|
United States42985 Posts
On August 04 2025 23:41 Kraekkling wrote:
What’s the earliest one could safely take a third in PvZ?
Is there a specific build aimed at taking a third early? This assumes the game was textbook standard; i.e. 3 hatch spire into 5/6 hatch hydra from Zerg. (Probably not viable against pre-storm 3h-spire into 5h-hydra busts, but those can usually be identified by the first Corsair)
In most games, Protoss will aim for 8 gates and take a third around the 10-minute mark, maybe a bit later.
So, is it possible to pressure Zerg with an implied timing attack around 7-8 minutes, take a third during that period of map control, and still be able to defend the incoming 6-hatch macro flood, which hits before the Protoss third starts paying off economically? Or does Protoss just always die to some follow-up?
Map dependent.
|
On August 04 2025 23:41 Kraekkling wrote:
What’s the earliest one could safely take a third in PvZ?
Is there a specific build aimed at taking a third early? This assumes the game was textbook standard; i.e. 3 hatch spire into 5/6 hatch hydra from Zerg. (Probably not viable against pre-storm 3h-spire into 5h-hydra busts, but those can usually be identified by the first Corsair)
In most games, Protoss will aim for 8 gates and take a third around the 10-minute mark, maybe a bit later.
So, is it possible to pressure Zerg with an implied timing attack around 7-8 minutes, take a third during that period of map control, and still be able to defend the incoming 6-hatch macro flood, which hits before the Protoss third starts paying off economically? Or does Protoss just always die to some follow-up?
the short answer to your first question is no. unfortunately the law of pvz is that protoss's early game is entirely in the hands of zerg. how much room you have to breathe is dependent on what the zerg chooses to do. so no, there is no build that guarantees you a path to taking a 3rd early
typically most games protoss will want to do something on their +1/leg speed timing. if you vsed a 973 opening then you will have to add storms to your comp before you can start to move around the map more.
either way your options from this point are the same. you scout with corsairs and you look at zerg drone count, zerg gas, zerg eggs, see whats hatching, see where zerg army is positioned and how big it is, then snipe free overlords if you have a chance.
and then based on what you see, you can commit to a trade, a bust (would have needed to have committed to more gates too) or just contain zergs movement while you get a 3rd, get dragoon range and tech. if youre really good (classic bisu) then you take a 3rd simultaneously to trading some of your army at a zerg base.
|
On August 04 2025 23:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2025 23:41 Kraekkling wrote:
What’s the earliest one could safely take a third in PvZ?
Is there a specific build aimed at taking a third early? This assumes the game was textbook standard; i.e. 3 hatch spire into 5/6 hatch hydra from Zerg. (Probably not viable against pre-storm 3h-spire into 5h-hydra busts, but those can usually be identified by the first Corsair)
In most games, Protoss will aim for 8 gates and take a third around the 10-minute mark, maybe a bit later.
So, is it possible to pressure Zerg with an implied timing attack around 7-8 minutes, take a third during that period of map control, and still be able to defend the incoming 6-hatch macro flood, which hits before the Protoss third starts paying off economically? Or does Protoss just always die to some follow-up? Map dependent.
Yea I assumed so - let's say we're talking about maps where the third can be secured with a single ramp, e.g. Eclipse or FS (kinda).
I don't think its possible on maps where the third is in the open, like Tau Cross or similar
typically most games protoss will want to do something on their +1/leg speed timing. if you vsed a 973 opening then you will have to add storms to your comp before you can start to move around the map more.
either way your options from this point are the same. you scout with corsairs and you look at zerg drone count, zerg gas, zerg eggs, see whats hatching, see where zerg army is positioned and how big it is, then snipe free overlords if you have a chance.
and then based on what you see, you can commit to a trade, a bust (would have needed to have committed to more gates too) or just contain zergs movement while you get a 3rd, get dragoon range and tech. if youre really good (classic bisu) then you take a 3rd simultaneously to trading some of your army at a zerg base.
I'm talking about scenarios where P knows that no 973 is coming and also doesn't (corsair-)scout a low-drone 3h-spire into 5h with early hyd den.
Also for the sake of the discussion lets assume it was either nexus first or forge expand and not a 9gate into nexus, thus there is little player interaction in the very early stage.
In general, the early/mid BOs which include a Stargate can have these follow up timing attacks
- quick 2gate speedlot (~6:30)
- 1-0 speedlot (~7:15)
- citadel into stargate into DT (~6:40 or sth)
- 1-0 speedlot & 1-0 sair timing (~8:30)
I'm probably off for some of these (and left out the more unconventional stuff)
My intuition would be that IF one goes into the game with a plan of "if I scout standard macro Z, I want to take a quick third", it should be either the quick DTs or the speedlot/sair BO, because IMO the other builds lose map control too quickly when Z gets mutas to defend against the zealots?
|
if you absolutely want to take a quick 3rd, then you just go and do that. the only problem is that if you lock yourself into a game plan like that, the quick 3rd decision may prove to have been the suboptimal decision. thats why you react to whatever information zerg gives you.
the build doesnt change either way. once your +1 speedlots are out on the map you have a window where you have priority. dts and sairs dont make a difference because 1. dts are a small investment on a tech tree youre already going (with or without shuttle) and 2. if you want to go 5/7 sairs then that decision has to have been made way before your zealots are out on the map anyway.
therefore the optimal build to take a quick 3rd is any build that gives you +1 speedlots off at least 6 gates. its just up to you whether you decide to actually take it or not. that said, 9/10 times, a 3rd coinciding with your earliest +1 speedlot push timing is going to be suicide. the first group of zealots you have out on the map only exert pressure because you dont have any other bases to defend, whilst zerg has 2. if you place a 3rd immediately then the ground your zealots have to cover defensively become just as big, and you are very likely to just forfeit map control right there because your units dont have the same maneuvarability.
thats why its better to wait and see what the zerg is doing. you yourself said most games 3rds are taken post 10mins. theres a reason for that
if you had the benefit of knowing 100% that the zerg was doing a very standard 5hatch hydra then +1 speedlot/+1 sair would be the best build to get a fast and safe 3rd. unfortunately in real games you dont know this and therefore you cant always decide to mass corsairs preemptively
|
United States42985 Posts
I’m not going to answer the question so much as poke holes in it so sorry but the other issue is why do we want to take a quick third.
There are a number of prerequisites that must be done before Protoss has any business running around on the map. Some sort of counter vs muta (normally 6 or more +1 sairs), handful of storms, mixed army, and at least 6 gates. Without gates behind it you can’t win any trade because your units are comparatively more expensive in terms of time investment than Zerg. So a lot of the PvZ meta is getting those things checked off the list asap. That’s the Protoss power spike, that’s when you can be out on the map, force a fight, storm the shit out of them while trading only zealots, and replenish instantly.
You don’t need a third to do any of that and taking a quick third then throwing a bunch of cannons at the top of the ramp/mineral line slows down everything else on the list.
Taking a quick third puts you in a race with the Zerg about who can power harder and who has a greater payoff after powering is done. And Zerg has more bases, greater flexibility to accelerate economic growth by spamming workers, better late game upgrades, and better late game spells.
If you’re already in a scenario where you’re somewhat locked in to playing a late game, like Zerg took another nat as his third, then I can see a justification for it. But outside of that I hate taking a sneaky/abusive 3rd fast as P like a probe grabbing a high ground on Eclipse. A strong Zerg is as greedy as Protoss allow them to be, only consistent pressure from the Protoss keeps them honest. You prioritize hitting your pressure timings because if you don’t the adaptive Zerg will eat your lunch.
Basically don’t ask the question at all. You take a third and a fourth when you’re already achieved all you can with pressure. You’ve exercised map control, forced favourable trades, forced them to lock down on their bases, denied expansion attempts, and they’re waiting on defilers to contest the map. You can take them much earlier if you like and you can often hold them if you do, a gateway at the base for ht production plus some high ground cannons, they’re probably not busting it. But you can’t do that and do the checklist.
|
I agree with almost everything you said. The data shows that the biggest (win rate) power spike in PvZ is around ~12 minutes, which is the timing of goon/temp vs. hydra/lurk. This is at a time when a 3rd base taken at ~10-11 minutes not yet yielding any real economic benefit.
IMO in general in situations where P got ahead in the early game somehow, a 3rd base is often a bad choice and works in Zerg's favor. As P, you want to hit Zerg before Hive, and any investment that delays this timing works in Zerg's favor. IMO a better follow-up is a strong 8-gate timing to end the game.
It's interesting how getting to Hive flips the dynamics and win rates of both ZvT and ZvP. The turning point in ZvT is much easier to understand due to swarm + Show Spoiler +, but the effect of Hive is identical, stat-wise.
That said, and to circle back to my initial inquiry, I was trying to think whether it's possible to have a strong timing vs. pre-Hive Zerg while already benefiting from a 3-base-and more importantly, a 3-gas-economy. It's entirely possible that the answer is simply no.
I'm mostly a Zerg main, so my perspective is from a somewhat different angle. I feel like there's a point for pre-Hive Zerg where increasing army size with hydra/lurk hits diminishing returns, or even becomes favorable for P. It's a simplification, but the more Hydra/Lurk you have, the harder it is to make them deal damage, and the more clumps of units there are for HTs to storm. So even if Zerg gets to 75 drones and 5 bases, it might still be worth it for P - as long as the deciding fight happens before Hive tech kicks in. This is mostly speculation though.
However after typing all of this I think the proper reaction from Zerg after scouting a quick 3rd might just be an earlier Hive 
2base 8gate all-in it is then
|
Another thing I wonder about is why other matchups feel much more developed compared to PvZ in a sense where there is a game plan with supply benchmarks and tech switches very late into the game. For PvZ it's more like
7-8 minute timing -> 8 gateways -> gateway unit ball and run around on the map
A second Bisu is needed in these times. + Show Spoiler +
|
On August 05 2025 08:55 Kraekkling wrote:Another thing I wonder about is why other matchups feel much more developed compared to PvZ in a sense where there is a game plan with supply benchmarks and tech switches very late into the game. For PvZ it's more like 7-8 minute timing -> 8 gateways -> gateway unit ball and run around on the map A second Bisu is needed in these times. + Show Spoiler +
I think it's just due to the nature of the match-up. As someone said earlier, you're basically on the back foot and reacting to Zerg choices for much of the early/early-mid game.
But, I do have a suggestion. A faint light at the end of the tunnel. A suggestion that is dumb as fuck on paper but will fool inferior cookie cutter Zergs until you start hitting real opponents. I know ranks are much different now than in 2021/2022 or so, but this was my build against Zerg until A rank (map-dependent, obviously): 1 base Sair/Reaver into double expand.
It's actually super flexible. It can win and lose to every build Zerg can do depending on how you scout and react. Sometimes you look like a mad villain, sometimes you look like a clown.
Here are the basics, if memory serves correct:
Pylon (on high ground in main)* by ramp, scout
Gateway (also on high ground, in main)*
Assimilator
Pylon or Cyber first based on scouting (Hatch first = Cyber before Zealot, if you scout last then Z Core Z or ZZ Core)
2 Zealots block ramp. Can also fake an attack off 1 base if their Overlord is not in your main seeing your tech. Add a Dragoon after 2 Z for early Overlord kill and to keep plans hidden.
After that, it depends. If they go fast Hydra then you need Forge and ramp cannon and Robo before Stargate. If they are doing 3 Hatch Muta then you go Stargate before Robo and +1 Air.
Your plan from there onwards also depends, but generally looks like this:
1. Reaver harass with first Reaver (unless vs fast Hydra), get Shuttle speed.
2. Take expo with cliff Pylon into Cannons at nat with 2nd Reaver.
3. Take fast 3rd right after natural with the 2 Zealots blocking ramp + cannon + returning harass Shuttle + Reaver.
4. Use Sair to scout and react accordingly.
This accomplishes the following:
1. Confuses Zergs who are not used to 1 base tech.
2. Forces them into a game state where you have much more experience with the reactions and interactions than they do.
3. Fast 3rd (sometimes)
4. Can make either you or them or both look stupid.
5. Fun as hell, high risk high reward, high APM mid-game.
6. Transitions well into Sair/Reaver/Carrier with upgrade advantage, also very fun to play. Can also transition into big Templar-heavy midgame too though.
Give it a try! I can try to find some old ass reps if you're interested. I'm willing to be embarrassed 😂
Edit: sorry, just need to mention that this works basically on FS, semi-island, and other maps with a very safe 3rd with 1 ramp. Will not work on maps like Gladiator or whatever is that modern equivalent I saw recently.
|
so way back in the day I had hundreds of boxer replays from his pro days, and in one of those games he played grrr in 2002: grrr did a 1 gate robo range (or range robo maybe? its been a while) into observers into nexus build. I never played a ton of protoss but for years and years that was my go-to, because I thought: I'm still getting a decently fast expo, its flexible enough that I can go reaver instead of obs or obs into reaver and I'll definitely be able to judge what the terrans doing. Then I can power on a bunch of gateways if I need to or grab a super fast third or a fourth, whatever I need, because getting obs that early means you have spectacular coverage. Why is this build 'not good enough' anymore?
edit: I was an A rank zerg back in the early 20's and I also made a 1 base sair reaver build when I played protoss! haha. It does work really well.
|
United States42985 Posts
On August 12 2025 07:45 Ze'ev wrote:
so way back in the day I had hundreds of boxer replays from his pro days, and in one of those games he played grrr in 2002: grrr did a 1 gate robo range (or range robo maybe? its been a while) into observers into nexus build. I never played a ton of protoss but for years and years that was my go-to, because I thought: I'm still getting a decently fast expo, its flexible enough that I can go reaver instead of obs or obs into reaver and I'll definitely be able to judge what the terrans doing. Then I can power on a bunch of gateways if I need to or grab a super fast third or a fourth, whatever I need, because getting obs that early means you have spectacular coverage. Why is this build 'not good enough' anymore?
Terrans are expanding too fast. That build is too defensive, there is no potential to punish until observer + shuttle + reaver and by the time you have that you’re so far behind economically that they can afford turrets/siege.
1 base play is basically a cheese these days. You can use your obs to find out what he’s doing but you’re so far behind you won’t be able to beat it.
19 nexus 27 robo obs rush plays very similarly to what you’re describing while also having a nexus.
|
The reason to take an expansion is so different in pvz. Zerg does it because odds of protoss doing an early rush is so rare, therefore it goes unpunished. For Protoss, you have to have 850 in the bank for a free expansion. You can spare here and there, but 850 is a large amount to have saved up while reacting simultaneously to zerg early aggression. You can save 450 by boosting and starting to cut probes at 9/9 - that is enough for the probe to start the nexus, too - but you will still have to ramp up probe production and protoss isn't capable of making probes intermittently like zerg is. However if you keep making probes one after the other, you can save 41-47 minerals compared to a zerg player making drones three at a time therefore almost saving for one probe extra due to the saved mining time, however saving 40+ minerals for every three workers is hard to come by. A good zerg will never leave his hatcheries unattended. Pvz is a diamond in the rough. The potential is there for big wins however zerg is more nimble.
|
On August 12 2025 07:45 Ze'ev wrote:
so way back in the day I had hundreds of boxer replays from his pro days, and in one of those games he played grrr in 2002: grrr did a 1 gate robo range (or range robo maybe? its been a while) into observers into nexus build. I never played a ton of protoss but for years and years that was my go-to, because I thought: I'm still getting a decently fast expo, its flexible enough that I can go reaver instead of obs or obs into reaver and I'll definitely be able to judge what the terrans doing. Then I can power on a bunch of gateways if I need to or grab a super fast third or a fourth, whatever I need, because getting obs that early means you have spectacular coverage. Why is this build 'not good enough' anymore?
edit: I was an A rank zerg back in the early 20's and I also made a 1 base sair reaver build when I played protoss! haha. It does work really well.
Every second you delay your nexus you delay maynarding your workers. I've found that for Zerg at least the next worker after 9 on 9 patches only mines at HALF speed.
So with 18 probes you might be mining at 1000 minerals a minute on one base, but 1200 minerals a minute on two bases. That means you get your THIRD nexus later, etc.
Worse, every second you delay making a nexus you lose 1 second of probe production. Each probe mines a mineral a minute (although each additional probe after 1 per patch mines half as stated above). But the next probe is similarly delayed by one second, and the one after that. So if you build 20 probes out of the nexus non-stop (because you're getting ready to transfer to your third), each one second delay is 20 seconds of mining less, which is between 10-20 minerals
so delaying your second base by just one minute costs you around 800 minerals and more if you count the delay of your third nexus and cascading effects (like having more troops in a fight lets you win it instead of losing it)
|
|
|
Does anyone have the Old plains to hill map? I cant find it anywhere.
|
|
|
Unfortunately that's plains to hill but not old plains to hill. 😥
|
|
|
Yeah but the problem is theres no download for it.
|
On September 03 2025 01:49 Ze'ev wrote:
Yeah but the problem is theres no download for it.
Ah, you're right, I'm used to there always being a download link. Some alternative approaches for this map (and future ones):
https://repmastered.icza.net/map/Plains to Hill#top-variations
^ Maybe one of these will be right. I searched for "Old Plains to Hill" as a map title but I realized that the title was probably just "Plains to Hill" and then they added the "Old" after releasing 2.0 and renamed the old map instead of the new one (no wonder we don't see this happen more often!).
In other words, I think you should be looking for map files named "Plains to Hill" and not "Old Plains to Hill" but that's just a hunch.
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/maplist.php?search=Plains to Hill&go=go
^ This is another map database, though it seems that there is only one version up on this one. Clicking on the developer name to the right seemed promising, but unfortunately I didn't find any relevant results there and this version seems to be 2.1.
I tried searching for the Korean name of the map "구플레인즈투힐" but unfortunately all it gives is old text-based posts on PGR and etc.
Ultimately, the high res image in the TLPD is probably enough to be able to recreate it mostly accurately, given how limited editing tools were at that time. The basic map editor should be enough to handle it, if you really want this map badly.
|
Ok cool, I'll look into those links: I really appreciate the effort you put in, and I'll use those websites in the future for other maps if tlpd doesnt have them. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
