On May 15 2018 05:08 Dazed. wrote: How has pvt philosophy changed over the course of 2000 to 2018? Are there any older styles/builds/insights to be gleaned from 'out dated' pvt of the past?
People didn't used to know how to play pvt in 2000. 2 gate zealot was common by Kingdom and people like that. reaver drop with zealots was invented in around 2003-2004 i think, and 10/15 gate and fast double nexus, 2 gate obs, 3 base toss vs 2 base t, 4 base toss vs 3 base t, became the standard through 2010 or so. Macro toss with arbiters, 1-2 base ahead of terran at all times, and arbiter with stasis, 3/3 upgrades, thats the only accepted way to win vs toss in late game. Early game dt, reaver, zealot/shuttle bulldog was used by many people but if you can't do any damage with it, its possible to die to terran 2/1 timing push invented in 2006-7 by flash. In summary the matchup has changed alot, toss has many natural weapons to use in the matchup but terran generally held the winning edge over time due to low # of korean toss bonjwas.
On May 14 2018 21:01 Golgotha wrote: I want to take my game to the next level. I want to know how to use scvs to kill or block lings/zeals from reaching my marines. If I use attack move, they do absolutely nothing and just sit there. It seems like I have to right click on each ling and zealot for the scvs to do their thing.
What you guys do when you are getting ling/zeal rushed and you don't have enough rines yet. You got one and there's 6 lings. Or you got one and there is 1 zealot. What I do is have my marine attack and stick like 5 scvs on the enemy. But this does not always work since the lings just filter past and kill my marine. So what's the best way? I need advice on this. I got the late game down and now I'm working backwards to fix my early early game =)
Im still looking for advice on this question and I have new questions.
In TvP, other than hiding my starport outside my base what do you guys do to hide the fact that you are going drops. I was thinking of building my starport near a turret so the obs can't see what I do with the starport. But this is not efficient since the obs can just go around. Any ideas on what I can do?
My final question is about spotting observers. If the obs stays still, there is no way to see it unless I move under it? What if the obs is above one of my buildings? I really hate the idea of an obs watching me in my base. ^^
On May 14 2018 21:01 Golgotha wrote: I want to take my game to the next level. I want to know how to use scvs to kill or block lings/zeals from reaching my marines. If I use attack move, they do absolutely nothing and just sit there. It seems like I have to right click on each ling and zealot for the scvs to do their thing.
What you guys do when you are getting ling/zeal rushed and you don't have enough rines yet. You got one and there's 6 lings. Or you got one and there is 1 zealot. What I do is have my marine attack and stick like 5 scvs on the enemy. But this does not always work since the lings just filter past and kill my marine. So what's the best way? I need advice on this. I got the late game down and now I'm working backwards to fix my early early game =)
Im still looking for advice on this question and I have new questions.
In TvP, other than hiding my starport outside my base what do you guys do to hide the fact that you are going drops. I was thinking of building my starport near a turret so the obs can't see what I do with the starport. But this is not efficient since the obs can just go around. Any ideas on what I can do?
My final question is about spotting observers. If the obs stays still, there is no way to see it unless I move under it? What if the obs is above one of my buildings? I really hate the idea of an obs watching me in my base. ^^
workers have bad attacking ai. you will pretty much never get all your workers efficiently attacking. the best you can do is move them manually to melee range and then issue a rightclick or attack command. when you micro a single marine it depends on your simcity. 1 zealot is very easy to handle even with only 1 marine if you have the correct barracks/depot position. the problem is the followup zealots. focus on controlling your marine and control your scvs as your 2nd priority. theres not much more advice anyone can give here because its so dependent on the player having the raw physical ability. some people i know will NEVER get this part because they just arent quick enough.
as for the starport, build it on one of the sides/corners of your base. get a turret or two around the perimeter of your base closest to your starport or to the direction of your enemy. you can go for a full perimeter of turrets but thats a pretty big investment. usually you just need to delay the observer long enough so that even if he does find out your dropship is already on the way or something and he has less time to react. as for observers already in your base, usually an observer in your base sits on top of your factories. throw a scan there and problem solved.
On May 14 2018 21:01 Golgotha wrote: I want to take my game to the next level. I want to know how to use scvs to kill or block lings/zeals from reaching my marines. If I use attack move, they do absolutely nothing and just sit there. It seems like I have to right click on each ling and zealot for the scvs to do their thing.
What you guys do when you are getting ling/zeal rushed and you don't have enough rines yet. You got one and there's 6 lings. Or you got one and there is 1 zealot. What I do is have my marine attack and stick like 5 scvs on the enemy. But this does not always work since the lings just filter past and kill my marine. So what's the best way? I need advice on this. I got the late game down and now I'm working backwards to fix my early early game =)
Im still looking for advice on this question and I have new questions.
In TvP, other than hiding my starport outside my base what do you guys do to hide the fact that you are going drops. I was thinking of building my starport near a turret so the obs can't see what I do with the starport. But this is not efficient since the obs can just go around. Any ideas on what I can do?
My final question is about spotting observers. If the obs stays still, there is no way to see it unless I move under it? What if the obs is above one of my buildings? I really hate the idea of an obs watching me in my base. ^^
workers have bad attacking ai. you will pretty much never get all your workers efficiently attacking. the best you can do is move them manually to melee range and then issue a rightclick or attack command. when you micro a single marine it depends on your simcity. 1 zealot is very easy to handle even with only 1 marine if you have the correct barracks/depot position. the problem is the followup zealots. focus on controlling your marine and control your scvs as your 2nd priority. theres not much more advice anyone can give here because its so dependent on the player having the raw physical ability. some people i know will NEVER get this part because they just arent quick enough.
as for the starport, build it on one of the sides/corners of your base. get a turret or two around the perimeter of your base closest to your starport or to the direction of your enemy. you can go for a full perimeter of turrets but thats a pretty big investment. usually you just need to delay the observer long enough so that even if he does find out your dropship is already on the way or something and he has less time to react. as for observers already in your base, usually an observer in your base sits on top of your factories. throw a scan there and problem solved.
Damn. Perhaps I am one of those players who will never get that part. but that part is so essential to winning games, a fifth of my games depend on it. I will focus on sim city and keeping the marine alive. the thing about worker ai is that even if I manually right click, the worker will literally stop to attack and not stick on the zealot or zergling. so it means constantly microing the worker, while microing the marine. i can't do this, so I mostly abuse sim city to win.
so an obs that standing still over my base, there is literally no way to see it with your eye unless it moves? I know that there is a blur when they move, but there's no trick to seeing it when it's still?
yeah a worker wont chase an opponent properly after it attacks. they stand still for a bit too long so you have to manually move, attack, move, attack etc. ideally you should be bringing your scvs in front of your marines to form a wall so that the scvs dont have to chase a zealot trying to go past the wall. this still needs a lot of apm on both the marine and the scvs as you gotta change direction and make sure theres no space between units etc.
and no theres no way to find an invisible unit thats standing still without detection. thats why commentators jizz when flash uses star sense to scan an idle observer.
On May 15 2018 19:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: yeah a worker wont chase an opponent properly after it attacks. they stand still for a bit too long so you have to manually move, attack, move, attack etc. ideally you should be bringing your scvs in front of your marines to form a wall so that the scvs dont have to chase a zealot trying to go past the wall. this still needs a lot of apm on both the marine and the scvs as you gotta change direction and make sure theres no space between units etc.
and no theres no way to find an invisible unit thats standing still without detection. thats why commentators jizz when flash uses star sense to scan an idle observer.
Thank you, that's really interesting. I always thought there's a slight distortion around invisible units even when they're not moving and producing the characteristic ripples. It's another matter entirely if anyone playing a moderate-level game, trying to optimise macro and scout and use good defensive positions should ever invest time, e.g. lower their effective APM, to look for static observers.
marine vs zealot usually comes down to simcity. it's easiest to just wall off and not have to think about it, or sim city well enough that the micro is really easy. on open ground attackmove everything and peel whatever gets targeted
marine scv vs zergling keep ur marines in the scvs and use the scvs to supplement marine damage. run marines into an scv drill and and attack move everything, it doesn't really take that much micro. if Z fights you in the middle of your scv ball they should lose
here's an example:
fast port relies on port timing. siege FE 2 tank fac cc port hits the P base when the observer reaches yours. siege FE 1 tank fac cc port hits the P base a bit after obs spawn. i'm not sure on the timing of cc fac port, the 1 tank 2 vult variant probably hits at a similar timing to 1 tank fac cc port
On May 15 2018 19:26 evilfatsh1t wrote: yeah a worker wont chase an opponent properly after it attacks. they stand still for a bit too long so you have to manually move, attack, move, attack etc. ideally you should be bringing your scvs in front of your marines to form a wall so that the scvs dont have to chase a zealot trying to go past the wall. this still needs a lot of apm on both the marine and the scvs as you gotta change direction and make sure theres no space between units etc.
and no theres no way to find an invisible unit thats standing still without detection. thats why commentators jizz when flash uses star sense to scan an idle observer.
Thank you, that's really interesting. I always thought there's a slight distortion around invisible units even when they're not moving and producing the characteristic ripples. It's another matter entirely if anyone playing a moderate-level game, trying to optimise macro and scout and use good defensive positions should ever invest time, e.g. lower their effective APM, to look for static observers.
There always is a distortion, but if the ground is very uniform, you obviously can't see that.
On May 15 2018 22:56 Golgotha wrote: Is there a UMS map that focuses on marine and worker micro vs lings or zealots?
개인랜덤컨트롤 개인언덕막기 these 2 maps are just micro maps and you occasionally get an scv marine combination. you cant play the maps alone though. you need another player in the game
On May 15 2018 22:56 Golgotha wrote: Is there a UMS map that focuses on marine and worker micro vs lings or zealots?
The best way to learn these things is to find a buddy, doesn't have to be A rank, and ask him/her to practice the situation you're having a hard time with over and over again for half an hour or so. Just ask him/her to do 2gate zeal rush or 4/5/whatever pool again and again. Or alternatively just both mass some marines or zeals/lings, build your rax-depot-sim city or put your marines+SCVs on top of the ramp and then have him/her come with 1/2/3 zealots or 6/8/10 lings again and again.
You will find out that you can't even succeed every time, but the 50/60/70% of times you do will give you the confidence on ladder, and you won't be so frustrated if you lose because you know where and why you went wrong and that you could have done better.
It's strange, I tend to flee this kind of practice myself, rather losing - as you wrote - a good portion of my ladder games in which these situations occur only from time to time... but when I brought myself to do it, I learned that you can really save yourself a lot of frustration and time by just going for a few focussed lessons.
Question: I've been going 10-10-10 in most of my TvPs but I feel like this a bit gimmicky. I'd like to focus strictly on macro. Is a rax expand build a standard build I should practice or is that too greedy? I know siege expand is better on some maps, but I was wondering if I could open rax FE consistently on ladder. I'll have to do some bunker repairing of course.
On May 17 2018 13:47 evilfatsh1t wrote: rax fe is standard on fs. or was since i dont follow the current scene much
When you go rax fe, is the build order 16 CC, supply, then bunker, and then gas? I make 4 marines of course. But what if the probe steals the gas in my main? Do I have scvs destroy the gas or do I just take the gas in my natural and have 6 scvs mine from it earlier on? one thing I hate about rax fe is that the probe usually steals the gas to delay my tanks.
I wouldn't say any build is standard on FS. Most people probably do a one factory build with a quick expo (FD, siege expo), but 1rax expo is probably the next common option.
Siege expo is very safe against early pressure if you can wall off like on FS, but its downsides are a lack of scouting if your scouting SCV dies combined with a possible long delay on your expo if P goes for strong goon pressure (eventually sniping your 1-2 tanks and stuff) which he/she can follow up with a double expand while you're in the dark. Also against tech builds you're left with only 2-3 tanks against shuttle-drops/DTs/reavers which can be tricky to handle.
1rax expo is a great economic, slim opening with very flexible follow up (ranging from 3rd CC on 1fact to 4/5/6 fact push and anything in between), but you will have to learn exactly what to do against probe harrass, zealot harrass, gas steal, goon pressure, aggressive tech. Can be pretty hard to defend with only marines/SCVs streched out between main and natural so early, or in the next stage with only 1-2 tanks. Good rax+depot placement is very important with this one, too.
edit: You don't consider learning FD? It's quite safe once you learn to defend early zealots and learn to drive back the initial goons, with the option of dealing considerable damage to greedy Ps with your little 4rine/tank/vults/mines-push. Opens the map for you, vultures can scout.
When you go rax fe, is the build order 16 CC, supply, then bunker, and then gas? I make 4 marines of course. But what if the probe steals the gas in my main? Do I have scvs destroy the gas or do I just take the gas in my natural and have 6 scvs mine from it earlier on? one thing I hate about rax fe is that the probe usually steals the gas to delay my tanks.
Bunker you don't need before depot/gas. Even if a zealot shows up he'll just walk past the bunker anyway (unless it's really tight and/or you SCV-block like a god). And you want to delay building all 4 marines if possible. 1-2 are enough at first. You can sometimes even fill up the bunker while goons are already shooting at it (at your own risk ofc). As soon as several goons show up, always have enough SCVs ready to block them from running past the bunker. If one zealot comes early and gets into the main, while you're fighting it, also consider that the follow-up goon might just try to slip past the bunker you built in the meantime.
Afaik the greediest option is 15 CC (before marine), 16 depot, 17 gas or something. Safer is to start marine, CC on 16, depot, gas. The earlier the gas, the faster the factory, the faster siege mode.
You can decide if you want to avoid the gas steal by skipping/delaying an SCV and/or starting the refinery before the depot, pull the SCV of the refinery and continue constructing it after you started the depot. If you can drive out the probe with your marine, you can have SCVs destroy the Assimilator (if P let's it finish) or you do the natural-gas-thing if the probe is still there and might steal the main-gas again.
When you go rax fe, is the build order 16 CC, supply, then bunker, and then gas? I make 4 marines of course. But what if the probe steals the gas in my main? Do I have scvs destroy the gas or do I just take the gas in my natural and have 6 scvs mine from it earlier on? one thing I hate about rax fe is that the probe usually steals the gas to delay my tanks.
Bunker you don't need before depot/gas. Even if a zealot shows up he'll just walk past the bunker anyway (unless it's really tight and/or you SCV-block like a god). And you want to delay building all 4 marines if possible. 1-2 are enough at first. You can sometimes even fill up the bunker while goons are already shooting at it (at your own risk ofc). As soon as several goons show up, always have enough SCVs ready to block them from running past the bunker. If one zealot comes early and gets into the main, while you're fighting it, also consider that the follow-up goon might just try to slip past the bunker you built in the meantime.
Afaik the greediest option is 15 CC (before marine), 16 depot, 17 gas or something. Safer is to start marine, CC on 16, depot, gas. The earlier the gas, the faster the factory, the faster siege mode.
You can decide if you want to avoid the gas steal by skipping/delaying an SCV and/or starting the refinery before the depot, pull the SCV of the refinery and continue constructing it after you started the depot. If you can drive out the probe with your marine, you can have SCVs destroy the Assimilator (if P let's it finish) or you do the natural-gas-thing if the probe is still there and might steal the main-gas again.
thanks for the great advice on the two builds. yeah, the rax fe is a bit harrowing because toss will do his darnedest to punish it. I will take your advice about the marines and bunker and delay them as much as possible.
1. When facing carriers, is there a point where they reach a critical mass and it will become hellish to beat them? I feel like I need to act fast whenever I scout a toss going carriers. Otherwise they balloon out of control and I get picked off. So how do I react when I am far ahead and he is massing carriers and I see it late? Turret up and keep my army intact or go and take out a base and have his carriers chase me? But if I do this, I usually lose all my tanks and vultures even though I can knock out a base or two. Not sure if it's worth it.
2. In TvP how do you know when you should move out before 200? Usually I wait for 170ish with 1-2 upgrades, but I'd like to learn more about the match up to be able to take advantage. What if I'm on 3 base already and I see that the toss is taking a third around the same time? Can't I go in for the kill? But it seems like toss is always in a strong position with lots of units even when they take a base. So I'm not sure when they are "weak". I mean it's kinda infuriating when I'm just on 3 base and I see toss taking a fourth with tons of gateways and I can't do anything about it until max. Is that just how it is or are there some cues that allow me to move out faster? I know that this also has to do with my build, so I'd like to hear as much as I can about this match up. I watched the day9 TvP videos and they were very helpful. But the info is a bit general since he is painting a broad picture in such a short amount of time.
edit: doing research on how to fight carriers I ran into this game in 2013 of Mind vs Shuttle. Shuttle has his carrier fleet intact and Mind has 1 mineral left at the end. Mind only has like 7 goliaths left and is down to 29 supply. But Mind wins because Shuttle ran out of minerals to make more interceptors. Crazy good game!
When attacking and killing interceptors, is it important to always move attack, move attack with your goliaths? I usually just let my goliaths fire by themselves, but watching mind I see that he always controls his golaiths even when just killing interceptors.
Could anyone teach me the "standard" response to 1 gate expand in ZvP? I've found that attempting to go regular 3 base spire usually puts me economically behind against this opening.
You could counter with 3hatch speed/range hydra, usually bust down that 1 gate and fuck up the expansion because protoss doesn't make any cannons in this build.
EPT
