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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 389

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kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2040 Posts
May 23 2018 12:11 GMT
#7761
He always turns it black, I guess just a habit. Also works great for colour blind people. Matter of taste I would say.
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6638 Posts
May 23 2018 12:30 GMT
#7762
On May 23 2018 11:58 Alpha-NP- wrote:
Why does Sea sometimes play games with the minimap tabbed black the whole game? Is having the minimap tabbed black the best way to play on island maps?

I've noticed that myself, the only answer I could come up with is that it's even more noticeable when an enemy units appears on the map and he knows the maps so well that he doesn't need the detail of the map itself on the minimap?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-23 16:28:34
May 23 2018 16:28 GMT
#7763
What is the correct response when playing TvP and the toss is rushing DTs with mass zealots? Can I delay tank and mass vultures instead? I can stop him with a couple of turrets but after that I am not sure how to punish him since Science vessels take so long to get and I cant really move out without detection. I mean I have scans but not enough to sustain me.
Alpha-NP-
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States1242 Posts
May 24 2018 00:58 GMT
#7764
What is a good ZvT low economy map for people that hate macro (other than Sparkle)?
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 01:39:58
May 24 2018 01:38 GMT
#7765
On May 24 2018 01:28 Golgotha wrote:
What is the correct response when playing TvP and the toss is rushing DTs with mass zealots? Can I delay tank and mass vultures instead? I can stop him with a couple of turrets but after that I am not sure how to punish him since Science vessels take so long to get and I cant really move out without detection. I mean I have scans but not enough to sustain me.


As this is so uncommon, I'd like to know if there's a "correct" answer, too.

I'd assume that quick vultures should shut that down.Try to fight the zealots in the open field where your vults have room to manoeuvre, a few DTs chasing your vults shouldn't do much. Then speed-vultures with mines and 2 comsats should give you full map-control. If P went for double expand behind the DT/zealot-push, make those as costly for him/her as possible by forcing more DTs, pylon-walls, cannons or gateway-units with your vults and expand yourself. If there are really no/few goons your vultures can keep poking and do a lot of (indirect) damage. Don't miss the point when P gets several goons and observers though as you'll need tanks then. Make sure to not let another (ninja-)base go up for P. Transition into a normal game.

As you save the gas from the tanks you can get a quick starport for vulture drops.
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8745 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-24 02:34:23
May 24 2018 02:33 GMT
#7766
On May 24 2018 01:28 Golgotha wrote:
What is the correct response when playing TvP and the toss is rushing DTs with mass zealots? Can I delay tank and mass vultures instead? I can stop him with a couple of turrets but after that I am not sure how to punish him since Science vessels take so long to get and I cant really move out without detection. I mean I have scans but not enough to sustain me.

depends on your build, how well you scouted and how many marines you produced at the start. a typical 1 rax fe with fairly good scouting (you see the mass zealots as they leave) can block it easily by just building 2 bunkers, vultures and repair. you block the attack and the game is won right there. obviously this is assuming u have the detection for the dts also. if you didnt then youre in trouble even without the zealots
siege expand auto wins because you have a wall in.
the response for fe or 2 fac is difficult because its too dependent on a lot of different factors (scout timing, army location at time of scouting etc.)
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
May 24 2018 04:19 GMT
#7767
u have to sim city vs 1 base speedlot allin. it's very nearly impossible to hold without simcitying your nat

should be the same vs dt/speedlot, sounds like a weaker version of speedlot allin tbh

you'll have like 3 tanks 2 vults vs 6 goon 4~6 speedlot with a typical siege expand
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
May 24 2018 04:22 GMT
#7768
Thank you two. I actually run into this a lot since my mmr is so low. I open factory FE and put down an engi-bay as soon as I see it or think it's coming. I think putting down my engi bay that soon hurts my econ a bit but I'd rather be safe. Do I also put down an aca as soon as possible? the fast Engi bay and aca actually delays my factory, but it's worth it? Having the scan up quickly is vital right?

the part that I have a hard time with is what to do when the toss just sits back with his DTs and he double exapnds. he has DTs at all three locations and DTs at my front. I can't scan everything. Is rushing Science vessel effective at this junction?

I think dropping with starport might be effective as highgamer suggested. Or I simply stand back and take my third and push out once I have a science vessel.
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
May 24 2018 16:02 GMT
#7769
you don't need both ebay and aca immediately. generally fac cc ebay fac aca or fac cc aca fac ebay

versus fast dts get vults on the map and take your 3rd. obs will be delayed so it's very annoying for P to move around

2base arb has first recall at 11ish so watch out for that
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
May 24 2018 16:08 GMT
#7770
also if you're talking about some sort of 1base dt/speedlot allin into double expand: save up your scans, ramp up to 5 fac on 2 base and kill them

5fac does not, however, work against the more typical dt expand into 2base arbs
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-25 17:08:12
May 25 2018 15:51 GMT
#7771
On May 24 2018 11:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 01:28 Golgotha wrote:
What is the correct response when playing TvP and the toss is rushing DTs with mass zealots? Can I delay tank and mass vultures instead? I can stop him with a couple of turrets but after that I am not sure how to punish him since Science vessels take so long to get and I cant really move out without detection. I mean I have scans but not enough to sustain me.

depends on your build, how well you scouted and how many marines you produced at the start. a typical 1 rax fe with fairly good scouting (you see the mass zealots as they leave) can block it easily by just building 2 bunkers, vultures and repair. you block the attack and the game is won right there. obviously this is assuming u have the detection for the dts also. if you didnt then youre in trouble even without the zealots
siege expand auto wins because you have a wall in.
the response for fe or 2 fac is difficult because its too dependent on a lot of different factors (scout timing, army location at time of scouting etc.)


Out of painful experience, even if you mean it in the best sense, I'd refrain from these kinds of statements if you talk to players who're learning the game. "It's a won game" is only true if
a) you and your opponents level are about the same, which is hardly the case these days if you're a beginner, and a superior opponent can just wing it even after a bad start, and
b) if you do not only know in theory, but can actually perform what you have to do step by step until P is dead in his goo, not only until the P's attack is over.
And you have to have done it a couple of times to get the hang of it.

What you have to do might sound self-explanatory in theory, but low/mid-level games are lost to "stupid" mistakes 90% of the time. Without quick reaction and continous repair-commands, even if you have a wall - "auto win" - the zealots just walk up the ramp, destroy a depot and kill you. Without the multitasking and knowledge how to use speed-vults and mines to your advantage, a handful of DTs can give P full mapcontrol until vessels are out.

But you read on the forum it's an auto win, strange...

If you face these builds for the first few times, you hold them narrowly, then you're cornered, and the next thing you know is a P that has 3 bases and a massive army in a game that feels even at best.

edit:
I'd even go so far as to say, considering how much leeway players have to make comebacks in BW (or RTS in general), talking about a "won game" like this just means falling for a theorycrafting fallacy. A temporary advantage is a temporary advantage, a won game is a won game. Luckily in BW the one thing doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but rather minor or medium advantages are flattened out by the game over a relatively short time - and going for the kill early, even if you're at an advantage, involves a risk.
Immaterial
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada510 Posts
May 25 2018 18:25 GMT
#7772
Does anyone have thoughts on which of the current ladder maps in frontier league are considered to be generally more P favored?

At the moment I am playing on FS, Circuit Breakers, Destination and Tau Cross but only because I am most familiar with those maps (in the order I listed them). But I'm definitely down to learn Gladiator etc. if it is a good map for P, though Transistor is a map that I think I will probably never get the hang of. Thanks!~
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8745 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-26 05:11:07
May 26 2018 05:09 GMT
#7773
On May 26 2018 00:51 Highgamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 24 2018 11:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On May 24 2018 01:28 Golgotha wrote:
What is the correct response when playing TvP and the toss is rushing DTs with mass zealots? Can I delay tank and mass vultures instead? I can stop him with a couple of turrets but after that I am not sure how to punish him since Science vessels take so long to get and I cant really move out without detection. I mean I have scans but not enough to sustain me.

depends on your build, how well you scouted and how many marines you produced at the start. a typical 1 rax fe with fairly good scouting (you see the mass zealots as they leave) can block it easily by just building 2 bunkers, vultures and repair. you block the attack and the game is won right there. obviously this is assuming u have the detection for the dts also. if you didnt then youre in trouble even without the zealots
siege expand auto wins because you have a wall in.
the response for fe or 2 fac is difficult because its too dependent on a lot of different factors (scout timing, army location at time of scouting etc.)


Out of painful experience, even if you mean it in the best sense, I'd refrain from these kinds of statements if you talk to players who're learning the game. "It's a won game" is only true if
a) you and your opponents level are about the same, which is hardly the case these days if you're a beginner, and a superior opponent can just wing it even after a bad start, and
b) if you do not only know in theory, but can actually perform what you have to do step by step until P is dead in his goo, not only until the P's attack is over.
And you have to have done it a couple of times to get the hang of it.

What you have to do might sound self-explanatory in theory, but low/mid-level games are lost to "stupid" mistakes 90% of the time. Without quick reaction and continous repair-commands, even if you have a wall - "auto win" - the zealots just walk up the ramp, destroy a depot and kill you. Without the multitasking and knowledge how to use speed-vults and mines to your advantage, a handful of DTs can give P full mapcontrol until vessels are out.

But you read on the forum it's an auto win, strange...

If you face these builds for the first few times, you hold them narrowly, then you're cornered, and the next thing you know is a P that has 3 bases and a massive army in a game that feels even at best.

edit:
I'd even go so far as to say, considering how much leeway players have to make comebacks in BW (or RTS in general), talking about a "won game" like this just means falling for a theorycrafting fallacy. A temporary advantage is a temporary advantage, a won game is a won game. Luckily in BW the one thing doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but rather minor or medium advantages are flattened out by the game over a relatively short time - and going for the kill early, even if you're at an advantage, involves a risk.

well obviously in reality people make mistakes and games are lost. but phrases like auto win and "game is already won" etc are used so commonly because if you dont make a mistake you literally cannot lose.
its very commonly used even on streams when pros watch each other.
if you lose a won game just take it as that youve made really big mistakes, not because the opponent played well. also it helps to know that you were on the path to success prior to the screw up, rather than having to doubt the entire game
Dead9
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States4725 Posts
May 26 2018 05:38 GMT
#7774
On May 26 2018 03:25 Immaterial wrote:
Does anyone have thoughts on which of the current ladder maps in frontier league are considered to be generally more P favored?

At the moment I am playing on FS, Circuit Breakers, Destination and Tau Cross but only because I am most familiar with those maps (in the order I listed them). But I'm definitely down to learn Gladiator etc. if it is a good map for P, though Transistor is a map that I think I will probably never get the hang of. Thanks!~

fs, cb are both fine

longi, transistor are both protoss maps

desti, tau suck (both hard pvz)

glad is ok, its p>t z>=p
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-26 11:03:40
May 26 2018 10:54 GMT
#7775
On May 26 2018 14:09 evilfatsh1t wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2018 00:51 Highgamer wrote:
On May 24 2018 11:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On May 24 2018 01:28 Golgotha wrote:
What is the correct response when playing TvP and the toss is rushing DTs with mass zealots? Can I delay tank and mass vultures instead? I can stop him with a couple of turrets but after that I am not sure how to punish him since Science vessels take so long to get and I cant really move out without detection. I mean I have scans but not enough to sustain me.

depends on your build, how well you scouted and how many marines you produced at the start. a typical 1 rax fe with fairly good scouting (you see the mass zealots as they leave) can block it easily by just building 2 bunkers, vultures and repair. you block the attack and the game is won right there. obviously this is assuming u have the detection for the dts also. if you didnt then youre in trouble even without the zealots
siege expand auto wins because you have a wall in.
the response for fe or 2 fac is difficult because its too dependent on a lot of different factors (scout timing, army location at time of scouting etc.)


Out of painful experience, even if you mean it in the best sense, I'd refrain from these kinds of statements if you talk to players who're learning the game. "It's a won game" is only true if
a) you and your opponents level are about the same, which is hardly the case these days if you're a beginner, and a superior opponent can just wing it even after a bad start, and
b) if you do not only know in theory, but can actually perform what you have to do step by step until P is dead in his goo, not only until the P's attack is over.
And you have to have done it a couple of times to get the hang of it.

What you have to do might sound self-explanatory in theory, but low/mid-level games are lost to "stupid" mistakes 90% of the time. Without quick reaction and continous repair-commands, even if you have a wall - "auto win" - the zealots just walk up the ramp, destroy a depot and kill you. Without the multitasking and knowledge how to use speed-vults and mines to your advantage, a handful of DTs can give P full mapcontrol until vessels are out.

But you read on the forum it's an auto win, strange...

If you face these builds for the first few times, you hold them narrowly, then you're cornered, and the next thing you know is a P that has 3 bases and a massive army in a game that feels even at best.

edit:
I'd even go so far as to say, considering how much leeway players have to make comebacks in BW (or RTS in general), talking about a "won game" like this just means falling for a theorycrafting fallacy. A temporary advantage is a temporary advantage, a won game is a won game. Luckily in BW the one thing doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but rather minor or medium advantages are flattened out by the game over a relatively short time - and going for the kill early, even if you're at an advantage, involves a risk.

well obviously in reality people make mistakes and games are lost. but phrases like auto win and "game is already won" etc are used so commonly because if you dont make a mistake you literally cannot lose.
its very commonly used even on streams when pros watch each other.
if you lose a won game just take it as that youve made really big mistakes, not because the opponent played well. also it helps to know that you were on the path to success prior to the screw up, rather than having to doubt the entire game


I'm fine with the use of the term when, e.g., T has 3 bases and P has 1 and army-counts are even. My problem is the excessive over-use that gives people a wrong idea about slight/medium advantages and the dynamic of the game. A temporary advantage can by no means only disappear through big mistakes, but just by cautious and resilient play by the disadvantaged player, exactly because he/she played well and nothing else. I can't understand how a seasoned BW-player/observer can be so ignorant about this. And why the constant mix-up between pro-level (!) and the rest? And if they say something wrong, it's a law we have to repeat it?

Look at the case at hand:

You wrote "siege expand auto wins because you have a wall in."
With a siege expo against the guy with a bunch of zealots and DTs who double expands - how is that a "won game"? You have to wait for academy or leap-frog turrets until you can get your natural up, wait for vulture upgrades, and P keeps the zealots and few DTs for later... Siege expo is a very safe opening, you don't die, but you hardly end up with an unsurmountable advantage against pretty much anything P does... Talking about a won game is just plain wrong, isn't it?

And see what golgotha wrote aftewards: "the part that I have a hard time with is what to do when the toss just sits back with his DTs and he double exapnds."
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-26 10:56:19
May 26 2018 10:56 GMT
#7776
blurp
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8745 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-26 11:10:25
May 26 2018 11:01 GMT
#7777
On May 26 2018 19:54 Highgamer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2018 14:09 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On May 26 2018 00:51 Highgamer wrote:
On May 24 2018 11:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:
On May 24 2018 01:28 Golgotha wrote:
What is the correct response when playing TvP and the toss is rushing DTs with mass zealots? Can I delay tank and mass vultures instead? I can stop him with a couple of turrets but after that I am not sure how to punish him since Science vessels take so long to get and I cant really move out without detection. I mean I have scans but not enough to sustain me.

depends on your build, how well you scouted and how many marines you produced at the start. a typical 1 rax fe with fairly good scouting (you see the mass zealots as they leave) can block it easily by just building 2 bunkers, vultures and repair. you block the attack and the game is won right there. obviously this is assuming u have the detection for the dts also. if you didnt then youre in trouble even without the zealots
siege expand auto wins because you have a wall in.
the response for fe or 2 fac is difficult because its too dependent on a lot of different factors (scout timing, army location at time of scouting etc.)


Out of painful experience, even if you mean it in the best sense, I'd refrain from these kinds of statements if you talk to players who're learning the game. "It's a won game" is only true if
a) you and your opponents level are about the same, which is hardly the case these days if you're a beginner, and a superior opponent can just wing it even after a bad start, and
b) if you do not only know in theory, but can actually perform what you have to do step by step until P is dead in his goo, not only until the P's attack is over.
And you have to have done it a couple of times to get the hang of it.

What you have to do might sound self-explanatory in theory, but low/mid-level games are lost to "stupid" mistakes 90% of the time. Without quick reaction and continous repair-commands, even if you have a wall - "auto win" - the zealots just walk up the ramp, destroy a depot and kill you. Without the multitasking and knowledge how to use speed-vults and mines to your advantage, a handful of DTs can give P full mapcontrol until vessels are out.

But you read on the forum it's an auto win, strange...

If you face these builds for the first few times, you hold them narrowly, then you're cornered, and the next thing you know is a P that has 3 bases and a massive army in a game that feels even at best.

edit:
I'd even go so far as to say, considering how much leeway players have to make comebacks in BW (or RTS in general), talking about a "won game" like this just means falling for a theorycrafting fallacy. A temporary advantage is a temporary advantage, a won game is a won game. Luckily in BW the one thing doesn't necessarily lead to the other, but rather minor or medium advantages are flattened out by the game over a relatively short time - and going for the kill early, even if you're at an advantage, involves a risk.

well obviously in reality people make mistakes and games are lost. but phrases like auto win and "game is already won" etc are used so commonly because if you dont make a mistake you literally cannot lose.
its very commonly used even on streams when pros watch each other.
if you lose a won game just take it as that youve made really big mistakes, not because the opponent played well. also it helps to know that you were on the path to success prior to the screw up, rather than having to doubt the entire game


I'm fine with the use of the term when, e.g., T has 3 bases and P has 1 and army-counts are even. My problem is the excessive over-use that gives people a wrong idea about slight/medium advantages and the dynamic of the game. A temporary advantage can by no means only disappear through big mistakes, but just by cautious and resilient play by the disadvantaged player, exactly because he/she played well and nothing else. I can't understand how a seasoned BW-player/observer can be so ignorant about this. And why the constant mix-up between pro-level (!) and the rest? And if they say something wrong, it's a law we have to repeat it?

Look at the case at hand:

You wrote "siege expand auto wins because you have a wall in."
With a siege expo against the guy with a bunch of zealots and DTs who double expands - how is that a "won game"? You have to wait for academy or leap-frog turrets until you can get your natural up, wait for vulture upgrades, and P keeps the zealots and few DTs for later... Siege expo is a very safe opening, you don't die, but you hardly end up with an unsurmountable advantage against pretty much anything P does... Talking about a won game is just plain wrong, isn't it?

And see what golgotha wrote aftewards: "the part that I have a hard time with is what to do when the toss just sits back with his DTs and he double exapnds."

i was under the impression the original question about zealots and dt was an all-in. if it isnt an all-in then theres no reason for terran to sit behind the wall and turtle. taking nat asap, speed and mine upgrades asap, taking a quick 3rd and dominating the map is an easy way to follow up. sure, the game isnt won but i didnt think this scenario was part of the question to begin with.
my description of "won games" are apt descriptions in the scenario where toss is all-inning to bust you with zealots and dts. there was no excessive use. and i fail to see what the issue is with comparisons to pro games. lower level players dont improve by abusing win strategies, they win by improving their understanding of the game. the best way to do this is to see and hear what pros do and say about games and take that information in. if a pro calls something a "sure-win", there are reasons for it. im sure a beginner would get more value out of knowing somethings supposed to be a sure win
Highgamer
Profile Joined October 2015
1439 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-05-26 11:27:22
May 26 2018 11:18 GMT
#7778
Ic. The way i understood it, golgo talked about a situation like I have experienced them a lot on red/yellow-ranks where the opponent does some weird attack that you don't know, that has high damage potential but can be dealt with generally, yet the opponent didn't even go all-in (like a pro would have to go all-in to make anything happen with such weird stuff against another pro). Then you just end up in a scrappy game that can still go either way.
I guess it's also helpful to point out that, against players who just are a few levels above you, they can comeback from literally anything...

On May 26 2018 20:01 evilfatsh1t wrote:
lower level players dont improve by abusing win strategies, they win by improving their understanding of the game. the best way to do this is to see and hear what pros do and say about games and take that information in. if a pro calls something a "sure-win", there are reasons for it. im sure a beginner would get more value out of knowing somethings supposed to be a sure win


You're right (I never said anything about "win strategies" though), but understanding the game also means to put things in perspective. You have to judge situations very differently depending on which level of play you talk about. Pros talk about a different level of the game that almost has laws of its own. Flash can do things with a few SCVs and marines that basically only a handful of other players can do. Or JD could talk about a won-game because he can micro two muta floks at the same time and includes that in his judgement. If you take Flash's or JD's advice on sure-wins and sure-losses, they do by no means apply to your own games...
Frauenarzt
Profile Joined April 2006
Germany22 Posts
May 31 2018 03:47 GMT
#7779
ok i have a question
i saw some pro streams and they played normal 1v1 on ums fs with dark archons and bc in the middle where u had mindcontrol them every minute ? and at the top is a ~10min counter
also i saw circuit breaker with infested spawning every minute or so ? what are those kor maps and wtf are they used for ? its not really multitasking training for progamers anyway if they just have to mindcontrol a unit once every minute ?
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6638 Posts
May 31 2018 08:45 GMT
#7780
On May 31 2018 12:47 Frauenarzt wrote:
ok i have a question
i saw some pro streams and they played normal 1v1 on ums fs with dark archons and bc in the middle where u had mindcontrol them every minute ? and at the top is a ~10min counter
also i saw circuit breaker with infested spawning every minute or so ? what are those kor maps and wtf are they used for ? its not really multitasking training for progamers anyway if they just have to mindcontrol a unit once every minute ?

There's a similar version of Python where the players seem to randomly spawn units, they might get a probe that can kill anything in one shot or your units randomly teleport around the map and stuff, I'm pretty sure they're playing these just for fun, it's usually very late at night when they're playing it.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
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