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On May 18 2018 01:06 Golgotha wrote:Fresh new questions: 1. When facing carriers, + Show Spoiler + is there a point where they reach a critical mass and it will become hellish to beat them? I feel like I need to act fast whenever I scout a toss going carriers. Otherwise they balloon out of control and I get picked off. So how do I react when I am far ahead and he is massing carriers and I see it late? Turret up and keep my army intact or go and take out a base and have his carriers chase me? But if I do this, I usually lose all my tanks and vultures even though I can knock out a base or two. Not sure if it's worth it. 2. In TvP how do you know when you should move out before 200? U + Show Spoiler +sually I wait for 170ish with 1-2 upgrades, but I'd like to learn more about the match up to be able to take advantage. What if I'm on 3 base already and I see that the toss is taking a third around the same time? Can't I go in for the kill? But it seems like toss is always in a strong position with lots of units even when they take a base. So I'm not sure when they are "weak". I mean it's kinda infuriating when I'm just on 3 base and I see toss taking a fourth with tons of gateways and I can't do anything about it until max. Is that just how it is or are there some cues that allow me to move out faster? I know that this also has to do with my build, so I'd like to hear as much as I can about this match up. I watched the day9 TvP videos and they were very helpful. But the info is a bit general since he is painting a broad picture in such a short amount of time. edit: doing research on how to fight carriers I ran into this game in 2013 of Mind vs Shuttle. + Show Spoiler +Shuttle has his carrier fleet intact and Mind has 1 mineral left at the end. Mind only has like 7 goliaths left and is down to 29 supply. But Mind wins because Shuttle ran out of minerals to make more interceptors. Crazy good game! + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGr7g7o_ZXs
When attacking and killing interceptors, is it important to always move attack, move attack with your goliaths? I usually just let my goliaths fire by themselves, but watching mind I see that he always controls his golaiths even when just killing interceptors.
edit: Guess you set me off xD. Just couldn't find a good post to direct you too, but there have to be some out there.
@1:
First things first: Get gol-range upgrade ASAP when fighting carriers, and start working on upgrades, you want +2 attack at least, the more the better.
Next thing: Do you know how to micro against carriers? Roughly speaking, there are two scenarios:
a) Sniping carriers individually when they get close enough to your goliaths.
You tell your goliaths to attack one carrier, let them shoot once -> move one step towards the carriers -> press H so that the goliaths fire another round of shots -> repeat until carrier is dead then target next carrier.
b) Killing interceptors when carriers are out of range to be sniped.
Put your goliaths on control-groups, e.g. 123 -> a-move the shit out of 123 (or you ctrl-groups of choice) until enough interceptors have died for carriers to retreat.
You want to try a) whenever possible, but b) is the more common scenario if P uses his/her carriers right.
One more thing:
Use turrets only at the time when you need them, don't build 10 in advance before P even has carriers that can attack you. But lategame: build lots of turrets in locations that are hard to defend by gols.
Finally:
Scouting the carriers early is indeed very important because fighting carriers without enough goliaths is a bad idea. And yes: there is a critical number that is just very hard (but not impossible) to deal with because it's like a flying boss with mega-DPS and very long range. If you get surprised by hidden carriers, it's just a huge strategical win for the Protoss, hard for you to come back from. Therefore, aways scan Ps bases and watch out for a strange lack of army/expansions.
If you scout the carriers a bit late (but not just too late), you have to act fast, but more important is that you know what to do. Get gols, get upgrades, get another base while you attack, and think of the following:
You win most games against carriers by starving out Protoss in the long run, letting P burn all his/her money on interceptors (like in that game you quoted). Your problem now might be that, at first, it doesn't look as if P is taking damage when you fight the carriers as long as only interceptors die, but: Killing interceptors is VERY expensive for the P. One interceptor is 25minerals, 40 dead interceptors are 1000 minerals lost (that's 10 zealots), and 40 or more interceptors die in a few seconds against 2 or more groups of upgraded gols with above mentioned 1a2a3a-spam.
If P invests into interceptors and has a growing number of carriers, his/her ground army is small. Against carriers, once you have a big army of tanks and gols, you can - slowly but steadily - go anywhere you want on the map to kill bases. You can be contempt to ignore the 1-2 semi-empty bases that are really hard to reach as long as you have 1-2 fresh bases running yourself.
You only have to be worried of a counter attack: Once you move out with your big army, start building masses of turrets where ever you don't want carriers to go (your main base, expansions) and keep some reinforcing goliaths around to support the turrets. Buy time and kill interceptors while your tanks kill base after base.
So the above mentioned is your overall gameplan, but of course you want to hit a nice timing if you can:
Roughly speaking there are two scenarios: 2base carrier and later carriers (which can come as super-lategame-tech-switch).
In both scenarios, there should always be an ideal point where your ground army is stronger than usual in relation to P's ground army, shortly before or right around when the first 2-3 carriers pop, when P's big investment is already made but not yet paying off. You can move with your first few gols or even earlier with vult/tank to hit that timing and start doing damage. But keep in mind that P always has at least one shot for a big flank with his/her ground army, so don't go too far too quickly unsieged.
Against 2base carriers, sometimes you can try to shut down his/her natural with your first few gols or even with a few forward turrets and win straight away, alternatively you can go for P's 3rd if there is one.
Btw: Doing all the stuff I described is pretty hard on low/mid level, it's a mechanically and tactically demanding, but mandatory reaction to a - imo - not so sophisticated strategy (building a whole bunch of carriers, expanding everywhere, attack and retreat, attack and retreat at will). Don't get frustrated over a number of games lost after 20-30 minutes of running after expansions and carrier swarms.
@2:
Your observation is right, Protoss should never really be weak until lategame if you go for 3 quick bases yourself. Protoss getting away with 4 bases against your 3 is considered normal though. Normally you should not be able to punish that, or rather: Protoss would punish himself/herself by staying on even bases with you (unless going fast recall - or carriers). The reason P's 4 bases are perfectly OK is that Terran can trade quite cost efficiently against Protoss, like Terran losing 50-60% and Protoss losing almost everything. If you could keep trading armies on 3 vs 4 bases, Protoss should run out of steam earlier.
As for your 3base timing: If you can perform the build correctly, your +2/+1 upgrades finish around when you're at 170-180 supply, so you get a big dmg boost at that point.
Waiting for 200/200 would make your army even stronger, of course, but it would give Protoss the time to not only have the 200/200 he/she already has, but to also have a 5th base and some 10-20 more gates and a handful of arbiters instead of just 1 or 2. You will realize that moving out those 1-2 minutes earlier is really uncomfortable for the Protoss oftentimes. It's the difference between being basically prepared and being fully prepared for Protoss.
Your upgraded 170-180 army fits nicely into 5 handy control groups and it can beat P's 200/200 army, so why not move out before P has all the other stuff he/she wants? P's army-rebuilding-potential, P's chances to recall or mass-stasis - everything is worsening from your perspective, you have no time to wait really.
Also see it more like this: You just move out and see if your almost-perfect army can get get into a nice position for your soon-to-be perfect 200/200 army against this Protoss who's still very busy macroing.
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Highgamer, you are the fucking man. Thank you. "40 dead interceptors are 1000 minerals lost (that's 10 zealots), and 40 or more interceptors die in a few seconds against 2 or more groups of upgraded gols with above mentioned 1a2a3a-spam." - this blew my mind. it changes my mindset about the whole matchup. I was afraid of carriers but I guess toss is even more afraid of gols. Glad I asked, stuff like this is very helpful to find out.
@2:
So even if toss is getting his 4th in a normal manner and is adding a ton of macro gates at his 4th, I should just stay calm and continue on with my 3 bases. Got it.
When I play vs a competent toss, my vultures can't do much since there are goons and cannons at every expo. You are right when you say I can't really punish them. But what if I took my 4th before the 2-1 timing? wouldn't that put great pressure on the toss? Or is this too dangerous since taking a 4th is very difficult on some maps.
My last question is probably the most difficult for me to grasp. I know why I need a fast scan when I play TvZ, but I don't really see the need for scan in TvP. I have turrets and I have so much time before the arbs come out and I will have a SV by then. Why do terrans like flash and mind get the scan so early on? They add engi bay and aca almost simultaneously. But why? Why not just get engi bay cuz you will 100% need a turret to get rid of the obs at your front. turret will stop reavers and dts as well. why scan? And other than scanning the Protoss base, what else do you use scan for so early on? I want to be a better scanner. Armory, starport, engi bay, these things I understand why I get at a certain time. But not scan. and I think it's because I am not using my scans to their full potential in TvP. In TvZ, they are a godsend because of lurkers.
I will be so happy if someone can help me see the importance of scan and how to use it effectively in TvP so it's worth getting early on.
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the magic number for carriers is 6 btw. if toss hits 6 carriers with relative ease then your attempts to starve him will be futile because he can literally snipe command centers and fly out like nothing.
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1. cars become exponentially stronger but i wouldn't worry about "critical mass". it's more when P gets multiple tech paths (cars + arbs or cars + storms in particular) that cars become very scary. if you keep up economically P should not be able to afford it without cutting heavily into their carrier production
vs cars focus hard on upgrades and economy. if you can outpace Ps production (by securing gas bases) you'll naturally be able to win by outproducing P. it's very important your gas is spent carefully against cars, it's difficult to afford tanks while massing goliath
your goal is (as usual with lategame mech) to force P to engage your army so you can take positive trades. P should always come out behind in an engage if your upgrades are good
turrets are just to delay cars so you can get your gols there
and yes vs cars continually attackmove the ground, otherwise gols will freak out and run around chasing interceptors. if Ps cars are out in the open you can chase them down with goliaths too
2. if P plays standard there's not really any non-allin timing before 2-1. if they do something that gives you an economic advantage (for example 2 gate into double expand) there will be a window where you can punish, but for the most part you're better off keeping vults active on the map than trying to move out with your whole army. if P is too greedy vults will naturally punish them
keep in mind that if you keep your upgrades high 4 base P is even or slightly behind 3 base T, 6 base P is about even with 4 base T
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On May 20 2018 00:35 Dead9 wrote:
keep in mind that if you keep your upgrades high 4 base P is even or slightly behind 3 base T, 6 base P is about even with 4 base T
Thanks man. that's hella reassuring for me.
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What is the proper Zerg response against a Gateway fast expand that can easily wall the Protoss after his harass?
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@Golgotha
Most Pro Terrans go scan first because when they see no DT or reaver play, they don't have to build any turrets + they almost exactly know, what is going on. They have to build the ebay as well because the turrets would be too late to defend vs drop play otherwise. They still save the money for 3+ turrets they would have to get without any information.
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On May 19 2018 00:30 Zealgoon wrote:
Could anyone teach me the "standard" response to 1 gate expand in ZvP? I've found that attempting to go regular 3 base spire usually puts me economically behind against this opening.
take drones off gas after starting Lair and speed
because your saturation is worse (due to having to make zerglings) time it to only have 150 gas when you hit lair - you will be droning longer than usual after lair so your hydra den and evo chamber come up later, you will not use the gas as quickly because you won't be able to afford to use it anyway
on the flip side, the Protoss loses like 30 seconds on their corsair timing if they commit to pressuring you with zealots early on (instead of 5:45 corsair it's more like 6:15)
so you can possibly get zergling speed and THEN lair and still barely make it to protect your overlords if you went with the standard build of getting gas on 13
or you could get the later speed and get gas after third hatchery while making more zerglings - start with lair, then zerglings speed but start your tech later, after you squeezed out some drones
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On May 20 2018 04:44 Cryoc wrote:
@Golgotha
Most Pro Terrans go scan first because when they see no DT or reaver play, they don't have to build any turrets + they almost exactly know, what is going on. They have to build the ebay as well because the turrets would be too late to defend vs drop play otherwise. They still save the money for 3+ turrets they would have to get without any information.
Thank you Cryoc. That's the answer I was looking for. Now I have a better understanding of why pros get it so quickly and their reasoning behind it.
You are right, a pro will scan and immediately know what is going on. But do you have any advice for low level terrans? What should they look for with the first two scans? I usually scan their main and then 2nd. But perhaps I should scan the main twice to get a better coverage area?
When I scan, the most obvious things I look for are a robotics bay or fast templar archives. other than that, I don't really know what to think if I see neither. If I see a bunch of gates, I don't really know if it's standard or some kind of all in strategy.
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Bulgaria750 Posts
On May 20 2018 16:11 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 04:44 Cryoc wrote:
@Golgotha
Most Pro Terrans go scan first because when they see no DT or reaver play, they don't have to build any turrets + they almost exactly know, what is going on. They have to build the ebay as well because the turrets would be too late to defend vs drop play otherwise. They still save the money for 3+ turrets they would have to get without any information. Thank you Cryoc. That's the answer I was looking for. Now I have a better understanding of why pros get it so quickly and their reasoning behind it. You are right, a pro will scan and immediately know what is going on. But do you have any advice for low level terrans? What should they look for with the first two scans? I usually scan their main and then 2nd. But perhaps I should scan the main twice to get a better coverage area? When I scan, the most obvious things I look for are a robotics bay or fast templar archives. other than that, I don't really know what to think if I see neither. If I see a bunch of gates, I don't really know if it's standard or some kind of all in strategy.
A bunch of gates means they're not committed to being greedy, not necessarily an all-in, but a more aggressive build designed to punish earlier expand attempts by T. I already complained about having to expand off 4 factories, usually, and a more aggressive build might cost me the game right there if I stuck to two. A standard gate expand robot build with a bunch of gates and an early shuttle afterwards has killed me more than once if I expand too early and stretch the few tanks I have too thin.
Between the vultures out on the map and your scans, you can get a pretty good idea of the game flow based on what protoss is doing (scans) and not doing (vultures find no expansions).
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On May 20 2018 16:11 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 04:44 Cryoc wrote:
@Golgotha
Most Pro Terrans go scan first because when they see no DT or reaver play, they don't have to build any turrets + they almost exactly know, what is going on. They have to build the ebay as well because the turrets would be too late to defend vs drop play otherwise. They still save the money for 3+ turrets they would have to get without any information. Thank you Cryoc. That's the answer I was looking for. Now I have a better understanding of why pros get it so quickly and their reasoning behind it. You are right, a pro will scan and immediately know what is going on. But do you have any advice for low level terrans? What should they look for with the first two scans? I usually scan their main and then 2nd. But perhaps I should scan the main twice to get a better coverage area? When I scan, the most obvious things I look for are a robotics bay or fast templar archives. other than that, I don't really know what to think if I see neither. If I see a bunch of gates, I don't really know if it's standard or some kind of all in strategy.
Ideally you have scouted the position of the 3 pylons in the main with your scv scout, so you should scan those locations to see any fast tech and the gateway count. A standard Protoss opening would be observer tech and 3 gateways before 3rd base. If there are more gateways it will likely be a bust with a shuttle. Scan is also useful to take your third, because you can just scan, if the P main army is there and if that is the case you can commit your entire army to take your third as well.
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On May 20 2018 20:51 TaardadAiel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2018 16:11 Golgotha wrote:On May 20 2018 04:44 Cryoc wrote:
@Golgotha
Most Pro Terrans go scan first because when they see no DT or reaver play, they don't have to build any turrets + they almost exactly know, what is going on. They have to build the ebay as well because the turrets would be too late to defend vs drop play otherwise. They still save the money for 3+ turrets they would have to get without any information. Thank you Cryoc. That's the answer I was looking for. Now I have a better understanding of why pros get it so quickly and their reasoning behind it. You are right, a pro will scan and immediately know what is going on. But do you have any advice for low level terrans? What should they look for with the first two scans? I usually scan their main and then 2nd. But perhaps I should scan the main twice to get a better coverage area? When I scan, the most obvious things I look for are a robotics bay or fast templar archives. other than that, I don't really know what to think if I see neither. If I see a bunch of gates, I don't really know if it's standard or some kind of all in strategy. A bunch of gates means they're not committed to being greedy, not necessarily an all-in, but a more aggressive build designed to punish earlier expand attempts by T. I already complained about having to expand off 4 factories, usually, and a more aggressive build might cost me the game right there if I stuck to two. A standard gate expand robot build with a bunch of gates and an early shuttle afterwards has killed me more than once if I expand too early and stretch the few tanks I have too thin. Between the vultures out on the map and your scans, you can get a pretty good idea of the game flow based on what protoss is doing (scans) and not doing (vultures find no expansions). How many gates can a protoss go up to/how long can he delay his third, before he ends up behind?
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7~7:30 3rd is about normal vs fac fe
6~6:30 3rd is about normal vs rax fe
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Where should I be placing my OLs ZvT on circuit breakers?
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On May 20 2018 09:42 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2018 00:30 Zealgoon wrote:
Could anyone teach me the "standard" response to 1 gate expand in ZvP? I've found that attempting to go regular 3 base spire usually puts me economically behind against this opening. take drones off gas after starting Lair and speed because your saturation is worse (due to having to make zerglings) time it to only have 150 gas when you hit lair - you will be droning longer than usual after lair so your hydra den and evo chamber come up later, you will not use the gas as quickly because you won't be able to afford to use it anyway on the flip side, the Protoss loses like 30 seconds on their corsair timing if they commit to pressuring you with zealots early on (instead of 5:45 corsair it's more like 6:15) so you can possibly get zergling speed and THEN lair and still barely make it to protect your overlords if you went with the standard build of getting gas on 13 or you could get the later speed and get gas after third hatchery while making more zerglings - start with lair, then zerglings speed but start your tech later, after you squeezed out some drones
Thanks! I'll try it.
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In late game pvt, i sometimes find myself facing many science vessels and it s impossible to recall or use stasis decently, should I get DA for feedback? Or just accept i cant recall and just wait until T runs out of resources?
I m talking like 6-8 bases P vs 4-5 T.
I usually survive a couple 200/200 fights but then at some point i screw up my macro and just die...
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Well, it's a tug of war in that stage of the game, so whoever screws up something major first will lose, but see it like this: Vessels are the natural counter to arbiters, so if the Terran is on his/her toes, you shouldn't get a recall off. As a Terran, don't brush that off, catching all those arbiters flying in is by no means easy - and thank god there is no such thing as a Protoss-right recalling successfully..
Apart from that + Show Spoiler +and fancy things like DAs.. if you have the APM, why not?
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late game pvt tends to become a macro fest, if you slip up macro you're just gonna die. you need to keep your base/gate count high enough to remax quickly after big engages
you can force a recall by flying multiple arbs in or via hallucinate if you have the arbs/energy to spare. also it's rare that T doesn't have gaps in recall defense (especially at 4-5 base), if you keep poking you'll eventually get one off
in big engages you should have many more arbs than T has vessels so you should be able to get at least a few stasises off
if you have the apm you'd probably get more out of shuttle+HT than DA
if you want to avoid arb vs vessel carriers are also an option
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This isn't really a strategy question, but I don't want to post an entire thread for this so I'll just ask here -- does anyone have a replay pack for WCG 2005 USA Championship (this was the tourney with Day9, Tasteless, Artosis etc. that Day9 ultimately won)? I'm just really curious to watch the replays for fun ^^ They have been posted in various places on TL and elsewhere in the past but all of the download links are expired.
Alternatively, if anyone has any KR pro replay packs send 'em may way haha, I'm always on the look out for more replays (I already have the majority of the good ones that have been posted on TL, as far as I can tell)
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Why does Sea sometimes play games with the minimap tabbed black the whole game? Is having the minimap tabbed black the best way to play on island maps?
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EPT
