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TvP is getting better! Playing some PvT helped a bunch. What you do is watch the games where T is very annoying and you do those things in your games. What I find most annoying is a good T that methodically spaces tanks and turrets just right and slowly takes the third. Basically, you make it a death wish scenario if Protoss attacks. So that is what I have been doing and they get frustrated after 10 minutes and try to bust through. If they don't I just wait until I hit 200/200 behind my tank and turret line.
Another thing that has really helped is a simple building guideline before I take my third:
2 facs, engineering bay, 2+ facs, armory, academy, starport, then third.
Sometimes I get the engi bay earlier if I smell DT or fast drop. I get starport so I can do some dropping early. But I would like help to improve my 3rd timing. In what situations do you get the third earlier? Should I get the third after my first 2 facs? I think my third is pretty late since I am playing so safe. What do you see so that you either take the third early or delay it?
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On May 07 2018 15:08 Golgotha wrote:
TvP is getting better! Playing some PvT helped a bunch. What you do is watch the games where T is very annoying and you do those things in your games. What I find most annoying is a good T that methodically spaces tanks and turrets just right and slowly takes the third. Basically, you make it a death wish scenario if Protoss attacks. So that is what I have been doing and they get frustrated after 10 minutes and try to bust through. If they don't I just wait until I hit 200/200 behind my tank and turret line.
Another thing that has really helped is a simple building guideline before I take my third:
2 facs, engineering bay, 2+ facs, armory, academy, starport, then third.
Sometimes I get the engi bay earlier if I smell DT or fast drop. I get starport so I can do some dropping early. But I would like help to improve my 3rd timing. In what situations do you get the third earlier? Should I get the third after my first 2 facs? I think my third is pretty late since I am playing so safe. What do you see so that you either take the third early or delay it?
There is no clear answer. Depends on a map, positions and what your opponent does. So this varies from 2-4 CCs on 1-2 factories to anything like 6 factories before even 3rd.
In general, the more difficult the 3rd (and if it's for example mineral-only), the longer you stay 2 base and more factories you need (and starport often too, for upgrades and harassing potential, as protoss will also have a more exposed 3rd to take). So on maps like Grand Line, Polarish Rhapsody, Gladiator, Moon Glaive (examples from STPL) you tend to need more units before taking a 3rd as it's wide open and difficult to defend. On maps like Outsider, FS its fine to hit your 3rd CC on 1, max 2 factories (unless your opponent goes for a lot of units) etc..
That is of course considering you want to go a fast 3rd rather than fast upgrades or a timing.
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On May 07 2018 16:26 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2018 15:08 Golgotha wrote:
TvP is getting better! Playing some PvT helped a bunch. What you do is watch the games where T is very annoying and you do those things in your games. What I find most annoying is a good T that methodically spaces tanks and turrets just right and slowly takes the third. Basically, you make it a death wish scenario if Protoss attacks. So that is what I have been doing and they get frustrated after 10 minutes and try to bust through. If they don't I just wait until I hit 200/200 behind my tank and turret line.
Another thing that has really helped is a simple building guideline before I take my third:
2 facs, engineering bay, 2+ facs, armory, academy, starport, then third.
Sometimes I get the engi bay earlier if I smell DT or fast drop. I get starport so I can do some dropping early. But I would like help to improve my 3rd timing. In what situations do you get the third earlier? Should I get the third after my first 2 facs? I think my third is pretty late since I am playing so safe. What do you see so that you either take the third early or delay it? There is no clear answer. Depends on a map, positions and what your opponent does. So this varies from 2-4 CCs on 1-2 factories to anything like 6 factories before even 3rd. In general, the more difficult the 3rd (and if it's for example mineral-only), the longer you stay 2 base and more factories you need (and starport often too, for upgrades and harassing potential, as protoss will also have a more exposed 3rd to take). So on maps like Grand Line, Polarish Rhapsody, Gladiator, Moon Glaive (examples from STPL) you tend to need more units before taking a 3rd as it's wide open and difficult to defend. On maps like Outsider, FS its fine to hit your 3rd CC on 1, max 2 factories (unless your opponent goes for a lot of units) etc.. That is of course considering you want to go a fast 3rd rather than fast upgrades or a timing.
Thank you NW.kogeT. So it's okay for me to delay the third as long as I keep producing units and ups and the Toss is on 3 base? It doesn't hurt me if I take my third even after 6 facs? That would be relief to know since I feel like I am playing behind all the time when Toss is on 3 and I'm still stuck on 2. I feel like I am racing against the clock to get that 3rd when the Toss takes his third so easily (can't really stop it either unless I go for 2 base timing).
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Why do Zergs still have a hard time on Sparkle even with the free gas only for Zergs?
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Norway28738 Posts
because corsairs in big numbers dominates zerg air really hard until hive tech, because shuttles are really fast, because reavers are amazing both for attacking and defending on maps where they're never out in the open, because cannons are cheap, versatile defense (especially coupled with corsairs and reavers), because carriers when backed by sairs and cannons are really difficult for zerg to handle on an island map. Then we haven't even touched maelstrom or storm - both absolutely amazing against clumped, zerg air. Protoss has a whole shitload of tools to work with pvz island.
Zerg does not struggle at all against terran.
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About the 5rax +1
Has this been successfully countered? Nowadays when I do this an move out with the initial force of about 12-16 marines and 3 medics, I get completely smashed by mutalings.
I know what you're thinking, that I should get a bigger force before roaming the map, or even throw in a firebat or two, but by that time, the zerg has their 3rd secured with lurkers.
What gives? And how have other Terrans been dealing with this?
Not to mention that the hive has gotten so fast whenever I tend to do 5rax +1
Advice? Suggestions?
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i wouldn't call it solved but zergs have definitely been getting better at dealing with 5rax +1
killing the 3rd puts you in an extremely advantageous position, it shouldn't usually happen unless zerg screws up
you should not be moving out far with your initial group of mnm until you have a large group (like 24+). you should have 20~24ish at 7:00 when you move out
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What is the reason one-base strategies are rarely used by Protoss against Zerg on a standard map like Fighting Spirit?
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why play on one base when you can get a 2nd base for free?
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bump!
+ Show Spoiler +Thank you NW.kogeT. So it's okay for me to delay the third as long as I keep producing units and ups and the Toss is on 3 base? It doesn't hurt me if I take my third even after 6 facs? That would be relief to know since I feel like I am playing behind all the time when Toss is on 3 and I'm still stuck on 2. I feel like I am racing against the clock to get that 3rd when the Toss takes his third so easily (can't really stop it either unless I go for 2 base timing).
I also have a new question about TvP. It's about army control while IN your base. I noticed that some players like flash will not siege everything, but have a control group of units either in his main or going back and forth between 2nd and third. He will only siege some stuff but have a mobile army that can be rushed to emergencies. Is this something that you do, how has it worked out for you? I can see myself using this but getting caught with my pants down from time to time. not sure what method I should use. Currently, I siege everything and space my units evenly. it kinda takes longer to take my third, but it's very safe.
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On May 08 2018 16:06 Golgotha wrote:bump! + Show Spoiler +Thank you NW.kogeT. So it's okay for me to delay the third as long as I keep producing units and ups and the Toss is on 3 base? It doesn't hurt me if I take my third even after 6 facs? That would be relief to know since I feel like I am playing behind all the time when Toss is on 3 and I'm still stuck on 2. I feel like I am racing against the clock to get that 3rd when the Toss takes his third so easily (can't really stop it either unless I go for 2 base timing). I also have a new question about TvP. It's about army control while IN your base. I noticed that some players like flash will not siege everything, but have a control group of units either in his main or going back and forth between 2nd and third. He will only siege some stuff but have a mobile army that can be rushed to emergencies. Is this something that you do, how has it worked out for you? I can see myself using this but getting caught with my pants down from time to time. not sure what method I should use. Currently, I siege everything and space my units evenly. it kinda takes longer to take my third, but it's very safe.
its not that its ok to keep delaying your 3rd, its just that as a general rule of thumb, its normal to be a base behind toss. obviously if the game is 20mins in and you dont have a 3rd base its not ok to delay it. you gotta keep things relative to your game. in pvt its toss that is racing against the clock, not terran. toss needs to get a lot of things done before a certain timing otherwise he'll get rolled by a 200/200 terran army. toss does typically have priority over what happens in the game until this time, and its up to terran to respond well until he hits critical mass, but the clock is against toss.
as for your army movement, you should always try and keep your army mobile. a static army is bad for multiple reasons:
1. a good player will see your static army and realise he is against an unskilled opponent -> proceeds to greed because he knows he can cut corners.
2. your static army shows lack of intent of wanting to control the map. youre literally just waiting to see if toss does anything, and if he doesnt its pretty much rpg mode until you get the army you want. again, toss can see this and greed.
3. your static army doesnt react well to surprise engagements. an evenly spaced tank line from your nat to 3rd is far too thin, and an army collapsing on you from one side will set you back a lot. theres other things like recall that will just completely destroy you also. even if you set your army up perfectly, no movement = no pressure on toss to react to you. he can just place observers around you and figure out exactly how he wants to engage on you or play around you.
getting caught out while your tanks arent sieged, mines arent placed etc is related to another question you asked previously (scan usage).
you need to control the map so that you can get appropriate vision around places with mines, monitor his army movement and force him to respect the fact that you could engage on him if he positions his army poorly or plays too greedily. your scans from the mid game should also tell you where his army is so that youre not caught with your pants down.
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3base toss is a bit ahead of 2base terran, you want to take your 3rd soon after toss or you'll fall behind
tank positioning is pretty map dependent, on fs for example you can hold the 3rd with a very small number of units, whereas on cb you need need a line of tanks between your bridge and 3rd and a pile of mines on the bridge/high ground
sieged/unsieged doesn't really matter, so long as everything is set up somewhat properly. there's a timing when your 3rd goes up where you have to be careful but outside of that P attacking into your nat/3rd should be suicide
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Been hearing and reading often that the maps for ASL5 are meant to "kill terrans". In what way are they unfavored for terran or how are they favored for Protoss? specifically in which maps and in what ways?
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it's more that the maps are very protoss favored. ASL5 might have the most protoss-favored map pool of all time. P doesn't have a single bad matchup on any of the maps in the pool
sparkle, transistor, 3rd world are all extremely protoss favored in at least one matchup (p>>z, p>>t, p>>z specifically)
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On May 09 2018 04:22 Dead9 wrote:
it's more that the maps are very protoss favored. ASL5 might have the most protoss-favored map pool of all time. P doesn't have a single bad matchup on any of the maps in the pool
sparkle, transistor, 3rd world are all extremely protoss favored in at least one matchup (p>>z, p>>t, p>>z specifically)
I wanted to know in what specific ways are the maps protoss favored. For example 3rd world, from what I can theorize Protoss can attack Terran's natural because of the big remote area around the natural. But Fighting Spirit also has that big area around the natural for carrierrs right? I wanted to understand what map advantages do Protoss players exploit to gain an unfair advantage (because of how the maps dictate the matchup 
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3rd world is fine in pvt. slight advantage to p but it's not bad
sparkle, 3rd world are both p>>z because zerg can't contest protoss air on island and semi-island maps
transistor is p>>t because it's very difficult to push across the map. the nat positioning and long ground distance makes reavers/carriers really strong
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thank you for explaining that it's toss that is racing against the clock. that's a much better mindset when I play. And as long as I am just 1 base behind, I should be okay. but I should push my advantage and take my third as soon as possible to hit 200 faster. got it.
1. as for army positioning while I wait for 200/200, I am always trying to be mobile and keep my vultures moving around. my question was more about defending 3 bases with my tanks. Some players have a huge tank line that slowly creeps forward with turrets. pushing the goons in front of your base further back until you can take your third. I feel like that is a good strategy because it gives you map control of your three bases and the toss cannot control your front.
But it's a bit slow and kinda dangerous since the line thins out the further you go out from your 2nd. that's why I've been thinking of a having unsieged tanks moving between my three bases. it's kinda what flash does. He has very few tanks on his third due to sim city, and only a couple sieged tanks in his 2nd. most of this tanks are unsieged and he moves them around. what do you prefer?
2. Since my starport timing is a bit early and I like to focus on upgrades, I have the opportunity to get science vessel long before I hit 200/200. is it still worthwhile to make some? or am I slowing down my build by getting them too early? Thank you.
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it depends on the game but there are a lot of times when you can take your 3rd pretty much for free. if toss is looking to just dominate expos asap before you get big, he wont be looking to contest you at all.
otherwise on fs its very common to take your 3rd closer to toss, not away from him. get a decent army size and push towards him whilst taking your 3rd. you dont have to worry then about going back and forth between nat and 3rd etc because everything is in 1 direction for you.
i think youre too cautious about toss collapsing on you while youre unsieged. if toss doesnt have speedlots and a decent sized army he wont be able to engage you that easily even if you are slightly unprepared. if you watch flash a lot youll see that a lot of his early game skirmishes doesnt even involve his entire tank line sieging up. he just a clicks (exaggerating a bit here, obviously theres some micro) towards where he wants to go and sieges 2-3 tanks in range a long the way, unsieges when protoss backs and then sieges 2-3 other tanks that are in range again etc.
unsieged tanks still hurt lol.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On May 09 2018 13:27 Golgotha wrote:
thank you for explaining that it's toss that is racing against the clock. that's a much better mindset when I play. And as long as I am just 1 base behind, I should be okay. but I should push my advantage and take my third as soon as possible to hit 200 faster. got it.
1. as for army positioning while I wait for 200/200, I am always trying to be mobile and keep my vultures moving around. my question was more about defending 3 bases with my tanks. Some players have a huge tank line that slowly creeps forward with turrets. pushing the goons in front of your base further back until you can take your third. I feel like that is a good strategy because it gives you map control of your three bases and the toss cannot control your front.
But it's a bit slow and kinda dangerous since the line thins out the further you go out from your 2nd. that's why I've been thinking of a having unsieged tanks moving between my three bases. it's kinda what flash does. He has very few tanks on his third due to sim city, and only a couple sieged tanks in his 2nd. most of this tanks are unsieged and he moves them around. what do you prefer?
2. Since my starport timing is a bit early and I like to focus on upgrades, I have the opportunity to get science vessel long before I hit 200/200. is it still worthwhile to make some? or should I am I slowing down my build by getting them too early? Thank you.
Vessels are cool, you can snipe observers with them and dmatrix can be a powerful defensive tool in smaller early engagements with a commited protoss. Added value to smaller numbers of already cost-effective units such as tanks.
I have more trouble defending my third with two facs since even with my vultures out on the map, the protoss is (at such low level)sometimes content to lose some probes in his third and commit to destroying/delaying my own third as much as possible. I have pretty poor micro and trade tanks very unfavourably. I've been forced to regularly take a third behind 4 facs because of this.
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oh yeah i forgot about the vessels question.
its very normal to have vessels before you hit 200/200. unless youre getting like 3+ vessels asap, dont worry about spending money on them. 1 or 2 is fine and in many scenarios a requirement if youre turtling and you want to block recalls.
if you push before 200/200 you will want vessels then also, for observer sniping and invis detection for protoss arbiters. even better if you have emp upgraded on top of that
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EPT
