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the specific timing would depend on what you plan to do with your opening build but the thought behind it would be the same. "i want to/am about to do x. is there something toss is doing that will ruin that plan".
eg. you may plan on getting a triple behind mines and a relatively smaller number of siege tanks. you want to scan toss at this point to see if he has chosen to go the conventional "expand faster than terran" route or increase his gateways to try and bust you.
most of the time your early scans are looking for his gateway number/expansion timings and potential carriers. scans after most tech has gone up and bases are saturated is almost 100% looking for his army on your map. its far easier to use 3-4 scans to have 100% vision uptime on the location of his army than to use vultures and mines to keep yourself updated.
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On April 26 2018 23:19 Golgotha wrote:
I have been practicing TvP and I have two questions.
1. At what point in a TvP do you say, "okay I need scan. Time to add academy."
Sometimes I go so long without it since I feel safe enough with turrets. But I can see how dramatically it helps my game. Knowing where the enemy army is like hacking.
2. With the first two scans, what am I looking for? What tips you off on what the toss is up to so you can react accordingly? In TvZ, you look for Muta timing or lurker bust. Then I know if I need bunker or turrets. In TvP, I see he has robo and many gates, but I feel like that doesn't really change what I am doing. I mean I already have turrets and tanks. I'd like to learn how to better use the info I get from my TvP scans.
Edit: my post count is funny.
1. scans should come pretty early unless you're going for a timing push and you need the money
aca should pretty much always come before 3rd fac
2. first few scans should pretty much always be on gateway count/tech unless you need them for dts. big things to watch out for are dt (sometimes with drop), reavers, or some sort of 2-3base allin with mass gates
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When is it good to reaver switch in PvZ? Like make a few Reavers in the midgame? I'm not talking about Sair-Reaver.
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When zerg switches to lurkerling and you already have a sizeable zeal/goon/temp army. Not really a switch, just add in reavers
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On April 27 2018 04:55 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2018 23:19 Golgotha wrote:
I have been practicing TvP and I have two questions.
1. At what point in a TvP do you say, "okay I need scan. Time to add academy."
Sometimes I go so long without it since I feel safe enough with turrets. But I can see how dramatically it helps my game. Knowing where the enemy army is like hacking.
2. With the first two scans, what am I looking for? What tips you off on what the toss is up to so you can react accordingly? In TvZ, you look for Muta timing or lurker bust. Then I know if I need bunker or turrets. In TvP, I see he has robo and many gates, but I feel like that doesn't really change what I am doing. I mean I already have turrets and tanks. I'd like to learn how to better use the info I get from my TvP scans.
Edit: my post count is funny. 1. scans should come pretty early unless you're going for a timing push and you need the money aca should pretty much always come before 3rd fac 2. first few scans should pretty much always be on gateway count/tech unless you need them for dts. big things to watch out for are dt (sometimes with drop), reavers, or some sort of 2-3base allin with mass gates
Thank Dead and evil. I will start getting them earlier from now on. probably immediately after my natural is safe from goons.
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On April 27 2018 10:20 Alpha-NP- wrote:
When is it good to reaver switch in PvZ? Like make a few Reavers in the midgame? I'm not talking about Sair-Reaver.
when dark swarm cames out, or when you have to brake sunk/lurk positions
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On April 27 2018 10:20 Alpha-NP- wrote:
When is it good to reaver switch in PvZ? Like make a few Reavers in the midgame? I'm not talking about Sair-Reaver.
You gotta make them at your expos and make a robo at the expo. theyre most cost effective there, behind a wall of cannons and pylons the zerg will literally go ape shit trying to bust that and fail. if your shuttle control is really special you can bring them out into the main center with the rest of your army. best to use geography depending on the map, like FS they are good behind the ramps.
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In TvT, when going for 1 fac expand, when do you stop making vultures and focus on tank production? I produce a vulture from my first factory (before the addon) and poke around. How do I know if I should mass vults or go straight into tanks? And what is prioritized? Siege mode or mines?
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Whats the correct worker count for full one base saturation, the number where economic efficiency drops for adding more scvs, if im not intending to be maynarding.
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United States1434 Posts
On April 28 2018 11:55 Sheridan wrote:
In TvT, when going for 1 fac expand, when do you stop making vultures and focus on tank production? I produce a vulture from my first factory (before the addon) and poke around. How do I know if I should mass vults or go straight into tanks? And what is prioritized? Siege mode or mines?
I think you need to angle your questioning from a higher level perspective, so you can properly answer your questions here. I say that because Brood War has no concrete answers, and through its illustrious beauty we have multiple answers on how to play the game. Some given smaller questions cannot have a purpose or answer without a given context to guide its aimlessness.
Take, for example, a person asking about cooking oils. What type of oil should I use? How much oil should I be using? These questions hold no value as a person can't really answer them unless he knows the context the questions are being made under. That is, the person that is asking needs to specify a dish. Are they making deep fried french fries? Salad? Sauteed shallots? Tempura? Fried noodles? Without the dish, the questions lack a sense of purpose in trying to achieve a goal that the answers would help accomplish.
Ultimately, a person is looking to nourish themselves with wholesome, delicious foods to ensure their wellbeing. What dishes are to survival, game plans are to StarCraft. Just as a person has multiple dishes they can choose to feed themselves, StarCraft has multiple game plans and styles you can win with.
So questions like how many vultures you should make before starting tank production are aimless because they don't have a game plan that they work under. There are all sorts of different playstyles that stop vulture production at varying times and decide to mass vults or switch into tanks earlier.
What exactly is the emphasis of your game plan? To give a concrete example, let's say a person wants to focus on establishing early map control through the mobility and mines of vultures to get a contain and/or safely expand to a third.
Go back to one of your questions where you ask when to switch to siege tanks. Generally speaking, a vult heavy player would switch into tanks after getting a lot of vultures to lay down mines and to best make use of vulture upgrades. In a different context where a player wants to build a strong base army for pushing, they'll switch to tanks ASAP, and not even make more than 1 or 2 vultures. Neither game plan is wrong, and both are valid, where the same question can lead to two very different answers.
Your other questions of when you should switch into siege tanks or mass vults and what not starts to veer into a whole different other subject of greater reasoning and decision making. But for now, just focus on establishing what your game plan is first before jumping into anything else. A good starting point is to watch some reps or VODs of players and get a sense of a game plan and game flow.
On April 29 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote:
Whats the correct worker count for full one base saturation, the number where economic efficiency drops for adding more scvs, if im not intending to be maynarding.
3 times the number of minerals. It's the same for all workers. If you have 9 minerals, 27 SCVs is the cap.
Source:  Mining
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I just got my ass handed to me by a player that went mass zealot in a TvP. I didn't realize he was one basing and going mass zealots. I should have scouted his natural timing. Big mistake. Non stop stream of zealots. My tanks got crushed. I had a lot of tanks and hit a good timing but didn't know about his one base strat. I went for speed instead of mines as well. He had fast speed lots.
Against such a move, what is the best approach? Of course mines and heavy vultures. Mass tank did not work. Do I just 2 base and defend until I have mass vultures with a couple tanks to hard counter? I was in a bad position since I was also taking a third. Thanks.
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On April 29 2018 06:05 Ty2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote:
Whats the correct worker count for full one base saturation, the number where economic efficiency drops for adding more scvs, if im not intending to be maynarding. 3 times the number of minerals. It's the same for all workers. If you have 9 minerals, 27 SCVs is the cap. Source: Mining
Your efficiency starts to drop as soon as you have more workers than minerals (or until you can no longer juggle the surplus workers) and then drops until you have 3 per patch. After that additional workers give you absolutely no additional income anymore.
On April 29 2018 14:36 Golgotha wrote:
I just got my ass handed to me by a player that went mass zealot in a TvP. I didn't realize he was one basing and going mass zealots. I should have scouted his natural timing. Big mistake. Non stop stream of zealots. My tanks got crushed. I had a lot of tanks and hit a good timing but didn't know about his one base strat. I went for speed instead of mines as well. He had fast speed lots.
Against such a move, what is the best approach? Of course mines and heavy vultures. Mass tank did not work. Do I just 2 base and defend until I have mass vultures with a couple tanks to hard counter? I was in a bad position since I was also taking a third. Thanks.
You answered your question. Scout his natural repeatedly and if there is none even when you scouted it with a vulture at a later time you turtle hardcore with turrets, a partly wallin in your natural and tanks on the high ground. And you go 4fac before 3rd cc.
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United States1434 Posts
On April 29 2018 16:16 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2018 06:05 Ty2 wrote:On April 29 2018 05:47 Dazed. wrote:
Whats the correct worker count for full one base saturation, the number where economic efficiency drops for adding more scvs, if im not intending to be maynarding. 3 times the number of minerals. It's the same for all workers. If you have 9 minerals, 27 SCVs is the cap. Source: Mining Your efficiency starts to drop as soon as you have more workers than minerals (or until you can no longer juggle the surplus workers) and then drops until you have 3 per patch. After that additional workers give you absolutely no additional income anymore.
yah that's right. I misunderstood the question. Listen to Cryoc, Dazed!
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im getting my butt thrashed in TvP. P has so many more units than me. Unless I have a huge lead from the start, I can almost never push out without getting thrashed. I tried to play a more aggressive Terran instead of going for the regular 3 base 200/200 push. But it feels like I am always behind and Toss steam rolls me if I dare to poke out. My macro with Zerg and Protoss is decent and I don't have trouble in that regard. But in a TvP, my macro feels off? In TvZ, my macro is great and I win most of my TvZs. Kinda lost, gonna go watch Flash tutorial vods and fpvods of TvP. if you can direct me to some good vods or have an idea for me to try, please tell me. At this point, I am willing to try anything that might give me a breakthrough in TvP. I need enlightenment. In PvZ, I had enlightenment when folks here taught me how to crush hydra all ins. I will keep studying for now.
What confuses me is that in TvZ, my macro is solid for my level. I have huge bio balls running around and I hit my cycles well. In TvP, it feels like my army is never big enough to do anything but sit home and wait for ups. is that just how TvP is like for T?
These threads I found are great. It feels good to know that I am not alone and something about TvP makes it my most difficult matchup. I like how Cryoc says it's a world of pain. I am never going to cry tesagi again:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/523369-tvp-help-a-beginner
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/527918-tvp-20-win-rate
I've always respected flash a lot, but even more so after trying TvP. he wiped the floor with bisu in the last season. made terran look OP in that match up.
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-When do protoss typically get leg speed in pvt?
-Off how many gateways do protoss typically expand in pvt?
-How useful is fast storm in pvt?
-How fast do you get observer speed in pvt?
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On April 30 2018 22:43 Golgotha wrote:im getting my butt thrashed in TvP. P has so many more units than me. Unless I have a huge lead from the start, I can almost never push out without getting thrashed. I tried to play a more aggressive Terran instead of going for the regular 3 base 200/200 push. But it feels like I am always behind and Toss steam rolls me if I dare to poke out. My macro with Zerg and Protoss is decent and I don't have trouble in that regard. But in a TvP, my macro feels off? In TvZ, my macro is great and I win most of my TvZs. Kinda lost, gonna go watch Flash tutorial vods and fpvods of TvP. if you can direct me to some good vods or have an idea for me to try, please tell me. At this point, I am willing to try anything that might give me a breakthrough in TvP. I need enlightenment. In PvZ, I had enlightenment when folks here taught me how to crush hydra all ins. I will keep studying for now. What confuses me is that in TvZ, my macro is solid for my level. I have huge bio balls running around and I hit my cycles well. In TvP, it feels like my army is never big enough to do anything but sit home and wait for ups. is that just how TvP is like for T? These threads I found are great. It feels good to know that I am not alone and something about TvP makes it my most difficult matchup. I like how Cryoc says it's a world of pain. I am never going to cry tesagi again: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/523369-tvp-help-a-beginnerhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/527918-tvp-20-win-rateI've always respected flash a lot, but even more so after trying TvP. he wiped the floor with bisu in the last season. made terran look OP in that match up.
Welcome to TvP world. :D
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On April 30 2018 22:43 Golgotha wrote:im getting my butt thrashed in TvP. P has so many more units than me. Unless I have a huge lead from the start, I can almost never push out without getting thrashed. I tried to play a more aggressive Terran instead of going for the regular 3 base 200/200 push. But it feels like I am always behind and Toss steam rolls me if I dare to poke out. My macro with Zerg and Protoss is decent and I don't have trouble in that regard. But in a TvP, my macro feels off? In TvZ, my macro is great and I win most of my TvZs. Kinda lost, gonna go watch Flash tutorial vods and fpvods of TvP. if you can direct me to some good vods or have an idea for me to try, please tell me. At this point, I am willing to try anything that might give me a breakthrough in TvP. I need enlightenment. In PvZ, I had enlightenment when folks here taught me how to crush hydra all ins. I will keep studying for now. What confuses me is that in TvZ, my macro is solid for my level. I have huge bio balls running around and I hit my cycles well. In TvP, it feels like my army is never big enough to do anything but sit home and wait for ups. is that just how TvP is like for T? These threads I found are great. It feels good to know that I am not alone and something about TvP makes it my most difficult matchup. I like how Cryoc says it's a world of pain. I am never going to cry tesagi again: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/523369-tvp-help-a-beginnerhttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/527918-tvp-20-win-rateI've always respected flash a lot, but even more so after trying TvP. he wiped the floor with bisu in the last season. made terran look OP in that match up.
yeah tvp is really hard. playing for lategame is probably the only consistent way to win tvp, but if you're not confident in that i'd recommend learning 2base allins (5fac or 6fac). 2base allins are pretty strong and if you execute cleanly they're pretty hard for p to stop
On May 01 2018 02:33 Dazed. wrote:
-When do protoss typically get leg speed in pvt?
-Off how many gateways do protoss typically expand in pvt?
-How useful is fast storm in pvt?
-How fast do you get observer speed in pvt?
varies but citadel after 4 gates is pretty normal
varies but 1gate nex 3gate 3rd is pretty normal
fast storm generally isn't as useful as arbs. storms are pretty strong though
obs speed comes late. obs vision is more useful but isn't super necessary either
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I saw an ASL5 game where Devourers just melted Wraiths it seemed like. Do mass Devourers win against mass Wraiths usually?
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Norway28522 Posts
devourers beat wraiths by themselves. devourers + mutas completely destroy them.
Devourers have low damage output themselves. However, they make mutalisks both live much longer and deal significantly more damage. Like a mutalisk firing at a wraith fleet with no upgrades for either player deals 9+3+1 = 13 damage. However if the wraith fleet has 9 acid spores, it will instead deal 18+12+10 = 40 damage. And in addition the wraiths end up firing way slower. I haven't tested this specifically, but I think 1 muta will beat 3 wraiths if the wraiths all have 9 acid spores.
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These days I feel like I would like to play against AI again. What is the best/coolest/most fun AI to play right now?
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EPT
