Harassment/Abuse in StarCraft 2 - Page 72

On July 14 2020 01:36 Zealously wrote:


I'm curious what you think what the appropriate structures are that we could immediately build as a society in order to assuage the concerns of people that feel or have felt threatened, demeaned, harassed, assaulted or otherwise made to feel unsafe, given that there is a very widespread notion that the existing authorities cannot fulfill their designated function here. You're talking about how many Germans say they feel comfortable expressing personal beliefs in public. How many Germans feel comfortable going to the police, their university staff, their immediate workplace superior, and so forth, to report sexual harassment? I likewise feel it's a problem if people don't feel comfortable expressing their private views in public, but not all private views need to be expressed in public, especially not if they are to the detriment of others. But whatever the percentage is, actual violence/harassment seems like the larger issue of the two. Rape and other sexual crimes are infamously underreported and, perhaps in even greater extent, typically do not result in a satisfactory resolution for the victim. What could possibly create such a system of silence except a feeling of powerlessness over your circumstances?

The state and the judicial system (and authorities generally in this case and in the arguments you have been making) exist to serve and protect individuals. If people (read: usually women) feel they are not seen/heard and that their legitimate grievances are not respected by authorities (read: the authorities have failed), and the only place where they have real power to institute change is by making their stories public, what do you suggest they do? Because, since I'm sure we both agree sexual assault is far too widespread, something obviously needs to change, and there is no large-scale or structural change underway.

On July 15 2020 09:52 tskarzyn wrote:


Your framing assumes we agree it is society's job to assuage every concern or protect people from negative feelings. We already have strong laws and incentives (CYA or get sued) in place to protect women, including laws that curb speech, and both sexual assault and harassment have been on the steady decline for decades. I understand the frustration when a guilty person goes free, but that is inevitable in a justice system based on a presumption of innocence. We could lower the bar for what passes as evidence, but false reports are already far from uncommon and I don't think many people want to live in a world where they could go to jail over accusations alone. I also understand the frustration when someone is made to feel threatened by legal behavior. That's inevitable in a system that values freedom. We could reduce those freedoms, but there are obviously trade-offs.

How, for example, would you propose to curb unsolicited DP's? Or unwanted sexual attention that falls under aggressive flirting? The solution we seem to have arrived at is to publish any accusation, no matter how trivial, to social media in the attempts to bypass the laws and workplace protections already in place and destroy the alleged aggressor's life. That may seem like a great idea in certain situations, but it could quickly devolve into a world where accidentally bumping into a woman at a work event or commenting on a woman's looks becomes grounds for cancellation.

Lastly, I question whether women would even want to live in a culture that takes harassment to zero at the cost of creating a generation of docile and passive men. I've heard loads of women complain about the opposite problem everyone ITT is discussing - their potential partners aren't assertive enough, don't take enough risks, never mix it up romantically, you get the point. This cultural movement isn't just going to kill freedom... pretty sure it's going to kill romance.

On July 15 2020 10:28 JimmiC wrote:
I've yet to read anyone write about people heading to jail because of accusations alone.

Believing all women just means give it the same attention as you would if someone said they were robbed. Take it serious and investigate.

Also, just dont be creepy and flirting is fine. Joke, smile so on. Don't send surprise dick pics, it really isn't that hard. Even if a girl likes you have a better chance of turning her off.with a surprise.dick pic. First dicks are not very attractive second it sends a im only after you for sex message. And if you are use tinder, grinder or what ever and say you are and you can offer before you send them.

People act like it is some complicated formula, it really is not.

On July 15 2020 14:44 Jockmcplop wrote:


Not creepy is good, but try and go back to your school days and think about the people that were labelled 'creepy' or weirdos. Were they all sex offenders in the making? Nah. Probably just people slightly on the spectrum or maybe with some mental issue or learning difficulty.

'Don't be creepy', even in its construction as a sentence entails for some people 'don't be how everyone else sees you'.

This relates specifically to metoo though. There's a certain lack of understanding of mental/learning difficulty issues inherent in the way metoo has played out. No good at reading signals from girls? Sorry, the best solution is to never interact with women any more. You see this daily pretty much in this very thread. People say 'I don't even know how I can go on a date any more without worrying about whether i'll be #metoo'd', and the response is 'Its easy! Just don't be creepy'. Which the people who were called creepy weirdos all through school WILL react to, not in the thread, but in their self esteem. This is how you create sex offenders.

There's a deliberate lack of understanding inherent in that position that verges on ableism.

In fact, 'don't be creepy' might be the one piece of advice that will make the problem sexual harrassment much, much worse, because people who struggle to empathize, or empathize too much, or can't pick up on body language signals or facial cues are labelled creepy and then told not to be. The same people who become sex offenders are probably mocked for their lack of social skills for their entire childhood and driven to a place where they KNOW they have no chance with women because they are told that over and over again.

So what, you think, I have to explain the basics of human interactions to these people because they don't understand metoo and how to interact with women?
Yes is what I'm saying. Do that, maybe for some of these guys they are just being facetious or arguing dishonestly, fine, but for some people they genuinely don't know how to interact with women at all and that lack of knowledge and the inability of society to simply engage as you would a lack of knowledge in any other area drives them to find other ways of seeking sexual satisfaction.

I can almost guarantee that there have been people who brought this up when metoo first happened and were laughed at by everyone and just laughed at or put down when they wonder whether their next date will end in metoo because it isn't clear to them what the social rules are, who go on to commit sexual offences. I can see that road so clearly.

To some people. an awful lot of people, it is a complicated formula, as are most social situations, and responding to those people with 'its easy just stop being creepy' is incredibly harmful.

I'm aware that this is tangential to the thread and i'm sorry for going on yet another 'mental health' rant.

On July 15 2020 14:44 Jockmcplop wrote:


Not creepy is good, but try and go back to your school days and think about the people that were labelled 'creepy' or weirdos. Were they all sex offenders in the making? Nah. Probably just people slightly on the spectrum or maybe with some mental issue or learning difficulty.

'Don't be creepy', even in its construction as a sentence entails for some people 'don't be how everyone else sees you'.

This relates specifically to metoo though. There's a certain lack of understanding of mental/learning difficulty issues inherent in the way metoo has played out. No good at reading signals from girls? Sorry, the best solution is to never interact with women any more. You see this daily pretty much in this very thread. People say 'I don't even know how I can go on a date any more without worrying about whether i'll be #metoo'd', and the response is 'Its easy! Just don't be creepy'. Which the people who were called creepy weirdos all through school WILL react to, not in the thread, but in their self esteem. This is how you create sex offenders.

There's a deliberate lack of understanding inherent in that position that verges on ableism.

In fact, 'don't be creepy' might be the one piece of advice that will make the problem sexual harrassment much, much worse, because people who struggle to empathize, or empathize too much, or can't pick up on body language signals or facial cues are labelled creepy and then told not to be. The same people who become sex offenders are probably mocked for their lack of social skills for their entire childhood and driven to a place where they KNOW they have no chance with women because they are told that over and over again.

So what, you think, I have to explain the basics of human interactions to these people because they don't understand metoo and how to interact with women?
Yes is what I'm saying. Do that, maybe for some of these guys they are just being facetious or arguing dishonestly, fine, but for some people they genuinely don't know how to interact with women at all and that lack of knowledge and the inability of society to simply engage as you would a lack of knowledge in any other area drives them to find other ways of seeking sexual satisfaction.

I can almost guarantee that there have been people who brought this up when metoo first happened and were laughed at by everyone and just laughed at or put down when they wonder whether their next date will end in metoo because it isn't clear to them what the social rules are, who go on to commit sexual offences. I can see that road so clearly.

To some people. an awful lot of people, it is a complicated formula, as are most social situations, and responding to those people with 'its easy just stop being creepy' is incredibly harmful.

I'm aware that this is tangential to the thread and i'm sorry for going on yet another 'mental health' rant.

On July 16 2020 00:19 Wombat_NI wrote:

I’d disagree with that particular paragraph, although agree with the general need to discuss them. I’m slightly generalising based on anecdotal experience in discussing this with friends of the lady variety, generally speaking the women I know who are most vociferously aligned with MeToo tend to be sympathetic to the neurologically atypical, myself included there.

Having a friend with quite severe Aspergers and my friend having a friend similarly inclined, both individuals have occasionally overstepped the mark with women, and it’s generally been resolved OK with a ‘man, that’s not cool you went a bit overboard’ and they’ve moderated future behaviours.

Not everyone has innate social skills, for those within a certain range of the autism spectrum they can still self-correct.

Those more severe again yeah, that’s a tricky area. Volunteered in this area and some clients are just so lacking in social skills that I wouldn’t know what to advise other than ‘it’s exceedingly unlikely you’ll have a romantic partner’. Which of course would be a horrendous thing to say.

In a wider sense there’s the cultural impetus on guy’s to show initiative, and a kind of opprobrium for woman who are forward to some degree too.

Puts a lot of pressure on young men that is hugely amplified if they are lacking innate social skills.

Based on what men tend to say about this and what women I know have to say both parties would prefer the social dance to be a bit more mutual, and I think if this was more widely adopted some problems would indeed be alleviated. Not all of them by any stretch either.

That onus on men to be the initiators so frequently does lead to missteps in those who aren’t very dexterous in that domain.

On July 16 2020 00:40 Jockmcplop wrote:


Yeah I agree with this in particular. I think its important for socially awkward men to come forward with their experiences also, not in a confrontational way, but certainly there's a 'left behind' section of the population in this regard and although it might not amount to alot of people, the reaction to metoo of 'just flirt normally like normal people' is quite an intimidating thing to hear.

The other problem is that its quite taboo for men to talk about their embarrassing failures in a society that still values a certain manliness. Quite often the more awkward men who struggle to flirt normally fail to self correct and develop even more social problems as they get older, and more pressure to get a girlfriend is put on them by society and themselves.

Metoo was a fantastic outlet for women who are abused by our society's sexual conventions, but I don't see an outlet for men who are left out of the entire thing, and we've all seen what happens when that outlet is an unhealthy one (you get incels, and an even worse ideology arises that blames and attacks women, or even worse, this could be a contributing factor to high male suicides).

When I look at rapid's case in particular, clearly he has some issues that are related to toxic attitudes around sex, and i do think those toxic attitudes are as mentally harmful to men as they are to women, its just that men usually don't have to worry about predators.

I don't really know where I'm going with this though but i feel its related to metoo.

On July 16 2020 05:04 gommerthus wrote:
By far the most disturbing thing here, is the default stance of so many posters here. I suspect many of you are adopting this stance because:

You put yourself in the accused shoes. You're more afraid for them than you are, for the victims.

And if you feel this, because it's another guy. Let's really think about that. You can't relate to the women(and men too) who are coming out with these stories, because:

- You can't visualize the situation or put yourself in it. There's no analogue in your life to compare it to, so how could it bother anyone, when it doesn't bother you?
- You just think that treating the situation "like a guy" would, should be the answer. Tell the perpetrator to back off and show some aggression to scare him away. That's a very "guy" way of resolving the issue.
- You simply don't see the problem or consider it so minor that it doesn't matter. There's also nothing in your life that resembles that situation, so how could it be real?

These are the reasons why so many of you immediately go "where's the proof?". But you know also carries a cost that you guys aren't realizing?

That coming out, to accuse someone of inappropriate actions, is not free. There are social consequences for that:

1) People accuse you of being a liar(like some people here?)
2) People don't believe you by default(sound familiar?)
3) People in general back off from you, unfollow you, and generally keep their distance. What if you accuse them, too of the same?

Think again before you just go with the default response of "oh they just want attention that's all". Sure maybe some do. But then look at the accusers who have posted twitlongers and tell me again if you think all these same people are that type.