[TvP] 20% Win Rate

On October 23 2017 08:10 00jknight wrote:
Hey there,

According to Starlog.gg I have a 22% win rate in TvP.

On October 25 2017 14:06 oDieN[Siege] wrote:

You can't deny protoss 3rd base if you go siege FE.

On October 24 2017 06:44 Highgamer wrote:


Wait a minute, I don't understand where your problem is?


Jokes aside: You don't need high level pointers really, rather basic stuff is important on your level (so I feel adressed as well).

Your SCV-production was good for the first few minutes, that's a big plus. Everything looked as if you watched/played quite a few games and know basic ideas concerning TvP.


1) Work on your build-order execution. In fact, you didn't really follow a build-order step by step, but you built stuff in aproximately the right order, that's not enough.

Some things to illustrate why this is important:
- Your first depot was on 8/10, but it has to be on 9/10, so your 9/10 SCV was delayed.
- You didn't build the "depot to the right of the rax"-semi-wall that you need to micro against Zealots-rushes.
- You only had 2 guys in the gas and didn't notice it all game... That's a terrible thing to get wrong. As a result,your factory was way too late (on 21/26 supply, should be on 16/18!). You would notice this if you follow an exact build-order by the supply-counts.
- You built 6 marines even though you scouted that he went 1goon into range, expo, 2nd gate. You want to build 4 marines normally, and only add more if he plays very aggressively - or if you plan to move out aggressively (which you didn't do until later).
- You started your tank (late), but not mines in your machine-shop. It was OK in this game but normally you want to research mines while your tank is building, and then get at least two vultures to lay defensive mines outside of your natural, otherwise goon-aggression will kill you (or DTs will). I guess you copied a 3factory-push that you saw somewhere, but that can only work if Protoss goes for a fast 3rd.
- You built an academy at a good time, but you didn't get scan right away. That's a waste of money and opportunity to get valuable intel.

2) You then made the blind 3 factory-push that would get crushed against anything but a fast 3rd nexus (which he did - but which you didn't scout).

- You pushed before scanning or sending out a scouting unit, so you went for a risky push right across the map.
- If Protoss would have been on the same base-count as you, his army could easily be big enough to crush your push, so you have to keep scouting for what he's doing.
- Your units were not in formation, he could have kited/flanked you hard if he had scouted.
- You could have won that game, your army was big enough for a moment, but you lose your marines for nothing in retreat, and you did hardly use your vultures.

When you push so early, then push carefully and in formation. Always keep your whole army close together, not in a line. Marines have to be in front of tanks, vultures on the sides and scouting ahead, laying mines to keep goons away.

He actually went fast 3rd and was just adding gates number 3-6, so there would have been a timing, but because of your bad control he chased you away - and because of your macro-mistakes he would probably have killed you with his next 1-2 rounds of units.

Behind all this, you forgot do place your nexus, your macro slipped, you piled up resources.

3) After your failed push and his attack on your natural, you lose track of your gameplan, I think.
- You stop building SCVs entirely.
- Your factories are not building units most of the time, yet you keep adding factories with bad building placement.
- You 'waste' apm on vultures-harrass when you hardly have enough to macro up your 3 bases.
- You move your few units outside your natural where they're easy prey.
- You take a 4th when you struggle to saturate/control 3 bases.

In this phase, in contrast to the beginning, your play just looks very disorganized, doing stuff left and right, but you should concentrate on core things: SCV-production, unit-production, advancing your tech (this you do), turtleing while buildung up a big push.

Rejoyce though! Playing a good lategame is incredibly hard, it will just take a few hundreds of attempts until you do it right.

Work on points 1) and 2) and read what kogeT wrote about lategame-plans. Play with the mindset to play a long game, not a quick win with your first push.

Work on your mechanics, aka having a good hotkey setup, always using hotkeys instead of mouse-clicks, and overall: playing calmly and efficiently, slowly getting more and more diverse stuff done with less clicks in less time. Your APM (120-140) is not high enough to play 3base Terran efficiently (don't spam APM though, build up good, real APM over time).

On October 30 2017 04:18 00jknight wrote:

Wow! Really appreciate this advice. Youre right that my APM is not quite enough to do very well. I've always had this APM, even when I was high ranked master in SC2. I unfortunetly will never get it higher as I am aging. I just have to be more efficient.


The only thing I ponder is the 2 SCVs on gas. You're right that i should have put 3 SCVs on it of course, but I've been watching high level players and they always start with 2 scvs on it. If you put 3 scvs on gas right way, you dont have enough minerals to make a factory by the time you get 100 gas.

So i think it's 2 scvs on gas, until you take your natural, then 3 scvs on gas.

On October 26 2017 05:54 LastWish wrote:
Maybe try to play a few PvTs instead - that will allow you to see the matchup from the protoss perspective.

On October 31 2017 02:49 orvinreyes wrote:


This is actually good advice, I used to lose to P a lot too, so I tried playing P and ...

On October 31 2017 02:49 orvinreyes wrote:
... won most of my matches vs T, lol. I was tempted to switch race to P permanently but I just like playing as Terran so much so I stuck with it.

On October 30 2017 04:18 00jknight wrote:

Wow! Really appreciate this advice. Youre right that my APM is not quite enough to do very well. I've always had this APM, even when I was high ranked master in SC2. I unfortunetly will never get it higher as I am aging. I just have to be more efficient.


The only thing I ponder is the 2 SCVs on gas. You're right that i should have put 3 SCVs on it of course, but I've been watching high level players and they always start with 2 scvs on it. If you put 3 scvs on gas right way, you dont have enough minerals to make a factory by the time you get 100 gas.

So i think it's 2 scvs on gas, until you take your natural, then 3 scvs on gas.

On October 31 2017 05:19 L_Master wrote:


This really, really isn't true; especially at that APM. If you had 300 or something I would say that could be a possibility. You've got a very low APM, and can obviously go much faster. I'm sure you can easily press keys at a rate of 400-500 per minute if you focus only on that. Your hands aren't limiting you.

It's sort of like starting running later in life. If you just kinda jogged a couple times a week to stay healthy, and ran say 25:00 for 5km when you were in your 20s, but then in your 50s decided to start training for running seriously...you would be able to run MUCH faster than you did in your younger years. The only people getting slower as they get older should be fast progamers, much like an elite runner doing 13:00 for 5km (like a pro with 350apm) would get a bit slower as he got older because they were already at the limits of performance.

Bottom line, you can absolutely get faster. A ton faster. That said, I'm NOT advocating that should be the primary focus of your practice. All else equal being faster is a good thing, but it's rarely the best use of your practice time. Usually you're slower for a reason, which sometimes is as simple as not knowing what all is best to do and having to think for too long about what you should be doing rather than automatic execution.