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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
This is hardly surprising as a general phenomenon but you can never know the specifics. Everyone who is coming forward, is doing something very important and absolutely necessary if we want to combat this issue. Personally, I'm someone - and I assume a large portion of the Starcraft world is like me in this regard - who has been into the game for a long time and have spent a lot of time and energy on it but has never been intimately involved with the scene around it. People like me can easily end up unknowingly supporting and thus enabling offenders.
Esports in general is a very male dominated world and those tend to be very hostile towards women and, as we can see, young men. People have to deal with enough abuse from strangers on the internet, having it come from people in the scene who they have an actual social relation to makes it all the worse. Competitive Starcraft is fairly niche, and that makes abusers and harassers take up proportionally more of the space if we let them. I hope that people, particularly upon learning about specific cases, will do their best to stop them from doing that.
On June 24 2020 07:19 serendipitous wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 07:17 Bonkarooni wrote:
I really feel like just saying "And the Avilo thing with a few girls" isn't shining a bright enough spotlight on one of the worst, repeat sexual predators in the scene. Literally as of a week ago he was still harassing a girl via twitter (You can go look at his twitter, he is @ing her constantly, latest was June 16th) He had art commissioned of the two of them kissing and pinned it to his twitter feed, which she publicly stated never happened). Yet ESL still allows him to play in their weekly cups. It blows my mind how his antics have never been a huge deal within the community (or at least, if they have, I have missed it) Yeah Avilo's behaviour is too expansive to just be documented in this thread. Not really sure what to do. I'm glad that he's banned from twitch but he's still out there stalking and harassing women and it's awful how many people just don't care or enable him.
I think most people just don't pay attention to avilo at all. Maybe it's different for NA people who play against him and are forced to at least acknowledge his existence... I didn't know he was sexually harassing someone although I can't say I'm shocked. For what it's worth, he always struck me as someone with severe mental issues. That doesn't excuse his actions but it probably goes some way to explain them and I think it can be harmful to hold up some crazy person as the epitome of the problem when most offenders are just regular people who think they can get away with it.
In any case, there is a real issue with online harassment. if someone is dedicated (obsessed is probably more accurate) enough, it can be more or less impossible to stop them. It's not like in real life where you can more easily avoid them and even get a restraining order if necessary. I wish the best for the woman Avilo is harassing, and I hope someone, somehow can bring him to stop it but I fear that will be nigh impossible. I always thought the only people who can realistically make him change his ways are his viewers, collectively, if enough of them stop enabling.
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On June 24 2020 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:From the thread on liquid dota but this post: Show nested quote +Well people should stop divinding themselves to black white, young, old, man, woman, hemale, shemale or whatever da fak they named themselves. Every life matters, every feeling does too. And if we don't stop the seperation things will get messy. and this: Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:12 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:01 AttackZerg wrote:
I am glad when victims express themselves and I support it ofc but ... man is that a hard thing to deal with going forward.
"Someone you look up to and respect is hurting people"
That is kind of hard to process. Not as hard as being a victim, but I am definitely watching with beady eyes.
I know this .... abusers unpunished don't change. Even punished ones rarely walk the road to perdition.
I'll reiterate.
If you are hurting people, you are unsafe. Everything you love, everyone who loves you - can be taken in a Thanos snap.
Just a reminder for anyone living in California, there is no statue of limitations on sexual abuse-assault in our state, 30 years or 30 minutes, you have criminal and civil rights here and the largest pro-bono free legal support network in the world. Be heard, Get justice, Burn monsters.
why does the depth of soyboys cultural knowledge begin and end with marvel/harry potter references? is this the only lens through which you can understand the world? Are demonstrative of an overlapping community built around problematic sentiments. Sad to hear specific stories, but they are clearly necessary for some, as despite them many still question the validity/sincerity of what can only be the tip of a much larger iceberg surfacing all over the US and world. I don't think it's news to anyone on TL that sexism and racism (and the harm/abuse that comes with it) is rampant in gaming and beyond, especially in the US. My thought on all this coming to the surface for many people is that individuals don't commit these acts in isolation but as part of a community (or several) and imo it's a community's responsibility to address not only various individuals behavior but the larger cultural and systemic issues that both allow it to happen and for the various actors and enablers to survive/thrive, often at their victims expense. Making it about the drama of accountability and a redemption arc (rather than the substance of it) based on individuals (even if they specifically are why this hits home for you) neglects the underlying issues which perpetuate the situation which produces the reprehensible individual behavior in the first place imo.
idk fam i tried my best to bully rapid out of the community, does that protect me?
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Nobody cares about sexual harassment or abuse in any other games? Maybe Starcraft Broodwar? This is absolutely disgusting and part of the problem
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On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea.
This. it wouldn't be the first time that fake accusations are being made even in this community. 1 Person saying something bad about someone shouldn't warrant a witch-hunt.
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Kiwian aka TOP was just talking about the OGs house coach on stream. He wants to do a podcast about what happened to Koreans and foreigners during this time.
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On June 24 2020 08:43 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:From the thread on liquid dota but this post: Well people should stop divinding themselves to black white, young, old, man, woman, hemale, shemale or whatever da fak they named themselves. Every life matters, every feeling does too. And if we don't stop the seperation things will get messy. and this: On June 24 2020 08:12 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:01 AttackZerg wrote:
I am glad when victims express themselves and I support it ofc but ... man is that a hard thing to deal with going forward.
"Someone you look up to and respect is hurting people"
That is kind of hard to process. Not as hard as being a victim, but I am definitely watching with beady eyes.
I know this .... abusers unpunished don't change. Even punished ones rarely walk the road to perdition.
I'll reiterate.
If you are hurting people, you are unsafe. Everything you love, everyone who loves you - can be taken in a Thanos snap.
Just a reminder for anyone living in California, there is no statue of limitations on sexual abuse-assault in our state, 30 years or 30 minutes, you have criminal and civil rights here and the largest pro-bono free legal support network in the world. Be heard, Get justice, Burn monsters.
why does the depth of soyboys cultural knowledge begin and end with marvel/harry potter references? is this the only lens through which you can understand the world? Are demonstrative of an overlapping community built around problematic sentiments. Sad to hear specific stories, but they are clearly necessary for some, as despite them many still question the validity/sincerity of what can only be the tip of a much larger iceberg surfacing all over the US and world. I don't think it's news to anyone on TL that sexism and racism (and the harm/abuse that comes with it) is rampant in gaming and beyond, especially in the US. My thought on all this coming to the surface for many people is that individuals don't commit these acts in isolation but as part of a community (or several) and imo it's a community's responsibility to address not only various individuals behavior but the larger cultural and systemic issues that both allow it to happen and for the various actors and enablers to survive/thrive, often at their victims expense. Making it about the drama of accountability and a redemption arc (rather than the substance of it) based on individuals (even if they specifically are why this hits home for you) neglects the underlying issues which perpetuate the situation which produces the reprehensible individual behavior in the first place imo. idk fam i tried my best to bully rapid out of the community, does that protect me?
You are so desperate to be a part of the conversation but too much of a coward to say the creepy, hostile nonsense that is bothering you.
Keep picking, keep poking - just more noise, just more poorly written nonsense.
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On June 24 2020 08:54 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:43 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:From the thread on liquid dota but this post: Well people should stop divinding themselves to black white, young, old, man, woman, hemale, shemale or whatever da fak they named themselves. Every life matters, every feeling does too. And if we don't stop the seperation things will get messy. and this: On June 24 2020 08:12 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:01 AttackZerg wrote:
I am glad when victims express themselves and I support it ofc but ... man is that a hard thing to deal with going forward.
"Someone you look up to and respect is hurting people"
That is kind of hard to process. Not as hard as being a victim, but I am definitely watching with beady eyes.
I know this .... abusers unpunished don't change. Even punished ones rarely walk the road to perdition.
I'll reiterate.
If you are hurting people, you are unsafe. Everything you love, everyone who loves you - can be taken in a Thanos snap.
Just a reminder for anyone living in California, there is no statue of limitations on sexual abuse-assault in our state, 30 years or 30 minutes, you have criminal and civil rights here and the largest pro-bono free legal support network in the world. Be heard, Get justice, Burn monsters.
why does the depth of soyboys cultural knowledge begin and end with marvel/harry potter references? is this the only lens through which you can understand the world? Are demonstrative of an overlapping community built around problematic sentiments. Sad to hear specific stories, but they are clearly necessary for some, as despite them many still question the validity/sincerity of what can only be the tip of a much larger iceberg surfacing all over the US and world. I don't think it's news to anyone on TL that sexism and racism (and the harm/abuse that comes with it) is rampant in gaming and beyond, especially in the US. My thought on all this coming to the surface for many people is that individuals don't commit these acts in isolation but as part of a community (or several) and imo it's a community's responsibility to address not only various individuals behavior but the larger cultural and systemic issues that both allow it to happen and for the various actors and enablers to survive/thrive, often at their victims expense. Making it about the drama of accountability and a redemption arc (rather than the substance of it) based on individuals (even if they specifically are why this hits home for you) neglects the underlying issues which perpetuate the situation which produces the reprehensible individual behavior in the first place imo. idk fam i tried my best to bully rapid out of the community, does that protect me? You are so desperate to be a part of the conversation but too much of a coward to say the creepy, hostile nonsense that is bothering you. Keep picking, keep poking - just more noise, just more poorly written nonsense.
The way this is written is so quintessentially eastern-european that i'm having a hard time believing you're from the US
User was warned for this post
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Canada8990 Posts
I always knew AttackZerg was secretly a Polish Harry Potter fanatic who like to eat tofu while watching marvel movie!
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Northern Ireland27202 Posts
On June 24 2020 08:43 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:From the thread on liquid dota but this post: Well people should stop divinding themselves to black white, young, old, man, woman, hemale, shemale or whatever da fak they named themselves. Every life matters, every feeling does too. And if we don't stop the seperation things will get messy. and this: On June 24 2020 08:12 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:01 AttackZerg wrote:
I am glad when victims express themselves and I support it ofc but ... man is that a hard thing to deal with going forward.
"Someone you look up to and respect is hurting people"
That is kind of hard to process. Not as hard as being a victim, but I am definitely watching with beady eyes.
I know this .... abusers unpunished don't change. Even punished ones rarely walk the road to perdition.
I'll reiterate.
If you are hurting people, you are unsafe. Everything you love, everyone who loves you - can be taken in a Thanos snap.
Just a reminder for anyone living in California, there is no statue of limitations on sexual abuse-assault in our state, 30 years or 30 minutes, you have criminal and civil rights here and the largest pro-bono free legal support network in the world. Be heard, Get justice, Burn monsters.
why does the depth of soyboys cultural knowledge begin and end with marvel/harry potter references? is this the only lens through which you can understand the world? Are demonstrative of an overlapping community built around problematic sentiments. Sad to hear specific stories, but they are clearly necessary for some, as despite them many still question the validity/sincerity of what can only be the tip of a much larger iceberg surfacing all over the US and world. I don't think it's news to anyone on TL that sexism and racism (and the harm/abuse that comes with it) is rampant in gaming and beyond, especially in the US. My thought on all this coming to the surface for many people is that individuals don't commit these acts in isolation but as part of a community (or several) and imo it's a community's responsibility to address not only various individuals behavior but the larger cultural and systemic issues that both allow it to happen and for the various actors and enablers to survive/thrive, often at their victims expense. Making it about the drama of accountability and a redemption arc (rather than the substance of it) based on individuals (even if they specifically are why this hits home for you) neglects the underlying issues which perpetuate the situation which produces the reprehensible individual behavior in the first place imo. idk fam i tried my best to bully rapid out of the community, does that protect me?
You’re being unnecessarily snide on this, beyond the point of desiring some further proof re Rapid and it comes across as incredibly dismissive to what people are saying.
I don’t want to throw the guy under the bus either without proof or corroboration. My guess is that more people will come forward and someone will have logs, but hey it’s just a pure guess based on how these things generally go.
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Can we please stop with the stupid posts about soy, Harry Potter or whatever? This thread is about a serious issue. Thanks.
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Remember that a basic rule of civilized society is innocent until proven guilty. If it's someone's verbal claim against another, more hard evidence has to be provided before coming to a conclusion.
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This is just one side of the story and honestly, these people needs to be given a chance to defend themselves. I'm not saying JP or Rapid didn't do what they're being accused of, but we need to think twice before jumping the gun and ruining someone's life. People are too quick to go witch hunting nowadays because as long as they voice their concern over the Internet, they feel there's no blow back.
HenryG of CS:GO got accused of being a rapist and luckily for him, if he didn't have saved conversations and images, his life would forever be ruined. Unfortunately for him, the damage is done and the woman that accused of being raped will have little to no blow back whatsoever.
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On June 24 2020 08:56 9-BiT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:54 AttackZerg wrote:On June 24 2020 08:43 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:From the thread on liquid dota but this post: Well people should stop divinding themselves to black white, young, old, man, woman, hemale, shemale or whatever da fak they named themselves. Every life matters, every feeling does too. And if we don't stop the seperation things will get messy. and this: On June 24 2020 08:12 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:01 AttackZerg wrote:
I am glad when victims express themselves and I support it ofc but ... man is that a hard thing to deal with going forward.
"Someone you look up to and respect is hurting people"
That is kind of hard to process. Not as hard as being a victim, but I am definitely watching with beady eyes.
I know this .... abusers unpunished don't change. Even punished ones rarely walk the road to perdition.
I'll reiterate.
If you are hurting people, you are unsafe. Everything you love, everyone who loves you - can be taken in a Thanos snap.
Just a reminder for anyone living in California, there is no statue of limitations on sexual abuse-assault in our state, 30 years or 30 minutes, you have criminal and civil rights here and the largest pro-bono free legal support network in the world. Be heard, Get justice, Burn monsters.
why does the depth of soyboys cultural knowledge begin and end with marvel/harry potter references? is this the only lens through which you can understand the world? Are demonstrative of an overlapping community built around problematic sentiments. Sad to hear specific stories, but they are clearly necessary for some, as despite them many still question the validity/sincerity of what can only be the tip of a much larger iceberg surfacing all over the US and world. I don't think it's news to anyone on TL that sexism and racism (and the harm/abuse that comes with it) is rampant in gaming and beyond, especially in the US. My thought on all this coming to the surface for many people is that individuals don't commit these acts in isolation but as part of a community (or several) and imo it's a community's responsibility to address not only various individuals behavior but the larger cultural and systemic issues that both allow it to happen and for the various actors and enablers to survive/thrive, often at their victims expense. Making it about the drama of accountability and a redemption arc (rather than the substance of it) based on individuals (even if they specifically are why this hits home for you) neglects the underlying issues which perpetuate the situation which produces the reprehensible individual behavior in the first place imo. idk fam i tried my best to bully rapid out of the community, does that protect me? You are so desperate to be a part of the conversation but too much of a coward to say the creepy, hostile nonsense that is bothering you. Keep picking, keep poking - just more noise, just more poorly written nonsense. The way this is written is so quintessentially eastern-european that i'm having a hard time believing you're from the US
I gave you the chance to hold my attention and say something meaningful.
You doubted ... my citizenship?
Yep - that is it, I'm a fake American. I am a Russian shill account aligned with antifa to bring down your naked emperor.
Hahaha. I am too old to do anything but laugh.
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On June 24 2020 08:59 Nakajin wrote:
I always knew AttackZerg was secretly a Polish Harry Potter fanatic who like to eat tofu while watching marvel movie!
As an aside, why is liking tofu some kind of sign of weakness to certain people? Can I not enjoy tofu and meat at the same time? Does it have to be one or the other?
Food is food, what the fuck difference does it make what someone enjoys eating? Leave them alone!
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This thread (and the LD one) will serve as demonstration of how sincere people are in wanting to clean up the communities they are part of and what lessons people have learned since 2014 and the gamergate threads.
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On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea.
Rapid is fucked if you're defending him
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On June 24 2020 09:07 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:56 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:54 AttackZerg wrote:On June 24 2020 08:43 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:35 GreenHorizons wrote:From the thread on liquid dota but this post: Well people should stop divinding themselves to black white, young, old, man, woman, hemale, shemale or whatever da fak they named themselves. Every life matters, every feeling does too. And if we don't stop the seperation things will get messy. and this: On June 24 2020 08:12 9-BiT wrote:On June 24 2020 08:01 AttackZerg wrote:
I am glad when victims express themselves and I support it ofc but ... man is that a hard thing to deal with going forward.
"Someone you look up to and respect is hurting people"
That is kind of hard to process. Not as hard as being a victim, but I am definitely watching with beady eyes.
I know this .... abusers unpunished don't change. Even punished ones rarely walk the road to perdition.
I'll reiterate.
If you are hurting people, you are unsafe. Everything you love, everyone who loves you - can be taken in a Thanos snap.
Just a reminder for anyone living in California, there is no statue of limitations on sexual abuse-assault in our state, 30 years or 30 minutes, you have criminal and civil rights here and the largest pro-bono free legal support network in the world. Be heard, Get justice, Burn monsters.
why does the depth of soyboys cultural knowledge begin and end with marvel/harry potter references? is this the only lens through which you can understand the world? Are demonstrative of an overlapping community built around problematic sentiments. Sad to hear specific stories, but they are clearly necessary for some, as despite them many still question the validity/sincerity of what can only be the tip of a much larger iceberg surfacing all over the US and world. I don't think it's news to anyone on TL that sexism and racism (and the harm/abuse that comes with it) is rampant in gaming and beyond, especially in the US. My thought on all this coming to the surface for many people is that individuals don't commit these acts in isolation but as part of a community (or several) and imo it's a community's responsibility to address not only various individuals behavior but the larger cultural and systemic issues that both allow it to happen and for the various actors and enablers to survive/thrive, often at their victims expense. Making it about the drama of accountability and a redemption arc (rather than the substance of it) based on individuals (even if they specifically are why this hits home for you) neglects the underlying issues which perpetuate the situation which produces the reprehensible individual behavior in the first place imo. idk fam i tried my best to bully rapid out of the community, does that protect me? You are so desperate to be a part of the conversation but too much of a coward to say the creepy, hostile nonsense that is bothering you. Keep picking, keep poking - just more noise, just more poorly written nonsense. The way this is written is so quintessentially eastern-european that i'm having a hard time believing you're from the US I gave you the chance to hold my attention and say something meaningful. You doubted ... my citizenship? Yep - that is it, I'm a fake American. I am a Russian shill account aligned with antifa to bring down your naked emperor. Hahaha. I am too old to do anything but laugh.
For what it's worth, this whole BLM movement disturbs me a bit. As a Chinese Canadian, the history of Chinese people, and Asians in general, has not been kind. But people don't seem to care about that and only focus on Black history. Is it because we're not outspoken enough and tend to keep to ourselves? What about the indigenous and native people that early white settlers forced off their land and killed? Do they not matter too?
They say BLM is a movement in which change needs to occur to end racism. I agree with that. But why are we using BLM? Why isn't it all lives matter? Or something like "end police brutality" or whatever?
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Northern Ireland27202 Posts
On June 24 2020 09:09 GreenHorizons wrote:
This thread (and the LD one) will serve as demonstration of how sincere people are in wanting to clean up the communities they are part of and what lessons people have learned since 2014 and the gamergate threads.
You mean the campaign for ethics in videogame journalism right?
What is the LD thread incidentally?
But yes, agreed wholeheartedly. Not just outright harassment either but just the weird purity tests women have to pass to be accepted in this community and in other gaming spaces, or the weird behaviour they have to put up with frequently.
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On June 24 2020 09:12 Dknight wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 08:04 GGzerG wrote:
I'm sorry but it is a little ridiculous to just make allegations about someone with no proof, regardless of whether or not you have a really heart warming / sad and heart wrenching story, there has to be proof or I will not be joining in this hate towards Rapid. I understand how terrible this is that it happened to people, and I feel for the women that it happened to, but a lot of this no offense can be almost the same as people screaming rape with no proof. Again no offense, but I don't think witch hunting with no proof is a good idea. Rapid is fucked if you're defending him
He's done some pretty strange things in the past at least https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189
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On June 24 2020 08:18 Wombat_NI wrote:
As an aside Avilo is allowed to play in ESL cups? News to me, I really don’t think he should be.
Not excusing his terrible conduct with this but the guy really does have serious issues, his fan base getting off to watching a train wreck should be ashamed of themselves.
Who are you to speak about this guy? You dont even know his story. What is this website, it seems that u can accuse people for free without consequences. Give me the moderation power and ill delete all these comments lol.
There is no sexual harassement in an online game. There is something called internet harassement, its different.
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
