too? They say BLM is a movement in which change needs to occur to end racism. I agree with that. But why are we using BLM? Why isn't it all lives matter? Or something like "end police brutality" or whatever?
This is not a thread for me to talk about this. I am NOT a member of antifa or any other ideology community.
In California, we treated Chinese and Natives-Latino's just as bad as everyone else treated black people, outright slavery and somethings even more cruel.
Chinese Lives Matter. That is a fact. And a sign I've seen in my city.
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On June 24 2020 09:17 Adnapsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside Avilo is allowed to play in ESL cups? News to me, I really don’t think he should be.
Not excusing his terrible conduct with this but the guy really does have serious issues, his fan base getting off to watching a train wreck should be ashamed of themselves. Who are you to speak about this guy? You dont even know his story. What is this website, it seems that u can accuse people for free without consequences. Give me the moderation power and ill delete all these comments lol. There is no sexual harassement in an online game. There is something called internet harassement, its different.
Awh I feel bad for man, awh i really do awh. Sexual harassment didn't happen IN the game awhhhh....man...awh. Also, harassment is harassment (plz try google awhhhhh) Also we all know his story he makes videos of his story (awhhhhh) so plz man try and make a real post when u reply awhhhhhh
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I'm pretty sure this thread isn't about soy, Harry Potter, Polish people under a US account, tofu, BLM or something along those lines. A lot of comments here are just offtopic and really, it looks like you don't care about the issues described by OP. All this thread does right now is to send a bad signal to others that nothing will change.
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On June 24 2020 09:17 Adnapsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside Avilo is allowed to play in ESL cups? News to me, I really don’t think he should be.
Not excusing his terrible conduct with this but the guy really does have serious issues, his fan base getting off to watching a train wreck should be ashamed of themselves. Who are you to speak about this guy? You dont even know his story. What is this website, it seems that u can accuse people for free without consequences. Give me the moderation power and ill delete all these comments lol. There is no sexual harassement in an online game. There is something called internet harassement, its different.
So yeah .... you don't get to make up the definitions and have the rest of us just nod our heads.
If, I send a person an unwanted naked picture - I am both 'internet harrassing' and sexual;y harassing them.
Your definition is wrong and useless. If someone can't be sexually harassed online then they can't have their life threatened online. Same logic. Just wrong.
You question who he is and then you ask for the powers of Odin to delete the conversation.
Everyone is so upset and nobody has been punished. WTF?
Would you rather people just shut up? Anyone you know and love will have the opportunity to respond however they wish.
I am American. The only good thing about my country is that people have a RIGHT to speak. You don't like the speech so it should go away? .... sorry no.
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Canada8987 Posts
On June 24 2020 09:24 SC-Shield wrote:
I'm pretty sure this thread isn't about soy, Harry Potter, Polish people under a US account, tofu, BLM or something along those lines. A lot of comments here are just offtopic and really, it looks like you don't care about the issues described by OP. All this thread does right now is to send a bad signal to others that nothing will change.
Ya I got distracted a little, as for the main topic, thanks for everyone sharing and hopefully everyone else who want will feel safe too.
Like others said, I don't think we should be particularly surprised by this sadly and there's little doubt there has been more off it across the last decade. As for what to do in the SC2 community in particular as online fans I don't really know honestly, (I mean outside of not being obvious ahole) let's at least try be more thoughtful about what we said and who we follow I guess.
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On June 24 2020 09:17 Adnapsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside Avilo is allowed to play in ESL cups? News to me, I really don’t think he should be.
Not excusing his terrible conduct with this but the guy really does have serious issues, his fan base getting off to watching a train wreck should be ashamed of themselves. Who are you to speak about this guy? You dont even know his story. What is this website, it seems that u can accuse people for free without consequences. Give me the moderation power and ill delete all these comments lol. There is no sexual harassement in an online game. There is something called internet harassement, its different.
If you spam nude pictures to someone while they are streaming would you consider that sexual harassment even if its online?
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Northern Ireland23248 Posts
On June 24 2020 09:17 Adnapsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside Avilo is allowed to play in ESL cups? News to me, I really don’t think he should be.
Not excusing his terrible conduct with this but the guy really does have serious issues, his fan base getting off to watching a train wreck should be ashamed of themselves. Who are you to speak about this guy? You dont even know his story. What is this website, it seems that u can accuse people for free without consequences. Give me the moderation power and ill delete all these comments lol. There is no sexual harassement in an online game. There is something called internet harassement, its different.
What? I’ve seen many a strange post on this forum but this is definitely up there.
Being charitable, if you mean that trash talk within games isn’t necessarily indicative of hatred towards groups, but that it’s just an angle of attack, yeah maybe. Griefers with no other information will shit on me for playing Protoss. If they know I’m black, or a woman they’ll attack that. But such people will attack anything they can grasp on to.
That is a mentality that is tolerated in gaming.
On the other hand Avilo engages in extremely problematic behaviour outside of just trash talking in games (read previous posts in this thread alone, never mind the tons of other stuff out there)
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Some of these sound like harassment, but I'm not sure about the ones I read about RAPID. Just sounds like the dude was very confused about how to hit on women. Harassment is when someone goes out of bounds repeatedly despite being told to stop. This just sounds like that Aziz Ansari incident...
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On June 24 2020 09:24 SC-Shield wrote:
I'm pretty sure this thread isn't about soy, Harry Potter, Polish people under a US account, tofu, BLM or something along those lines. A lot of comments here are just offtopic and really, it looks like you don't care about the issues described by OP. All this thread does right now is to send a bad signal to others that nothing will change.
This is on topic,
This is the tactic that has worked in other community. They dump buckets of sludge in earnest conversations to destroy the process.
All of those offtopic things you brought up were the derailing of just two people.
The goal of those types is to ruin the ability for communities to grow or change.
It is a version of astroturfing. Without moderation, nowhere on the internet can have these conversations in good faith anymore. They have had a decade of practice at this point.
I am sorry for taking part, but part of having this conversation is making it clear - who is here in bad faith. They reveal themselves quickly.
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On June 24 2020 09:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
This thread (and the LD one) will serve as demonstration of how sincere people are in wanting to clean up the communities they are part of and what lessons people have learned since 2014 and the gamergate threads. You mean the campaign for ethics in videogame journalism right? What is the LD thread incidentally? But yes, agreed wholeheartedly. Not just outright harassment either but just the weird purity tests women have to pass to be accepted in this community and in other gaming spaces, or the weird behaviour they have to put up with frequently.
Misogyny was a huge part of gamergate but I'm sure there are people that were following the details more closely than myself here
www.liquiddota.com is the other thread I was talking about. I'd say it's probably going to be more toxic than here, but time will tell.
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On June 24 2020 09:41 puppykiller wrote:
Some of these sound like harassment, but I'm not sure about the ones I read about RAPID. Just sounds like the dude was very confused about how to hit on women. Harassment is when someone goes out of bounds repeatedly despite being told to stop. This just sounds like that Aziz Ansari incident...
Well RAPiD was doing it towards teenagers
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Actually after reading more of the posts about RAPID... I think he should have gotten the memo.
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There's a lot of weird mofos in esports and the internet in general, you have to be careful and surround yourself with good ppl. Personally that's why i've never felt comfortable streaming and talking about my life online. There's just something about not knowing who's on the other side of the screen, feels weird.
but ya, some of these stories are horrible to hear and you feel terrible for the victims (especially the ones who are completely powerless).. but having a bit of common sense and ignoring certain types of ppl (we're human after all, you can't like everyone) can help you avoid a lot of these situations
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On June 24 2020 09:41 puppykiller wrote:
Some of these sound like harassment, but I'm not sure about the ones I read about RAPID. Just sounds like the dude was very confused about how to hit on women. Harassment is when someone goes out of bounds repeatedly despite being told to stop. This just sounds like that Aziz Ansari incident...
Don't you think it's odd bringing up your genitals in conversation to women you just meet? He was trying to get sympathy/guilt women into engaging with him I believe too.
In my first meeting with women I have never told them about my genitals.
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Anyway I think there's a generation of men who spent too much time on the internet and had their understanding of women influenced more by porn than any women in their life. This is probably why they are trying to get attention from women by doing stuff that looks like the plot of a shitty porn scene. I was basically raised by the internet and had to learn a lot of these lessons the hard way as well. Gaming is just putting some of these men in the public eye.
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Northern Ireland23248 Posts
On June 24 2020 09:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 09:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 24 2020 09:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
This thread (and the LD one) will serve as demonstration of how sincere people are in wanting to clean up the communities they are part of and what lessons people have learned since 2014 and the gamergate threads. You mean the campaign for ethics in videogame journalism right? What is the LD thread incidentally? But yes, agreed wholeheartedly. Not just outright harassment either but just the weird purity tests women have to pass to be accepted in this community and in other gaming spaces, or the weird behaviour they have to put up with frequently. Misogyny was a huge part of gamergate but I'm sure there are people that were following the details more closely than myself here www.liquiddota.com is the other thread I was talking about. I'd say it's probably going to be more toxic than here, but time will tell.
I was being facetious, ‘it’s about ethics in videogame journalism’ was the retort to charges of misogyny in regards to Gamergate, one I didn’t personally buy coming from a lot of people.
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Northern Ireland23248 Posts
On June 24 2020 09:53 puppykiller wrote:
Anyway I think there's a generation of men who spent too much time on the internet and had their understanding of women influenced more by porn than any women in their life. This is probably why they are trying to get attention from women by doing stuff that looks like the plot of a shitty porn scene. I was basically raised by the internet and had to learn a lot of these lessons the hard way as well. Gaming is just putting some of these men in the public eye.
I know guys like that, good guys just occasionally make faux pas due to to various degrees of social awkwardness or whatever.
With the caveat of assuming the Rapid stuff is true, it sounds like a very calculated approach of faux vulnerability to wean his way and get the guard down with very young women.
I don’t think (assuming these accounts are accurate) he has the excuse of being oblivious or inept or what have you.
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On June 24 2020 09:41 puppykiller wrote:
Some of these sound like harassment, but I'm not sure about the ones I read about RAPID. Just sounds like the dude was very confused about how to hit on women. Harassment is when someone goes out of bounds repeatedly despite being told to stop. This just sounds like that Aziz Ansari incident...
I don't know if you can chalk that up to not knowing or being confused about how to hit on women. Being confused is Rapid using some silly sc2 reference to hit on women even though they have no idea what he's talking about and giving him the "wtf?" look. Rapid using bad meme while casting is being confused. Sexual harassment is Rapid sending underage girls a picture of his genitals while telling them he's getting off. I refuse to believe this is Rapid's thought process, "golly gee, I have no idea how to talk to girls, best send them a picture of my small stalker and ask them to say it's the size of a colossus." He knew what he was doing.
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Hopefully more information comes to light and this is not "swept under the rug." If the acused are guilty of this. We as a community need to come together to support the victims and get rid of these predators. We have to break this chain of what is assumed to be acceptable behavior. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!
I personally will NOT support anyone who victimizes others and would hope TL and the SC2 community doesn't support them either. Please keep this thread updated.
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In my experience, women make it very clear when they are not interested.
Pressuring a girl that doesn't like you, makes you a creeper..... at minimum and a sociopath if you continue despite there feelings.
Men having poor education and lack of socialization is not an excuse to the actions of single individuals.
In my country, Slave rape houses were a thing just over 150 years in my country. Rich 'Cultured' men used these.
Men of all classes, in all cultures have been acting badly towards women for all documented history.
The Greeks had God's who were rapists.
We don't get to blame violence on video games or creepers on porn.
The problem is deep rooted. So much so, that becoming an adult for a lot of men (myself included) is realizing how poorly you have treated women.
A few years ago I ran into a women I knew from elementary school. We talked, had fun, she shared a picture she kept of us together and said,
"Right before this picture, you grabbed my boob".
"What?!"
I was mortified. I do not remember doing it.
I apologized profusely and she seemed to accept it, but she did go out of her way to bring it up to me after over a decade.
It was clearly something that had bothered her for years and .... it was a real moment for me...
I created a long-term memory in another human, with a split second action that didn't even register to me as memorable.
And so that we use the correct language - I groped her, which is both sexual harassment and assault.
And she was my buddy. Never mentioned it all way through high school.
It took her years to confront a friend.
So, yeah, I guess I decided up there to share some personal shit.
(J. Thank you, if it wasn't for you, I would believe my shit don't stink .... when it clearly does. Sorry again.)
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EPT
