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prayanavita
Hong Kong86 Posts
On July 01 2008 20:39 Nyovne wrote: Better to proxy generate creep then to build a hatch, why wait a min when you can just wait 5 seconds? :D Because it's quite pimp to set up your hatchery right next to their nexus. As I said no real world use but versus the wow-players at WWI it's funny to do. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 20:22 VIB wrote: What speed does mutant larvas move at? Speedling speed, reaver speed or something between? How is their survivability? Like a drone or like a sc1 egg? Can you use it to morph evolved stuff like banelings/lurker/guardians? I imagine it could be nice to 1) morph slow building units such as ultralisks. 2) build counters faster. ex.: you get rushed by air so you are desperate to get corrupters before banshees kills something important, so while your lair is building you start getting mutant larvas whenever cooldown is up then as soon as it complete, bam 10 corrupters go kill the banshees 3) rushes, muta rush for example, start getting larvas while lair/spire are building, once they're done, bam 10 instant mutas gogo They are as fast as unupgraded zerglings (exactly the same). And no you cannot morph them into any evolved forms, just the basic unit types so no guards, banelings, lurkers. Mostly its nice to have some clutch units when you need them (and if you can afford them) or to instant spawn a huge ass army if you can afford it with massive banked resources. Just you mutate a larvae, you don't spawn one. So every mutant larvae you make didnt grow into a unit that you are actively using. That combined with the cooldown on the ability along with the min/gas cost makes it that its challenging/not easy to accuire a decent amount of them, and remember that they are 1 supply each, so idle mutant larvae are just taking up supply and resources while doing nothing at all for you. It's a very interesting mechanic that has alot of promise but Id have to play it alot more vs proper people in proper games to find out if they are actually worth a damn in practise and not just in theory. My feel tells me its a really cool mechanic but really needs some tweaking as it feels not practical at the moment at all. It's promising and I really hope blizz works it out somehow. Things like not requiring a larvae to mutate but that the queen just spawns them herself and them not taking up supply are a few things that come to mind. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
Can corruptors infest colossi? Can infestors cast while burrowed? | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 20:45 prayanavita wrote: Because it's quite pimp to set up your hatchery right next to their nexus. As I said no real world use but versus the wow-players at WWI it's funny to do. Haha yeah some shit was just really funny to pull off vs scrubs :D. And yeah 2 sec hatching ultras are good stuff, sadly I didnt get arround to use hive tech efficiently a) cause games just ended midgame or b) cause you didnt have enough gas to effectively mass/use any amount of hive tech units. | ||
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prayanavita
Hong Kong86 Posts
On July 01 2008 20:57 Nyovne wrote: They are as fast as unupgraded zerglings (exactly the same). Are you sure about that, I thought they were slower than that? And they do actually slow down a lot when you move them off the creep. Please correct me if I'm wrong here Nyovne | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 20:57 VIB wrote: lol you guys are awesome, this is the best thread ever <3 Can corruptors infest colossi? Can infestors cast while burrowed? Yes Corruptors can infest Collossi, just keep in mind that infested "turrets", which is effectively what units turn into can only fire their air to air attacks. In short, a infested collossus is nothing more then a nice battlefield ornament for the whole amazing *COUGH* 10 seconds that it lasts before it crumbles down. Srly just *lol* at the hive tech level upgrade "enduring corruption" which adds like 5-10 secs to the already amazingly short corruption duration. That plus corruptors suck amazingly huge dick, even though they are pretty fast (mediumish speed), relatively cheap 100/75/2. They somehow just didn't convince me but massed vs mass air they absolutely rape, but the place they have in the techtree is just wrong at the moment. | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 21:02 prayanavita wrote: Are you sure about that, I thought they were slower than that? And they do actually slow down a lot when you move them off the creep. Please correct me if I'm wrong here Nyovne I didnt pay attention to them off creep so they might as well slow down there, I'll take your word on it since I didn't check it at all. So its medium speed on creep and slow speed off, that makes sense. Oh btw they do have the 10 armor that a normal larvae has  . | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 20:57 VIB wrote: lol you guys are awesome, this is the best thread ever <3 Can corruptors infest colossi? Can infestors cast while burrowed? Oh infestors cannot cast while burrowed, they can still move while burrowed though ^^. And they cannot burrow through a cliff side, so youll have to take the ramp (which is easily guarded with detection sadly) to get into his base to infest something for example. | ||
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prayanavita
Hong Kong86 Posts
On July 01 2008 21:11 Nyovne wrote: I didnt pay attention to them off creep so they might as well slow down there, I'll take your word on it since I didn't check it at all. So its medium speed on creep and slow speed off, that makes sense. Oh btw they do have the 10 armor that a normal larvae has .I wonder if they can be used to block units, didn't get a chance to try that out. You could use them as free meatshields or to stop block enemies so then can't run from banelings. Ah well at least I have some stuff to try out at Blizzcon now. | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 21:15 prayanavita wrote: I wonder if they can be used to block units, didn't get a chance to try that out. You could use them as free meatshields or to stop block enemies so then can't run from banelings. Ah well at least I have some stuff to try out at Blizzcon now. I can tell you already that won't happen :p, a) too slow and b) ever tried to block a ramp with zeals against speed lings in SC2? They pretty much just run straight through as units are exactly as large as their model apears to be and ramps are just as wide  . Took like 5 zeals to block a normal ramp haha.:D But yeah creative thinking is the way to go, it's so exciting to try out new games ;ooo. I wanna go to blizzcon but prolly can't get it done financially so that kinda blows huge ass.  | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
gameplay(mainly toss): theres so much gay fun stuff you can do early/mid game with blink, warp gates (+phase prisms), collosi, nullifiers. stalkers+nullifiers were a really good pairing, blink micro is pretty strong in battles in general(you can look pretty cool while doing it too, its basically super flashy goon dancing) and it becomes insanely good when you can do it around force field blocks. + Show Spoiler + cute story. i had a stalker army with nullifier support against some player (decent, not great) who had a bunch of zealots with charge. he ran in, they autosurrounded my stalkers in a tight passage so i was basically fucked. cast 4 forcefields, completely trapping both our armies between 2 pairs, and then blinked half my stalkers out on each side. killed all the zeals and only lost a couple of stalkers. i can kinda see why blizzard thought little micro tricks like that could be substitutes for manual macro walking/blinking over cliffs + warping in allows you to attack just about anywhere at any time, lots of fun harass potential(as well as the ability to get a pretty strong army inside their base really fast, dropping a phase prism and making a round from your warp gates is like a slightly smaller mid game recall, basically). dont know how effective it will be vs good players, but i think it will end up like sc1, where you cant really defend against all potential harass cost effectively. it might not be as exciting as reaver drops but it feels like theyre going to manage to maintain some of the fast paced high risk/reward harass options we're used to. zerg has a similar ability with the nydus worms. its insanely easy to get one into their base if you keep them busy elsewhere (if you arent watching your base the moment the overlord drops creep/dont have static defense everywhere the nydus worm is going to finish, it just happens so fast). i didnt get to try much with terrans, i heard marine + medivac drops were really good though. you can also play straight up, just macroing and overrunning them. fast expo seemed viable, but i didnt face any hard allins from good players, the 5 minerals/gather thing messes with the timing a bit but its not too much. cannons seemed to get a bit of a buff but thats just subjective, i didnt check any of the numbers. after a succesful fast expo its pretty easy to just run them over since you can macro perfectly (more on that later). fast exp was my main build pvz as if you get into mid/late game with an econ advantage theyre fucked since collosi rape zerg once you get 3-4 or more up. zeal/collosus played like the new zealot/archon, pretty strong and versatile. vs someone who abuses banelings its not as good though, collosi dont put out damage fast enough to protect your zeals, and once theyre down the collosi follow pretty quick. more immortal/stalker heavy armys cleans up pretty well vs that though, either just absorbing it on immortal shields or blink micro with stalkers. cyber cores cost 100 gas now, really fucks up pvp imo. (other mus too i suppose, but i noticed it most pvp). you cannot go zeal first from your main. the most efficient stalker rush build (which is actually a gas before gateway build, as far as i can tell) gets a stalker out just a little bit after the first zealot gets to your base, normal probe micro + the stalker takes out the zeal. zeal protoss then just get overpowered, since you have to get your own 100 gas before making a cyber and getting stalkers. (stalkers can take zeals pretty easy with normal old goon dancing, without blink). but if you center 2 gate zealot you can overpower someone doing a stalker rush, so its pretty much rock paper scissors atm. pvt i didnt play many games that i could learn anything from, all the good people i played used p/z. infantry is definitely way stronger now, 2 rax marines beat the stalker equivalent of sc1 dragoon opening pvt, zealots can hold the marines but marine/maurader rapes the shit out of zealots. not sure how the timing works out for zealot/stalker vs marine/maurader, but the maurader's slowing thing makes zealots pretty much useless (esp once marines get their upgrades), so i wouldnt count on it being very good. i woulda liked to play more against good terrans, i never really worked out what the best opening was. i think it might end up being cannon + fe since tanks are more expensive now. interface: some of the automicroing features that theyre building in are a bit upsetting, stuff like autosurround is the micro version of mbs but that might just be a result of the improved (much, much improved) pathing. it would be nice if we could get rid of them but i kind of think thats a lost cause, and the automatic macro features are far more worrying. as for mbs, it makes a huge difference. like others have said with the current build you go 5zzzzzsssss to make 5 zeals and 5 stalkers. its a bit of a compromise but to be honest its not much better than 5z6s=5 zeal 5 stalker. with that system you have to have seperate sets of gateways on different hotkeys in order to make different units (or you have production rounds of only one unit, which is bad in alot of situations) and to modify the ratios of units you have to go back to your base and change the gateway groupings. as it is there is absolutely no reason to go back to your base except to build buildings. im not sure if blizzard was missing that point or just didnt care, but its irrelevant how hard you make the execution of mbs (5tabztabztabz or whatever), if you dont have to go back to your base its still going to make the game worse because you dont force the tradeoff between micro/macro that keeps starcraft diverse. automining was also huge, especially given the combination with mbs. 0eeee and your entire economy is taken care of, instead of sc where you have to change screen locations 4 times, click each nexus, and click/gather each new probe. honestly that is probably bigger than the unit production aspect of mbs. any half decent player can now have perfect econ management. (i dont mean expo timing and the like, that is still a skill. im referring to the mechanics of running your economy) overall the gameplay is very fun and, i think, has the potential to be just as good a competitive game as sc1(if not better), theres alot of stuff that i could see being overpowered or underpowered, but thats not going to change until they get good players playing it on a large scale so its pointless to worry about at the moment. but they really need to stop focusing on modernizing the interface. it wont be immediately apparent at first, because everyone will be busy trying to figure out how to play the game, but once we start figuring out efficient build orders and strategies (and everyone starts using them), i think its going to become pretty apparent how badly these features limit the skill cap. hopefully blizzard sees that coming and is willing to take them out despite the fact that they arent immediately game breaking. the fact that they are experimenting with mbs is a good sign in that direction, i hope. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
You keep saying late game sucked because you always lacked gas. Is that because it was to hard to keep renewing all extractors over and over? So overall the new gas system sucked? Oh and was that thing that allows you to put extra workers on gas every 2min there? Good? Thanks again for the help man | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 22:23 IdrA wrote: automining was also huge, especially given the combination with mbs. 0eeee and your entire economy is taken care of, instead of sc where you have to change screen locations 4 times, click each nexus, and click/gather each new probe. honestly that is probably bigger than the unit production aspect of mbs. any half decent player can now have perfect econ management. (i dont mean expo timing and the like, that is still a skill. im referring to the mechanics of running your economy) overall the gameplay is very fun and, i think, has the potential to be just as good a competitive game as sc1(if not better), theres alot of stuff that i could see being overpowered or underpowered, but thats not going to change until they get good players playing it on a large scale so its pointless to worry about at the moment. but they really need to stop focusing on modernizing the interface. it wont be immediately apparent at first, because everyone will be busy trying to figure out how to play the game, but once we start figuring out efficient build orders and strategies (and everyone starts using them), i think its going to become pretty apparent how badly these features limit the skill cap. hopefully blizzard sees that coming and is willing to take them out despite the fact that they arent immediately game breaking. the fact that they are experimenting with mbs is a good sign in that direction, i hope. I'm totally with you on this one, pretty much sums up what ive been spamming in this thread and advocating at our TL meets in Paris. Great post, also good meeting you irl and having some drinks :D. | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 22:25 VIB wrote: hmmm... the larvas sound really good for proxy rushes. Many BOs will prolly include strategic larva creation. Keep pumping larvas and sending them to the enemy door. Once your tech is complete (hydra/muta/infestor whatever) you build many in no time right at his door. You trade money for speed and pressure, a good trade when you wanna punish someone for going FE or something risky. You keep saying late game sucked because you always lacked gas. Is that because it was to hard to keep renewing all extractors over and over? So overall the new gas system sucked? Oh and was that thing that allows you to put extra workers on gas every 2min there? Good? Thanks again for the help man That seems to be a misconception, the gas system worked like this: once a geyser depleted an option apeared once you selected them which allowed you to spend minerals to undeplete it for a little while which also triggered a cooldown on the ability. I generally liked it but that was especially cause all geysers just had 1000 gas in them on every map that was playable except the golden mineral expos where geysers had 1500 (but mine at the normal rate, there isnt any high yield gas geyser yet that we could play). I think they made everything low amounts of gas geysers so people would actually discover and explore the gas mechanic. The lack of having a good amount of non depleted geysers was mostly the problem to succesfully access endgame tech I felt, that and the fact that I didnt have a single game that really went to endgame. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5362 Posts
No, Dustin Browder explained that they're gonna implement either of them but not both. | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 22:39 maybenexttime wrote: "Oh and was that thing that allows you to put extra workers on gas every 2min there?" No, Dustin Browder explained that they're gonna implement either of them but not both. Yeah in the build we played it wasn't implemented. I prefer the one that was implemented (even though it requires no effort since you can just put all your geysers under 1 hotkey and spam it whenever it comes up again), as it exchanges a limited resource for an unlimited one which is at the very least interesting (for me) and it makes these low gas geysers + that an interesting map features. | ||
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VIB
Brazil3567 Posts
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 22:55 VIB wrote: Oh so you're saying that the gas rate from 2 gas in sc2 in less than the gas rate from 1 gas in sc1, if both are not depleted? Affirmative, 2 gas is like 1.5 gas or a bit less in SCBW. Allows for alot of deviation in strats I guess and in map design/balancing. edit: on an additional note, all the map we played started out with 2 geysers in main subsequently. | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5396 Posts
What does it require to build? (I think before it was Barracks and Factory?) Is it 1 food? Does it come with the slowing AoE attack? (Could you explain exactly how it works?) Lastly, are they stimmable and healable? | ||
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Nyovne
Netherlands19125 Posts
On July 01 2008 23:26 SoleSteeler wrote: I'm a little bit confused as to how the Marauder works. What does it require to build? (I think before it was Barracks and Factory?) Is it 1 food? Does it come with the slowing AoE attack? (Could you explain exactly how it works?) Lastly, are they stimmable and healable? It builds from the barracks and it requires nothing but a barracks with an attached techlab. I dont know if it's 1 food, hope someone else can clarify on that? Totally forgot to pay attention to most details while I was playing T or P. They come with a small aoe slowing attack yes, and it's increadibly powerful from the looks of it. They are not stimmable but yes they are healable 150 hp 1 armor 16 aoe +6dmg vs armored aoe slowing huge powercombatsuited bastards. Their cost of 150/50 seemed alot but I dunno how it plays out in a proper build, when I played good terrans they seemed to have a decent army size with a couple of the bastards backing up their marines. Aka, they rock :D. | ||
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