Hey there. Since apparently noone else was recording the SC2 matches, I decided to record them. However, I did not have enough time to set it up because the game had already started (So I didn't record the first 2 - 3 minutes of the first match). Because I didn't have time to set it up, I had to use my crappy microphone to record the sound, resulting in a pretty bad sound quality, and silly typing and yawning noises I make, so for that I apologise.
The file was too big/long for me to upload it to youtube (I'm sorry, if you can upload it to youtube feel free to do so and post it in this thread so I can update it). But for now I have uploaded it to megaupload. Link - [url blocked] .
I hope you enjoy it and once again, I apologise for the sound quality.
P.S. If a better version gets uploaded just tell me so and I will delete mine.
It's pretty cool, but alot of things are still very hard to make out. I had trouble seeing those spine crawlers because they blended into the creep too much.
Just watched the vid. Damn, I want to play this game so badly now.
just a little review for some of you who are wondering about the quality of this vid.
picture 7.5/10 (pictures are clear, units are visible, although you cant read the writing) sound 4/10 (some noise in the background, speech is clear but each time they say something its followed by some static? like noise)
Am uploading the vid to google vids, 36mb done...so hopefully won't take to long..(and if someone else is uploading it also and finishes before me, do post it here lol)
On June 30 2008 05:29 LordofToast wrote: Awesome camera work. Did you use a tripod or something?
No it was an impromptu idea by blizzard to put some sc2 matches up on the live stream. So I quickly got Camtasia and started recording >_> I tried to make it record just the computer sounds but it didn't work for some reason so I quickly got my microphone.
First it was... someone named I think Alexander vs "Mirko"? (EDIT: Aka noob)hot() Second was Mirko vs Karune (Kevin Yu, blizzard community reprsentative) 3rd was Sylvano (sp?) or G.s)Naruto vs some blizzard employee named Steven/Stephen (I think)?
Miracle (P) (AKA Alexander something) VS Naruto (T) (Silvanos something) Miracle (P) VS Random blizzard employee (P) Naruto (T) VS Other random blizzard employee (Z)
On June 30 2008 05:58 FrozenArbiter wrote: First it was... someone named I think Alexander vs "Mirko"? Second was Mirko vs Karune (Kevin Yu, blizzard community reprsentative) 3rd was Sylvano (sp?) or G.s)Naruto vs some blizzard employee named Steven/Stephen (I think)?
Stephen Chang, he's part of the Blizz e-sports team.
On June 30 2008 05:29 LordofToast wrote: Awesome camera work. Did you use a tripod or something?
No it was an impromptu idea by blizzard to put some sc2 matches up on the live stream. So I quickly got Camtasia and started recording >_> I tried to make it record just the computer sounds but it didn't work for some reason so I quickly got my microphone.
Did I hear your mirc dialing in the vid? I lol'd so hard.
On June 30 2008 05:29 LordofToast wrote: Awesome camera work. Did you use a tripod or something?
No it was an impromptu idea by blizzard to put some sc2 matches up on the live stream. So I quickly got Camtasia and started recording >_> I tried to make it record just the computer sounds but it didn't work for some reason so I quickly got my microphone.
Did I hear your mirc dialing in the vid? I lol'd so hard.
Yes you did lol. I got disconnected. I logged off of msn just to ensure no beeping sounds from people talking to me and mirc starts re-dialing. I was pissed! lol.
I thought these games were alot of fun to watch. The units seemed clear and easy to identify and to me at least looked great from a spectators PoV. Medivacs seemed quite cool in it.
My only gripe was that there wernt any higher tiered units used and that the colour for the guy you are observing always being green was really confusing and I hope they change this.
Was anyone else annoyed by how the zealots clumped together all the time? Doesn't bother me with certain units (like tanks), but clumped zealots or marines I find irritating to look at. Maybe it's just me.
You can't really tell from the youtube vid but something I just noticed from the downloadable version of this is that minerals 'glow' when units are mining them (no I'm not just looking at the probes beams the zerg drones cause it to glow also).
On June 30 2008 13:32 Chuiu wrote: You can't really tell from the youtube vid but something I just noticed from the downloadable version of this is that minerals 'glow' when units are mining them (no I'm not just looking at the probes beams the zerg drones cause it to glow also).
Yes, and I think the colours fade as your minerals get mined out, just like your gas turns red.
Is it really this hard to tell one unit from the other or is it just the video quality?
I mean I saw screenshots and I know how stuff life stalkers and immortals look. But on that video it's really hard to tell one from the other. Was even not easy to tell zerglings from roaches.
- Red assimilator. I think that wasn't the gas running out, but rather that toggleable ability where you can collect gas twice as quickly using twice the amount of peons for a brief amount of time. I could be wrong though.
- Medivac Dropship. After seeing it in action I really have changed my mind about this unit. At first it seemed like it didn't belong at all and was a silly idea, but it's an incredibly versatile unit and packed with micro potential.
Very interesting games, the third one most of all, and I'm definitely looking forward to SC2 now more than ever. Cheers to Dustin Browder and his team.
The medivac does look better than I thought it would but I still want to know how not having a medic affects terran early game..
- Are marines able to attack (effectively) pre-medivac? - Are the medivacs annoying when you have a big army (ie do they fly back and forth)? - How does marine/marauder do vs things like mass lings or vs static defense?
In the game between Naruto and Stephen Chang (the ZvT), Naruto managed to sneak a bunch of marines into the zerg main but they died fairly easily to less than a handful of drones and some lings. If these same marines had been accompanied by a medic............. Basically, don't you feel you lose a lot of the whole "hero marines" thing?
Overall I think the game looks fantastic, medivac or no medivac.
For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell.
On June 30 2008 16:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: The medivac does look better than I thought it would but I still want to know how not having a medic affects terran early game..
- Are marines able to attack (effectively) pre-medivac? - Are the medivacs annoying when you have a big army (ie do they fly back and forth)? - How does marine/marauder do vs things like mass lings or vs static defense?
In the game between Naruto and Stephen Chang (the ZvT), Naruto managed to sneak a bunch of marines into the zerg main but they died fairly easily to less than a handful of drones and some lings. If these same marines had been accompanied by a medic............. Basically, don't you feel you lose a lot of the whole "hero marines" thing?
Overall I think the game looks fantastic, medivac or no medivac.
Since I played quiet a few games and you especially have questions about my game I'm going to answer and talk about some things. Ok first of all the games:
Game 1: Mirko ( noob)hot( ) vs Alexander ( french guy, forgot his nick ) Game 2: Mirko ( noob)hot( ) vs Kevin Yu (Karune) Game3: Silvano (myself) vs Steven Chang (hope its written correctly) (another Blizzard guy)
Ok about your questions FrozenArbiter:
- Yes, Marines definately can attack before you have a medivac. You can add stim pack and +10 hp on them, so they are quiet good. (They are awesome against Protoss, you can micro against a 2 gate rush with just 1 barracks and it works, at least for me).
- No, they range for healing is quiet good. They don't fly around like crazy. Actually I was really "scared" about how it does work and how it will play out, but when I played, the medivac was awesome. Don't worry
- I didn't have any game with marine/marauder vs mass ling, but I can tell marine/marauder just destroys zealots/stalkers. Also Banshees are AWESOME against zerglings. As far as I can tell, for Terran vs Zerg you can - at least at the moment - use a little bit changed broodwar builds while you cannot use them in Terran vs Protoss. You have to play really bionic heavy in terran vs protoss.
On June 30 2008 23:00 VIB wrote: For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell.
I'm not sure if this actually works, but you can use the nullifier to rush up a ramp with your force and actually block of this ramp, so he cannot enter his base while you are wracking havoc.
On June 30 2008 23:00 VIB wrote: For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell.
I'm not sure if this actually works, but you can use the nullifier to rush up a ramp with your force and actually block of this ramp, so he cannot enter his base while you are wracking havoc.
From what ive read, units will not be pushed out of force field but they can be told to walk out. Once they have left however they cannot walk past it/in it.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing?
I think its so awesome that TL gets this kind of respect and response from Blizzard that Mani can officially cast the Starcraft 2 games with tasteless. That's just unbelievably awesome. great job mani. Probably expect a lot more traffic here after wwi from all that exposure...
edit: holy crap was that music in the background in game?
The music they were playing was the Warcraft III soundtrack. The only SC2 music we've heard was a brief part of the terran music in the single player demo almost a year ago.
On June 30 2008 16:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: The medivac does look better than I thought it would but I still want to know how not having a medic affects terran early game..
- Are marines able to attack (effectively) pre-medivac? - Are the medivacs annoying when you have a big army (ie do they fly back and forth)? - How does marine/marauder do vs things like mass lings or vs static defense?
In the game between Naruto and Stephen Chang (the ZvT), Naruto managed to sneak a bunch of marines into the zerg main but they died fairly easily to less than a handful of drones and some lings. If these same marines had been accompanied by a medic............. Basically, don't you feel you lose a lot of the whole "hero marines" thing?
Overall I think the game looks fantastic, medivac or no medivac.
I played about 15hours + of SC2 in 2 days haha, over 70 games but mostly zerg (75%ish) and I'll do abig writeup about it later this week when I catch some sleep and have the time and can be arsed to do it :p.
Marines with stim and shield are STRONG, especially cause they start out with the range upgrade (there is none). That with the new pathing makes them rly nasty. 4 rines can easily handle 2 zeals with micro, add marauders to that mix and they get really really really nasty plus you can make about a million man marine march in notime with marauder support if you go 1 rax with reactor and 1 rax with tech lab. From there add tanks or ghosts (which are SO GOOD but so expensive, 200 gas for example) and take it from there.
Medivacs got a huge ass heal range and they fly really fast to and fro, that + they fly and have no cluttering going on make them a whooolleeee lot more effective then medics atm and medivacs healing 150 hp 1 armor marauders is brutal vs alot of things.
Anyways ill post about this later but it'll be mostly about zerg I guess.
On June 30 2008 16:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: The medivac does look better than I thought it would but I still want to know how not having a medic affects terran early game..
- Are marines able to attack (effectively) pre-medivac? - Are the medivacs annoying when you have a big army (ie do they fly back and forth)? - How does marine/marauder do vs things like mass lings or vs static defense?
In the game between Naruto and Stephen Chang (the ZvT), Naruto managed to sneak a bunch of marines into the zerg main but they died fairly easily to less than a handful of drones and some lings. If these same marines had been accompanied by a medic............. Basically, don't you feel you lose a lot of the whole "hero marines" thing?
Overall I think the game looks fantastic, medivac or no medivac.
Since I played quiet a few games and you especially have questions about my game I'm going to answer and talk about some things. Ok first of all the games:
Game 1: Mirko ( noob)hot( ) vs Alexander ( french guy, forgot his nick ) Game 2: Mirko ( noob)hot( ) vs Kevin Yu (Karune) Game3: Silvano (myself) vs Steven Chang (hope its written correctly) (another Blizzard guy)
Ok about your questions FrozenArbiter:
- Yes, Marines definately can attack before you have a medivac. You can add stim pack and +10 hp on them, so they are quiet good. (They are awesome against Protoss, you can micro against a 2 gate rush with just 1 barracks and it works, at least for me).
- No, they range for healing is quiet good. They don't fly around like crazy. Actually I was really "scared" about how it does work and how it will play out, but when I played, the medivac was awesome. Don't worry
- I didn't have any game with marine/marauder vs mass ling, but I can tell marine/marauder just destroys zealots/stalkers. Also Banshees are AWESOME against zerglings. As far as I can tell, for Terran vs Zerg you can - at least at the moment - use a little bit changed broodwar builds while you cannot use them in Terran vs Protoss. You have to play really bionic heavy in terran vs protoss.
If you have further questions, just ask or PM.
Could you please tell us more about range indicator? Is it permanently turned on or is holding some key needed? What happens when multiple circles can be seen? Is it restricted to only few ranged units or do all have it?
On June 30 2008 23:00 VIB wrote: For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell.
I'm not sure if this actually works, but you can use the nullifier to rush up a ramp with your force and actually block of this ramp, so he cannot enter his base while you are wracking havoc.
Haha yeah Kal tried to do this while he dropped my main with 1 HT 1 archon and 1 nullifier, sucks for him that I had my nydus warren in my main so that fun ended quickly, especially with my huge queen with 2 corruptor aids taking down that phase prism before he could gay up my main with warpins.
On June 30 2008 23:00 VIB wrote: For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell.
I'm not sure if this actually works, but you can use the nullifier to rush up a ramp with your force and actually block of this ramp, so he cannot enter his base while you are wracking havoc.
Haha yeah Kal tried to do this while he dropped my main with 1 HT 1 archon and 1 nullifier, sucks for him that I had my nydus warren in my main so that fun ended quickly, especially with my huge queen with 2 corruptor aids taking down that phase prism before he could gay up my main with warpins.
Naruto ruleessss btw ^^;;
oooo about Corruptors
What is needed to do infestation on other units? Is some number of hits needed or after targeted unit is just weak enough 1 attack infestates it???
On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote: Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing?
First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers.
Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE.
MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha!
Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something .
On June 30 2008 23:00 VIB wrote: For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell.
I'm not sure if this actually works, but you can use the nullifier to rush up a ramp with your force and actually block of this ramp, so he cannot enter his base while you are wracking havoc.
Haha yeah Kal tried to do this while he dropped my main with 1 HT 1 archon and 1 nullifier, sucks for him that I had my nydus warren in my main so that fun ended quickly, especially with my huge queen with 2 corruptor aids taking down that phase prism before he could gay up my main with warpins.
Naruto ruleessss btw ^^;;
oooo about Corruptors
What is needed to do infestation on other units? Is some number of hits needed or after targeted unit is just weak enough 1 attack infestates it???
They need to have the killing blow. Corruptors fuckin suck huge dick. The only redeeming virtue is that they require just a lair to build and aren't that expensive at all. Infestation lasts like 10 sec max as well and have some hive level upgrade to make it last 5 sec (it felt like that) longer (boojah). Rly with they would make corruptors a proper support unit that debuffs a target or a weaker and cheaper 1 psi air skirmisher, atm they felt terrible it play for so many reasons.
I missed scourges as hell .
Funniest shit ever is to 1 warp-ray rush a zerg. Do the math why.
Oh yeah MBS didnt feel like a problem at all funnily enough, just the automining is sick sick sick as hell while I was thinking it would be the other way around lol. Especially for T and P where later on when you prolly have a gas shortage and little mineral exess you can just queue them up.
On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote: Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing?
First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers.
Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE.
MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha!
Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something .
Thanks for all the great info. That's a significant step better than what I thought MBS was going to be (as in, select gateways hotkey, press Z once). Interesting that Marines will 'easily' outmicro Zealots. That is until Charge is researched x.x
After watching those three games, a lot of my faith in SC2 has been restored
can you talk a little more about what you think about Marauders? I'm a little in the dark about what this unit exactly is supposed to accomplish. Find any use for it TvZ?
On July 01 2008 03:44 Krzycho wrote: Naruto did you find any imbalanced in the current game?
Some things felt overpowered till I let go of my "broodwar" mindset which I lost after about the first 3-5 games. When I went in with a clean slate to make things work nothing felt overpowered to me myself somethings are just rly rly strong.
Some units are statistically overpowered, especially collossi. But they are hard to get as long as you pressure the P during the game, and if he 1 base techs to them you can just take 3-4 bases yourself easily and swarm his ass with superior numbers.
If you can fast play 2 base as P and get 3-4 collossi you're pretty much unstoppable at this moment though if the other guy doesn't have like at LEAST 2 more bases and the proper selection and amount of units to deal with them. Collossi really felt like they were too fast. Some people from Blizz TV were interviewing me about them and how I felt about them, I kinda answered that they were fine to deal with since they arent easy to available through tech and are rly expensive so they are hard to mass but they felt like Reavers on crack with jetpacks that can shoot over terrain elevations.
All in all the game felt really fine, the 2 things that felt dangerously strong to me were collossi and the time it takes to gurge creep from an OL, spawn a nydus worm and pop a unit out. I timed it to a grand total of 6-7 seconds from floating in my lord in his main and my first banelings popping out into his mineral line. The OL creep generation is fine but the nydus worm spawn should really take 5 seconds (maybe 1 more) instead of the 3 it currently seems to be.
But then again the game is so much more mobile and units can appear so much easier anywhere on the map that you're asking for trouble if you don't leave a squad of units around your main bases and a defensive structure or two. Let alone allowing that first slow scouting lord to just hover closely around your main or expansion till he's ready to fly it in and nydus worm your ass.
On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote: Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing?
First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers.
Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE.
MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha!
Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something .
Omg that's what I (and several others) suggested for MBS waaaaaaaaaaay back when it was first announced.. Has it always been that way and nobody bothered mentioning it ?
I actually don't mind MBS nearly as much if that's how it works.
On June 30 2008 23:00 VIB wrote: For anyone who has been on WWI. Can you use the nullifier force shield ability on top of enemy units to force them to spread out? So could you use it to harass a peon line?
Those nullifiers are something I'm really looking forward, they look fun as hell.
I'm not sure if this actually works, but you can use the nullifier to rush up a ramp with your force and actually block of this ramp, so he cannot enter his base while you are wracking havoc.
Haha yeah Kal tried to do this while he dropped my main with 1 HT 1 archon and 1 nullifier, sucks for him that I had my nydus warren in my main so that fun ended quickly, especially with my huge queen with 2 corruptor aids taking down that phase prism before he could gay up my main with warpins.
Naruto ruleessss btw ^^;;
oooo about Corruptors
What is needed to do infestation on other units? Is some number of hits needed or after targeted unit is just weak enough 1 attack infestates it???
They need to have the killing blow. Corruptors fuckin suck huge dick. The only redeeming virtue is that they require just a lair to build and aren't that expensive at all. Infestation lasts like 10 sec max as well and have some hive level upgrade to make it last 5 sec (it felt like that) longer (boojah). Rly with they would make corruptors a proper support unit that debuffs a target or a weaker and cheaper 1 psi air skirmisher, atm they felt terrible it play for so many reasons.
I missed scourges as hell .
Funniest shit ever is to 1 warp-ray rush a zerg. Do the math why.
Oh yeah MBS didnt feel like a problem at all funnily enough, just the automining is sick sick sick as hell while I was thinking it would be the other way around lol. Especially for T and P where later on when you prolly have a gas shortage and little mineral exess you can just queue them up.
Hm, explain the warp ray thing plz. The warp ray still does more and more damage the longer you hit a certain unit right? I don't really get why it's so great vs zerg - lack of anti-air? Trouble taking it down with their early air units?
I really dunno the specs of the warp ray so hard to do the math =P
On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote: Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing?
First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers.
Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE.
MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha!
Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something .
Thanks for all the great info. That's a significant step better than what I thought MBS was going to be (as in, select gateways hotkey, press Z once). Interesting that Marines will 'easily' outmicro Zealots. That is until Charge is researched x.x
After watching those three games, a lot of my faith in SC2 has been restored
can you talk a little more about what you think about Marauders? I'm a little in the dark about what this unit exactly is supposed to accomplish. Find any use for it TvZ?
Yes, smart casting hasn't been an issue for me either since you can't select all your units and tab through the different kind of units that are in the control group like you can in WC3/TFT. You'll multi group anyway to have battlefield control/flanking.
Charge is RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE, lets leave it at that ^^. Such a great ability (it's in the same spot as leg enhancements are atm alongside with the stalker blink upgrade).
Marauders are sick units. They are really fookin good allthough a tad expensive. I'm not yet decided about their mineral cost (150mins) which felt like it should be more around 125, maybe even 100. But then again I had them used against me by two really (as far as you can be skilled atm) terrans, including Sea)shield and they both used them to great effect, not as much vs the lings but more vs the banelings to slow them down and then stim split your marines while focussing them down before they can rape your ass. For the rest they absolutely RAPE zeals and are a MUST vs roaches. Without marauders you don't even stand a fighting chance vs 3 hatch Roach as terran. Especially once you burrow (strongest ability in game currently along with warp-in) micro them.
p.s. 100 gas for a cyber core is rediculous and ling funnel enemies into a burrowed baneling ambush is more sex then hold lurker ever was (oh lurkers actually had a hold posis command button in this build).
On July 01 2008 01:34 VIB wrote: Thanks a lot for the help Naruto.
How did you feel about hit and running? It's a common concern, we've seen videos of people trying to kill zealots with the new vultures like they would in BW, but failed. I can't tell if the player were bad or if it's harder to micro in sc2. Things like shoot, run, shoot, run with jackals instead of vulters or stalkers instead of goons against melee. Does it feels the same? Does it has the same power?
Also how did mbs/automine impact your play? Did it make too much difference that you could sit down with your arms crossed having nothing to do half the game or was it a minor unnoticed thing?
First of all, don't get afraid. Starcraft 2 really feels like Starcraft. I don't think we played it on fastest as it just didn't seem like that. Hit and run works fine. You can easily outmicro zealots with marines. I think its a little bit hard to micro marines against zerglings, especially with speed upgrade, but thats just how it was in Starcraft, right? Hit and run works really well and you can even use blink to buy some time to probably rebuild units while the opponent is chasing your stalkers.
Jackals have that flamethrower attack, I think thats why it doesn't work. Its not like a ranged attack but more like a melee attack with AoE.
MBS and automine.. well. You can tell from my on stage game that I didn't use MBS at all. I used to hotkey my barracks 3,4,5,6.. and about automining, I did the rally point in front of the minerals, not on them, so I didn't use automining either, haha!
Actually MBS works like, if you have 4 gateways / factories whatever on one hotkey, you have to for example press "Z" for zealot 4 times to make all gateways build one, its not that bad and you really get a great overview with a little graphics about it. And I think even if you use automining and MBS it wouldn't change too much. Actually I think automining is more helpfull than MBS to newbies, because MBS just changes: 3t4t5v6v7v8v9v0v to 3ttvvvvvv . You still have to choose what units you are going to build and the unit combinations in Starcraft 2 seem like to feature lots of different units, so MBS wont be a stupid 3zzzzzzzz or something .
Omg that's what I (and several others) suggested for MBS waaaaaaaaaaay back when it was first announced.. Has it always been that way and nobody bothered mentioning it ?
I actually don't mind MBS nearly as much if that's how it works.
I'm getting more and more hopeful about sc2
MBS didn't annoy me once which surprised the hell out of me, automining did, which also surprised the hell out of me lol.
But yeah the way unit selection / MBS works atm especially with the unit selection limit had a good feel to it.
The game feels SO like a starcraft game, it's incredible.
On a VERY important point, I had no problems seeing what was going on on the battle field with the flashy graphics. Was really np to follow for me, only 4-5 tanks creating a fireline can create some confusion whats going on but thats 99.9% chance that the only thing ur not seeing is the death animation of your unitsbelow them.
Siege tank firelines are sick as hell, they rock so hard :D. The splash kills soooooooooo sick hard haha.
Hehe FA, zerg has some troubles getting anti air except for a Queen to scare a scouting enemy overlord off and spores (even though relocatable) are a huge investment to prevent like 1-2 strats.
The way it works revolves around a) the fact that zerg most likely has no anti air, and b) a single warpray kills a hatchery in about 20 seconds? So you fly it in, kill his main hatch, float to his expo, kill that one. GG
It's the funniest shit ever if they don't see it comming (which none of the randoms who were playing did). If you thought you'd make someone rage by DT rushing them you ain't seen shit yet haha. They all go apeshit at you in chat when you do it^^. They lose all their main buildings under 60 sec to 1 unit.
Also holy shit marauder has 150 hp? It looks like a beast but apparently it's not just looks.
How did the Thor and its revival work? In the demo they seemed to auto-repair themselves once dead, I'd have thought you needed to send an scv in or something.
On July 01 2008 04:10 FrozenArbiter wrote: LOL 20 SECONDS?!? :D
Also holy shit marauder has 150 hp? It looks like a beast but apparently it's not just looks.
How did the Thor and its revival work? In the demo they seemed to auto-repair themselves once dead, I'd have thought you needed to send an scv in or something.
Btw thanks so much for these posts!
Yeah marauders are 150 hp, 1 armor, 16 dmg + 6 vs armored, aoe slowing beasts. Them + 50hp stimmed rines are hardcore. Let alone when endgame medivacs start healing 150 hp, 4 armor infantry tt.
Dunno about the thor, I never played terran past midgame.
Ghosts are soooooooooo strong though, damnnnn snipe is the shit and midgame cloak vs not that much (mobile) detection in the game as SCBW makes them great great harass units. 2 ghosts pretty much take out any tier 1 units and workers with a single shot from both at long range. The energy using units radar is funny but nothing awsome except to defend your base vs burrowing infestors.
Snipe at +150 dmg vs biological takes care of any templar, one shots mutas, ultras get spanked by it, the works. But they are expensive, 100 mins, 200 gas, but they are 100hp 1 armor, hardcore mofo's. Real roaming assasins now, great great for harassing and available midgame.
Combine that with EMP grenades on them and they won my heart straight away. Not sure about their gas costs though, it's a bit steep but didn't play it enough to find out their real bang for their buck.
I should really write up one huge post about my SC2 zerg experiences and blog about T and P tbh. Loads of beef where I got strong feelings (good mostly) about.
How do Zerg deal with Olord's being harassed now from Phoenix/Vikings? Without much AA do they still get by well? Do only Overseer's have the speed upgrade, or can you still research Olord speed from Lair?
On July 01 2008 04:18 Ideas wrote: How do Zerg deal with Olord's being harassed now from Phoenix/Vikings? Without much AA do they still get by well? Do only Overseer's have the speed upgrade, or can you still research Olord speed from Lair?
I didnt see a single phoenix, I did get marine, marauder, attacked by some random terran who seemed to be a skilled SCBW player who was pushing my expo while adding 2-3 vikings to hunt lords and prevent a offensive nydus in his base while adding ghosts/nukes. 2 spores and my large queen took care of that pretty easily though, dunno if you'd rush vikings, youd kill alot of lords I guess but your eco ( no exp) and unit count would suck I think. They are pretty weak vs roaches with banelings (which was my preferred unit combo with some speed lings in the mix vs T).
Overseers once morphed have instantly a higher speed so no need to research it. Overlords (normal ones) still have a seperate speed grade at lair level.
On an important note, the new Hydras are so good vs armor and anti air. They absolutely rape anything that flies but are expensive especially on gas, I think they should be 100/50 not 100/100.
On July 01 2008 03:44 Krzycho wrote: Naruto did you find any imbalanced in the current game?
Some things felt overpowered till I let go of my "broodwar" mindset which I lost after about the first 3-5 games. When I went in with a clean slate to make things work nothing felt overpowered to me myself somethings are just rly rly strong.
Some units are statistically overpowered, especially collossi. But they are hard to get as long as you pressure the P during the game, and if he 1 base techs to them you can just take 3-4 bases yourself easily and swarm his ass with superior numbers.
If you can fast play 2 base as P and get 3-4 collossi you're pretty much unstoppable at this moment though if the other guy doesn't have like at LEAST 2 more bases and the proper selection and amount of units to deal with them. Collossi really felt like they were too fast. Some people from Blizz TV were interviewing me about them and how I felt about them, I kinda answered that they were fine to deal with since they arent easy to available through tech and are rly expensive so they are hard to mass but they felt like Reavers on crack with jetpacks that can shoot over terrain elevations.
All in all the game felt really fine, the 2 things that felt dangerously strong to me were collossi and the time it takes to gurge creep from an OL, spawn a nydus worm and pop a unit out. I timed it to a grand total of 6-7 seconds from floating in my lord in his main and my first banelings popping out into his mineral line. The OL creep generation is fine but the nydus worm spawn should really take 5 seconds (maybe 1 more) instead of the 3 it currently seems to be.
But then again the game is so much more mobile and units can appear so much easier anywhere on the map that you're asking for trouble if you don't leave a squad of units around your main bases and a defensive structure or two. Let alone allowing that first slow scouting lord to just hover closely around your main or expansion till he's ready to fly it in and nydus worm your ass.
On July 01 2008 04:25 Ideas wrote: Did you get to use Ultralisks at all? What are their cost/specs?
I did but just in a game where I was finishing someone off so they didn't really see "battlefield experience" so to speak.
They are 300/400 (yes 400 gas tt) cost, 6 psi (like the thor and collossus as their counterparts I guess). They have 600 hp, 1 armor, 25 dmg with a full dmg cleave which is rly nice. This all sounds great but gas in SC2 is a bit slower endgame for my feel then it was in SCBW, this is probably largely due to the fact that blizzard just created 1000gas geysers so people would explore the new gas mechanic once they deplete. If you could actually get 6 geysers (like 3-4ish in SCBW) at the same time that weren't depleted they could actually be alot more affordable. At the maps that were in the game at the time, if you actually were playing a good game Hive tech was not readily massable due to the lack of gas so that twisted off my endgame feel and leaves it totally unreliable a judgement about it on my part.
Would have liked to play a normal 5000 geyser map or something in that direction so that you actually increase your gas gain alot instead of just relocating it to a new fresh expo (plus the depleted gas mining offcourse) so see how it would open up endgame.
My biggest beef with Ultras which look WICKED COOL imho is that they are slow as snails and there wasn't a speed grade in sight. They are as slow as they look, not neccisarily a bad thing offcourse but it just screwed with my BW feel about their speed with speed grade. Now they are big lumbering tanks/meatshields and they look it and got the HP buff (+50% compared to SCBW) to work that role to the fullest.
In the end Ultras felt good, aoe cleaving tank units and they *seem* to be doing just that. Just the 300/400 costs and especially the gas cost seemed incredibly steep but like I said that probably has to do with the lowgas gain at endgame unless you could take alot of new geysers at the same time which doesn't seem possible in a real game vs an opponent who takes the fight to you.
p.s. there still is a 2 armor grade for ultras at the cavern.
What do you think about roaches? On the SC2 first streamed game they did seem to be really really slow. What speed did you play on? Was it normal or fastest?
On July 01 2008 04:37 MrRammstein wrote: To clarify Overlords are Overseer the only fast detectors or do normal Overlords have some speed upgrade?
edit: How Warp In works were those insanely fast units warping in stored?
Overlords are slow ass guys like in SCBW but dont drop units, don't detect. They have 2 abilities in the latest build that we played 1) being morph to Overseer, 50 mins 50 gas, takes 10 sec orso its fast and only requires a lair. 2) being creep something, as it drops creep onto the ground where it spreads allowing for defensive zerg structures to be built before the hatch finishes or to WALK THEM OVER to the new expo (they are pretty fast while uprooted but really weak!) and defend it while it finishes.
The creep spreads at a FAST rate, the three main uses I found for it were offcourse a) to deploy offensive nydus worms, b) to place spinal crawlers (sunken colonies) at a building hatch or best of all c) one one map a golden mineral expo was blocked by destroyable rocks, I dropped creep, moved 4 spinals there, and had them destroy the rocks while already forming a nice static defense for the soon to be built hatchery there while not requiring any of my army to stop pressuring my opponent and while turning my at that time useless static defense into a means to acquire a brand new double yield expo.
Overlords still have a seperate, overlord only speed upgrade just like in SCBW at a lair.
Overlords are NO DETECTORS!! Just overseers, but they are quite up to the job. First thing I do when I get a lair is morph 4 overseers, put 1 at my main, 1 at my natural, 1 at my army and 1 at his natural. They have a huge sight radius if they stay put for a while.
Overseers also have ENERGY, ghosts can detect them by their personal energy detection radar as such. The real question is, what would they use that energy for. Well to create Changelings.
Its an ability everyone I spoke to totally missed. Changelings are 35 energycost larvae that you can run around the map and the first enemy unit it encounters turns it into a zergling zealot or marine which you can just quietly walk into his base without getting autoattack by units while you have a nice little look around his base. They are *great* for scouting, at least vs noobs as pro players should easily spot a random unit running around. But still, the fact that they dont get auto attacked means that even if you would see it and kill it soon, it means it will just scout your army or even your tech before you can react to it and thats just if theres 1 running around, let alone 10.
I'm not sure if Changelings had a duration before they autodied (like broodlings in SCBW), I forgot tt, they might have.
I also wasn't able to find out if DETECTOR units see a changeling for what it truely is.
On July 01 2008 04:37 MrRammstein wrote: To clarify Overlords are Overseer the only fast detectors or do normal Overlords have some speed upgrade?
edit: How Warp In works were those insanely fast units warping in stored?
You change a Gateway into a Warpgate with an upgrade at the cybernetics core. A warpgate doesn't "build" units but you can pretty much instanly spawn them wherever you have "power" as created by a pylon or phaseprism (deployed shuttle). After spawning them they go on cooldown and you cant create anymore units there then until the cooldown finishes and you can warp in more units again in a powered zone.
So you can select 10 gateways, they get changed, you pop 6 zeals and 4 stalkers onto the battlefield where you have a sneaky pylon hidden behind tall grass terrain which blocks vision (but not movement). Then after the cooldown finished you spawn 10 DTs into your opponents main where you sneakily flew your phase prism after scouting all clear with your observer and deployed it in an empty corner.
hope that explains it for you.
p.s. Tall grass and destroyable terrain (as neutral buildings are right now), but especially the tall grass are really really cool. The gras just makes for PERFECT ambush places :D.
Oh a small detail, engineering bays cost a little gas to make now, like 25 I think and ARE NOT LIFTABLE anymore. So no more "useless" building to lift and scout around hehe. Same with the Deep Space Relay, it's not liftable. Only production buildings are liftable atm, but liftable terran buildings fly *alot* faster then in SCBW.
Changelings sound evil, well depending how well the enemy knows his own forces. I´m curious how the Nomad works right now, I heard that Nanorepair is back and AoE in Air now, is that true or is it BS?
I see how i will "m" + click on enemy units my changelings :D Can u see what they really are with a detector? It will be usefull in the late game when your opponent has got like 100 units
On July 01 2008 04:37 MrRammstein wrote: To clarify Overlords are Overseer the only fast detectors or do normal Overlords have some speed upgrade?
edit: How Warp In works were those insanely fast units warping in stored?
You change a Gateway into a Warpgate with an upgrade at the cybernetics core. A warpgate doesn't "build" units but you can pretty much instanly spawn them wherever you have "power" as created by a pylon or phaseprism (deployed shuttle). After spawning them they go on cooldown and you cant create anymore units there then until the cooldown finishes and you can warp in more units again in a powered zone.
So you can select 10 gateways, they get changed, you pop 6 zeals and 4 stalkers onto the battlefield where you have a sneaky pylon hidden behind tall grass terrain which blocks vision (but not movement). Then after the cooldown finished you spawn 10 DTs into your opponents main where you sneakily flew your phase prism after scouting all clear with your observer and deployed it in an empty corner.
hope that explains it for you.
p.s. Tall grass and destroyable terrain (as neutral buildings are right now), but especially the tall grass are really really cool. The gras just makes for PERFECT ambush places :D.
Oh a small detail, engineering bays cost a little gas to make now, like 25 I think and ARE NOT LIFTABLE anymore. So no more "useless" building to lift and scout around hehe. Same with the Deep Space Relay, it's not liftable. Only production buildings are liftable atm, but liftable terran buildings fly *alot* faster then in SCBW.
On July 01 2008 04:48 Krzycho wrote: What do you think about roaches? On the SC2 first streamed game they did seem to be really really slow. What speed did you play on? Was it normal or fastest?
You couldn't see the speed but it felt pretty much like SCBW if not faster due to the new and GREATLY improved unit pathing. Everything moves incredibly smoothe and units are *exactly* as big as they look atm, aka you need like 4-5 zeals atm to block a small choke to prevent lings from getting in and even they some might get through.
Roaches are really really strong vs terran in my experience and that from several others I spoke to. Not *that* strong that you can just mass them and kill someone. Well you can but just vs noobs who go like pure rines or pure tanks. Add 2-4 marauders in the mix and the tables even out quite nicely.
Roaches are tier 1 units, they cost 75 mins, 25 gas, the same as SCBW hydras cost. They fire just at ground at like euhm.. shorter range then upgraded marines (and standard marine range in SC2), and at a decent rate, they have 75 HP and they have a Hive Tech level upgrade that increases their (already formidable) regeneration rate which is about as much as (give or take) a medic healing it in SCBW.... I know tt. The Roachden takes a relatively long time to build compared to a spawning pool, maybe even as long as a hatchery I didn't check the exact buildtimes but it felt like a relatively long time for me, especially for a tier 1 building.
But to actually answer your question, yes they move slow as hell hehe.
Roaches are at their strongest when micro'd in combination with BURROW, which now takes a meagre 30 seconds to upgrade and the pitiful cost of 50 mins and 50 gas.
I just had to use it to my maximum skill ability in two games, one vs a random terran I played like 3x who seemed quite skilled and probably is a good SCBW player and the other game vs Sea)Shield. The way I go at it is to focus two marines down with two small groups of roaches and then burrow them for 2-3 sec as they all regenerate to full, then unburrow again and shoot two more of the little buggers and then reburrow hence repeat till everything is dead.
This is offcourse especially strong if you can get your gang into his natural so he's kinda forced to fight your roaches in this style or lift-off his CC and give up his natural for the time being till he reclaims it. A well placed radar tower helps/prevents against this but they are pretty easily sniped by some speed lings running past the carnage in a fight.
The arrival of a nomad (which requires just a startport + techlab addon) offcourse totally destroys this tactic and scan will as well but theres a window where you can prevent him from taking his natural with this tactic while taking another expo or teching/massing up yourself to actually crush his natural once he gets rid of your roaches with detection.
Roaches vs protoss felt rather weak but nice in support if you require it early game but I felt more comfortable with taking just 1 of my two gasses and going speed ling with baneling support instead of the two gasses you need to keep up with three hatch roaches.
I'll stress again how incredibly powerfull burrow is at this point in time. Burrow combined with roaches makes for a formidable early game tactic versus terrans and burrow combined with banelings is just scarily insane. If you can funnal an enemy without mobile detection (so mostly early game/earlymidgame) with flanking lings and ling luring over 10-20 banelings you will instantly turn any army of ANY unit combination into a huge pile of green goo. Most people I played repeatedly were afraid to try and counter a fast 2nd expo from me until they had mobile detection because of fear of a burrowed baneling ambush.
One protoss player though tried some nice strat against it, he lost his first army (like 2 archons, 10 zeals, 6 stalkers, 2 nullifiers and a HT) all in the blink of an eye against 18 burrowed banelings. Only 1 archon walked away from that till it got swarmed by about 40 lings. After that he moved out again with a sizable army and I was flying around with 5 corruptors and an overseer to snipe some observers if I got the chance but after sniping his observer he just kept comming and I was drooling again of another bloodbath like before. This guy was actually pretty damn good and was using drops like 1 archon 1 HT 1 nullifier to forcefield block my nat/main ramp and then hunt my mains probes with archon stormdrop so I got stupid and overconfident.
The lucky break I had there like 3 sec before I popped my baneling ambush was that 1 zealot apparantly snuck through my ambushes and ran into my 4rth base and then was killed by spinal crawlers but as it did.. I heard a nice *poof* sound.
Which scared the shit out of me because as to confirm my suspicions I ran my lings into the approaching army and found out they were all hallucinated.... *zing* If I didnt get lucky he would have totally outplayed me there, because without those banelings he could have rolled out and totally crushed by newest expo to bring the basecount back to 3 vs 2 and get him totally back in the game. There was just no way I could have stopped that attack otherwise since I was playing greedy at that point and trustnig to my banelings scattered in groups everywhere to keep him in check till I had 8 geysers to mass hydra from 7 hatches.
On that part, HT's now come with hallucination already available to them and it lasts an astounding *3minutes!!!!* now per hallucination. After that game I tried some of myself for it and found it to be crazy good in certain situations.
On July 01 2008 05:16 Krzycho wrote: I see how i will "m" + click on enemy units my changelings :D Can u see what they really are with a detector? It will be usefull in the late game when your opponent has got like 100 units
Yeah like I said before I actually have no idea if detectors work against them, forgot/didn't get a chance to actually find out.
But you should worry I guess, SC2 will be a great and very entertaining game no doubt and without question even more so then WC3/TFT which I even enjoyed myself when they came out. But we all know how they turned out competative wise and I'm not seeing them in 5-6 years still I think.
I don't want SC2 to be a great and entertaining game. I want it to be absolutely spot on, mindblowing, dick-rising, sexoncocainalishious and not a bit less and it's really not at that point yet.
Wow how the hell did I end up writing that huge reply to that simple question LOL. SC2 just got me so hyped :D.
And FA SC2 felt really good but theres quite alot of things that felt wrong/interrupting gameflow but noones played it enough outside blizz to actually comment on that I guess, just some impressions I got from playing it for 15-16 hours or somth.
All in all I REALLY enjoyed playing it and it got me hyped, addicted and craving for more.
On July 01 2008 05:09 Unentschieden wrote: Changelings sound evil, well depending how well the enemy knows his own forces. I´m curious how the Nomad works right now, I heard that Nanorepair is back and AoE in Air now, is that true or is it BS?
I haven't checked Nomads that well myself. I just used them as mobile detectors and to drop spider mines on my opponents sieged tanks and non AA protected units haha. They still have that turret ability though as upgrade but I didn't use it. I played mostly zerg and thats the only race I really played through and through.
So in short, I haven't got a single clue if nanorepair is in or not but I think it doesn't in the build we played since I think I'd have noticed it but I might as well missed it.
On July 01 2008 05:44 Krzycho wrote: Did u invent any strats? Did u use a lot of spell casters as a zerg or did u just mass lots of units?
I did post those questions in a wrong thread.
Well me and Haji, me playing zerg and him playing toss we're trying to create working buildorders and then working unit combo's strats which got quite some interesting and very effective results. Sadly this is useless for when the game actually comes out since everything changes all the time . From minerals returned per trip to unit dmg/cost/buildtime/place in techtree or removed alltogether.
But so yeah we invented alot of strats, everyone who plays a new game has to since there is no pre-knowledge to go on and if you start SC2 with a SCBW state of mind you'll get sorely disappointed with timings and unit performace in general and pleasantly surprised in others.
Zerg really has just 1 caster, they have 3 units with energy being the Overseer, the Infestor and the Queen, but the Infestor really is the only caster zerg has and I found swarm to be GREATLY disappointing, especially with the lack of consume it's not spammable anymore so you can't create "swarm highway" anymore. Also the area it covers has been significantly reduced like that of psistorm (which still is damn good imho due to the new improved unit clutter and pathing).
I found Infestors to be really nice to use to sneak into an enemy base with the move while burrowed stuff or drop them there, infest 3-4 buildings and then turn the infested spawns on his workers while attacking his main army or pushing his frontdoor/natural.
But the main problem is that without consume, you gotta be carefull with what you do with them. Infestors are pretty expensive to get to techwise and then to build them even more so. Then comes the waiting for energy and then you got just 1-2 spells to use. I found Infestor energy to be best spent on disease which is REALLY amazing btw. Two diseases hitting a terran ball at both sides of the ball sees it spread through the army in no time as it's contageous and if you hit him at the same time with your army, he'll have no time to kill or seperate the units in time or if he does he's not controlling his army while your hitting it. It's amazing how fast a whole group of units gets reduced to just 5% of their HP if someone misses the disease for even a few seconds.
(it takes about 10 full seconds to reduce a unit to 5% of its max hp, at about 5% per tick, this makes it alot weaker vs low hp units like marines then SCBW plague for example but it makes it a hell of alot stronger vs large units like Thors, carriers, colossi, ultras, BC's.)
Seems like marines will be pretty important in TvP because Immortal seems to counter every mech unit terran have. That's based on watching these matches of course, all speculation, but marines will be a nice counter to immortals because of their fast attack.
How did the units perform that infestation creates (Infested Marines?). Also, I thought I saw that they end their timed lifespan with suicide (shoot themselves), is that true or should I polish my glasses?
On July 01 2008 06:11 Oc wrote: Seems like marines will be pretty important in TvP because Immortal seems to counter every mech unit terran have. That's based on watching these matches of course, all speculation, but marines will be a nice counter to immortals because of their fast attack.
They seem to be, but I think Vikings don't trigger their shields either, Marauders do, but Jackals don't. So it's a bit of a tradeoff going around and I haven't played TvP enough in the latest build let alone vs someone good to actually comment on what would work or not.
The TvPs I have played showed me that opening with 2 rax, one with reactor (for 2 rines at the same time) and one with tech lab (for marauders) and early agression with them is kinda crucial to force to P to make zealots or even cannons to delay his tech to stalkers.
If you don't do that it *seems* to me at least that P can unopposedly take an expo while casually getting stalkers and just skipping zeals alltogether. At least untill he upgrades charge.
And once stalkers get blink plus theres some immortals in the mix you rape pure tanks so easily its laughable. Haji was playing XeoFreestyler and put on a good blinkshow .
Pure metal seems to weak anyway to go straight for in TvP, it's too slow, it's too expensive and too ineffective unsupported.
This is all just a *feel* I got from it and didnt get around to play proper people to actually see how it turned out.
On July 01 2008 06:16 Unentschieden wrote: How did the units perform that infestation creates (Infested Marines?). Also, I thought I saw that they end their timed lifespan with suicide (shoot themselves), is that true or should I polish my glasses?
They perform like marines but move a bit slower and Im pretty much sure shoot a bit slower too. But if you can infest 2-4 buildings (they spawn 8 of them per building) while hitting his army/front as a pincer or distraction they can wreak havoc on a base it's pylons, supply depots or especially workers and they will take care of any reinforcements that pop up during the fight from his facilities.
The only moment I used them in a proper game I infested 3 barracks I think, might have been 4 and I used my infested marines to take his ramp and kill off the units that spawned during a fight we had in the centre of the map and to prevent him from maynarding his natural scvs to his main as I popped a nydus worm there and sent in some banelings at them.
As for their autodie animation I have to disappoint you because I was way too busy to check that in that game haha, so I have to disappoint you on that part. Would be cool though if theyd shoot themselves, but even better if they suicided for a small amount of dmg :p.
On July 01 2008 06:11 Oc wrote: Seems like marines will be pretty important in TvP because Immortal seems to counter every mech unit terran have. That's based on watching these matches of course, all speculation, but marines will be a nice counter to immortals because of their fast attack.
They seem to be, but I think Vikings don't trigger their shields either, Marauders do, but Jackals don't. So it's a bit of a tradeoff going around and I haven't played TvP enough in the latest build let alone vs someone good to actually comment on what would work or not.
The TvPs I have played showed me that opening with 2 rax, one with reactor (for 2 rines at the same time) and one with tech lab (for marauders) and early agression with them is kinda crucial to force to P to make zealots or even cannons to delay his tech to stalkers.
If you don't do that it *seems* to me at least that P can unopposedly take an expo while casually getting stalkers and just skipping zeals alltogether. At least untill he upgrades charge.
And once stalkers get blink plus theres some immortals in the mix you rape pure tanks so easily its laughable. Haji was playing XeoFreestyler and put on a good blinkshow .
Pure metal seems to weak anyway to go straight for in TvP, it's too slow, it's too expensive and too ineffective unsupported.
This is all just a *feel* I got from it and didnt get around to play proper people to actually see how it turned out.
Man reading this made me want to play SC2 so badly. The more rock-paper-scissors the better I feel. If there's one issue with BW right now is that even though there's definitely a super high skill cap, the number of strategies in some matchups is very limited. Infantry in TvP are almost useless after P gets cybernetics core since infantry don't really hard counter anything the P have, and ZvZ while exciting to watch is lings/muta every matchup.
That's just my opinion, because the RPS meta game of BW in dynamic matches such as PvP are my favorite.
On July 01 2008 06:18 maybenexttime wrote: How does the Immortal vs. Siege Tank interaction actually work? Are Immortals too good vs. Tanks?
Does Terran use distinct unit mixes in different match-ups like in BW (vZ bio; various types of metal vP & T)?
Immortals are unbeatable by straight up tanks. The immortals shield (after upgrade!) reduces all damage thats over 20 an attack down to 20 damage I believe ( not really sure, just that it procs off attacks that do more then 20 dmg per shot). So they are insane tanks vs heavy hitters such as tanks, for the rest the pretty much blow though and stalkers are alot better and more versatile with their dmg and blink.
Im pretty sure immortals are vs ground only and cannot as such fire at air units.
Immortals really have their weaknesses and they aren't cheap so they need to be supported by other units, but so do tanks. This turns them both into great units to mix with others. Tanks are a great great support unit which can lie down insane fireperimiters once you get a couple of them due to hardcore splash damage. Immortals on the other hand seem to be a bit situational but they are great for going in first and absorbing some of that heavy damage from siege tanks for example.
All in all they don't seem overpowered at all but I haven't used them myself at all so take this opinion with a grain of salt, this is just from watching stork play around with them against idra and savior for a couple of games and from the SC2 showmatches on stage with HOT and Naruto playing.
On July 01 2008 06:18 maybenexttime wrote: How does the Immortal vs. Siege Tank interaction actually work? Are Immortals too good vs. Tanks?
Does Terran use distinct unit mixes in different match-ups like in BW (vZ bio; various types of metal vP & T)?
Again I cant really comment on it as I havent really explored terran in depth during my games as I focussed on getting as much as I could out of zerg gameplay.
But yes it seems terran uses different mixes vs different races as can be expected but I really cant comment on this as its mostly a huge bunch of bullcrap Ill be making up and speculating about. Dunno if someone who went played T extensively but I cannont comment on mix efficiency since I can't have played more then 2 decent games with T 1 TvP and one TvT. I got some impressions from my games which gave me some feelings about certain things and give me reason to speculate but it's totally unreliable even for the latest build as I have no sense of midgame timing or tried to pioneer some proper builds past 1 rax/fax FE and 2 rax reactor/techlab rush into ghost/banshee support.
All I know is that tanks absolutely vaporize terran infantry even worse then in SCBW and that banshees seem to be really nice.
On July 01 2008 06:51 MrRammstein wrote: Nyovne I bet you will use your own posts to write this blog :D looking forward to it, really looking forward ^^
Haha I'll make some notes and get my thoughts and opinions straight tomorrow in the train to my appartment and then write it all up .
Glad people get hyped for this, it's worth it. I just hope it'll be more then great and be a worthy e-sport successor for SCBW, but it needs alot of work right now to actually get to that point but it looks really promising and it'll at least make a great game im sure.
But I want it to be sick kickass awsome perfect and not just great :D.
On July 01 2008 06:51 Ideas wrote: why is burrow so much better now? how is it controlled?
It's really fast and really easy to get for starters, it's 30 sec research duration, 50 mins, 50 gas. It's practically free.
edit: a small thing of note, you can see the heads of the burrowed units so you can actually see whats burrowed where instead of just the small black holes in SCBW which really makes it alot clearer and alot more managable once they are burrowed. Good change!
Then comes the fact that it's just great for ambushes in general and to save units that are losing a fight especially early game/midgame when there's little to no detection around and workers that are getting harassed. This goes for SC2 as much as it already goes for burrow in SCBW which imho is severely underrated and underused.
The best part about burrow from it's general use as I tried to depict above here is from the way it synergyses with two new units. Namely the Baneling and the Roach.
Burrowed banelings are SICK. It was my trademark move on WWI as it's just sick to see someone move out with a 40-50 psi army midgame and then with ling / hydra pressure you funnel them into a certain spot or lure them towards a "seemingly undefended expansion" and underway they run over 10-20 burrowed banelings which you then unburrow and watch them proceed to turn the whole army into green goo in about a single whole second. It's just sick, people I played more then once hardly even moved out anymore till they had detect or a fake group of units running around that were hallucinated to try and draw the ambushes out.
It's like hold lurker on crack.
The other thing is something I put to the test vs a progamer which is when you use roaches who regenerate extremely fast to pick off one or two units and before a roach dies you burrow them all, let them regen a sec, and then unburrow them all again and pick off one or two more units before burrowing and regenning again.
Especially if you can do this inside his base thanks to a nydus worm or in his natural or pinched position its great since he cant just redraw out of roach range (their range is really limited and they are slow as hell). The roach burrow dance is just incredibly strong till he gets reliable detect over there and then the fun is pretty much over till you get rid of it . Vs P I find it because of that still very important to build a few flyers to try and keep his obs count low at all times or to eliminate them as he moves out or during a fight for this single reason.
VS's T's the same goes for nomads and to sneak a few lings through the fray in a fight to snipe his radar tower or infest 2 buildings and put those instant spawned infested terrans to work with suicide clearing all his static detect before you move in on his base or nydus his back to create a beachhead for your units.
Since detection has become alot harder to get in SC2 or at least slower to get then before for most races burrow as hatchery researched ability creates an amazing playstyle and techniques for early game zerg at the very least.
In a battle with speedlings vs a player if you can get into his base and can burrow some lings here and there that he missed in the chaos which you can later when hes fighting you with his army can morph into banelings into his base and then rape his mineral/workerline with them is just amazing. At the very least it forces him to make some detection / leave some units back in his base to deal with that threat lurking below the ground or shore up some static defense.
Burrow and the options it opened in playstyles is what got me so enthusiastic about zerg and made me play it for by far most games on WWI.
Can you infest Protoss buildings? (I'd personally like Infest to be a Terran dedicated spell, or have some other effect on other races' buildings.)
Are Banelings gas-heavy? In the BlizzCon build they were, so I heard.
Are Nydus Worm "drops" effective? Are they hard to pull off (Radar Towers, burrowed Lings, Observers, and other means of scouting might theoretically render them so)?
On July 01 2008 07:34 maybenexttime wrote: Did Nomads get their detection back?
Can you infest Protoss buildings? (I'd personally like Infest to be a Terran dedicated spell, or have some other effect on other races' buildings.)
Are Banelings gas-heavy? In the BlizzCon build they were, so I heard.
Are Nydus Worm "drops" effective? Are they hard to pull off (Radar Towers, burrowed Lings, Observers, and other means of scouting might theoretically render them so)?
Nomads most certainly had their detection back in the latest build.
You can infest protoss buildings, they just spawn infested terrans at this moment and they aren't rly sure what to do about it/with it concerning infested protoss buildings and what they spawn and do.
Banelings are far from gas heavy. They used to benefit from the same speedupgrade as zerglings which made them both as fast. Banelings at the time were 25mins 25 gas to upgrade a single zergling. This does btw also turn a 0.5 supply zergling into a full 1 supply banelings so you will need additional overlords.
This however turned out to be overpowered so they turned the baneling morph into 25 mins 75 gas which resulted in hardly anyone using them since 75 gas, is total overkill, especially in early game SC2 zerg play and you need quite a few of the buggers to actually kill stuffs (except lings or workers I guess).
Hope these were some satisfying answers .
Both versions ended up as totally unsatisfying so they came up with changing the baneling morph back to 25/25 but lowering the baneling movementspeed to a nonupgraded zerglings and giving them a seperate movement speed increase upgrade which is researchable at the banelingnest once you reach Hive Tech.
Slow banelings are still really strong, and with burrow their speed doesn't really matter but I find it to be a great fix for a problem with a very inspiring and interesting unit. I was really really happy with baneling play at WWI.
When I played Sea he showed with marauder marine micro how well you can counter slow banelings with proper control so I feel it's been a great fix and the unit feels wellrounded and finished atm in every matchup's early game at least. The endgame speedupgrade makes them all the more formidable because the little green rollers become *fast* and are great to flank or backstab a fight with, something they are just too slow for without that grade against an observant opponent in early / midgame.
Nydus worms are actually a summon, you build them like a building on creep. They cost 100 minerals per Worm and theres a 10 sec cooldown on the spawn worm ability so if you want to create more then one at the same time you have to create multiple nydus warrens or wait those 10 sec if youre sticking with just 1 warren.
They actually aren't transporters or real units. They don't move around the map or somthing. You just select your nydus warren (the building enabling them) and select the create nydus worm option and then click it somewhere where theres enough creep and itll roar out of the ground during a 3 second "buildtime/spawntime" and once thats done you can press the "unload all" and it starts regurgitating everything thats inside the nydus system.
You can load any amount of units at any nydus warren or nydus worm on the map and unload them from any nydus worm or warren on the map after it. Or spawn multiple units from multiple worms. If you want to spawn a specific unit you'll have to manually click it in the nydus network from the specific worm you want it to pop from like unloading a specific unit from an overlord. Due to the endless capacity of the nydus network this can take some time browsing through the 30unit tabs tab by tab .
So summarizing on nydus worms, you can't detect their approach, you do get a 1 second warning and a 3 second buildtime to counter them. They are actually pretty weak, just 200 hp a piece I believe so they die pretty quickly. I still think the spawntime is too fast and should be upped from like 3 sec to 5.
The nydus worm system however seems to be really lacking to defend against Collossi on cliffs and cliffdancing or cliff blinking stalker harass or siege tank cliff drops at this point in time.
Cliff play against zerg seems to be a major weakness of the race at the moment and except for "preemptive" nydus worming and building stuff there or keeping an exit ready on a cliff I couldnt really see how you can ever clean a dedicated cliff drop as zerg except by preventing it. The only problem this has is that about every drop tech, especially from a 1 base T is fast then you can get and afford a nydus worm up there.
(however if someone rushes a tank drop like someone tried vs me on a SC2 version of Lost Temple that was one of the maps there, it practically means hes got no other units or enough of them to actually prevent you from taking 2 other safe expos and using your army to prevent any attempts he makes to take his own expo unless he severely tanks that up as well which allows you to take even more expos till you even clear your own cliff.)
On July 01 2008 08:05 maybenexttime wrote: Can you enter the Nydus network via any Worm/Warren?
edit: Also, your posts are VERY appriciated. :D
edit2: I posted this before reading the whole post. My question has already been asnwered by you, thanks again!:DD
edit3: (LOL) I was talking more about spotting the Overlords rather than Nydus Worms - the new mechanic has been explained in the Dev panel. ^^
You really need to make sure to know where that first scouting overlord went around your base so it doesn't just hover back in and starts creeping in your main or natural right when he gets his lair and nydus warren finished. It's good to get 1 anti air unit or 1 flyer if it fits in your build just to scare it away if it gets too close to your base or even kill if it you see the opportunity to do so.
Vs a zerg with lair tech you just *have to have* a small group of units and maybe even some static defense in your main at all time or a group of air units roaming the skies to clear up any approaching overlords or to crush a nydus worm as it pops up before it can finish warping in or can unload any decent amount of units.
On July 01 2008 08:16 hzhao wrote: Some simple questions:
So is lurker back to tier 2? Baneling is tier 1 right? or you need lair to build it?
Banelings require nothing except the banelingnest which requires a spawningpool to build and 100mins/50 gas and it builds relatively fast compared to most tier 1 buildings, like an evochamber I guess. At least it felt that way, don't have hard numbers for you on how many seconds.
After that they require 25 mins and 25 gas per zergling to morph into a baneling and 2 zerglings turn into banelings require a full 2 psi instead of 1 psi for 2 lings.
Banelings are fully tier 1 units with a hive level speed upgrade.
Lurker is back on tier 2 which I believe it always was. What it takes to create a lurker is to get a spawningpool (still 150 mins) then morph a lair (150 mins 200 gas so thats more costly then SCBW), then morph a hydralisk den (200/200) then upgrade the hydralisk then into a Deep Burrow the same way you change a spire into a Greater Spire. This requires no additional tech, like a hive or another building just the investment of 50 minerals and 100 gas to change the hydralisk den into the deep burrow.
After the Deep Burrow finishes your hydralisks (100/100 cost 2 psi) can now morph into lurkers (which requires another 50/100 and another psi).
Maybe the upgrade to deep burrow required hive tech before dunno. All in all lurkers are really damn expensive with the added hydra cost upgrade since thats the base unit for the lurker.
On July 01 2008 08:40 Krzycho wrote: Did u try a muta micro? did it work?
I didn't really try mutas. The spire cost (200/300, yeah thats alot of gas) was just killing me and mutas felt generally weak. You can still pretty much stack mutas, though not as good as in SCBW. The only problem is that once you shoot they all totally decellerate so you can swoop them like you do in SCBW, the whole swoop fire swoop fire swoop fire etc.
I just used them in two proper games and those were both ZvZs where we ended up with muta vs muta but the first game I rolled him because it ended up with mutaling from him vs mutabanelingzergling from me so that took him down, especially after a double nydusworm spawn at his far expo and main at the same time and sending drones through to offensive spinal crawler (sunken colony) him while sending some banelings after his drones.
The second game some zerg, dunno if it was same guy, handled my harass really well, showed some good micro and defended my nydus worm attacks really well so he came out on top with some more mutas and did some good damage to me, then I switched to hydras which just totally raped his mutas silly with my queen backing them up for support (healing, AA fire with good range) which turned the game around. If he would have had better knowledge of the units he would have crushed me that game, just my hydra switch and their surprised effectiveness won me the game, not my skill or build.
summary: you cant muta micro like you could, but they are *trying* to fix that, but they actually have to break and ruin parts of their game engine to get that done haha.
What about Mutas? Is Z mirror mutalings allover again? I assume it isn't. If so, is Infester's Desease a counter to Muta harrass?
Is Muta micro back finally?
Mutas are nice for harass but I couldn't figure a matchup or build where I ended up using them convincingly.
No you cannot muta micro like you can in SCBW but blizzard is trying to ruin their game engine partly so they can reproduce this effect for mutas and certain other units since they found it to have become an essential part of the dynamic "starcraft feel".
Disease is pretty damn nice and would be nice vs muta's I guess. It's same tech level as mutas and its contageous effect is so nice. It would require muta splitting like vs irradiate which would be easier though due to the half stacking and the contagion time (at this point in time in SC2 but if they get the stacking and swooping back in its still as hard if not harder). So it wouldn't hardcounter them but it would most certainly help dealing with them alot.
I found disease to be the best used vs the terran ball if you infested two sides of the ball at once while attacking it so he can hardly split the infected units off. Cluttering marines/infantry make it just the perfect target, just as it did for plague. But since disease now works % based and not flat out hp/sec reduction it's alot weaker then plague compared to use against low hp units but infinately stronger vs high hp units like the ultralisk.
On July 01 2008 08:53 MrRammstein wrote: yet again question about Overlord but quick:
What building upgrades Ovies so they can do Creep?
Lair
Mutas suck and turn like cars and need to be on top of things to fire.
Yeah lair and like chill said, they are soooooooooooo fat and slow compared to SCBW unlike the dynamic harass unit. Only reason they can harass in SC2 is cause they still remain relatively fast flyer units which are always two good things when harassing.
I find them not worth their cost, let alone the 300 gas for the spire.
On July 01 2008 08:45 maybenexttime wrote: So they simply changed the Lurker aspect upgrade to Deep Burrow so that you can actually tell whether the guy's getting Lurker tech. Pretty neat!
How are Hydralisks at tier 2? Is Zerg anti-air good enough early game? Are Hydras more maneuverable now? Good hit'n'runners?:D
Hydras are excelent to dance with, especially with the new clutter and movement system thats just so incredibly smoothe (except for air units which are a pain to watch move around).
Zerg anti air seems to be a bit problematic, you got spores... meh, Queen nice but still 1 unit so totally useless when searching for a dependable anti air counter, mutas seem totally shit and weak vs just about anything, corruptors are a JOKE I found them to be really really bad and then the lack of scourges...
This ends up with you looking towards the brand new 100/100 2 psi hydras to deal with air which they do really nicely actually! Theres just one big ass problem, they're ground units so air can just cliff hug or air/water/lava/space whatever to just dodge them and use the terrain to avoid the hydra mob.
As far as that goes, I didnt have one game where someone actually went dedicated air against me so I don't know how they actually fare against mass air except mass mutas and they totally raped that silly. Added to that how they perform against armored units in general (thors, stalkers, vikings colossi) I expect them to perform admirably. With the only problem that zerg seems to be dead as far as their air units go which REALLY needs looking at.
So you think that even tho hydras and mutas cost the same, while mutas have more health and are more mobile. Hydras are still usually worth it because they do more dmg than mutas?
Also, can the infestor use all it's spells while burrowed? And can it move through cliffs while burrowed like the old nydus worm would?
On July 01 2008 09:03 maybenexttime wrote: Does Disease work on mechanical units (like Plague and unlike Irradiate)?
Yes it does, at least in this build it was different before, but before it also was a single diseased unit having a kind of damage aura that hurt units near it, now it actively spreads from unit to unit.
Anyways off to bed, ill check if theres more tomorrow and start on the blog.
On July 01 2008 09:56 VIB wrote: So you think that even tho hydras and mutas cost the same, while mutas have more health and are more mobile. Hydras are still usually worth it because they do more dmg than mutas?
Also, can the infestor use all it's spells while burrowed? And can it move through cliffs while burrowed like the old nydus worm would?
Hydras are way worth it, alot more dmg, they're fast as hell and fire alot faster ontop of doing more damage per shot and behind a little zergling baneling swarm they real killers as far as my experience went.
I'm just afraid that vs 3-5 tanks or 2+ collossi they are gonna get chewed by the AOE dmg like any other ground unit but I never got an opponent that got that far without being so passive off 1 base that I had the rest of the map.
So from my experience and in this current build (which most certainly wont be the last so this is kinda all useless except for an indication it gives) hydras are really good units but they might get chewed up along with the other ground units without much of a problem by certain unit groups once they get out.
It's all about the mix though as zerg, the zerglings draw fire, the banelings flank, hydras delivering the punch from range while infestors drop some swarms/disease on the ball and while all this is going on you pop one or two nydus worms in your opponents base or expansion and send in some drones/banelings to offensive spinal crawler + banelings on his workers.
That's what my impression from midgame zerg was at least .
On July 01 2008 09:57 MrRammstein wrote: If they will repair Mutas all will be good x) I wonder what they will do with Currupters...
Did you try Swarm Guardians? Do they make Broodlings with every attack?
edit: heh Good Night
Yeah I did actually but not in a proper game, the lack of gas on the map (aka 1k gas geysers) resulted in the lack of endgame gas vs any good player since by the time you got alot of geysers the first ones would continually run out again, even with the new gas mechanic. So ultras and guardians didn't get a chance in my proper games to shine as they all ended in midgame so I can't really give a proper opinion about them.
But yes, they are slow as hell, pack a punch (25 dmg a shot), look REALLY impressive imho they are huuuggeee ass and move really cool, and they spawn two broodlings per shot that have like a few hp and deal 4 dmg per hit.
Guardians still seem to be the zerg siege breaker by far and having a handful of them in any major battle is awsome since they spawn so many of the little freaks that they draw so much fire and damage from your real units so they live longer to put the hurt to your opponent in those mass battles.
At least, thats the feel I got from them so take it with quite a few grains of salt . Pure speculation.
Thanks a lot Nyovne, this helps so much you have no idea
So you think roaches are overshadowed by hydras when tech comes?
I see it you liked the baneling. Is it viable to morph them in combat, ex.: you run speedlings to surround his depots/pylons, click morph just before they die, hope the egg armor can handle the fire -> boom? So can you totally open a T initial supply/rax door with banelings?
What did you think about the new high ground system? Doesn't it seem like it makes no difference who is high or who is low ground once you get an overlord to spot who is up there?
On July 01 2008 10:02 heyitsme wrote: any1 has info on reapers?
They suck, are weak as hell, just do nice dmg vs small biological units like marines zealots or zerglings, but marines outrange them so rape them especially with marauders, zealots spank them pretty hard as well, not even starting on it when they got charge, but reapers rape lings pretty hard untill they just get swarmed and die to speed lings.
Reapers are pretty weak, slow, and their damage sucks ass. They're just good to skirmish vs some casters at the back of a column or hit workers.
Didn't see or try their mines myself or have seen them used against me so can't say.
The merc haven building required to build a planetary fortress from your cc and needed to create the reapers feels like a building totally out of the way of gameflow I just kept thinking everytime I played terran that you got two academies now, the ghost academy and the merenary haven. Kinda like the HT and DT seperate buildings at toss.
Couldn't really get a proper feel about the tech situation there but thats prolly cause I played T very little.
Hope someone else can give you a proper answer on this one cause I felt like they sucked huge ass from what I saw from them.
On July 01 2008 10:11 VIB wrote: Thanks a lot Nyovne, this helps so much you have no idea
So you think roaches are overshadowed by hydras when tech comes?
I see it you liked the baneling. Is it viable to morph them in combat, ex.: you run speedlings to surround his depots/pylons, click morph just before they die, hope the egg armor can handle the fire -> boom? So can you totally open a T initial supply/rax door with banelings?
What did you think about the new high ground system? Doesn't it seem like it makes no difference who is high or who is low ground once you get an overlord to spot who is up there?
Roaches are one psi slow skirmishers with something special going on, so they dont really compare but even in zvz hydras >>>>> roaches pretty damn hard. So yeah I'd pretty much go with that hydras overshadow roaches, perhaps except in zvp where your gas is prolly better spent (at least up till a point) on mass roaches with ling/baneling support and infestors and then head into hivetech with ultras and guards. Leaving hivetech for a while it might just as well be viable to go hydra lurk to add into that mix though, sounds just as powerfull.
and YES baneling morphing takes no more then a second or 5 so midcombat morphing is definately possible. The eggs do NOT have any armor though so they die in a hit or two three I think from most units like a zealot for example. But when stuff is shooting at stuff they have a low autotarget priority so they finish most of the time.
Personally I can advise to split a few of the (much faster) zerglings off from your main group of zerglings banelings and run them to where you want your banelings like into his workers in main and nat and there morph them into banelings right in his mineral line and if he runs his guys just burrow them there. Or if ur going tactical about it send like a few towards his main or nat and the rest burrow at his choke. In my second game vs Sea he maynarded his scvs from his main to his natural as he ran from some infested terrans which I spawned there, luckily for me I ran 3 lings into his base early in the game during a fight and morphed them into banelings after theyd been hiding there for 10 min and burrowed them at his ramp while I send my infestors at his rax, so when he maynarded his workers those 3 banelings took out about 20 scvs hehe.
But as an important note, banelings absolutely SUCK versus buildings, they do 25 damage each against them which is absolutely nothing. Never ever blow banelings on a building, which can be challenging cause they auto attack any hostile building in range so they just suicide on the nearest enemy building which is a waste gotta keep tabs on that and keep them controlled. Just a few on a clutch of protoss cannons can be nice since their shields still take full damage.
I really like the highground low ground system, but yeah once you spot it doesnt really seem to make a difference so it just goes as far as it goes. Zerg however does have issues dealing with cliffdancing units at this point. The only two things you can do against it is preemptively nydus up ramps or to have mutas or guardiands. Nydusses are mostly too late, mutas suck guts in hell and guards are endgame and sick expensive so tt there vs collossi and tank/viking drops there or banshees harassing from above a cliff.
Oh busting a unit block on ramps, like with lings, marines or zealots does get totally busted with banelings obv.
Oh one cute little detail, when a hatchery/lair/hive gets destroyed all these little "hatchlings" spawn :D. They are like 10 hp, 2 dmg little buggers haha and like 20+ of them spawn its so cute haaha and they rage attack anything nearby. Shame they are on a timer and die like 5 sec-10sec (didnt pay attention) after they spawn from the destroyed hatch :p.
Ommmmgg is this Naruto pwning shit up with ZERO sc2 features (mbs, automining, etc) ? It was fucking awesome seeing him survive after having to face 6 lings with 1 marine that died instantly lol.
Hey Nyovne Was there new Zerg lurker or Infestor art shown?
All I saw was the old art of both in the latest screenshots. And even then I think they were outdated.
Why?
1. No cobwebs on the hatcheries. Was there at wwi? 2. Old Infestor art/Lurker art. (karune said lurker art was updated months ago???? 3. Sunken and spore colonies present. (At wwi they were spine and spore crawlers..
Thanks.
P.s. Do Baneling nests move around in one spot? I notice in all screenshots there "legs" are in different spots.
Heya guys, since Nyovne is not around to answer your questions I'll give you some answers.
Well I read it was more annoying than MBS :D Does Zerg still have 2 rally points in Hatches? 1 for Drones, 1 for other units?
Yes zerg has two rally points, one golden for drones and one normal silver rally point for all the other units.
Have you seen Mothership in action? I read she's slow as hell... and summoned above Nexus now??
Mothership is definatly slow as hell. I haven't used it myself so I can't tell you much about its abilities. The Mothership is built at the nexus.
I read Zealot can 2'shot'- kill Zergling so is SC2 like BW about that?
If you find a zerg opponent that actually masses zerglings against protoss you could go for 2 hit kill. The things is that I experienced upgrades are less important in SC2 than they were in the original. When you build zealots in as a P, in the WWI build, zerg would just get 4 banelings and kill all of them anyway
No cobwebs on the hatcheries. Was there at wwi?
Cobwebs were there.
Old Infestor art/Lurker art. (karune said lurker art was updated months ago????
I did not like the new lurker, it looks so small and innocent compared to the original lurker.
Do Baneling nests move around in one spot? I notice in all screenshots there "legs" are in different spots.
Not sure about that, I do not recall seeing them rotate but I might have missed that.
Can you move a nydus worm back after you deployed one? Like if a zerg wants to send 1 drone to expand to an island expansion, do you have to use 1 overlord + 1 worm + leave that one worm there forever?
On July 01 2008 17:41 prayanavita wrote: Heya guys, since Nyovne is not around to answer your questions I'll give you some answers.
Well I read it was more annoying than MBS :D Does Zerg still have 2 rally points in Hatches? 1 for Drones, 1 for other units?
Yes zerg has two rally points, one golden for drones and one normal silver rally point for all the other units.
Have you seen Mothership in action? I read she's slow as hell... and summoned above Nexus now??
Mothership is definatly slow as hell. I haven't used it myself so I can't tell you much about its abilities. The Mothership is built at the nexus.
I read Zealot can 2'shot'- kill Zergling so is SC2 like BW about that?
If you find a zerg opponent that actually masses zerglings against protoss you could go for 2 hit kill. The things is that I experienced upgrades are less important in SC2 than they were in the original. When you build zealots in as a P, in the WWI build, zerg would just get 4 banelings and kill all of them anyway
No cobwebs on the hatcheries. Was there at wwi?
Cobwebs were there.
Old Infestor art/Lurker art. (karune said lurker art was updated months ago????
I did not like the new lurker, it looks so small and innocent compared to the original lurker.
Do Baneling nests move around in one spot? I notice in all screenshots there "legs" are in different spots.
Not sure about that, I do not recall seeing them rotate but I might have missed that.
Can you move a nydus worm back after you deployed one? Like if a zerg wants to send 1 drone to expand to an island expansion, do you have to use 1 overlord + 1 worm + leave that one worm there forever?
Worm is not really a worm anymore, it's like a nydus canal exit only you can build an infinite amount of exits now.
On July 01 2008 18:04 prayanavita wrote: Can you move a nydus worm back after you deployed one? Like if a zerg wants to send 1 drone to expand to an island expansion, do you have to use 1 overlord + 1 worm + leave that one worm there forever?
Worm is not really a worm anymore, it's like a nydus canal exit only you can build an infinite amount of exits now.
So once you paid to deploy an exit just to build an island expo. It stays there forever?
Anyone who played sc2 know how long it takes for the ovies dropped creep to shrink? I mean this would render an expansion useless for a couple of mfinutes...... I cant really see something like this being stopped and it would hurt BADLYYYYYYYYYYYYY
i had a really weird feeling when i played my first game, it was like playing starcraft on warcraft gfx engine ... so wierd. I ended making the same build orders than sc1, it worked pretty well except for tvp (you need marines). PvT : u can fast expand PvZ : 2 gates zeal rox
On July 01 2008 18:15 likeaboss wrote: Anyone who played sc2 know how long it takes for the ovies dropped creep to shrink? I mean this would render an expansion useless for a couple of mfinutes...... I cant really see something like this being stopped and it would hurt BADLYYYYYYYYYYYYY
I thought creep disappeared rather quickly, faster than killing a hatch in SC1 and watching it disappear. Can't give you an exact time frame to verify your suspicions about possible abusive behavior.
Nicky are the one I played a couple of times?
IMO PvZ: 2 gate zeal is not a very valid strategy, banelings completely dominate zealots in every possible way. Also with just zeals there's nothing stopping a baneling from blowing up all probes. And in the current build zerg can get banelings out pretty quick.
On July 01 2008 18:15 likeaboss wrote: Anyone who played sc2 know how long it takes for the ovies dropped creep to shrink? I mean this would render an expansion useless for a couple of mfinutes...... I cant really see something like this being stopped and it would hurt BADLYYYYYYYYYYYYY
I thought creep disappeared rather quickly, faster than killing a hatch in SC1 and watching it disappear. Can't give you an exact time frame to verify your suspicions about possible abusive behavior.
Nicky are the one I played a couple of times?
IMO PvZ: 2 gate zeal is not a very valid strategy, banelings completely dominate zealots in every possible way. Also with just zeals there's nothing stopping a baneling from blowing up all probes. And in the current build zerg can get banelings out pretty quick.
yeah was me, didnt know for banelings OH one thing, ZvZ is still GAY and u need luck lol
On July 01 2008 15:07 Invisible_Zergling wrote: Hey Nyovne Was there new Zerg lurker or Infestor art shown?
All I saw was the old art of both in the latest screenshots. And even then I think they were outdated.
Why?
1. No cobwebs on the hatcheries. Was there at wwi? 2. Old Infestor art/Lurker art. (karune said lurker art was updated months ago???? 3. Sunken and spore colonies present. (At wwi they were spine and spore crawlers..
Thanks.
P.s. Do Baneling nests move around in one spot? I notice in all screenshots there "legs" are in different spots.
No, the lurkers and infestors still had their old art. Which actually surprised me since they said they changed both and I was especially looking forward to the beefed up spikey lurker they talked about in a Q&A earlier.
As an additional note about the Lurker: They are medium speed, in SCBW they were fastest speed and you could move them at a pace with speed lings, in SC2 they are quite a bit slower which is really annoying when moving them around in packs or when trying to flank with them or close fast with ranged units. For their cost I really think they should at least be really damned fast, I really didn't like their speed as it limits their usability since they have to be close + burrowed to do a damn.
Oh and yeah the model is so small, I expected it to be bigger. As far as it goes for looks, yeah bigger is cooler and better but as far as gameplay goes smaller makes them stronger obviously for a pletora of reasons.
Yes Sunkens and spores are Spinal and Spore Crawlers, they are 100 mins each and require a drone (50 mins) to build. They build pretty damn fast though and dont require a morph from a creep tumor (colony) but hatch straight from the drone.
Well the banelingnest doesnt rotate but it's suspended on some of the legs, it waves around a little bit on "the wind" and as for the rest remember that the camera angle is slightly tilted so the angle changes with a different perspective on the building.
That said, the perspective was really nice and practical to play with, no beef there, excellent from blizz.
And the game isnt too flashy by far for my tastes, I could clearly see everything and when shit did get cluttered you could bet your money that everything below it was dead anyway haha.
On July 01 2008 11:19 IntoTheWow wrote: Good night Nyovne.
The hatch thing sounds so cute!
Haha it is, it's like a whole blob of little pissed off mini spiders making little angry sounds and raging at whatever hostile unit is nearby before getting instantly swatted haha.
I read Zealot can 2'shot'- kill Zergling so is SC2 like BW about that? 3 or 2 before upgrade?
It's 3 hits just like before and 2 after a +1 upgrade.
I disagree with praya as upgrades are of exactly the same import as before, aka huge. The game is the pretty much the same on the dmg/armor scale so in the build we played at least it felt 100% starcraftish on the upgrade department.
In case it wasn't clear, they changed the zergling speed gives +1/+1 for lings as well etc and went back to the normal +1/+1/+1 melee ranged armor grades at the evolution chambers. A pretty big change from before but really neccesairy cause else endgame units, especially units like ultras which are upgrade dependant who come late in the game start out upgradeless instead of with at least 2 armor like in SCBW.
A good change imho that they went back to basic on this one.
On July 01 2008 17:51 VIB wrote: Can you move a nydus worm back after you deployed one? Like if a zerg wants to send 1 drone to expand to an island expansion, do you have to use 1 overlord + 1 worm + leave that one worm there forever?
No you can't move it after you spawned one, they are exactly like the Nydus Entrances and Exits in SCBW on that department. They are just a 200hp building essentially.
And sadly yes, to expand to an island you have to float a lord down, spawn creep, spawn the worm, send a drone through and start hatching.
Worm exits, essentially as buildings (which cost 100 minerals to spawn on a 10 sec cooldown per nydus warren) remain indefinately when spawned.
Just imagine how much of a bitch it is to actually defend against a cliff drop with crap mutas, no drop and just a greater spire siege unit.
Have you experimented with any Zerg proxy strategies? Creep drop seems like a useful tool in this regard. Maybe some hidden tech (like Banelings)?
Also, from your experience, do you think Infestor's mana regenerating faster on creep could solve the lack-of-Consume problem, especially considering the creep drops (on the battlefield) from Overlords?
On July 01 2008 18:06 prayanavita wrote: FA: They are probably a bit too viable right now
lol Hi Jaap <3. Good thing you made an account to join the best community for BW out there muhahaha :d.
Banelings are far from too viable atm, vs noobs yeah they rape but with their speed and peculiars they were handleable with good micro and units like nullifiers and marauders really take the sting out of them. You can't expect pure zeals or pure rines (at least in low numbers aka early game) to fare well against their zerg equivelant the zergling while it's supported by gas units aka the banelings.
Add in marauders and nullifiers and the tables even out quite nicely from my (limited!) experience. Especially Sea pulled some CRAZY marauder marine micro to target slow my banelings with marauders and then stim split his rines while focus firing down my banelings in my second attack before even one could hit something.
On July 01 2008 18:13 VIB wrote: Can the queen deep tunnel to the nydus worm?
edit: and then can it heal the nydus worm?
edit2: Just got the hydralisk icon :D
Yes, and yes. In the latest build a queen could deep tunnel to a nydus worm and then yes heal it. It's not a heal like the medic or medivacs but it's an energy costing ability that you target and it instantly heals 400 hp on any friendly unit or building and it has a cooldown of a sec or 10 maybe a few more so quite considerable and with its not cheap energy cost I really felt like it should be shorter, healing an ultra would be potentially wicked though.
It's really effective to help heal your spinals at start vs a rine or zeal rush or heal a spinal in your main as you hold off a drop with a queen and one or two defensive structures. Huge Queen's are *wicked*, and hurt like hell, are as tough as an ultra, pack a punch, their heal is nice, deep burrow as escape as well as "teleport" is powerful and their "swarm infestation" ability does quite alot of damage and aoe rapes any group of marines that just got dropped for example without any problems. The Toxic creep ability however has been removed in the build that was available at WWI.
Wow I thought queen healing were for buildings only. Using that on units makes everything different :O Can you use swarm infestation on nydus worms too?
On July 01 2008 18:15 likeaboss wrote: Anyone who played sc2 know how long it takes for the ovies dropped creep to shrink? I mean this would render an expansion useless for a couple of mfinutes...... I cant really see something like this being stopped and it would hurt BADLYYYYYYYYYYYYY
The creep spawns really fast from an overlord pooping it out on the map and it disappears at quite a decent, however slower pace as well with no building on it. But by far not a few minutes, you do however need ranged/antiair units to deal with an overlord gaying up your potential expo.
But yeah once you get lair tech and can spend the mins/gas it's nice to have your overlords that are hanging everywhere to drop some poo on every expansion. I however didn't check (really stupid) if overlords just continue dropping creep forever even after the creepblot reaches its maximum size. If it does it means an overlord can just keep it there forever and function as a mobile creep tumor (colony) if you don't move it and cancel its generate creep ability.
To summarize: Generate Creep, requires lairtech and no additional research, once lair finishes it immediately becomes available to all overlords you control on the map.
It requires 50 minerals and 50 gas to start generating creep from a single overlord.
It spreads at an astounding rate and diminishes rather fast as well but albeit at a slower pace.
Yes it is great to start pooping some out if you scout a worker leaving for an expansion or if you can even keep him in his main till you get lair to hang your overlor just past the cliff and start dropping that goo to fuck him up even more once he breaks out or makes his move. It's really great and strategic.
Another good use I found for the generate creep ability was to hide a certain tech building in the remote corner or the map or on an empty island in the corner of space with the help of a worm .
On July 01 2008 19:37 VIB wrote: Wow I thought queen healing were for buildings only. Using that on units makes everything different :O Can you use swarm infestation on nydus worms too?
You can spawn Swarm Infestation on any place with creep, it doesn't target a building or all buildings in a certain AOE as it used to on a previous build that was discussed in a Q&A, it affects a small area of AOE, I cannot remember if there was a cooldown on it and if so how much it was. These little green flies spawn and start whittling down whatever comes near them, it seemed they attacked further out then the actual aoe spell indicator showed but I can be wrong about that.
On July 01 2008 18:15 likeaboss wrote: Anyone who played sc2 know how long it takes for the ovies dropped creep to shrink? I mean this would render an expansion useless for a couple of mfinutes...... I cant really see something like this being stopped and it would hurt BADLYYYYYYYYYYYYY
I thought creep disappeared rather quickly, faster than killing a hatch in SC1 and watching it disappear. Can't give you an exact time frame to verify your suspicions about possible abusive behavior.
Nicky are the one I played a couple of times?
IMO PvZ: 2 gate zeal is not a very valid strategy, banelings completely dominate zealots in every possible way. Also with just zeals there's nothing stopping a baneling from blowing up all probes. And in the current build zerg can get banelings out pretty quick.
yeah was me, didnt know for banelings OH one thing, ZvZ is still GAY and u need luck lol
Yup speedlings can go toe to toe with zeals pretty much at the goold old 4vs1 ratio SCBW had, banelings however turn these tables completely and are utter rape vs pure zeals. It's hylarious to lingkite zeals over some burrowed Blings, then engage while you unburrow banelings from behind and under them. Pure total exta... errr carnage^^.
On July 01 2008 19:24 maybenexttime wrote: Have you experimented with any Zerg proxy strategies? Creep drop seems like a useful tool in this regard. Maybe some hidden tech (like Banelings)?
Also, from your experience, do you think Infestor's mana regenerating faster on creep could solve the lack-of-Consume problem, especially considering the creep drops (on the battlefield) from Overlords?
Offensive hatchery is quite fun to pull off, creep damages buildings and combined with movable sunkens they make a a threat although I'm not too sure how well they work in a 'real game'
Don't you think creep drop should be a Hatchery level upgrade? That'd allow for more options early game, such as proxy Spine rushes, hidden Baneling tech, and such.
On July 01 2008 18:06 prayanavita wrote: FA: They are probably a bit too viable right now
lol Hi Jaap <3. Good thing you made an account to join the best community for BW out there muhahaha :d.
Banelings are far from too viable atm, vs noobs yeah they rape but with their speed and peculiars they were handleable with good micro and units like nullifiers and marauders really take the sting out of them. You can't expect pure zeals or pure rines (at least in low numbers aka early game) to fare well against their zerg equivelant the zergling while it's supported by gas units aka the banelings.
Add in marauders and nullifiers and the tables even out quite nicely from my (limited!) experience. Especially Sea pulled some CRAZY marauder marine micro to target slow my banelings with marauders and then stim split his rines while focus firing down my banelings in my second attack before even one could hit something.
Hey Nyovne,
yea my days of lurking are finally behind me, thought I'd give some input based on my experiences with SC2. Even with good micro banelings I found that they are quite hard to deal with.
On July 01 2008 19:18 VIB wrote: Good morning Nyovne ^^
Was that mutant larvae thing in the build you played? How does it work? Cost, food, move speed etc
A queen targets a larvae at a hatchery/lair/hive, spends some mana and watches the larvae mutate into a mutant larvae haha.
A larvae costs 1 psi and a little minerals and gas to morph, I actually forgot how much but it wasnt any great amount, really cheap in other words tt.
Mutate larvae has a cooldown, around 10 seconds.
After you morphed the mutant larvae you can just run it around the map like any unit you have even off creep but they dont have an attack.
What they do can though is to morph them into pretty much *any* zerg unit in about a second or two, literally, you still have to pay the normal unit cost though in adition to the mutate larvae cost. At certain points in my builds where I had more larvae then cash or at points I didnt pay attention to supply I spent my queen to transmute the exess spawning larvae on mutant larvae to not waste any larvae spawns. I still think there shouldn't be a cooldown on them and possibly not even a min/gas cost.
They just seem usefull if you can horde quite an ammount of them, and have alot of exess resources you could instantly morph a new army right after your old one dies to replenish it at any point on the map and sent them back in within 2 seconds after you lost your army. This obvously would require an appalling amount of resources in the bank and afterwards it would take ages again to replenish your mutant larvae count.
I even used them to create 1 or 2 clutch overlords when I forgot to build them in time to shorten my supply block . Yeah yeah im terrible :p.
On July 01 2008 19:24 maybenexttime wrote: Have you experimented with any Zerg proxy strategies? Creep drop seems like a useful tool in this regard. Maybe some hidden tech (like Banelings)?
Also, from your experience, do you think Infestor's mana regenerating faster on creep could solve the lack-of-Consume problem, especially considering the creep drops (on the battlefield) from Overlords?
Hehe yes I used it to walk spinal crawlers near neutral debris (like neutral buildings to block expos for example) and to clear them to open up a new passage to flank or to expand while I was attacking and my static defenses were sitting useless at home.
Or to creep up an expo and walk crawlers over to set up defenses before the hatch there finished (like cannoning up an expo before the nexus finishes).
Let alone to creep up in an opponents base, nydus worm it, send banelings and lings in after his workers and then send in 4-5 drones to start building spinal crawlers in his base.
Sadly Spinal and Spore crawlers cannot be transported through the Nydus network haha, that would be so great to be able to teleport colonies through your worm systems to expos or into an opponents base^^. Hope they look into it if its not too strong.
Don't forget creep actually damages opponents buildings! The more creep surrounds their buildings the more damage they sustain. When they are totally surrounded it actually hurts alot.
I found the generate creep ability great to block expansions, create nydus exits or for example vs a toss I first creep blocked his expo, then he scared my lord away, after the nex finished I started creeping up the pylon he warped in so he couldnt warp in any cannons while I was moving in to take down his expansion with my army.
I LOVE the generate creep ability so so much!
Hiding tech buildings is a fun idea and I did it a bit but banelings are tier 1 and generate creep is tier 2 for example hehe and everyone should know they are comming anyway :p.
Yes increased energy regeneration while on creep would help the Queen as well as Infestors alot and would be a great mechanic imho, but there hasn't been enough playtested, let alone that its the final version and everything will still change so I actually don't know and can't say if you actually *need* consume or an increased regeneration mechanic for those units to be effective and for the zerg to finish at a whole like defilers were essential for endgame vs ZvT in SCBW.
So I can't even say if theres a problem that needs fixing.
p.s. queens are a fuckload stronger while on creep, attackspeed and movementspeed + regeneration wise.
What speed does mutant larvas move at? Speedling speed, reaver speed or something between? How is their survivability? Like a drone or like a sc1 egg?
Can you use it to morph evolved stuff like banelings/lurker/guardians?
I imagine it could be nice to 1) morph slow building units such as ultralisks. 2) build counters faster. ex.: you get rushed by air so you are desperate to get corrupters before banshees kills something important, so while your lair is building you start getting mutant larvas whenever cooldown is up then as soon as it complete, bam 10 corrupters go kill the banshees 3) rushes, muta rush for example, start getting larvas while lair/spire are building, once they're done, bam 10 instant mutas gogo
Yeah, mutant larvas seem to be an excellent idea when preparing for a cheese. You can get the appropriate counter in no time, assuming you have the tech. ^___^
On July 01 2008 19:40 FrozenArbiter wrote: Does the mothership still cloak units? Are nukes a lot better than they used to be in SC1?
I haven't built or even watched a mothership so I cannot answer on that question, I just know they still have that timewarp (slow projectiles) and a mass recall/summon ability, for the rest I can't say except they have a decent attack and are slow as hell. I still think they should project a permanent powerfield like a pylon so you can warp in units beneath them instead of a recall ability so they can just create a powerfull pushing force as it moves forward and instantly replenishes the loses beneath it.
At least that sounds like a unique, cool and powerful mechanic but it might obviously be too powerfull if you can just 15 warpgate warp-in beneath it right into combat. (which it prolly is but it just conjures the most cool battlefield scenes into my mind :p)
Nukes are still as expensive, cost less supply though and are buildable with just a ghost academy and a starport. A ghost academy requires nothing but a barracks and a starport just a factory as normal so you can totally get them in midgame.
Nukes do 800 damage instead of the good old 500 so yes they are more powerful, more accessible, and easier to use since SC2 has a lack of easy access detection compared to SCBW and ghosts are real killers now. Totally accessible midgame tool for terrans now, good job from blizzard on that one.
Haji was nuking the shit out of some zerg, we were discussing strats and I and im pretty sure he as well went marine marauder off two rax, one with reactor one with techlab for a couple of games to perfect the build/timing and then after pushing added ghosts and vikings for nukes/snipes/and ghost assasination while overlord and overseer harassing with Vikings. It looked really cool :D.
No idea if it's actually viable since the only people I used it against were total scrubs or just a bit decent but noone good. It's definately a cool strat to be playing as it felt really dynamic and doing alot of cool shit.
srly I dont wanna know how many drones haji nuked to shit in that one game and then he rolled in with like 8 medivacs full of marines hahaha, looked soooo sick. Softening up defenses with nukes and then hardcore dropping that million man marine march is just.. wow cool to see.
On July 01 2008 19:50 maybenexttime wrote: Don't you think creep drop should be a Hatchery level upgrade? That'd allow for more options early game, such as proxy Spine rushes, hidden Baneling tech, and such.
Definately not, it's really really powerful and especially vs P you can easily prevent any expansion till he gains reliable anti air to keep those lords away. Offensive creeping and creative creeping seemed more then powerfull enough at lair level which you can still aquire really fast even with the 150/200 cost.
So from me to you, generate creep is fine where it is. It might however change to an upgrade instead of a passively gained ability that gets unlocked at lair tech would feel fitting as well.
It however costs mins and gas per time you start generating so I think it's fine as it is and an awsome mechanic to boot.
On July 01 2008 19:24 maybenexttime wrote: Have you experimented with any Zerg proxy strategies? Creep drop seems like a useful tool in this regard. Maybe some hidden tech (like Banelings)?
Also, from your experience, do you think Infestor's mana regenerating faster on creep could solve the lack-of-Consume problem, especially considering the creep drops (on the battlefield) from Overlords?
Offensive hatchery is quite fun to pull off, creep damages buildings and combined with movable sunkens they make a a threat although I'm not too sure how well they work in a 'real game'
Better to proxy generate creep then to build a hatch, why wait a min when you can just wait 5 seconds? :D
On July 01 2008 20:22 VIB wrote: What speed does mutant larvas move at? Speedling speed, reaver speed or something between? How is their survivability? Like a drone or like a sc1 egg?
Can you use it to morph evolved stuff like banelings/lurker/guardians?
I imagine it could be nice to 1) morph slow building units such as ultralisks. 2) build counters faster. ex.: you get rushed by air so you are desperate to get corrupters before banshees kills something important, so while your lair is building you start getting mutant larvas whenever cooldown is up then as soon as it complete, bam 10 corrupters go kill the banshees 3) rushes, muta rush for example, start getting larvas while lair/spire are building, once they're done, bam 10 instant mutas gogo
As far as I know you can only morph into normal units not into the upgraded forms of units.
Movement speed is actually quite slow, on creep it's about 2/3 of the speed of a drone and when you walk on normal terrain they slow down to about one thirds of their original speed. So moving them towards and enemy base would take quite some time. The best use for mutant larvae I found was that you could save up more larvae because the hatch doesn't count mutant larvae. Using them for ultras would be nice but the 200/400 pricetag makes them quite expensive.
On July 01 2008 18:06 prayanavita wrote: FA: They are probably a bit too viable right now
lol Hi Jaap <3. Good thing you made an account to join the best community for BW out there muhahaha :d.
Banelings are far from too viable atm, vs noobs yeah they rape but with their speed and peculiars they were handleable with good micro and units like nullifiers and marauders really take the sting out of them. You can't expect pure zeals or pure rines (at least in low numbers aka early game) to fare well against their zerg equivelant the zergling while it's supported by gas units aka the banelings.
Add in marauders and nullifiers and the tables even out quite nicely from my (limited!) experience. Especially Sea pulled some CRAZY marauder marine micro to target slow my banelings with marauders and then stim split his rines while focus firing down my banelings in my second attack before even one could hit something.
Hey Nyovne,
yea my days of lurking are finally behind me, thought I'd give some input based on my experiences with SC2. Even with good micro banelings I found that they are quite hard to deal with.
<3, being hard to deal with is a good thing as it implies skill required. Impossible to effectively deal with is a whole other matter though .
I applaud everything that requires or would require good tight micro and unit control.
On July 01 2008 19:24 maybenexttime wrote: Have you experimented with any Zerg proxy strategies? Creep drop seems like a useful tool in this regard. Maybe some hidden tech (like Banelings)?
Also, from your experience, do you think Infestor's mana regenerating faster on creep could solve the lack-of-Consume problem, especially considering the creep drops (on the battlefield) from Overlords?
Offensive hatchery is quite fun to pull off, creep damages buildings and combined with movable sunkens they make a a threat although I'm not too sure how well they work in a 'real game'
Better to proxy generate creep then to build a hatch, why wait a min when you can just wait 5 seconds? :D
Because it's quite pimp to set up your hatchery right next to their nexus.
As I said no real world use but versus the wow-players at WWI it's funny to do.
On July 01 2008 20:22 VIB wrote: What speed does mutant larvas move at? Speedling speed, reaver speed or something between? How is their survivability? Like a drone or like a sc1 egg?
Can you use it to morph evolved stuff like banelings/lurker/guardians?
I imagine it could be nice to 1) morph slow building units such as ultralisks. 2) build counters faster. ex.: you get rushed by air so you are desperate to get corrupters before banshees kills something important, so while your lair is building you start getting mutant larvas whenever cooldown is up then as soon as it complete, bam 10 corrupters go kill the banshees 3) rushes, muta rush for example, start getting larvas while lair/spire are building, once they're done, bam 10 instant mutas gogo
They are as fast as unupgraded zerglings (exactly the same).
And no you cannot morph them into any evolved forms, just the basic unit types so no guards, banelings, lurkers.
Mostly its nice to have some clutch units when you need them (and if you can afford them) or to instant spawn a huge ass army if you can afford it with massive banked resources.
Just you mutate a larvae, you don't spawn one. So every mutant larvae you make didnt grow into a unit that you are actively using. That combined with the cooldown on the ability along with the min/gas cost makes it that its challenging/not easy to accuire a decent amount of them, and remember that they are 1 supply each, so idle mutant larvae are just taking up supply and resources while doing nothing at all for you.
It's a very interesting mechanic that has alot of promise but Id have to play it alot more vs proper people in proper games to find out if they are actually worth a damn in practise and not just in theory.
My feel tells me its a really cool mechanic but really needs some tweaking as it feels not practical at the moment at all. It's promising and I really hope blizz works it out somehow. Things like not requiring a larvae to mutate but that the queen just spawns them herself and them not taking up supply are a few things that come to mind.
On July 01 2008 19:24 maybenexttime wrote: Have you experimented with any Zerg proxy strategies? Creep drop seems like a useful tool in this regard. Maybe some hidden tech (like Banelings)?
Also, from your experience, do you think Infestor's mana regenerating faster on creep could solve the lack-of-Consume problem, especially considering the creep drops (on the battlefield) from Overlords?
Offensive hatchery is quite fun to pull off, creep damages buildings and combined with movable sunkens they make a a threat although I'm not too sure how well they work in a 'real game'
Better to proxy generate creep then to build a hatch, why wait a min when you can just wait 5 seconds? :D
Because it's quite pimp to set up your hatchery right next to their nexus.
As I said no real world use but versus the wow-players at WWI it's funny to do.
Haha yeah some shit was just really funny to pull off vs scrubs :D.
And yeah 2 sec hatching ultras are good stuff, sadly I didnt get arround to use hive tech efficiently a) cause games just ended midgame or b) cause you didnt have enough gas to effectively mass/use any amount of hive tech units.
On July 01 2008 20:57 VIB wrote: lol you guys are awesome, this is the best thread ever <3
Can corruptors infest colossi?
Can infestors cast while burrowed?
Yes Corruptors can infest Collossi, just keep in mind that infested "turrets", which is effectively what units turn into can only fire their air to air attacks. In short, a infested collossus is nothing more then a nice battlefield ornament for the whole amazing *COUGH* 10 seconds that it lasts before it crumbles down.
Srly just *lol* at the hive tech level upgrade "enduring corruption" which adds like 5-10 secs to the already amazingly short corruption duration. That plus corruptors suck amazingly huge dick, even though they are pretty fast (mediumish speed), relatively cheap 100/75/2. They somehow just didn't convince me but massed vs mass air they absolutely rape, but the place they have in the techtree is just wrong at the moment.
They are as fast as unupgraded zerglings (exactly the same).
Are you sure about that, I thought they were slower than that? And they do actually slow down a lot when you move them off the creep.
Please correct me if I'm wrong here Nyovne
I didnt pay attention to them off creep so they might as well slow down there, I'll take your word on it since I didn't check it at all. So its medium speed on creep and slow speed off, that makes sense.
Oh btw they do have the 10 armor that a normal larvae has .
On July 01 2008 20:57 VIB wrote: lol you guys are awesome, this is the best thread ever <3
Can corruptors infest colossi?
Can infestors cast while burrowed?
Oh infestors cannot cast while burrowed, they can still move while burrowed though ^^. And they cannot burrow through a cliff side, so youll have to take the ramp (which is easily guarded with detection sadly) to get into his base to infest something for example.
I didnt pay attention to them off creep so they might as well slow down there, I'll take your word on it since I didn't check it at all. So its medium speed on creep and slow speed off, that makes sense.
Oh btw they do have the 10 armor that a normal larvae has .
I wonder if they can be used to block units, didn't get a chance to try that out. You could use them as free meatshields or to stop block enemies so then can't run from banelings. Ah well at least I have some stuff to try out at Blizzcon now.
I didnt pay attention to them off creep so they might as well slow down there, I'll take your word on it since I didn't check it at all. So its medium speed on creep and slow speed off, that makes sense.
Oh btw they do have the 10 armor that a normal larvae has .
I wonder if they can be used to block units, didn't get a chance to try that out. You could use them as free meatshields or to stop block enemies so then can't run from banelings. Ah well at least I have some stuff to try out at Blizzcon now.
I can tell you already that won't happen :p, a) too slow and b) ever tried to block a ramp with zeals against speed lings in SC2? They pretty much just run straight through as units are exactly as large as their model apears to be and ramps are just as wide . Took like 5 zeals to block a normal ramp haha.
:D But yeah creative thinking is the way to go, it's so exciting to try out new games ;ooo.
I wanna go to blizzcon but prolly can't get it done financially so that kinda blows huge ass.
protoss is really fun to play. it seemed really overpowered too, but i didnt get to play many good players and 3/4 of my games vs sea and savior were pvp.
gameplay(mainly toss): theres so much gay fun stuff you can do early/mid game with blink, warp gates (+phase prisms), collosi, nullifiers. stalkers+nullifiers were a really good pairing, blink micro is pretty strong in battles in general(you can look pretty cool while doing it too, its basically super flashy goon dancing) and it becomes insanely good when you can do it around force field blocks. + Show Spoiler +
cute story. i had a stalker army with nullifier support against some player (decent, not great) who had a bunch of zealots with charge. he ran in, they autosurrounded my stalkers in a tight passage so i was basically fucked. cast 4 forcefields, completely trapping both our armies between 2 pairs, and then blinked half my stalkers out on each side. killed all the zeals and only lost a couple of stalkers. i can kinda see why blizzard thought little micro tricks like that could be substitutes for manual macro
walking/blinking over cliffs + warping in allows you to attack just about anywhere at any time, lots of fun harass potential(as well as the ability to get a pretty strong army inside their base really fast, dropping a phase prism and making a round from your warp gates is like a slightly smaller mid game recall, basically). dont know how effective it will be vs good players, but i think it will end up like sc1, where you cant really defend against all potential harass cost effectively. it might not be as exciting as reaver drops but it feels like theyre going to manage to maintain some of the fast paced high risk/reward harass options we're used to. zerg has a similar ability with the nydus worms. its insanely easy to get one into their base if you keep them busy elsewhere (if you arent watching your base the moment the overlord drops creep/dont have static defense everywhere the nydus worm is going to finish, it just happens so fast). i didnt get to try much with terrans, i heard marine + medivac drops were really good though.
you can also play straight up, just macroing and overrunning them. fast expo seemed viable, but i didnt face any hard allins from good players, the 5 minerals/gather thing messes with the timing a bit but its not too much. cannons seemed to get a bit of a buff but thats just subjective, i didnt check any of the numbers. after a succesful fast expo its pretty easy to just run them over since you can macro perfectly (more on that later).
fast exp was my main build pvz as if you get into mid/late game with an econ advantage theyre fucked since collosi rape zerg once you get 3-4 or more up. zeal/collosus played like the new zealot/archon, pretty strong and versatile. vs someone who abuses banelings its not as good though, collosi dont put out damage fast enough to protect your zeals, and once theyre down the collosi follow pretty quick. more immortal/stalker heavy armys cleans up pretty well vs that though, either just absorbing it on immortal shields or blink micro with stalkers.
cyber cores cost 100 gas now, really fucks up pvp imo. (other mus too i suppose, but i noticed it most pvp). you cannot go zeal first from your main. the most efficient stalker rush build (which is actually a gas before gateway build, as far as i can tell) gets a stalker out just a little bit after the first zealot gets to your base, normal probe micro + the stalker takes out the zeal. zeal protoss then just get overpowered, since you have to get your own 100 gas before making a cyber and getting stalkers. (stalkers can take zeals pretty easy with normal old goon dancing, without blink). but if you center 2 gate zealot you can overpower someone doing a stalker rush, so its pretty much rock paper scissors atm.
pvt i didnt play many games that i could learn anything from, all the good people i played used p/z. infantry is definitely way stronger now, 2 rax marines beat the stalker equivalent of sc1 dragoon opening pvt, zealots can hold the marines but marine/maurader rapes the shit out of zealots. not sure how the timing works out for zealot/stalker vs marine/maurader, but the maurader's slowing thing makes zealots pretty much useless (esp once marines get their upgrades), so i wouldnt count on it being very good. i woulda liked to play more against good terrans, i never really worked out what the best opening was. i think it might end up being cannon + fe since tanks are more expensive now.
interface: some of the automicroing features that theyre building in are a bit upsetting, stuff like autosurround is the micro version of mbs but that might just be a result of the improved (much, much improved) pathing. it would be nice if we could get rid of them but i kind of think thats a lost cause, and the automatic macro features are far more worrying.
as for mbs, it makes a huge difference. like others have said with the current build you go 5zzzzzsssss to make 5 zeals and 5 stalkers. its a bit of a compromise but to be honest its not much better than 5z6s=5 zeal 5 stalker. with that system you have to have seperate sets of gateways on different hotkeys in order to make different units (or you have production rounds of only one unit, which is bad in alot of situations) and to modify the ratios of units you have to go back to your base and change the gateway groupings. as it is there is absolutely no reason to go back to your base except to build buildings. im not sure if blizzard was missing that point or just didnt care, but its irrelevant how hard you make the execution of mbs (5tabztabztabz or whatever), if you dont have to go back to your base its still going to make the game worse because you dont force the tradeoff between micro/macro that keeps starcraft diverse.
automining was also huge, especially given the combination with mbs. 0eeee and your entire economy is taken care of, instead of sc where you have to change screen locations 4 times, click each nexus, and click/gather each new probe. honestly that is probably bigger than the unit production aspect of mbs. any half decent player can now have perfect econ management. (i dont mean expo timing and the like, that is still a skill. im referring to the mechanics of running your economy)
overall the gameplay is very fun and, i think, has the potential to be just as good a competitive game as sc1(if not better), theres alot of stuff that i could see being overpowered or underpowered, but thats not going to change until they get good players playing it on a large scale so its pointless to worry about at the moment. but they really need to stop focusing on modernizing the interface. it wont be immediately apparent at first, because everyone will be busy trying to figure out how to play the game, but once we start figuring out efficient build orders and strategies (and everyone starts using them), i think its going to become pretty apparent how badly these features limit the skill cap. hopefully blizzard sees that coming and is willing to take them out despite the fact that they arent immediately game breaking. the fact that they are experimenting with mbs is a good sign in that direction, i hope.
hmmm... the larvas sound really good for proxy rushes. Many BOs will prolly include strategic larva creation. Keep pumping larvas and sending them to the enemy door. Once your tech is complete (hydra/muta/infestor whatever) you build many in no time right at his door. You trade money for speed and pressure, a good trade when you wanna punish someone for going FE or something risky.
You keep saying late game sucked because you always lacked gas. Is that because it was to hard to keep renewing all extractors over and over? So overall the new gas system sucked?
Oh and was that thing that allows you to put extra workers on gas every 2min there? Good?
On July 01 2008 22:23 IdrA wrote: automining was also huge, especially given the combination with mbs. 0eeee and your entire economy is taken care of, instead of sc where you have to change screen locations 4 times, click each nexus, and click/gather each new probe. honestly that is probably bigger than the unit production aspect of mbs. any half decent player can now have perfect econ management. (i dont mean expo timing and the like, that is still a skill. im referring to the mechanics of running your economy)
overall the gameplay is very fun and, i think, has the potential to be just as good a competitive game as sc1(if not better), theres alot of stuff that i could see being overpowered or underpowered, but thats not going to change until they get good players playing it on a large scale so its pointless to worry about at the moment. but they really need to stop focusing on modernizing the interface. it wont be immediately apparent at first, because everyone will be busy trying to figure out how to play the game, but once we start figuring out efficient build orders and strategies (and everyone starts using them), i think its going to become pretty apparent how badly these features limit the skill cap. hopefully blizzard sees that coming and is willing to take them out despite the fact that they arent immediately game breaking. the fact that they are experimenting with mbs is a good sign in that direction, i hope.
I'm totally with you on this one, pretty much sums up what ive been spamming in this thread and advocating at our TL meets in Paris.
Great post, also good meeting you irl and having some drinks :D.
On July 01 2008 22:25 VIB wrote: hmmm... the larvas sound really good for proxy rushes. Many BOs will prolly include strategic larva creation. Keep pumping larvas and sending them to the enemy door. Once your tech is complete (hydra/muta/infestor whatever) you build many in no time right at his door. You trade money for speed and pressure, a good trade when you wanna punish someone for going FE or something risky.
You keep saying late game sucked because you always lacked gas. Is that because it was to hard to keep renewing all extractors over and over? So overall the new gas system sucked?
Oh and was that thing that allows you to put extra workers on gas every 2min there? Good?
Thanks again for the help man
That seems to be a misconception, the gas system worked like this: once a geyser depleted an option apeared once you selected them which allowed you to spend minerals to undeplete it for a little while which also triggered a cooldown on the ability. I generally liked it but that was especially cause all geysers just had 1000 gas in them on every map that was playable except the golden mineral expos where geysers had 1500 (but mine at the normal rate, there isnt any high yield gas geyser yet that we could play).
I think they made everything low amounts of gas geysers so people would actually discover and explore the gas mechanic.
The lack of having a good amount of non depleted geysers was mostly the problem to succesfully access endgame tech I felt, that and the fact that I didnt have a single game that really went to endgame.
On July 01 2008 22:39 maybenexttime wrote: "Oh and was that thing that allows you to put extra workers on gas every 2min there?"
No, Dustin Browder explained that they're gonna implement either of them but not both.
Yeah in the build we played it wasn't implemented.
I prefer the one that was implemented (even though it requires no effort since you can just put all your geysers under 1 hotkey and spam it whenever it comes up again), as it exchanges a limited resource for an unlimited one which is at the very least interesting (for me) and it makes these low gas geysers + that an interesting map features.
On July 01 2008 22:55 VIB wrote: Oh so you're saying that the gas rate from 2 gas in sc2 in less than the gas rate from 1 gas in sc1, if both are not depleted?
Affirmative, 2 gas is like 1.5 gas or a bit less in SCBW. Allows for alot of deviation in strats I guess and in map design/balancing.
edit: on an additional note, all the map we played started out with 2 geysers in main subsequently.
On July 01 2008 23:26 SoleSteeler wrote: I'm a little bit confused as to how the Marauder works.
What does it require to build? (I think before it was Barracks and Factory?)
Is it 1 food?
Does it come with the slowing AoE attack? (Could you explain exactly how it works?)
Lastly, are they stimmable and healable?
It builds from the barracks and it requires nothing but a barracks with an attached techlab.
I dont know if it's 1 food, hope someone else can clarify on that? Totally forgot to pay attention to most details while I was playing T or P.
They come with a small aoe slowing attack yes, and it's increadibly powerful from the looks of it.
They are not stimmable but yes they are healable 150 hp 1 armor 16 aoe +6dmg vs armored aoe slowing huge powercombatsuited bastards. Their cost of 150/50 seemed alot but I dunno how it plays out in a proper build, when I played good terrans they seemed to have a decent army size with a couple of the bastards backing up their marines.
So the slowing is a small AoE, cool. That makes a bit more sense as to why people are able to (seemingly) slow whole armies without (probably, except for Sea) really good micro.
Thank you for all your hard work in this thread :D
... I dont know if it's 1 food, hope someone else can clarify on that? Totally forgot to pay attention to most details while I was playing T or P. ... .
Thanks for the posts! I really am very very disappointed in the reaper and jackal... :/
You said a viking rush didn't seem to viable in TvZ... What of a mixed viking / banshee / ghost type army (a strat that i theorycrafted a long time ago). I see that haji was apparently doing something similar but including nuke as well?
Also, is the planetary fortress's gun useful at all? And are nukes worth not having comsat?
Nukes are built in the Ghost Academy, so no need to scrap the comsat for that.
I only saw the planetary fortress in action against a Roach, it sucked pretty hard versus that. Roach heals quicker than the gun can deal damage. Maybe it's good against lings or something.
The mixed army you are describing is very hard to make due to the gas requirements by those units.
On July 02 2008 00:19 anotak wrote: Thanks for the posts! I really am very very disappointed in the reaper and jackal... :/
You said a viking rush didn't seem to viable in TvZ... What of a mixed viking / banshee / ghost type army (a strat that i theorycrafted a long time ago). I see that haji was apparently doing something similar but including nuke as well?
Also, is the planetary fortress's gun useful at all? And are nukes worth not having comsat?
Banshee's felt soo good. They don't even do splash anymore but they still rape so hard from my (extremely limited) experience.
I'd personally aim for marine marauder with a couple of medivacs and a nomad and then start adding ghosts (who's snipe with smart casting is just so hardcore) and vikings or vikings and banshees depending on your fancy and depending on what hes doing.
But srly damn marine marauder banshee with some medivacs and 1-2 nomads is just one hardcore combination. It felt really really good at least, but kennigit had more experience then me with Banshees and prolly had a few actually decent games with them so I hope he reads this and pipes in or else you can just PM and ask him I guess unless someone else can give a good account of them from a proper game.
With 2-3 ghosts, sniping overseers or just simply shooting down down in case of observers while dropping a nuke is just so hardcore. 3 ghosts, 1 dropping the nuke and two sniping/focussing down detection and EMPing toss buildings before it drops for example. So incredibly cool. It just costs a boatload of gas to do what I just summed up though lol.
Planetary fortress is nice vs ling and especially baneling raids. It really rips up tier one units with the exception of roaches but after that it pretty much becomes useless. Didn't really have a proper game though, I just found it nice vs banelings/lings in small groups to assist my bunker and turret at my 3rd base and I used it in the single game at the whole of WWI where someone used reapers against me (which got torn up pretty damn badly by it).
Oh btw Chill was really hyped about the jackal and I didn't really get to play much with them and found them a bit mediocre. I hope he pops by this thread to give his account of them.
On July 02 2008 01:14 FrozenArbiter wrote: Can you lift off your CC once you add a planetary fortress or a comsat now? I know in the earlier builds (blizzconish) you couldn't.
You can't when you change it to a planetary fortress, but yes you can when you add a comsat. I remember checking it cause I hovered over comsat and saw nothing special in the description and then checked the Fort and saw it explicitly mentioned it couldn't lift anymore.
You said upgrades are about the same as before now. Are they still calculated the same way by addition substraction like in bw (10 dmg - 2 armor = 8 dmg) or is it by multiplication like in wc3 (10 dmg - 20% armor = 8 dmg)?
On July 02 2008 01:57 VIB wrote: You said upgrades are about the same as before now. Are they still calculated the same way by addition substraction like in bw (10 dmg - 2 armor = 8 dmg) or is it by multiplication like in wc3 (10 dmg - 20% armor = 8 dmg)?
On July 02 2008 02:04 Cpt.Cocaine wrote: Zerg sound like all their units are expensive and slow as hell. Makes me want to switch to terran. :/
Not really, tier one zerg units are cheap as hell. Tier two is just a bit of a bitch but might just be getting used to since mutas still cost the same, hydras are 100/100 and infestors aren't cheap either nor are the buildings that allow them to be built but it's still managable, just the damn 300 gas on spire is overkill in about any build I tried to fit it in. Corruptors arent expensive either, just 100/75 (real cheap on gas for an air unit).
Ultras are murderously expensive though (200 or 300 mins, think 300 and 400 gas tt) and heavy on supply as well (6), but then again so are thors and collossi as well so its all in line.
But zerg is far from expensive and slow as hell. Zerg is really really fast and dynamic and its so easy to mass roaches lings or blings its scary.
So sorry if I made it sound the wrong way but the impression I gave you is far from the one I want to leave on people.
It's not that, it was mostly an impression I got from watching gameplay videos, the recent ZvT from this weekend, namely. It made roaches look slow and clumsy, and then hearing about ultras and lurkers being slower than their SC1 counterparts was somewhat discouraging, on top of hydras costing quadruple what they did before. I haven't played the game myself though, so I don't know how the vespene economy works in comparison with SC1. I'm glad to see you still think zerg are fast paced, that reassures me somewhat.
On July 02 2008 02:04 Cpt.Cocaine wrote: Zerg sound like all their units are expensive and slow as hell. Makes me want to switch to terran. :/
It isn't that bad with zerg, I played most of my games with zerg. I thought they were the most fun to play with. Just wait untill you do your first baneling rush against protoss annd you will fall in love with em again.
So which units in your impression needs to be "fixed". Or is it to early to tell (like you need a proper beta?)
We know they need to fix mutas and they said they are working on that. It also sounds like they need to fix corrupters, lurkers and reapers. Anything else that stands out?
On July 02 2008 02:58 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: So which units in your impression needs to be "fixed". Or is it to early to tell (like you need a proper beta?)
We know they need to fix mutas and they said they are working on that. It also sounds like they need to fix corrupters, lurkers and reapers. Anything else that stands out?
I would like to see the colossus out of the game. They are incredibly boring units, microwise.
Nydusworms (not really a unit but still) are too good. Currently it is like having recall in early game.
well, from some hearsays, seems terran is gonna be stabilized (semi-done)? What do you think of terran, Thor really worth build at all? is there any unit not really useful in terran's arsenal?
Thor is a cool unit concept but its not gonna stand the test of time unless that can give players a reason to use it. Unless they do it soon, the thor is gonna get lost, unfortunately.
1) Did anyone look closer to Range Indicator? On SC2 streamed games it looked like it's permanent for some ranged units like Siege Tank? What happens when multiple Tanks are selected? Also what could be those circles around bases, because I have no idea what they indicated???
2) Idra wrote that after microing some Stalkers and Nullifiers he understands Blizzard's point of view on MBS. If auto-mining would be cut, leaving worker icon, would micro like above even for MBS? What do you think, experienced ones ?
This is interesting even more because as I read in interview with Dustin Browder (from SCwire Q&A thread) he seemed to like to talk about the game but not with some official media; What's more I read Gamespot's coverage on WWI SC2 and it's poor as hell IMO, nothing close to this thread
In summary, maybe some interface changes are more to please media, not some noobs?
On July 02 2008 03:59 hzhao wrote: well, from some hearsays, seems terran is gonna be stabilized (semi-done)? What do you think of terran, Thor really worth build at all? is there any unit not really useful in terran's arsenal?
Hehe, funny you should put it like that. If there's one useless unit in the terran army it would be the Thor. It's as huge as they get but it just can't seem to do any serious damage. Now I did not use it against any air so maybe it rocks versus air. But really, would you use a fat saggy goliath that moves at 5 mph to defend your base from air raids? In short, I used it, I laughed at it, I vowed not to build it again.
Repair is the only thing it has going for it, when it dies it leaves a some scrap that disappears after about 15 seconds (guessing here, did not time it). When you send an SCV you can revive it. I thought it was annoying to have the wreckage on the battlefield, doesn't do it for me
Reapers kinda suck as mentioned but Nyovne several times. And I just don't like the Mediviac but I'll stop there because everyone has already jumped on that bandwagon.
On July 02 2008 07:33 MrRammstein wrote: Next 2 questions:
1) Did anyone try Maruders + Jackals combo, especially against Zerglings?
2) Does Thor has it's Bombardment ability?
I played a 1:1 where a terran surprised me with a couple of jackals. I had about 30 zerglings vs 5-6 jackals, tried to do a surround but half of my zerglings were dead before I knew it. See yea they work kinda nice against Zerglings. Another detail about that, I tested jackals vs Dark Swarm, they kill just like firebats.
Did not see a Thor Bombardment ability, maybe I missed it.
No plz :D I'd be very interested in hearing more about the medivac. Everyone who went so far, that we've heard from, said they liked it while almost everyone hated it previously so I'd be very interested to hear as much as possible about this unit.. If you don't mind
For me it is a subjective problem I have with the Medivac. I don't like the idea of a floating ship dumping HP on the units below. Maybe it is because when I get hurt I would rather be bandaged by a cute nurse than by nanopods flying at me from the skies. Perhaps I have to get use to the fact that Blizzard is trying to make Bio a choice for the whole game (instead of mostly early/mid game) by making you tech up to Starport before you can finish your army. Plus I did not like the fact that it only has 7 slots for units.
On July 02 2008 07:54 prayanavita wrote: For me it is a subjective problem I have with the Medivac. I don't like the idea of a floating ship dumping HP on the units below. Maybe it is because when I get hurt I would rather be bandaged by a cute nurse than by nanopods flying at me from the skies. Perhaps I have to get use to the fact that Blizzard is trying to make Bio a choice for the whole game (instead of mostly early/mid game) by making you tech up to Starport before you can finish your army. Plus I did not like the fact that it only has 7 slots for units.
Tanks need old 4 slots?
Maybe Medivac healing will make more sense when Blizz finishes way it heals aka dispatching some drones... nothing near Medic but one woman is piloting it right ?
edit: Did anyone try putting Vikings into Medivac ;D?
On July 02 2008 07:54 prayanavita wrote: For me it is a subjective problem I have with the Medivac. I don't like the idea of a floating ship dumping HP on the units below. Maybe it is because when I get hurt I would rather be bandaged by a cute nurse than by nanopods flying at me from the skies. Perhaps I have to get use to the fact that Blizzard is trying to make Bio a choice for the whole game (instead of mostly early/mid game) by making you tech up to Starport before you can finish your army. Plus I did not like the fact that it only has 7 slots for units.
Tanks need old 4 slots?
Maybe Medivac healing will make more sense when Blizz finishes way it heals aka dispatching some drones... nothing near Medic but one woman is piloting it right ?
edit: Did anyone try putting Vikings into Medivac ;D?
I only put a ghost in it so I can't really tell you more than that. Ghost takes one slots by the way and is thereby probably the most expensive 1 slot unit.
Yea 100 mins and 200 gas is nowhere to being cheap ... talking about unit's costs do you think they will change much? TBH I'm surprised that Banelings cost 25/25 not (as I read) previous 25/50 and Ghost 100/200 not 100/100... can it be to promote some units but avoid showing other as overpowered?
hmmm about Medivac again yeah give us more info :D what can it carry how many slots it takes etc
and about transporting I read idea (on sc2armory) of Nomads transporting vehicles? was it in build ?
edit: where abilities like Charge or Blink possible to turn off, so they aren't auto-casted?
I was away all night after comming home with to my appartment and had a great night out on the town with my friends, so I'll fix my neglect of you tomorrow when I wake up and reply to whats been posted here got quite a few things to say about what's been said on this page :p.
FA: Lets say Medivacs make me frustrated that there's no scourges in the game anymore which I've missed on *alot* of occasions. If there's one unit I really want back in the game, and even more so then the original medic (even with jetpacks!) it's the scourge. With distance...
On July 02 2008 12:03 Nyovne wrote: I was away all night after comming home with to my appartment and had a great night out on the town with my friends, so I'll fix my neglect of you tomorrow when I wake up and reply to whats been posted here got quite a few things to say about what's been said on this page :p.
FA: Lets say Medivacs make me frustrated that there's no scourges in the game anymore which I've missed on *alot* of occasions. If there's one unit I really want back in the game, and even more so then the original medic (even with jetpacks!) it's the scourge. With distance...
Anyways till tomorrow, peace out.
Can't wait for it 1 thing Frozen Arbiter mentioned are Medivacs flying over army, distracting micro, so is there some way to drag selected those Marines and w/e without Medivacs?
I really hope they leave the "spotlight" healing animation in the map editor for the medivac. A better animation will be needed for the real game, but I see endless possibilities for UFO-themed custom maps!
Did zerg egg hatching and building animations look better then the earlier build? Before the larvae just instantly turned into egg w no animtion and then turned into zerg guy with no animation. Where these animations present?
Sam with the drones turning into buildins and the hatchery turning into lair/hive. They seemed to be missing those animations. everything was instant.
Sad about the lurker and infestor!!?? Karune said like months ago they already created a new model for that like wtf?
And can you tell us more about changelings and what the zerg spawn swarm look like and do? Does it need an upgrade?
And does anyone know if where any sc pics from wwi present other then the 8 blizz released? thx
2) Idra wrote that after microing some Stalkers and Nullifiers he understands Blizzard's point of view on MBS. If auto-mining would be cut, leaving worker icon, would micro like above even for MBS? What do you think, experienced ones ?
i said i understand why they thought it would compensate, but theyre still wrong. after a couple of days of playing the game good players will be able to do stuff like that as easily as theyre able to dance goons and split rines now.
mbs definitely needs to go, as does automining. i dont think the idle worker thing is that big a deal.
oh and something i forgot to mention, the new gas mechanic i dont see why theyre willing to put something that artificial and contrived in while having such a problem with manual macro.
that being said, i think they should try removing the gas mechanic but keeping the current setup, with most tech units being very gas-heavy and each assimilator having only 1000 gas. without being able to refresh your gasses it would force you to expand pretty aggressively, keeping the game fast paced. you could already see some of that in the wwi games. if you didnt keep up in expansions mid game you would end up with zealot heavy armies vs collosus based armies, doesnt work out too well.
On July 02 2008 13:18 Invisible_Zergling wrote: Hey nyvone or anyone here that attended wwi.
Did zerg egg hatching and building animations look better then the earlier build? Before the larvae just instantly turned into egg w no animtion and then turned into zerg guy with no animation. Where these animations present?
Sam with the drones turning into buildins and the hatchery turning into lair/hive. They seemed to be missing those animations. everything was instant.
Sad about the lurker and infestor!!?? Karune said like months ago they already created a new model for that like wtf?
And can you tell us more about changelings and what the zerg spawn swarm look like and do? Does it need an upgrade?
And does anyone know if where any sc pics from wwi present other then the 8 blizz released? thx
Good questions about the animations, I'm not too sure about that. I don't recall seeing anything like that, but again I might have missed it. So my guess is that there are no animations.
First of all the changeling is awesome. Costs 35 energy and is spawned by an overseer. First unit/building of an enemy it runs in to it changes color and shape. It can turn into a marine/zeal/zergling. Then you have a unit that the enemy units completely ignore which you can use to scout their base. It cannot attack at all. If an enemy clicks on it, they can see it's not theirs because it says changeling instead of marine/zeal/zergling.
I'm not too sure what you mean by the zerg spawn swarm, do you mean the creatures that spawn when a zerg building is killed. I can tell you a bit about that. Every time a zerg building gets killed (not spores/sunkens afaik) a bunch of those critters appear. For a hatchery it's around 20 of them. They are comparable to broodlings in Broodwar, they don't really do damage and die pretty quick. So unless you have a really tiny army they won't harm you too much.
I have a bunch of high resolution images from WWI which I can upload later, if you would like to see them.
On July 02 2008 14:35 IdrA wrote: oh and something i forgot to mention, the new gas mechanic i dont see why theyre willing to put something that artificial and contrived in while having such a problem with manual macro.
that being said, i think they should try removing the gas mechanic but keeping the current setup, with most tech units being very gas-heavy and each assimilator having only 1000 gas. without being able to refresh your gasses it would force you to expand pretty aggressively, keeping the game fast paced. you could already see some of that in the wwi games. if you didnt keep up in expansions mid game you would end up with zealot heavy armies vs collosus based armies, doesnt work out too well.
Another thing about the dual gas in every base is that zerg with a naturally lower worker count feels at a bit disadvantage because now they have to put 6 workers on gas. This might be because I'm thinking too much in broodwar terms but I definitively had less drones than I had probes/scvs. That's the biggest problem I have with the dual gas in the current build.
thats true, but its also easier for zerg to expand and secure more gasses. (actually im not sure how well that transfers to sc2, but it seems like it would hold true)
if they did go that direction it would require alot of balancing, i just think it encourages a game style that they seem to want and alot of people find enjoyable (aka not turtling 3 bases and waiting for a 2-2 170 push)
Wow protoss sounds like so much fun!!!!! It also sounds nice playing terran doesn't equate to sitting in your base 20 minutes and doing nothing but macro (over-generalization obv).
prayanavita, yes! I would like to see those Hi res Screen shots. Any High res screenshots that have come from wwi and Starcraft 2 based would be greatly appreciated as I can't find Any anywhere on the net. Thanks.
On July 02 2008 14:35 IdrA wrote: oh and something i forgot to mention, the new gas mechanic i dont see why theyre willing to put something that artificial and contrived in while having such a problem with manual macro.
that being said, i think they should try removing the gas mechanic but keeping the current setup, with most tech units being very gas-heavy and each assimilator having only 1000 gas. without being able to refresh your gasses it would force you to expand pretty aggressively, keeping the game fast paced. you could already see some of that in the wwi games. if you didnt keep up in expansions mid game you would end up with zealot heavy armies vs collosus based armies, doesnt work out too well.
Hrm, I was sort of hoping SC2 would bring back the viability, sort of, of some 1 base or 1 base nat builds like SC was played around 2002-2003
Don't you think essentially forcing the players to play a super aggro expansion game will limit them quite a lot in what they can do?
I guess this is easily fixed by mapmakers tho.
EDIT: You do have a good point about it discouraging turtling..
well how often do you see low econ builds in modern bw ~_~ if players are going to be forced into a style i definitely think one that leads to constant expansions (and so vulnerability which allows constant attacking) would be favorable to the more passive macro based modern bw.
actually ya i didnt see your comment about the mapmakers, upping the amount of gas in your main vespenes would address that part of the problem at least. although i think that would lead to something more like our current situation in bw, where if you try to play off low econ the other player will just use the defensive advantage (which is exaggerated by the perfect macro) to wait it out with a slightly superior econ. it might work once in a while but as a general strategy i doubt it would be viable.
On July 02 2008 17:05 IdrA wrote: well how often do you see low econ builds in modern bw ~_~ if players are going to be forced into a style i definitely think one that leads to constant expansions (and so vulnerability which allows constant attacking) would be favorable to the more passive macro based modern bw.
actually ya i didnt see your comment about the mapmakers, upping the amount of gas in your main vespenes would address that part of the problem at least. although i think that would lead to something more like our current situation in bw, where if you try to play off low econ the other player will just use the defensive advantage (which is exaggerated by the perfect macro) to wait it out with a slightly superior econ. it might work once in a while but as a general strategy i doubt it would be viable.
I just miss old school TvZ where terrans with 1 base (their nat) would be on equal footing with a zerg with 4 expos
Btw, why are people hating the corrupters? They are cheaper than mutas, do more dps than mutas and have more health than mutas. VS zerg they cant infest stuff but on the other hand they beat mutas hands down which in itself is a huge improvement over sc1 zerg, while they should be able to go toe to toe vs the other races aa air with their very high health per cost.
But from what I heard people did not really teach the stages were air comes into play so its probably the reason.
On July 02 2008 18:42 Klockan3 wrote: Btw, why are people hating the corrupters? They are cheaper than mutas, do more dps than mutas and have more health than mutas. VS zerg they cant infest stuff but on the other hand they beat mutas hands down which in itself is a huge improvement over sc1 zerg, while they should be able to go toe to toe vs the other races aa air with their very high health per cost.
But from what I heard people did not really teach the stages were air comes into play so its probably the reason.
I personally did not get the chance to do any serious air 2 air battle so not sure how well the corrupter would stand up for itself. I actually don't have anything against it as it is the lowest tech anti air zerg has, besides the sucky spores/queen that don't really work that well against air. So I personally don't have any big problem with them. I don't find the infest ability all that useful but there's something to seeing those flying squids going at it against some warprays.
Psi-Storm. It wasn't as awesome visually last I saw (in those released screenshots). How is it now? How about the sound effects for it? How about the damage?
On July 02 2008 20:45 Aerox wrote: Psi-Storm. It wasn't as awesome visually last I saw (in those released screenshots). How is it now? How about the sound effects for it? How about the damage?
some blizz employee i was talking to claimed that it had been buffed a bit so it had the same radius as sc1 psi storm, but from the games i used it theres no way, its significantly smaller. also isnt nearly as impressive visually as the sc1 storm.
i didnt check (i didnt use it too much) but someone said that it does all of its damage instantaneously, or at least really really fast, despite the animation being as long as the old one. if thats true and it stays like that it makes it way stronger, since it negates microing out of storms and the like.
On July 02 2008 07:14 MrRammstein wrote: 1) Did anyone look closer to Range Indicator? On SC2 streamed games it looked like it's permanent for some ranged units like Siege Tank? What happens when multiple Tanks are selected? Also what could be those circles around bases, because I have no idea what they indicated???
2) Idra wrote that after microing some Stalkers and Nullifiers he understands Blizzard's point of view on MBS. If auto-mining would be cut, leaving worker icon, would micro like above even for MBS? What do you think, experienced ones ?
There is no range indicator in the build of SC2 we played for zerg at least. The ones I know of are for when you activate a phoenix it's overload ability it shows a thin blue line to show the edges of the ability for only to the controlling player and except for the Terran Radar tower who's range can be seen by the controlling as well as the hostile player which I think is a bit retarded.
But there seems to be one for Siege Tanks as well but dunno, wouldn't really matter if they had one imho.
I don't really understand what youre aiming at with that 2nd question :o.
On July 02 2008 07:33 MrRammstein wrote: Next 2 questions:
1) Did anyone try Maruders + Jackals combo, especially against Zerglings?
2) Does Thor has it's Bombardment ability?
Maurauders plus jackals would be devastating vs zerglings, however pure jackals already are. The only problem is that this is a really gas heavy build and ontop of that the zerg will have alot more then just zerglings and I can think of quite a few tier 1 or 2 units which would rape that combo to shreds.
Thor did not have the bombard ability, they just had the selfrepair ability which allows their wreckage to rebuild for a meagre 150 gas over a period of 30 seconds into a brand now thor. I don't know if there is a duration timer on the thor wreckage before it disappears or if you can destroy the wreckage, hope someone else can answer that.
On July 02 2008 03:59 hzhao wrote: well, from some hearsays, seems terran is gonna be stabilized (semi-done)? What do you think of terran, Thor really worth build at all? is there any unit not really useful in terran's arsenal?
Hehe, funny you should put it like that. If there's one useless unit in the terran army it would be the Thor. It's as huge as they get but it just can't seem to do any serious damage. Now I did not use it against any air so maybe it rocks versus air. But really, would you use a fat saggy goliath that moves at 5 mph to defend your base from air raids? In short, I used it, I laughed at it, I vowed not to build it again.
Repair is the only thing it has going for it, when it dies it leaves a some scrap that disappears after about 15 seconds (guessing here, did not time it). When you send an SCV you can revive it. I thought it was annoying to have the wreckage on the battlefield, doesn't do it for me
Reapers kinda suck as mentioned but Nyovne several times. And I just don't like the Mediviac but I'll stop there because everyone has already jumped on that bandwagon.
I heard from people that the Thor is actually a really nice unit to have a few of to spearhead an attack, they can take quite alot of punishment and that combined with their repair self ability in the middle of combat makes them quite formidable tanks ala ultralisks to draw fire while stimmed rines dish out the damage and your siege tanks can deploy safely. Their damage output is far from shitty either, it's not a collossus but its still formidable vs land as well as air.
It's damage output combined with its abilities made it feel way more like an "into the breach" unit then that its on the battlefield for its damage.
p.s. RepairSelf does *not* require an scv to rebuild the thor, all you have to do is to click the ability. (I got this info from a friend so dunno if its 100% reliable but he swears by it).
p.p.s. Thors are not slow :o, theyre as fast as a moving siegetank or about as fast as a walking marine so I don't think thats slow :o.
On July 02 2008 08:33 MrRammstein wrote: Yea 100 mins and 200 gas is nowhere to being cheap ... talking about unit's costs do you think they will change much? TBH I'm surprised that Banelings cost 25/25 not (as I read) previous 25/50 and Ghost 100/200 not 100/100... can it be to promote some units but avoid showing other as overpowered?
and about transporting I read idea (on sc2armory) of Nomads transporting vehicles? was it in build ?
edit: where abilities like Charge or Blink possible to turn off, so they aren't auto-casted?
Nomads were not transporting vehicles.
Blink is a useactivated ability so no need to "turn anything off".
Charge is autocast everytime it is up which is great and if you dont want them to charge/get lured just use the hold position command. One guy I played forgot that and I lured about 7 zeals into my waiting banelings which instantly vaporized them.
I felt that the baneling cost was fine, people with good builds, control and timely detection (aka not being a dick and just getting those observers) had a normal fighting chance against my army as is to be expected.
Ghosts along with marauders felt really expensive on the one side but they are so so strong when used properly so I'm withholding judgement on their costs. They are really really good units.
On July 02 2008 07:42 FrozenArbiter wrote: No plz :D I'd be very interested in hearing more about the medivac. Everyone who went so far, that we've heard from, said they liked it while almost everyone hated it previously so I'd be very interested to hear as much as possible about this unit.. If you don't mind
I've just used them in two games orso and they felt nice to use but I just dont like the whole concept. But objectively from the terran perspective they felt really normal and smoothely integrated into the gameplay and the starport gives you a good midway stop along the way to banshees in TvZ.
From a zerg perspective I kinda have some beef with medivacs and phase prisms as without scourges in the game there just is no effective way to deal/prevent them from doing what they are on their way to do, let alone if they are escorted. (except for obviously seeing them both comming with patrols and overlords/overseers across the map and just pulling units/your army back to deal with it but thats after the fact) Corruptors just didnt feel up to the task and Hydras/Queen just can't give chase across most terrain.
The whole deal with medics in SCBW were that a) they would have to walk up to a unit to heal while the medivacs heals are instantly from range which is really good. But then again you don't have as many medivacs as you had medics I guess. On another note is that when the battle turns sour you can just fly your medivacs away over hard terrain while in SCBW you would lose your medics and would have to rebuild them (refer again to hard way to deal with prisms and medivacs across unaccessable terrain from a zerg PoV).
Hope someone who played T alot can give a better account of this unit as it surely is an interesting one.
On July 02 2008 12:03 Nyovne wrote: I was away all night after comming home with to my appartment and had a great night out on the town with my friends, so I'll fix my neglect of you tomorrow when I wake up and reply to whats been posted here got quite a few things to say about what's been said on this page :p.
FA: Lets say Medivacs make me frustrated that there's no scourges in the game anymore which I've missed on *alot* of occasions. If there's one unit I really want back in the game, and even more so then the original medic (even with jetpacks!) it's the scourge. With distance...
Anyways till tomorrow, peace out.
Can't wait for it 1 thing Frozen Arbiter mentioned are Medivacs flying over army, distracting micro, so is there some way to drag selected those Marines and w/e without Medivacs?
one thing Frozen Arbiter mentioned are Medivacs flying over army, distracting micro, so is there some way to drag selected those Marines and w/e without Medivacs?[/QUOTE]
How is this a different problem from medics running around between your marines and which even needed to be right up against the unit they were going to heal? Moving the medivac (of which im 95% sure that it heals while it moves) has absolutely no impact at all since its a ranged heal which I think heals as well while it moves. The medivacs are pretty much healing from the back either way. Drag selecting marines with medics between them was just the same deal.
But the real point is just, you aren't drag selecting when controlling your forces, you're just using control-hotkeys to select and maneuver your army so there's no problem at all with selecting and controlling.
On July 02 2008 13:18 Invisible_Zergling wrote: Hey nyvone or anyone here that attended wwi.
Did zerg egg hatching and building animations look better then the earlier build? Before the larvae just instantly turned into egg w no animtion and then turned into zerg guy with no animation. Where these animations present?
Sam with the drones turning into buildins and the hatchery turning into lair/hive. They seemed to be missing those animations. everything was instant.
Sad about the lurker and infestor!!?? Karune said like months ago they already created a new model for that like wtf?
And can you tell us more about changelings and what the zerg spawn swarm look like and do? Does it need an upgrade?
And does anyone know if where any sc pics from wwi present other then the 8 blizz released? thx
Yes the animations were present as they offcourse would be for the final game, the ability animations all look great except for the medivac spotlight heal as someone put it so well earlier on page 13.
The changeling does not require an upgrade, it is an innate ability of the zerg overseer which is the evolved version of the zerg overlord which becomes available at lairtech and requires 50mins/50gas to evolve and the spawn changeling ability itself costs 35 energy. It kinda looks like a small larvae.
They roam the map till they spot (important: your line of sight! if the tank spots it first for example itll just instagib it with its arclite cannon) the first hostile enemy unit and then mutate into a zealot marine or zergling which I believe is (neutral) to your opponent so their units won't attack it on their own. Afterwards you can stroll in till he takes you out after noticing you running around and scouting his army composition and tech if hes slow on the update and doesn't pay any attention. They can burrow! So you can just sit it out till something passes safely into your line of sight.
The hatchling has an energy duration as well and will expire like hatchlings and SCBW broodlings after a certain amount of time, sadly I cannot attest to what amount of time that would be in the build we played since I didn't pay attention to that detail at all.
Zerg "hatchlings" or the "swarm" that lives in buildings are just little 10/20 hp buggers that deal 4 damage at a fast attack rate which move at medium speed. They look like little mad spiders with a weird head where all the legs meet and are really cute haha. Once a zerg building dies they all appear at once as a little angry mob that starts to rage at whatever hostile unit is near before dying automatically after about 5 seconds so they're more there as a treat then that they actually do something usefull.
Well I guess if you probe/zeal rush and manage to take that expo hatchery down you will lose your zeal/probes to them if you aren't careful. But all in all they seem more of a flavor and cute bonus then anything thats of any real play value. Just see them as SCBW1 broodlings that just last 5 seconds.
PS. IMPORTANT NOTE ON BURROW: It doesn't reduce the burrowed units sight range anymore like it used to do in SCBW.
2) Idra wrote that after microing some Stalkers and Nullifiers he understands Blizzard's point of view on MBS. If auto-mining would be cut, leaving worker icon, would micro like above even for MBS? What do you think, experienced ones ?
i said i understand why they thought it would compensate, but theyre still wrong. after a couple of days of playing the game good players will be able to do stuff like that as easily as theyre able to dance goons and split rines now.
mbs definitely needs to go, as does automining. i dont think the idle worker thing is that big a deal.
Automining needs to go, definately. MBS in its current form is better then it was but its still bad for the game in the sense that it kills the room players to differentiate themselves in skill. Blizzard is going overboard as expected to make the game easy and accessable to total scrubs which as expected is hurting the room to skill differentiate.
Noone cares about the idle worker thing as Idra said.
On July 02 2008 07:14 MrRammstein wrote: 1) Did anyone look closer to Range Indicator? On SC2 streamed games it looked like it's permanent for some ranged units like Siege Tank? What happens when multiple Tanks are selected? Also what could be those circles around bases, because I have no idea what they indicated???
2) Idra wrote that after microing some Stalkers and Nullifiers he understands Blizzard's point of view on MBS. If auto-mining would be cut, leaving worker icon, would micro like above even for MBS? What do you think, experienced ones ?
I don't really understand what youre aiming at with that 2nd question :o.
On July 02 2008 14:35 IdrA wrote: oh and something i forgot to mention, the new gas mechanic i dont see why theyre willing to put something that artificial and contrived in while having such a problem with manual macro.
that being said, i think they should try removing the gas mechanic but keeping the current setup, with most tech units being very gas-heavy and each assimilator having only 1000 gas. without being able to refresh your gasses it would force you to expand pretty aggressively, keeping the game fast paced. you could already see some of that in the wwi games. if you didnt keep up in expansions mid game you would end up with zealot heavy armies vs collosus based armies, doesnt work out too well.
Yeah but in a proper game I found I was stuck on 2-3 base for quite a while and by the time I really had my 3rd base going on most maps (some were easier, especially vs P as in SCBW to just take 3 straight away) my main geysers would be depleted. This totally blocked my ability to effectively access Hive Tech units. And that even is with Z who are still the easiest race to expand with from my limited experience.
More gas into the geysers is obviously an easy solution but a mechanic for it requiring attention and a limited resource doesn't sit wrong with me either. The only point again is that combined with MBS it requires 1 hotkey to bind all your geysers and just spam it whenever the ability is up so it negates the extra attention mechanic again which is just counterproductive with the whole idea behind it.
But most of all I totally agree with the fact that they better tackle the manual macro issues first.
On July 02 2008 14:59 IdrA wrote: thats true, but its also easier for zerg to expand and secure more gasses. (actually im not sure how well that transfers to sc2, but it seems like it would hold true)
if they did go that direction it would require alot of balancing, i just think it encourages a game style that they seem to want and alot of people find enjoyable (aka not turtling 3 bases and waiting for a 2-2 170 push)
I can just say about this that larvae management as is to be expected from how Zerg as race mechanics functions as a whole is still one of the major points of import while playing the race. So yeah it's a point of interest on how it will devellop and affect timings to stay effective at certain moments of timing in the early game and early-midgame transition.
On July 02 2008 15:26 VIB wrote: Can the changeling use stimpack to quickly get to the enemy base and scout?
Hehe no the changeling stays the changeling in every way, from upgrades to abilities. It does not gain anything from the form it takes. All it does is change colour and form.
If an opponent selects a changeling it will also say "changeling" for him and not marine/zealot/zergling which the little bugger is trying to pass for.
On July 02 2008 15:49 MrRammstein wrote: edit: question about units infested by Corruptors: How much health do they have? Do bigger units when infested have more?
edit2: Did Archon have any abilities like Feedback?
I cannot answer the question about the health corrupted units have but if I memmory serves me right they retain the same max/hp as the unit that got corrupted *but* they only have 33% of their max/hp. For the rest they are stationary turrets that can only use their air to air attack, and if it didnt have one before (like a corrupted overlord for example) it will not gain one and it'll just hand there. A corrupted collossus is a nice battlefield ornament but sadly totally useless.
Sadly corruption lasts a whole of 10 seconds with an upgrade at hive level to increase it to 15/20 sec or something, most certainly not more.
So in short, they disappear moments after getting corrupted already and will not impact anything after that single battle being fought.
I found it all rather underwhelming for such a cool concept and it really left me disappointed.
On July 02 2008 14:35 IdrA wrote: oh and something i forgot to mention, the new gas mechanic i dont see why theyre willing to put something that artificial and contrived in while having such a problem with manual macro.
that being said, i think they should try removing the gas mechanic but keeping the current setup, with most tech units being very gas-heavy and each assimilator having only 1000 gas. without being able to refresh your gasses it would force you to expand pretty aggressively, keeping the game fast paced. you could already see some of that in the wwi games. if you didnt keep up in expansions mid game you would end up with zealot heavy armies vs collosus based armies, doesnt work out too well.
Hrm, I was sort of hoping SC2 would bring back the viability, sort of, of some 1 base or 1 base nat builds like SC was played around 2002-2003
Don't you think essentially forcing the players to play a super aggro expansion game will limit them quite a lot in what they can do?
I guess this is easily fixed by mapmakers tho.
EDIT: You do have a good point about it discouraging turtling..
The whole thing is not a problem at all and I greatly encourage this "sub-route" blizzard has taken concerning this.
It's as you put so well, a problem fixed by mapmakers. It's one of the things that has be hopefull and enthusiastic about SC2 and that it appears to be a game thats balancable by *map* just as SCBW is.
Just changing a map can solve so many balance problems or create such a new and innovative playground for the three races we all know and love but as fast as it can solve them it can create them. I mean imagine a SCBW map with no gas in main and just at the expo, that would provide quite the twist, but if it's a good one or original one... Unlikely.
A game that's mostly mapbalanced is the way to go, it's worked *wonders* for SCBW and keeps a certain part of the community (mapmakers) interested and active in the community as a whole. That plus it keeps a game dynamic, it gives fresh battlegrounds, forces new strategies and all in all a game that is mapbalanced over a basic ground balance level as there is in starcraft broodwar just allows for a way, namely through new and innovative maps on a regular basis to breathe new life into the game to keep it going and going.
That plus the whole 1-2 gas per main or expo gives alot of possible variations in strategic routes to take. Especially from a zerg p.o.v. I found that, will I take 1 gas? 2? is a big question regarding not only your tier 1 unit choice (banelings + zerglings, or pure roach, or roach ling baneling) but also determines how much gas you take with you to tier 2 and how fast you can access your factions tier 2 goodies.
As an added fact there now is on the maps we played, with their one thousand gas per geyser, is that the faster you take your gas, let alone your 2nd gas the faster your main will deplete and if you if you haven't expanded then ur kinda screwed unless you prevented your opponent from doing the same and which offcourse affects all three races differently. On the map we played it was a real treat if you could keep your opponent boxed up in his main as long as you could to delay his expansion so he would gasstarve himself really fast and would take his expansion on two depleted geysers so he'd have issues to replenish his gas units and keep up with upgrades while you keep pressuring him.
It grants a huge way to differentiate between plays and the way they will be played, the maps we played at WWI forced a really agressive style which was prolly intended by blizzard since most of the time there was a 20 minutes timelimit on the games and it forced players to explore the new gas mechanic.
On July 02 2008 22:30 Nyovne wrote: From a zerg perspective I kinda have some beef with medivacs and phase prisms as without scourges in the game there just is no effective way to deal/prevent them from doing what they are on their way to do, let alone if they are escorted. (except for obviously seeing them both comming with patrols and overlords/overseers across the map and just pulling units/your army back to deal with it but thats after the fact) Corruptors just didnt feel up to the task and Hydras/Queen just can't give chase across most terrain.
Maybe it's just cause I'm not a zerg player, but I never thought about the massive repercussions that result from the removal of the scourge. Now that you mention it, that is a big freaking deal.
On July 02 2008 17:04 MrRammstein wrote: If Blizz lowered cost of all buildings and resources... but they rather want to avoid bigger armies aka 5minerals per trip...
No, the new pathing plus automining means that especially for scrubs, but even for progamers that you will probably even have more minerals comming in, especially early on then you do now with a 8 mineral return.
I mean when a mineral field is saturated with workers, 8 obviously gives a faster return but till then I think the 5 mins with the new pathing is at least a match for it. Maybe not when you number crunch it but it *felt* good and about the same.
There most certainly was no shortage of massing large numbers of units and seeing large scale battles like in SCBW in the good games I played that went to midgame with us both having 2 or more bases.
On July 02 2008 22:30 Nyovne wrote: From a zerg perspective I kinda have some beef with medivacs and phase prisms as without scourges in the game there just is no effective way to deal/prevent them from doing what they are on their way to do, let alone if they are escorted. (except for obviously seeing them both comming with patrols and overlords/overseers across the map and just pulling units/your army back to deal with it but thats after the fact) Corruptors just didnt feel up to the task and Hydras/Queen just can't give chase across most terrain.
Maybe it's just cause I'm not a zerg player, but I never thought about the massive repercussions that result from the removal of the scourge. Now that you mention it, that is a big freaking deal.
Yeah that's why I hope some people who really explored Protoss and Terran will show up in this thread to share their part cause I can just really speculate on my very limited experience with those two races which is even less then my zerg experience and from how it felt from an opponents perspective from another race.
Not being able to snipe phase prisms, medivacs, nomads, observers is a big big freakin deal and hurt my early-midgame transition alot where I was kinda depending alot on the power of my burrowed units and I really wished I had a change to knock out their detection but there just wasn't a proper way like in SCBW where you could snipe vessels and observers. For the rest it leaves you with dealing with consequences of opponents actions instead of being able to decisively prevent them.
that actually might be the reason for the removal of scourge, with the power of burrowed banelings and the overall improvement of burrow they might not have wanted a cheap, easy way to take out detection.
also it seems to go more with the overall idea of being able to easily attack your opponent by 'sneaky' means, with the introduction of all the terrain bypassing stuff, protoss warping in, zerg nydus canal, terran reaper/improved drops.. basically it seems like they dont want you to be able to easily stop drops and similar tactics.
On July 02 2008 18:42 Klockan3 wrote: Btw, why are people hating the corrupters? They are cheaper than mutas, do more dps than mutas and have more health than mutas. VS zerg they cant infest stuff but on the other hand they beat mutas hands down which in itself is a huge improvement over sc1 zerg, while they should be able to go toe to toe vs the other races aa air with their very high health per cost.
But from what I heard people did not really teach the stages were air comes into play so its probably the reason.
They are like corsairs but way slower. My beef with them is that you cannot harass with them, you cannot effectively use them to prevent drops or use them to snipe detectors like vessels or observers with. And it your opponent doesn't have air they are just uselessly hanging there.
In a mass air to air battle they are devastating though because once they start corrupting the tide turns against your opponent really really fast because you become stonger at the rate he becomes weaker.
I would feel that they would suit a much better role as support flyers (and corruption would be a debuff that lasts for x-seconds and while an affected unit dies it would become corrupted) and built at spire tech instead of lair and that zerg would get scourges back to fill that vacancy which would adress at least what seemed to me from my limited gameplay experiences some issues that seemed to arrise.
Plus that fact that scourges would be a WICKED way to deal with Collossi .
My general feel is just that zerg air power should consist of a unit mix to be effective the same way that a zerg ground army is composed. I mean in SCBW you have mutas backed up by devourers and scourges screaming through everything. At the moment mutas just blow huge amounts of ass and corruptors fail at everything except a mass air battle after which they suck and cant finish anything. They are a concept that would make a *perfect* support unit in my humble opinion.
An alternative what doesn't hype me at all but which might work better then this for my feeling would be to change them into little cheap (and fast!) 1 supply air skirmishers.
Still I'll settle for scourges with corruptors in a support role any day, it would just touch so many issues going atm like zergs insane weakness to offensive cliff-play against them.
Don't get me wrong I absolutely *LOVE* the concept behind corruptors, it's just implemented like shit. I love the baneling concept as well and that turned out just sick awsome great perfect in the build we played so I hope they leave that alone.
On July 02 2008 23:26 IdrA wrote: that actually might be the reason for the removal of scourge, with the power of burrowed banelings and the overall improvement of burrow they might not have wanted a cheap, easy way to take out detection.
also it seems to go more with the overall idea of being able to easily attack your opponent by 'sneaky' means, with the introduction of all the terrain bypassing stuff, protoss warping in, zerg nydus canal, terran reaper/improved drops.. basically it seems like they dont want you to be able to easily stop drops and similar tactics.
Yeah sadly I know but I just severely disagree with the sentiment that you get stuck with having to deal with the consequences of your opponents actions instead of actually being able to prevent them beforehand.
Mobile detection isn't even hard to get, cannons and radar towers provide static detection, observers are still as easily accessable like they were and nomads require just a starport with addon so are aquirable at the same rate like dropships used to be in SCBW.
I really think their should be a proper way to deal with it and scourges are well suited to it. At the moment you hardly even have to protect your detectors cause if they just hang back a bit they are untouchable which just seems a bit wrong to me as zerg burrow at least appears to be a really important piece of gameplay for them.
Again it's having to deal with consequences instead of playing a high control strategy that allows risky investments and a way to prevent your opponent from doing things instead of being forced to be stuck to deal with the consequences.
On July 02 2008 23:25 MrRammstein wrote: Do you still feel up to writing this blog ;DD?
Haha once I finish all this ranting and this thread quiets down a bit I'll compile it and write a big ass SC2 zerg blog with some P and T mesmerizing.
^^;;
Glad to see you're in this thread still btw Greg/Idra, you have well thought insights and offcourse a great point of view from which you regard this whole little adventure .
On July 02 2008 15:49 MrRammstein wrote: edit2: Did Archon have any abilities like Feedback?
Oh btw I didn't build archons I just fought against them so I can't help you on that one, I hope someone else can.
Archons seemed to suck alot though and I'd put my money on Collossi any day of the week. They just seem to be nice to create midcombat when your HT run out of energy, especially with the archons Power Overwhelming buff they receive for the first 20 seconds after morphing (it increases their damage by X, dunno how much).
Hmm, this just struck me: if there's gonna be an equivalent of 3 Hatch Muta (or any other Muta opening), then Mutant Larvas may prove to be VERY useful as a means of not only saving Larvas and continuing the Drone production, but also making the opponent unaware of what you're actually opting for (additional Hydra tech as in BW for confusion purposes). ;]
On July 02 2008 17:04 MrRammstein wrote: If Blizz lowered cost of all buildings and resources... but they rather want to avoid bigger armies aka 5minerals per trip...
No, the new pathing plus automining means that especially for scrubs, but even for progamers that you will probably even have more minerals comming in, especially early on then you do now with a 8 mineral return.
I mean when a mineral field is saturated with workers, 8 obviously gives a faster return but till then I think the 5 mins with the new pathing is at least a match for it. Maybe not when you number crunch it but it *felt* good and about the same.
There most certainly was no shortage of massing large numbers of units and seeing large scale battles like in SCBW in the good games I played that went to midgame with us both having 2 or more bases.
Talking about resources I'm going to suck more info from you ...namely upgrades sorry for going for such details x)
Were costs on Stimpacks, Infrantry Weapons and Armor, Zerg units' upgrades / etc around the same as in BW? Do you remember Combat Shield, Blink, Charge, morphing Spire to Greater Spire? Did Hydras still have speed, range and Ultras speed, armor upgrades? etc etc
On July 02 2008 20:45 Aerox wrote: Psi-Storm. It wasn't as awesome visually last I saw (in those released screenshots). How is it now? How about the sound effects for it? How about the damage?
It's area of affect is smaller then in SCBW and last I heard about it (so not sure at all) it had a little reduction to total damage as well (which I think might be one damage tick less since I thought it lasted a bit shorter but thats just a gutfeel).
It looks like a little cloud of white crackling lightning so it's very identifiable as being psistorm hehe. I think it had a different sound effect as in SCBW, a bit more static and buzzing going on but again I'm not sure. I used Psistorm myself in about... 2 games and saw it used against me in 2 games as well.
There is damage instantly on the spell taking effect and the damage felt like it came alot quicker then it did in SCBW. It kinda hit my drones while I was trying to move them around when some guy stormdropped me but even with the new pathing and smoothe controlling the second it hit my drones they all turned red in my unitgroupscreen so it really came instantly and seemed nasty. On my zerglings and banelings as well in some centre skirmishes we had.
Did it feel weak? Which is offcourse the whole motivation behind your question, and from my limited experience the answer is: definately not. Especially with the new smart casting system you can queue and stormblanket infinately easier then in SCBW so the adjustments to PsiStorm were more then justified from my perspective. That plus with the new pathing/unitclutter which is infinately improved units bunch of *alot* more so you still hit alot of units if not as many as before with that same storm. (Except for large units like siege tanks which are hard to hit more then one with a storm I guess, but vs Tier 1 units, or small units it still rapes)
On July 02 2008 23:48 maybenexttime wrote: Hmm, this just struck me: if there's gonna be an equivalent of 3 Hatch Muta (or any other Muta opening), then Mutant Larvas may prove to be VERY useful as a means of not only saving Larvas and continuing the Drone production, but also making the opponent unaware of what you're actually opting for (additional Hydra tech as in BW for confusion purposes). ;]
No, mutas suck in any form or way in the SC2 build we played are were totally reduntant in any practical form of play.
Mutant larvae are another awsome idea but them taking in supply and that there is a cooldown on the mutate larvae while there is already a spawnlarvae time at zerg construction buildings seems wrong to me as well. Especially because you are not getting an extra larvae, you just change an existing one. It doesn't create extra production capacity for you and for this benefit you are already paying additional gas and minerals.
Mutate larvae's cooldown and that mutated larvae take up supply both need to go, asap, in my opinion to work this concept out well. It at least work make it infinately more workable, practical and actually usable in a game as a viable tech.
And just as important, a reason to actually get that Queen every game. Maybe not early game, but at least that it has a function in every game, which at the moment it didn't have for me. Applying these 2 changes to mutate larvae which I just suggest would have me create one every single game cause it's just a crazy cool mechanic with obvious benefits.
Any mechanic worth integrating or basing strats around while taking control and resource management let alone should figure heavily into your larvae managemanent which is the quintessantial centre of any zerg players play gets my heartfelt support and has me cheer for it as loud as I can.
*IF* it works and is actually usable, so you've got your work cut out for you blizz. Don't feel shy to contact me at any time for suggestions! Haha >
On July 02 2008 17:04 MrRammstein wrote: If Blizz lowered cost of all buildings and resources... but they rather want to avoid bigger armies aka 5minerals per trip...
No, the new pathing plus automining means that especially for scrubs, but even for progamers that you will probably even have more minerals comming in, especially early on then you do now with a 8 mineral return.
I mean when a mineral field is saturated with workers, 8 obviously gives a faster return but till then I think the 5 mins with the new pathing is at least a match for it. Maybe not when you number crunch it but it *felt* good and about the same.
There most certainly was no shortage of massing large numbers of units and seeing large scale battles like in SCBW in the good games I played that went to midgame with us both having 2 or more bases.
Talking about resources I'm going to suck more info from you ...namely upgrades sorry for going for such details x)
Were costs on Stimpacks, Infrantry Weapons and Armor, Zerg units' upgrades / etc around the same as in BW? Do you remember Combat Shield, Blink, Charge, morphing Spire to Greater Spire? Did Hydras still have speed, range and Ultras speed, armor upgrades? etc etc
btw can you tell how big is Ultras' AoE?
Im not gonna sum up every upgrade for you but Ill just name a few to give an impression, a) unit attack and armor upgrades are identical to those in SCBW. b) combat shield is 250/250, stim is 100/100 still, charge and blink im not sure but 150/150-200/200 im pretty sure. A spire costs 200/300 which is too expensive since it only unlocks the mutalisk and should be brought back to 150/150 in its current state or at least reduced back to its old cost of 200/200 and seeing scourge put back at lair level and corruptors being enabled by spiretech and functioning as a support unit or even a caster if theyd get a use ability or two.
Hydras like marines and stalkers do not have a range upgrade, they come with the range they have after upgrading in SCBW allthough stalkers range seems definately shorter then graded goons in SCBW.
Ultras just have armor grade, no speed, and subsequently they are pretty much slow lumbering tanks.
I cannot tell how big the ultras aoe is but at least as bit as the unit's front which is quite substantial considering they are HUGE ass mofos. I just don't know how "deep" the aoe goes on the frontal axis, I just have a feeling about how "wide" the effect is.
On July 03 2008 00:14 maybenexttime wrote: I was talking about the final game (where mutas are useful), assuming mutant larva stays, which I hope it does.
Yeah then it might, but it's hard (and stupid) atm to actually try to get as many mutated larvae as you can and even though the mechanic is really cool it definately needs some work to be actually usable. Atm I can just see them usefull to save some up to hatch some ultras to save time . Or if they are able to mutate into even evolved forms like guardians or lurkers.
edit2: lol nvm wrong read this thing and realized at Archons being 350/10 ><
If thats so, that list is probably wrong and outdated. I am 90% sure Archons were 300 shield, 20 hp in the build we played.
kkk Can you recall if units' costs are good there?
Dunno not gonna check them all, if they are different I'm pretty sure it won't be that far off and they're 100% sure to change before the game comes as, as are small hp modifacations so I cant really be arsed to check them as its quite trivial.
On July 01 2008 05:01 Nyovne wrote: p.s. Tall grass and destroyable terrain (as neutral buildings are right now), but especially the tall grass are really really cool. The gras just makes for PERFECT ambush places :D.
I know this was said ages ago; but I think this comic expresses the situation.
On July 03 2008 00:57 IdrA wrote: ya archons are no longer worth making the way you did in sc1 pvz, morphing templars before even casting storms just to get them.
Yeah especially cause they take full dmg from banelings and are up front t_t. You just takem down with the zealots in one go.
On July 01 2008 05:01 Nyovne wrote: p.s. Tall grass and destroyable terrain (as neutral buildings are right now), but especially the tall grass are really really cool. The gras just makes for PERFECT ambush places :D.
I know this was said ages ago; but I think this comic expresses the situation.
Dunno not gonna check them all, if they are different I'm pretty sure it won't be that far off and they're 100% sure to change before the game comes as, as are small hp modifacations so I cant really be arsed to check them as its quite trivial.
NP man I know... even though any bit of info matters >
On July 03 2008 00:57 IdrA wrote: ya archons are no longer worth making the way you did in sc1 pvz, morphing templars before even casting storms just to get them.
Yeah especially cause they take full dmg from banelings and are up front t_t. You just takem down with the zealots in one go.
Guess this is an example how much Blizzard doesn't won't to implement any exceptions like anti-graving bigger units for smaller amount of time xP
but if Banelings can hit Protoss shields and can't Terran buildings than something is wrong IMO.
In situation with hard time to get more expansions they will be pain in the ass for P...
On July 02 2008 23:59 Nyovne wrote: Mutate larvae's cooldown and that mutated larvae take up supply both need to go, asap, in my opinion to work this concept out well. It at least work make it infinately more workable, practical and actually usable in a game as a viable tech.
If there was no cooldown and it didnt took suply then zerg would make tons of this mutant larvas at bases and could instantly respond to any situation with instant units perfectly suited to defend.
And in early game if their scouting is denied they could just make this mutants and instanlty respond later..
I think the purpose of this larvas to have few of them to respond faster if you need some units immediately, like if enemy comes with banshees in your base and you quickly morph them to corrupters
On July 02 2008 23:59 Nyovne wrote: Mutate larvae's cooldown and that mutated larvae take up supply both need to go, asap, in my opinion to work this concept out well. It at least work make it infinately more workable, practical and actually usable in a game as a viable tech.
If there was no cooldown and it didnt took suply then zerg would make tons of this mutant larvas at bases and could instantly respond to any situation with instant units perfectly suited to defend.
And in early game if their scouting is denied they could just make this mutants and instanlty respond later..
I think the purpose of this larvas to have few of them to respond faster if you need some units immediately, like if enemy comes with banshees in your base and you quickly morph them to corrupters
or (without any danger) at least Overlords to speed up macro...?
On July 03 2008 01:18 MrRammstein wrote: but if Banelings can hit Protoss shields and can't Terran buildings than something is wrong IMO.
In situation with hard time to get more expansions they will be pain in the ass for P...
Why that, buildings just take less damage. Protoss buildings just have shields as part of their toughness.
Shields have always taken full damage from any sources, the reason why vultures are so effective vs them in SCBW. The fact that baneling splash hits every protoss shield for full damage in its radius has no reason to be an exception to the rule.
On July 02 2008 23:48 maybenexttime wrote: Hmm, this just struck me: if there's gonna be an equivalent of 3 Hatch Muta (or any other Muta opening), then Mutant Larvas may prove to be VERY useful as a means of not only saving Larvas and continuing the Drone production, but also making the opponent unaware of what you're actually opting for (additional Hydra tech as in BW for confusion purposes). ;]
i tried a 3 hat muta build once and it kinda sucked, the 400 gas spire (or w/e it was) slows it down a bunch. unless they clean up the muta micro mechanic and mess with the economics a bit i dont think it will be viable.
On July 02 2008 23:59 Nyovne wrote: Mutate larvae's cooldown and that mutated larvae take up supply both need to go, asap, in my opinion to work this concept out well. It at least work make it infinately more workable, practical and actually usable in a game as a viable tech.
If there was no cooldown and it didnt took suply then zerg would make tons of this mutant larvas at bases and could instantly respond to any situation with instant units perfectly suited to defend.
And in early game if their scouting is denied they could just make this mutants and instanlty respond later..
I think the purpose of this larvas to have few of them to respond faster if you need some units immediately, like if enemy comes with banshees in your base and you quickly morph them to corrupters
You are aware that it requires a larvae to make a mutated larvae plus the mutation time takes a whole 30 seconds and as such it doesn't help at all.
Any time you make mutant larvae they arent mutating into something else. For every mutated larvae you have something is not doing something what it could and its just taking up supply. Let alone the fact that the queen cannot be at every hatchery all the time and even Deep Tunnel doesn't allow her to do that effectively.
Roughly put (movability etc aside) mutated larvae save nothing but morphing time later in the game in exchange for additional cash and a wasted larvae early on. You're still paying for your units afterall.
On July 02 2008 23:59 Nyovne wrote: Mutate larvae's cooldown and that mutated larvae take up supply both need to go, asap, in my opinion to work this concept out well. It at least work make it infinately more workable, practical and actually usable in a game as a viable tech.
If there was no cooldown and it didnt took suply then zerg would make tons of this mutant larvas at bases and could instantly respond to any situation with instant units perfectly suited to defend.
And in early game if their scouting is denied they could just make this mutants and instanlty respond later..
I think the purpose of this larvas to have few of them to respond faster if you need some units immediately, like if enemy comes with banshees in your base and you quickly morph them to corrupters
or (without any danger) at least Overlords to speed up macro...?
Why if you can spawn an overlord normally in 15 seconds why do it in 30 sec mutate time + 2 sec spawning :O.
On July 03 2008 01:18 MrRammstein wrote: but if Banelings can hit Protoss shields and can't Terran buildings than something is wrong IMO.
In situation with hard time to get more expansions they will be pain in the ass for P...
Why that, buildings just take less damage. Protoss buildings just have shields as part of their toughness.
Shields have always taken full damage from any sources, the reason why vultures are so effective vs them in SCBW. The fact that baneling splash hits every protoss shield for full damage in its radius has no reason to be an exception to the rule.
Yea but I read shields are supposed to be mirrors of armor type whatever they surround - Light just as Zealots are light armored, and Armored as any buildings or some Stalkers, with all bonuses included...?
On July 02 2008 23:59 Nyovne wrote: Mutate larvae's cooldown and that mutated larvae take up supply both need to go, asap, in my opinion to work this concept out well. It at least work make it infinately more workable, practical and actually usable in a game as a viable tech.
If there was no cooldown and it didnt took suply then zerg would make tons of this mutant larvas at bases and could instantly respond to any situation with instant units perfectly suited to defend.
And in early game if their scouting is denied they could just make this mutants and instanlty respond later..
I think the purpose of this larvas to have few of them to respond faster if you need some units immediately, like if enemy comes with banshees in your base and you quickly morph them to corrupters
or (without any danger) at least Overlords to speed up macro...?
Why if you can spawn an overlord normally in 15 seconds why do it in 30 sec mutate time + 2 sec spawning plus the added mineral and gas cost for the mutation :o.
Well if that takes 15seconds now my comment never happened :D I meant morphing Larvae before Ovie is needed and let it wait until there is need for Ovies to morph them in 2seconds but if this is so short than nvm x)
Btw what happens with supply when Morphalisk is morphed? Does unit morphed take 1 more supply?
And about Queen how long is cooldown on Deep Tunel? Does it require any/much energy?
edit: about Overseers' range of sight: It slowly spreads when Overseer is one place but what happens when it moves? Does it quickly shrinks or just just disappears?
Yea those screenshots, they are the screenshots as they we're given out by Blizzard to the press. There's a couple of other pics of most terran/zerg units and buildings. Anyone interested in that?
Why if you can spawn an overlord normally in 15 seconds why do it in 30 sec mutate time + 2 sec spawning plus the added mineral and gas cost for the mutation :o.
I did not notice the extra cost for mutating from mutated larvae. How much is it approximately? Spawning a mutated larvae is for free though, or like 1 energy or something similar. As far as I recall I could build a zergling form a mutated larvae for the same cost as a normal larvae.
Yea those screenshots, they are the screenshots as they we're given out by Blizzard to the press. There's a couple of other pics of most terran/zerg units and buildings. Anyone interested in that?
Give us whatever you have > and Thank You in advance of course
On July 03 2008 01:18 MrRammstein wrote: but if Banelings can hit Protoss shields and can't Terran buildings than something is wrong IMO.
In situation with hard time to get more expansions they will be pain in the ass for P...
Why that, buildings just take less damage. Protoss buildings just have shields as part of their toughness.
Shields have always taken full damage from any sources, the reason why vultures are so effective vs them in SCBW. The fact that baneling splash hits every protoss shield for full damage in its radius has no reason to be an exception to the rule.
Yea but I read shields are supposed to be mirrors of armor type whatever they surround - Light just as Zealots are light armored, and Armored as any buildings or some Stalkers, with all bonuses included...?
Where did you read that? Cause shields went down pretty damn fast for my feel, at least faster then the hp itself. But obviously since I didnt really check that might just be my expectations from SCBW warping what im perceiving so if you got a source plz shoot ;o.
On July 02 2008 23:59 Nyovne wrote: Mutate larvae's cooldown and that mutated larvae take up supply both need to go, asap, in my opinion to work this concept out well. It at least work make it infinately more workable, practical and actually usable in a game as a viable tech.
If there was no cooldown and it didnt took suply then zerg would make tons of this mutant larvas at bases and could instantly respond to any situation with instant units perfectly suited to defend.
And in early game if their scouting is denied they could just make this mutants and instanlty respond later..
I think the purpose of this larvas to have few of them to respond faster if you need some units immediately, like if enemy comes with banshees in your base and you quickly morph them to corrupters
or (without any danger) at least Overlords to speed up macro...?
Why if you can spawn an overlord normally in 15 seconds why do it in 30 sec mutate time + 2 sec spawning plus the added mineral and gas cost for the mutation :o.
Well if that takes 15seconds now my comment never happened :D I meant morphing Larvae before Ovie is needed and let it wait until there is need for Ovies to morph them in 2seconds but if this is so short than nvm x)
Btw what happens with supply when Morphalisk is morphed? Does unit morphed take 1 more supply?
And about Queen how long is cooldown on Deep Tunel? Does it require any/much energy?
edit: about Overseers' range of sight: It slowly spreads when Overseer is one place but what happens when it moves? Does it quickly shrinks or just just disappears?
When Mutated larvae morph they just add supply to their own to match the unit they change in. Nothing special going on there as can be expected.
Deep Tunnel has a 15 second cooldown. It does not cost energy.
The overseers range just reverts back to normal, aka smaller. But it kinda doubles when it hangs still for 30 sec orso.
Give us whatever you have > and Thank You in advance of course
Here you go, I put it up on Rapidshare. 50 mb worth of high res screenshots, pictures of most terran/zerg units/buildings and the Starcraft II logo at high resolution.
Why if you can spawn an overlord normally in 15 seconds why do it in 30 sec mutate time + 2 sec spawning plus the added mineral and gas cost for the mutation :o.
I did not notice the extra cost for mutating from mutated larvae. How much is it approximately? Spawning a mutated larvae is for free though, or like 1 energy or something similar. As far as I recall I could build a zergling form a mutated larvae for the same cost as a normal larvae.
edit: all sources indeed agree with you that it costs nothing but token energy and increased time (30 seconds).
I have no idea how I came on the idea then that it requires mins / gas to morph one.
My bad, terribly mistaken on this matter even though I could have sworn it.
Well then I feel the ability shouldn't have a cooldown and just cost minerals/gas and not take up supply ^^.
On July 03 2008 01:18 MrRammstein wrote: but if Banelings can hit Protoss shields and can't Terran buildings than something is wrong IMO.
In situation with hard time to get more expansions they will be pain in the ass for P...
Why that, buildings just take less damage. Protoss buildings just have shields as part of their toughness.
Shields have always taken full damage from any sources, the reason why vultures are so effective vs them in SCBW. The fact that baneling splash hits every protoss shield for full damage in its radius has no reason to be an exception to the rule.
Yea but I read shields are supposed to be mirrors of armor type whatever they surround - Light just as Zealots are light armored, and Armored as any buildings or some Stalkers, with all bonuses included...?
Where did you read that? Cause shields went down pretty damn fast for my feel, at least faster then the hp itself. But obviously since I didnt really check that might just be my expectations from SCBW warping what im perceiving so if you got a source plz shoot ;o.
I think it was Q&A batch but not sure. I'm going to dig in earlier ones anyways so as soon as I will find I will post it
On July 03 2008 01:18 MrRammstein wrote: but if Banelings can hit Protoss shields and can't Terran buildings than something is wrong IMO.
In situation with hard time to get more expansions they will be pain in the ass for P...
Why that, buildings just take less damage. Protoss buildings just have shields as part of their toughness.
Shields have always taken full damage from any sources, the reason why vultures are so effective vs them in SCBW. The fact that baneling splash hits every protoss shield for full damage in its radius has no reason to be an exception to the rule.
Yea but I read shields are supposed to be mirrors of armor type whatever they surround - Light just as Zealots are light armored, and Armored as any buildings or some Stalkers, with all bonuses included...?
Where did you read that? Cause shields went down pretty damn fast for my feel, at least faster then the hp itself. But obviously since I didnt really check that might just be my expectations from SCBW warping what im perceiving so if you got a source plz shoot ;o.
I think it was Q&A batch but not sure. I'm going to dig in earlier ones anyways so as soon as I will find I will post it
Thanks for all this info, Nyovne (and Naruto/Idra)!!!
Anyways, Nyovne, since you seem to find the Corrupter very displeasing - would you think it a good idea if Corrupter's gave some sort of spore like the devourers do? So every time a corrupter hits a unit, it gains a spore, so when it dies the amount of time it is corrupted is directly correlated to the number of spores it had? I remember you were unhappy that the corrupters had to have the killing blow in order to corrupt for a mere 10 seconds (or more with the upgrade) iirc. Although it wouldn't really solve the problem of stopping drops or being able to harrass - it would make them a much stronger support unit.
On July 03 2008 01:18 MrRammstein wrote: but if Banelings can hit Protoss shields and can't Terran buildings than something is wrong IMO.
In situation with hard time to get more expansions they will be pain in the ass for P...
Why that, buildings just take less damage. Protoss buildings just have shields as part of their toughness.
Shields have always taken full damage from any sources, the reason why vultures are so effective vs them in SCBW. The fact that baneling splash hits every protoss shield for full damage in its radius has no reason to be an exception to the rule.
Yea but I read shields are supposed to be mirrors of armor type whatever they surround - Light just as Zealots are light armored, and Armored as any buildings or some Stalkers, with all bonuses included...?
Where did you read that? Cause shields went down pretty damn fast for my feel, at least faster then the hp itself. But obviously since I didnt really check that might just be my expectations from SCBW warping what im perceiving so if you got a source plz shoot ;o.
I think it was Q&A batch but not sure. I'm going to dig in earlier ones anyways so as soon as I will find I will post it
Thank you Prayanavita downloading now
No problem, enjoy!
Oh My God dude when I saw those screenshots earlier I already thought they look great BUT NOW I can watch them in resolution high enough they don't fit as whole on my screen and I have 22" monitor xD
2 things
1 I actually started liking Baneling Nest, have totally nothin NOTHING against it anymore x) 2 I wonder if to put some Terran unit as new background, like Jackal or Medivac; btw wtf some tard asked on art panel why Siege Tank looks as it looks it simply can't look better in Siege and I have feeling looks even better in Tank mode than I last checked
a)How is the Zerg Queen? I have a feeling that its either a "gimicky unit" or a must build every game "hero unit". Whats your thoughts on the Queen and should it be a single player only unit or does it gel nicely with the zerg gameplay?
b) Burrow mechanic, I am assuming that burrow is smarter so that if you select a mixed of burrowed and non-burrowed units, they will do _____?
c) Did you get to play with the display options at all? I was curious if when a different screen resolution was set if it gave the player an advantage of seeing more of the battlefield.
d) In your opinion, which race needs the most work from a design standpoint and why? I have a strong feeling that Terran will need the most work as it seems that none of their units seem to "gel" together, or at least their factory and starport units. It seems like they only got the Barracks units good (except the reaper which needs to be a firebat imo, and the jackel should be a vulture again)
On July 03 2008 11:03 Tiamat wrote: a)How is the Zerg Queen? I have a feeling that its either a "gimicky unit" or a must build every game "hero unit". Whats your thoughts on the Queen and should it be a single player only unit or does it gel nicely with the zerg gameplay?
b) Burrow mechanic, I am assuming that burrow is smarter so that if you select a mixed of burrowed and non-burrowed units, they will do _____?
c) Did you get to play with the display options at all? I was curious if when a different screen resolution was set if it gave the player an advantage of seeing more of the battlefield.
d) In your opinion, which race needs the most work from a design standpoint and why? I have a strong feeling that Terran will need the most work as it seems that none of their units seem to "gel" together, or at least their factory and starport units. It seems like they only got the Barracks units good (except the reaper which needs to be a firebat imo, and the jackel should be a vulture again)
thanks again!
Queen doesn't have to be build every game, I wasn't too crazy about her so I hardly build the queen. I was a bit scared that she would be a hero kindof units, but from what I've seen she's not too bad. The queen definitely has its uses but she is not the hero unit you saw in earlier movies (The one where the queen killed 15 marines by herself)
No clue what happens when you have a mixed army of burrowed and not burrowed units. Nyovne will know, he was the master of sneak with his little baneling bombs.
Computers at WWI only allowed 2 options, "Play computer, play multiplayer" so no options at all. In the presslounge they had a different version of Starcraft II though, one where you could actually pick the map and set the graphic options. I did not do a comparision of different resolutions, but I'm 99% sure that Blizzard would not implement it like that. Only thing I can imagine is that 4:3 and 16:10 will show the battlefield in different proportions. But there were only widescreen monitors at WWI so I did not get to experiment with that. Funny thing to notice is that if you put all setting on high the game would not run at all on the computers in the press lounge.
Nyovne I found this thing about shields and stuff in batch 25
"How will damage against Protoss Shields be calculated with the new damage bonus system?
Protoss shields will take up the characteristics of their normal armor type. For example, if a Protoss Zealot with light armor gets shot by a Terran Ghost with plus light armor damage, the Zealots shields will also take that light armor bonus damage. On the same note, if a Protoss Colossus were to be hit by a Protoss Stalker with bonus damage towards armored unit, the shields would also take that additional damage. "
On July 03 2008 03:07 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: has anyone really used antigrav much? Is it as effective as cyclone was in wc3?
Haven't used it at all sadly, just forcefields from nullifiers. Hope someone else can elaborate on this for you, maybe Idra.
i dont know i only used it to mess around in games that were already over. my guess is its gonna end up like sc1 hts where both spells are good, but forcefield/storm is so much better that antigrav/hallucination rarely get used.
On July 03 2008 03:07 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: has anyone really used antigrav much? Is it as effective as cyclone was in wc3?
Haven't used it at all sadly, just forcefields from nullifiers. Hope someone else can elaborate on this for you, maybe Idra.
i dont know i only used it to mess around in games that were already over. my guess is its gonna end up like sc1 hts where both spells are good, but forcefield/storm is so much better that antigrav/hallucination rarely get used.
Could Antigrav possibly (with some tweaks?) replace both old Maelstorm and Stasis Field? (on smaller scale ofc)
Did anyone play as Terran enough to mess around with the tech lab/reactor core stuff? I've been wondering if you build a reactor core on lets say a barracks, can you only ever marines from that barracks until you lift up and build a tech lab for it, and which point you don't have the reactor core any more? I guess I'm asking if add-ons are like SC1, where you need 1 machine-shop per factory to build tanks from it instead of just 1 machine-shop total to build tanks from all factories.
So basically, I'm asking if building a reactor core delegates a production building (barracks/factory/starport) to only ever building standard units (marines/jackals/vikings/medivacs) from those buildings (and also some units that don't need a tech lab to be made I guess, like thors I believe still need armory)?
Does the zerg buildings take dmg when they're out of creep?
Like what happens if you poo creep with the overlord, plant sunkens there then move away the overlord? Creep expires, sunken stays there as if nothing happened?
On July 05 2008 03:06 Ideas wrote: Did anyone play as Terran enough to mess around with the tech lab/reactor core stuff? I've been wondering if you build a reactor core on lets say a barracks, can you only ever marines from that barracks until you lift up and build a tech lab for it, and which point you don't have the reactor core any more? I guess I'm asking if add-ons are like SC1, where you need 1 machine-shop per factory to build tanks from it instead of just 1 machine-shop total to build tanks from all factories.
So basically, I'm asking if building a reactor core delegates a production building (barracks/factory/starport) to only ever building standard units (marines/jackals/vikings/medivacs) from those buildings (and also some units that don't need a tech lab to be made I guess, like thors I believe still need armory)?
First of all reactors can be build on not only barracks they can be build on all terran production buildings with the exception of command centers. So barracks/factories and starports can all have a reactor. But back to your original question:
Yes you need a techlab to build units that require a techlab. I believe in the barracks both the marine and reaper can be build with a reactors. Ghosts and marauders require tech lab, although I mostly played zerg so i might be mistaken here. So basicly it is the same as in starcarft 1.
Buils vary though so they might change it although I like the current mechanic better than the one you are describing in your post.
On July 05 2008 03:34 VIB wrote: Does the zerg buildings take dmg when they're out of creep?
Like what happens if you poo creep with the overlord, plant sunkens there then move away the overlord? Creep expires, sunken stays there as if nothing happened?
You move overlord, no more creep, sunkens will get hurt
On July 03 2008 07:57 caution.slip wrote: wait corrupters having to have the killing blow makes perfect sense, hell yeah more micro opportunity to deny your BCs or whatever
corrupters look as though they deal a lot of damage anyways
Kill denying should stay in DotA. Sniping an irratiated unit so it doesn't damage others around it is reasonable, but killing your own units just to prevent your opponents from doing so is completely unintuitive. The same applies to exploiting this behaviour as a zerg player. Use your mutalisks no nearly kill enemy flying units and finish them with, say, a single corruptor. You shouldn't gain an advantage by not killing an enemy unit. This may add more micro, yes, but not the kind of micro I want to see.
I'm suggesting that the corruptor creates a temporary status effect which stays on the target for a short while (one corruptor firing continuously at an unit would create a permanent effect, which would disappear very quickly after the corruptor stops firing), and death during that period results in corruption, no matter who deals the killing blow. This allows for more freedom in battles with other air targeting units without losing corrupted units you "should" have gotten.
Another idea that could work, maybe even combined with the first one, is counting the damage that corruptors deal to each enemy. When an enemy is corrupted, it receives hit points/damage/time (or any combination of these) based on the damage dealt by corruptors (repairing and/or time would reduce this counter). This removes the possibility of infesting everything with a single corruptor and I think makes a bit more sense. More corruptors infest things more effectively without any silly kill denying or last hitting.
On July 03 2008 07:57 caution.slip wrote: wait corrupters having to have the killing blow makes perfect sense, hell yeah more micro opportunity to deny your BCs or whatever
corrupters look as though they deal a lot of damage anyways
Kill denying should stay in DotA. Sniping an irratiated unit so it doesn't damage others around it is reasonable, but killing your own units just to prevent your opponents from doing so is completely unintuitive. The same applies to exploiting this behaviour as a zerg player. Use your mutalisks no nearly kill enemy flying units and finish them with, say, a single corruptor. You shouldn't gain an advantage by not killing an enemy unit. This may add more micro, yes, but not the kind of micro I want to see.
I'm suggesting that the corruptor creates a temporary status effect which stays on the target for a short while (one corruptor firing continuously at an unit would create a permanent effect, which would disappear very quickly after the corruptor stops firing), and death during that period results in corruption, no matter who deals the killing blow. This allows for more freedom in battles with other air targeting units without losing corrupted units you "should" have gotten.
Another idea that could work, maybe even combined with the first one, is counting the damage that corruptors deal to each enemy. When an enemy is corrupted, it receives hit points/damage/time (or any combination of these) based on the damage dealt by corruptors (repairing and/or time would reduce this counter). This removes the possibility of infesting everything with a single corruptor and I think makes a bit more sense. More corruptors infest things more effectively without any silly kill denying or last hitting.
I perfectly agree, both your ideas are much better than the current one. It's so silly that I'm sure they'll end up changing it anyway.
On July 03 2008 03:07 Ra.Xor.2 wrote: has anyone really used antigrav much? Is it as effective as cyclone was in wc3?
Haven't used it at all sadly, just forcefields from nullifiers. Hope someone else can elaborate on this for you, maybe Idra.
i dont know i only used it to mess around in games that were already over. my guess is its gonna end up like sc1 hts where both spells are good, but forcefield/storm is so much better that antigrav/hallucination rarely get used.
Could Antigrav possibly (with some tweaks?) replace both old Maelstorm and Stasis Field? (on smaller scale ofc)
well, if one of the tweaks is making it an area of effect thing then sure, but thats a pretty big change. i think the purpose they have in mind is negating big, key units in the middle of battles. take your opponents tank/thor backbone out of action while you clean up the bio support, or whatever. wouldnt really serve the same purpose if you make it aoe.
but ya of course any spell that immobilizes enemy units can be molded into a maelstrom/stasis type spell.
I'm only halfway through the thread, but what awesome info! A few things I'm not surprised by:
Ghosts sound very effective. Maybe too good? MBS not bad. Great. Dark Swarm is weak without consume. Not cool. Banelings were fun and made a few games. Cool.
Stuff I was surprised by: Hallucination almost deciding a game. Fun. Psi Storm seemed effective. I hope this pans out against serious competition... I just keep getting the feeling that the Colossus is going to replace the HT. The increased gas costs on everything. Just an experiment or what??
Other comments: More gas options sound interesting. After reading some things on http://www.starcraftwire.net I predict EMP will get moved off the ghost or toned down.
On July 06 2008 02:28 Blacklizard wrote: I'm only halfway through the thread, but what awesome info! A few things I'm not surprised by:
Ghosts sound very effective. Maybe too good? MBS not bad. Great. Dark Swarm is weak without consume. Not cool. Banelings were fun and made a few games. Cool.
Stuff I was surprised by: Hallucination almost deciding a game. Fun. Psi Storm seemed effective. I hope this pans out against serious competition... I just keep getting the feeling that the Colossus is going to replace the HT. The increased gas costs on everything. Just an experiment or what??
Other comments: More gas options sound interesting. After reading some things on http://www.starcraftwire.net I predict EMP will get moved off the ghost or toned down.
Don't trust any "valueing" of any unit from any article on that site that isn't hard numerical data, that's all I have to say about it.
If you would just read their Terran and Zerg reviews, just oh my god. I played the game and I can tell you my hair just stood on end reading it with shivers crawling up my spine. I have rarely seen anyone so incapable of valueing a game at its worth.
Pretty much any and every unit evaluation there is so off the mark its just mindnumbing.
For the rest:
Ghosts are *very* expensive and not even close to being overpowered from my point of view and experience.
MBS is not as bad as expected but still terrible for the game. Not being quite as bad as expected doesn't even come close to every proper player valueing it as a good thing. It's gotta go or needs to be seriously toned down.
Automining I dont even have a single good word to say about instead of cruisecontrol macro, especially combined with MBS.
Darkswarm without consume kinda hurts the spell so much but there hasn't been any way to tell if darkswarm will be as pivotal and 100% required to stand a chance as zerg in some lategame matchups. There can't be a deciding vote on this one yet without extensive high level/endgame playtesting. Remember, it's tier2 now, not tier 3 as it used to be. And there aren't any unit snipe spells anymore like irradiate with the exception of well.. "snipe" from the ghost which is far from an acceptable substitute for irradiate to snipe out the casters.
Banelings aren't just fun, they are awsome little balls of rolling rape. They are maybe the most influential new unit in the whole game concerning at least earlygame-play and very influential throughout the whole game and maybe even in every single matchup zerg can play.
---
Hallucination is really nice, and on strong side of spells and might even be a bit too good with their current duration (3 minutes t___t) and energycost.
Psitorm was effective and will most certainly not be replaced by the collossus for the simple reason as before with the templar/rvr choice in the original starcraft that templars are cheaper, bring a different kind of bang for their buck, bring more utility to the table and most important of all their tech is straight in line with the zealot charge upgrade and stalker blink upgrade. Plus collossi are very very expensive and take a long ass time to build (75 sec). So unless you can afford dual tech it's a very tough tradeoff and I expect to see more nullifier/templar support builds then collossi builds. All at least seen from the perspective of the latest build we played at WWI.
Oh little p.s. there is nothing wrong with EMP on the ghost. It's a vulnerable expensive unit, it should bring something to the table which it's currently doing. I have absolutely no beef with this unit at all.
The new gas costs and macro-techniques are probably to experiment with the impact of variable and certain resource management on gameflow.
On July 05 2008 00:00 MrRammstein wrote: Nyovne I found this thing about shields and stuff in batch 25
"How will damage against Protoss Shields be calculated with the new damage bonus system?
Protoss shields will take up the characteristics of their normal armor type. For example, if a Protoss Zealot with light armor gets shot by a Terran Ghost with plus light armor damage, the Zealots shields will also take that light armor bonus damage. On the same note, if a Protoss Colossus were to be hit by a Protoss Stalker with bonus damage towards armored unit, the shields would also take that additional damage. "
Well, better ask them tho...
Thanks! No idea if that is still going but I guess so. My prejudices blinded me from actually remembering and checking this out.
Reactor/Techlab techniques are btw a kickass mechanic for terran imho. I loved it and it made for some good choices what to do with what and it brought some flow into your buildorder management with the new income/resource return and still allowed you to effectively spend all your cash.
If you burrow a bunch of units in one spot, and you unburrow them, do they sort themselves out better? Or do you have to wait 5 secs before they stop moving like in SCBW?
On July 06 2008 05:21 xenero wrote: If you burrow a bunch of units in one spot, and you unburrow them, do they sort themselves out better? Or do you have to wait 5 secs before they stop moving like in SCBW?
There is no unit "stacking" or "worker drilling" anymore in SC2. You cannot burrow units ontop of eachother and they are sorted out the second they spawn. The new pathing/clutter rules are insanely effective and make micro (if needed at all) almost an unbelievingly amount easier then in SC1.
A programer or good player will control his units at this level anyway like in SCBW but for players with less control their units will turn out to be a whole lot more efficient then before due to this.
On July 06 2008 05:17 Nyovne wrote: Oh little p.s. there is nothing wrong with EMP on the ghost. It's a vulnerable expensive unit, it should bring something to the table which it's currently doing. I have absolutely no beef with this unit at all.
The new gas costs and macro-techniques are probably to experiment with the impact of variable and certain resource management on gameflow.
I sort of miss lockdown
I guess the ghost would be too stacked with that ability too tho..
On July 06 2008 05:21 xenero wrote: If you burrow a bunch of units in one spot, and you unburrow them, do they sort themselves out better? Or do you have to wait 5 secs before they stop moving like in SCBW?
There is no unit "stacking" or "worker drilling" anymore in SC2. You cannot burrow units ontop of eachother and they are sorted out the second they spawn. The new pathing/clutter rules are insanely effective and make micro (if needed at all) almost an unbelievingly amount easier then in SC1.
A programer or good player will control his units at this level anyway like in SCBW but for players with less control their units will turn out to be a whole lot more efficient then before due to this.
On July 06 2008 05:17 Nyovne wrote: Oh little p.s. there is nothing wrong with EMP on the ghost. It's a vulnerable expensive unit, it should bring something to the table which it's currently doing. I have absolutely no beef with this unit at all.
The new gas costs and macro-techniques are probably to experiment with the impact of variable and certain resource management on gameflow.
I sort of miss lockdown
I guess the ghost would be too stacked with that ability too tho..
On July 06 2008 05:21 xenero wrote: If you burrow a bunch of units in one spot, and you unburrow them, do they sort themselves out better? Or do you have to wait 5 secs before they stop moving like in SCBW?
There is no unit "stacking" or "worker drilling" anymore in SC2. You cannot burrow units ontop of eachother and they are sorted out the second they spawn. The new pathing/clutter rules are insanely effective and make micro (if needed at all) almost an unbelievingly amount easier then in SC1.
A programer or good player will control his units at this level anyway like in SCBW but for players with less control their units will turn out to be a whole lot more efficient then before due to this.
p.s. burrow = teh s3xx0r.
Is this good or bad?
With earlier introduction of ghosts and smart casting the lockdown ability would have been just great in my opinion and I'd have love to have seen it. Sadly on the other side of that medal is the fact that blizzard has introduced a couple of really expensive and really influential mechanical units like the thor and the Collussus which are tier 3 or 3.5 and would be longdistance countered by a tier 2 unit's ability which is smart castable if you get my drift hehe >.
And good or bad? Neither or even good I think, it'll open up more play and less frustration for less skilled players (example chocking/unit pathing from golliaths and goons at ramps and certain mapobstacles) and it won't influence skilled players let alone progamers at all since they'll be ontop of that control anyway since it's a "nice" AI but far from what you can still get for bang for your buck if you manually micro that stuff in battle.
Oh btw, EMP + Snipe on ghost is just really really powerfull hehe.
If you can invest in a couple of those puppies (2-5), I'm sure they will be crazy influencial on gameplay/harass if you can control/place/conserve them well.
Ghosts with jetpacks would be the sickest thing ever to snipe/harass/nuke lol!
Btw people should be careful to call the ghost a harass unit. It's a very valuable unit that gets relatively more valuable with the time you keep it alive (more charged energy so more abilities to spend and overall the more time alive the more often its abilities are used).
For its cost I'd rather have a suicidal raiding like cracklings/speed vults for an "exess resource" (minerals compared to gas) then to risk gas heavy caster units like the ghost in SC2 (or to compare a science vessel in SCBW).
The dreaded storm or reaver drop obviously kills any argument I just made for gas heavy harass units but speed shuttles greatly increase their survivability (actually they 100.0% depend on it) and there are undescribable differences in spending pattern and cost/unit gameflow per race as for example Protoss vs Terran as is still there in SC2.
Nukes are seriously rape. They are totally midgame accessible and as such ideal to bust any early to midgame turtling guy who overteched *if* you are using a ghost incorporating build which mostly will be a followup with tanks following fast after starting out with a 2 rax marine marauder built, pref while taking an expo if you can pressure will. (most likely vs toss)
Plus IIRC there is no more "nuclear launch detected" general warning for everyone t________t.
But I might be wrong on the last thing.
Nukes at least "felt" really accessible in the few terran games I played.
I think there should be a warning (and most probably is, for the enemy), but it should arrive faster so that you cannot just save all workers in every expo - you should be forced to choose, judge what is the most likely target and go save it immediately.
On July 06 2008 08:50 MrRammstein wrote: Do they arrive faster? and really do 800dmg oO?
They don't arrive faster, I'd expected them to though. But they do more then 500 at least since they take out supply depots in one go without the 1 sec of burn damage like in SCBW and last that was said about them was that they did 800 dmg so Im expecting them to.
(they really do more then 500 now I think of it since they take out BCs and Collossi in 1 nuke as well.)
On July 06 2008 08:27 Nyovne wrote: Nukes are seriously rape. They are totally midgame accessible and as such ideal to bust any early to midgame turtling guy who overteched *if* you are using a ghost incorporating build which mostly will be a followup with tanks following fast after starting out with a 2 rax marine marauder built, pref while taking an expo if you can pressure will. (most likely vs toss)
Plus IIRC there is no more "nuclear launch detected" general warning for everyone t________t.
But I might be wrong on the last thing.
Nukes at least "felt" really accessible in the few terran games I played.
No warning?That's seriously overpowered until a metagame develops and a pattern emerges. I've seen a video where ultralisks survive through a nuke, so how many hitpoints does an ultralisk have if a nuke does 800 damage?
On July 06 2008 08:27 Nyovne wrote: Nukes are seriously rape. They are totally midgame accessible and as such ideal to bust any early to midgame turtling guy who overteched *if* you are using a ghost incorporating build which mostly will be a followup with tanks following fast after starting out with a 2 rax marine marauder built, pref while taking an expo if you can pressure will. (most likely vs toss)
Plus IIRC there is no more "nuclear launch detected" general warning for everyone t________t.
But I might be wrong on the last thing.
Nukes at least "felt" really accessible in the few terran games I played.
No warning?That's seriously overpowered until a metagame develops and a pattern emerges. I've seen a video where ultralisks survive through a nuke, so how many hitpoints does an ultralisk have if a nuke does 800 damage?
600, with armor. Hmmmpff so no 800, good point there sir.
If we know with how much HP an ultra survives we know ^^.
On July 06 2008 12:45 Ideas wrote: What were the fastest units in the game? Are the new air units (phoenix/viking) as fast as the old ones (wraiths/corsairs)?
Speed lings I guess. And dunno at the airspeed, really can't remember a feel about it just built two vikings (1 game) and 30 mutas (2games) orso during the two days of WWI.
I just remember the corruptor being too slow for my tastes for being the main air to air fighter for zerg.
It's official - the medivac is soooo misplaced! I reallllly don't see why that situation in the last game couldn't have been a medic+marine drop. Now we're just having a regular dropshop and a dropship with heal. or am I missing something?
On July 06 2008 20:04 GinNtoniC wrote: It's official - the medivac is soooo misplaced! I reallllly don't see why that situation in the last game couldn't have been a medic+marine drop. Now we're just having a regular dropshop and a dropship with heal. or am I missing something?
No the normal dropship is now the medivac dropship, there aren't two different ones .
On July 06 2008 08:27 Nyovne wrote: Nukes are seriously rape. They are totally midgame accessible and as such ideal to bust any early to midgame turtling guy who overteched *if* you are using a ghost incorporating build which mostly will be a followup with tanks following fast after starting out with a 2 rax marine marauder built, pref while taking an expo if you can pressure will. (most likely vs toss)
Plus IIRC there is no more "nuclear launch detected" general warning for everyone t________t.
But I might be wrong on the last thing.
Nukes at least "felt" really accessible in the few terran games I played.
No warning?That's seriously overpowered until a metagame develops and a pattern emerges. I've seen a video where ultralisks survive through a nuke, so how many hitpoints does an ultralisk have if a nuke does 800 damage?
600, with armor. Hmmmpff so no 800, good point there sir.
If we know with how much HP an ultra survives we know ^^.
The video is from an older build where the nuke does 500 damage.
Most people are saying that the Medivac is misplaced because it doesn't feel right. But as a unit, it provides a lategame boost for the terran by allowing more effective base raids. Especially with marauder backup. I feel that the Medivac will get more love once people see how ownage it is. Also, it has maneuverability.
On July 07 2008 04:51 xenero wrote: Most people are saying that the Medivac is misplaced because it doesn't feel right. But as a unit, it provides a lategame boost for the terran by allowing more effective base raids. Especially with marauder backup. I feel that the Medivac will get more love once people see how ownage it is. Also, it has maneuverability.
Wait, how is this different then a marine medic drop in SCBW?
I think you would be able to fit more units in it, and I would guess when the marines (marauders too?) die, you still have the dropship. Edit: I mean how there's no medics to take up slots in the dropship.
On July 07 2008 05:41 xenero wrote: I think you would be able to fit more units in it, and I would guess when the marines (marauders too?) die, you still have the dropship. Edit: I mean how there's no medics to take up slots in the dropship.
Yeah thats prolly 1-2 more marines, but now you bring marauders instead which I believe take 2 slots. And now your dropship has to remain there during combat instead of in SCBW where it could ferry more units into a base of fly off and go do something else.
Plus when your marines die in SCBW you still have the dropship too hehe. I don't see this as an improvement at all, just a change which doesn't really improve on anything.
On July 07 2008 05:41 xenero wrote: I think you would be able to fit more units in it, and I would guess when the marines (marauders too?) die, you still have the dropship. Edit: I mean how there's no medics to take up slots in the dropship.
Yeah thats prolly 1-2 more marines, but now you bring marauders instead which I believe take 2 slots. And now your dropship has to remain there during combat instead of in SCBW where it could ferry more units into a base of fly off and go do something else.
Plus when your marines die in SCBW you still have the dropship too hehe. I don't see this as an improvement at all, just a change which doesn't really improve on anything.
Considering that terrans infantry lineup is much more powerfull if you do not count the medic, if you then get the now much improved infantry army + healing it sure is a huge buff over the old terran bio army.
On July 07 2008 05:41 xenero wrote: I think you would be able to fit more units in it, and I would guess when the marines (marauders too?) die, you still have the dropship. Edit: I mean how there's no medics to take up slots in the dropship.
Yeah thats prolly 1-2 more marines, but now you bring marauders instead which I believe take 2 slots. And now your dropship has to remain there during combat instead of in SCBW where it could ferry more units into a base of fly off and go do something else.
Plus when your marines die in SCBW you still have the dropship too hehe. I don't see this as an improvement at all, just a change which doesn't really improve on anything.
Considering that terrans infantry lineup is much more powerfull if you do not count the medic, if you then get the now much improved infantry army + healing it sure is a huge buff over the old terran bio army.
Basically this gives terran bio a lategame.
Swarmguardians, disease (plague), ultras, collossi, psistorm, lurkers, siegetanks, thors, banshees, hivetech graded roaches, battlecruisers, jackals, chargegraded zeals and hivegraded banelings still absolutely rape bio for the same reasons as bio was weak in SCBW though so I wonder how this is going to turn out. AOE still destroys marines at an absolitely appalling rate (as in 2 siege tanks shoot once and 13 marines instantly vaporize into red mist).
So I wonder how this is going to turn out like I said hehe.
edit: shit forgot about the most important one 1) Is Banelings' team color problem in ZvZ solved? How do they look like?
2) OK I'm not sure if this was answered already: Burrowed and non-burrowed units are treated separately (like old cloaked and non cloaked) to avoid burrow as default order for them all (I mean in BW all units selected have to be burrowed 1st to order them to unburrow)?
3) Looking on the units' statistics on some site and abilities they have I noticed there wasn't Nomad's AoE Defensive Matrix anymore... but Nyovne do you think it could tweak infantry based army? Or may it be good, being forced to switch tech at the some point of the game? (or just treat them as disposable units more ;P)
4) Obvious but just to be sure: Under any circumstances Medivac doesn't heal multiple targets (like one outside of it and one inside)? Even if not, could it be way to go to tweak it, assuming Medics won't come back to the game?
On July 07 2008 10:14 MrRammstein wrote: edit: shit forgot about the most important one 1) Is Banelings' team color problem in ZvZ solved? How do they look like?
2) OK I'm not sure if this was answered already: Burrowed and non-burrowed units are treated separately (like old cloaked and non cloaked) to avoid burrow as default order for them all (I mean in BW all units selected have to be burrowed 1st to order them to unburrow)?
3) Looking on the units' statistics on some site and abilities they have I noticed there wasn't Nomad's AoE Defensive Matrix anymore... but Nyovne do you think it could tweak infantry based army? Or may it be good, being forced to switch tech at the some point of the game? (or just treat them as disposable units more ;P)
4) Obvious but just to be sure: Under any circumstances Medivac doesn't heal multiple targets (like one outside of it and one inside)? Even if not, could it be way to go to tweak it, assuming Medics won't come back to the game?
1) I actually have no idea at all but in the few ZvZs ive played I experienced no problem at all, at least nothing that cought my notice as being a problem that is.
2) No there is no "tab between different unit condition" option in SC2. All units still have to be burrowed before they unburrow so if 10 units are burrowed and you add another 10 to the controlgroup and press burrow the remaining 10 will burrow while the previous 10 will remain burrowed. I personally prefer this way for the reason I just stated, it makes changing and adding to control groups just so much easier and you can still just control-click or double click a burrowed unit and you will get all burrowed units of that type on screen under your control.
Especially the last is alot easier because units are now identifiable by type while burrowed and alot easier to select while burrowed like in SCBW where you kinda had to drag-select them. I liked how it worked now and I used burrow in each and every game I played with zerg, but offcourse this is a personal preference and doesn't mean squat compared to how other people will experience it.
3) I have no idea how AOE-matrix would play but it would most definately be a tuned down matrix compared to SCBW where it is really strong in my opinion. Terran infantry felt buff enough as they were, especially with the highhp marauder and ghost, the 25% hp upgrade for marines etc.
I currently don't see any real problems with terran infantry that weren't already there in SCBW (aka vulnerability vs pretty much any AOE effect ingame that vaporizes just scores of them into red mist).
To add to that I believe terrans, especially their infantry, gameplay- as well as lore-wise should be expendable. To be more exact, terrans to my feel are highcost high hitting support units which are far from expendable (marauders, tanks, thors, battlecruisers, sciencevessels in SCBW, nomads in SC2 etc) that are surrounded by expendable meatshields (vultures, marines, jackals, reapers, etc).
Terran has in SCBW always felt to me like there are highyield units you need to protect that form the core of your army, your "terran ball" so to speak of while they are surrounded and protected by cheap (marines, vults in SCBW, marines and jackals in SC2) units that are easily replenishable and you are doing fine as terran as long as that expensive unit "core" of your "ball" stays intact to keep your push pushing so to speak while rallying more meat into the grinder before and around it.
I mean terran isn't zerg where you just swarm in with expendable high amounts of units. Terran also lacks the speed and mobility of the zerg and requires to be grouped and in formation to deliver its punch. But there definately is an expendable ring of meat around your bang and SC2 felt like they captured that feeling pretty well for terran which pleased me alot.
4) I cannot say this with absolute certainty but I don't think medivacs heal units inside them but they might very well do that. I hope someone can help us out on this and clarify it for us. Sorry can't really help you here. Outside they just heal one unit at a time but I think a bit faster then a medic used to but again, cannot say this with any real certainty.
One thing I do really feel as a thing to make a point of is that Terran has two real casters (ghost and Nomad allthough the nomad needs some work imho on its abilities) and im not counting the medivac just cause it can heal, protoss has three real casters (nullifier, high templar and the Mothership). But the zerg is kinda stuck on 1.5, the infestors are the only real caster unit for the zerg with the Queen being a 0.25% caster and the overseer having energy and spawn changeling are another 0.25% caster.
Toss seems fine on this matter, especially on the power of their spells. Ghosts seems great great units as well, support, small scale combat, harassment as well as caster wise (EMP, snipe, cloak, nuke + great base damage) but nomads need some identity and a hand, I find their turrets and spidermines atm far from great or inspirational and I hope to see some work on that. That targetting drone I saw somewhere (attaches to target, target takes 50% more damage for a duration of x seconds) seemed like a great 3rd ability for them to start out with without additional upgrades (along with them being a detector unit) required. But their two researchable spells really need a good looking at imho.
Queens are cool units, but they really need to keep that "heal" or regenerate or w/e its called stays the way it was and that it keeps working on units! For the rest swarminfestation is nice vs drops but nothing overly awsome, the Queen is just a good unit but I wish it had a little more personality to it as being the one that spawns/builds the zerg defensive structures. I still feel disappointed that they removed that along with scvs building thors, it felt refreshing, cool and fitting both of it. (well at least to my tastes hehe) Infestors "infestation" and "disease" were powerfull spells but dark swarm felt really weak without consume and might be OP if consume were in the game (we dont know yet if zerg needs something like swarm to be able to stand up against other races, terran especially, in the endgame phase). Plus I felt that infestors at a 100/200 cost are overpriced and should at least be brought back to defiler cost of 50/150, they simply cost way too much for what they bring to the fight. They are totally not on par with ghosts at the moment for the same cost.
All in all casters and their abilities need a bit of a looking at still imho, protoss *seemed* fine on this account but I hardly played them so I hope someone can comfirm my paper suspicions or deny them. Zerg and Terran casters really need a little workover and I feel that Overseers should get another real spell (support spell, nothing offensive!) to bring the zerg up to par and that Infestors need a proper role and that the Queens gets a bit more personality (but just a little, I really liked it, but again personal preference).
I love how 90% of the units in starcraft are still basic fire and move units and are easy and intuitive to use. Just how it should be. But those few casters there are (2-3 per race) should really have a better role and identity, especially like the nullifier and high templar already have for the Protoss (mothership less so, still feels a bit like a confused unit).
Hmmm, maybe Infestor's Dark Swarm could be replaced with some other interesting spell, while Dark Swarm would be moved to the Overseer with a Vulture mine-like limit? That'd be a bit weird but at the same time unique and interesting methinks. :D
edit: Maybe this could be a channeling spell by the Overseer. ^__^
edit: The "new" Infester's spell could be a buffed version of Ensnare, which would, besides the regular effect (probably altered somehow) it had in BW, be castable on the ground to prevent units from fleeing.
On July 07 2008 22:53 Klockan3 wrote: Overseer should get ensnare, fits the flying blob concept.
I have to agree with him here. I really think this is a good idea. Perhaps it should make units almost stick to the ground as well, sort of like maelstorm.
Wasn't ensnare sort of moved to the Marauder? It would kind of overlap too much if Zerg had ensnare again (although I would love to see it come back, and the sticking to ground ability sounds like a cool idea).
I would like to see the Overseer become a real spellcaster on par with other flying spellcasters. I don't really like the changeling spell (seems like it'd only be useful when used on someone who doesn't even know what changelings are), but I think Overseer needs 1 or 2 more "real" spells. I also think a good idea, in order to make all 3 races' flying spellcaster more distinct would be to have only overseers able to drop creep(maybe creep would need to be buffed to compensate for fewer things able to drop it). This way the Zerg "flying spellcaster" unit would actually be used more. In BW the Vessel had perm. detection, while the Arbitor had perm. cloak, and the Queen had 2 spells that cost too much psi energy.
Maybe not dropping creep, but some sort of passive ability on the overseer (preferably something different from cloaking or detecting to set it apart from other units) on top of some other spells I think is what the Zerg need (and scourge too).
Or it (Ensnare) could be a creep based ability of the Queen!:DD Imagine somebody attemting a 'Sunken' break and suddenly getting stuck in the creep while several new Spine Crawlers close in towards the wall. ^^
On July 09 2008 14:31 MrRammstein wrote: Could Overlords / Overseers cast Slime(?) to infest minerals?
From the sounds of it, that ability was in an earlier build and wasn't present in the WWI build (haven't heard anything about it being in that build), although I have no idea.
On July 08 2008 04:38 lololol wrote: Btw, does desease damage all types of units? If yes, doesn't it render high hp and air units pretty much obsolete?
Pretty much the same as plague in Starcraft 1, don't forget that the Infestor is a very slow units and you can't move them in overlords either so I think 95% damage isn't too bad as it is. So if you micro your air units poorly and allow them to get diseased then yea, they are pretty useless without health. All boils down to how well you control your units I suppose.
On July 10 2008 02:50 iounas wrote: How faster is protoss shield regen? They dont regen when in battle?
On July 02 2008 07:54 prayanavita wrote: For me it is a subjective problem I have with the Medivac. I don't like the idea of a floating ship dumping HP on the units below. Maybe it is because when I get hurt I would rather be bandaged by a cute nurse than by nanopods flying at me from the skies. Perhaps I have to get use to the fact that Blizzard is trying to make Bio a choice for the whole game (instead of mostly early/mid game) by making you tech up to Starport before you can finish your army. Plus I did not like the fact that it only has 7 slots for units.
Would it help thinking that the 8th slot is for the cute medic in the drop ship? ^_^
On July 02 2008 07:54 prayanavita wrote: For me it is a subjective problem I have with the Medivac. I don't like the idea of a floating ship dumping HP on the units below. Maybe it is because when I get hurt I would rather be bandaged by a cute nurse than by nanopods flying at me from the skies. Perhaps I have to get use to the fact that Blizzard is trying to make Bio a choice for the whole game (instead of mostly early/mid game) by making you tech up to Starport before you can finish your army. Plus I did not like the fact that it only has 7 slots for units.
Would it help thinking that the 8th slot is for the cute medic in the drop ship? ^_^
But if I can't see her then what good is she....
I'd rather just have the dropship be the dropship and have an option to combine the dropship with a medic in a Archon kind of way. Because of the current way it is setup dropping metal is not really viable anymore because the Medivac does not heal metal. So I would rather have a merge button iif Blizzard is so intend on keeping their Medivac, giving me the choice to not make them.
The medivac has 7 slots!? I thought I saw that but assumed it couldn't be right.
There goes another argument in favour of the medivac (the "but now you can drop EIGHT marines, so even though a medivac/marine drop is identical to a marine/medic drop, it's stronger")..
How do they deal with things like tanks then, can medivacs only carry 1?
Nyovne, do units still drop at the same rate out of dropships/shuttles? That was one thing that hurt mnm drops compared to say, reaver or tank drops. If it was faster it would mean that Ghost dropping could be much more effective.
Also, is there still a moment in which a unit can't attack after dropping like they patched in SC to keep progamers from basically firing with reavers while moving with the shuttle at high speed?
On July 02 2008 07:54 prayanavita wrote: For me it is a subjective problem I have with the Medivac. I don't like the idea of a floating ship dumping HP on the units below. Maybe it is because when I get hurt I would rather be bandaged by a cute nurse than by nanopods flying at me from the skies. Perhaps I have to get use to the fact that Blizzard is trying to make Bio a choice for the whole game (instead of mostly early/mid game) by making you tech up to Starport before you can finish your army. Plus I did not like the fact that it only has 7 slots for units.
Would it help thinking that the 8th slot is for the cute medic in the drop ship? ^_^
Im sure phreak said in his audio blog that Medships had 10 slots with tanks taking up 5.
I could be way off, but I don't think Blizzard RTS's ever have an "in combat" and "out of combat" state. Shields will always regenerate at the same rate, no? Like in SC, War3, etc.?
Disease questions... my mind just fully embraced what I've read about it here xP : 1) Is it channeled? 2) Does is spread as much as possible or is there some limit how many units/buildings can be diseased? 3) Can it spread from building to building, building to unit, etc?
edit: C&C3 Scrin Mothership's attack 'spreads' from unit/building to unit/building until when already affected ones explode... affecting another that will explode, etc, etc. Can Disease be compared to this, except affected targets don't explode but lose 95% HP?
On July 08 2008 04:38 lololol wrote: Btw, does desease damage all types of units? If yes, doesn't it render high hp and air units pretty much obsolete?
Pretty much the same as plague in Starcraft 1, don't forget that the Infestor is a very slow units and you can't move them in overlords either so I think 95% damage isn't too bad as it is. So if you micro your air units poorly and allow them to get diseased then yea, they are pretty useless without health. All boils down to how well you control your units I suppose.
Well, if they want to have all units viable as they promised, a spreading and faster damaging plague(coupled with easier interface to manage casters) ain't gonna help make BCs, thors and the like viable vs zerg. A single infestor is way cheaper than any high tier unit, so even if the player spreads his units, the infestors will still be cost effective and in combat spreading your units is often not the best option.
On July 12 2008 09:37 SoleSteeler wrote: I could be way off, but I don't think Blizzard RTS's ever have an "in combat" and "out of combat" state. Shields will always regenerate at the same rate, no? Like in SC, War3, etc.?
IIRC at the SC2 announcement Blizz said that shields regen out of combat, but faster. In wc3 there are out of combat regen items; nagas also had out of combat regen, but they cut them from the game.
EPT
. From minerals returned per trip to unit dmg/cost/buildtime/place in techtree or removed alltogether.
