Stork has been doing a lot of builds on his stream vZ where he opens DT corsair and then depending on whether the dark templar survives or not, makes another 1 or 2 which he consequently morphes into a Dark Archon.
The curious thing is he always morphs only one. I guess, for now, for him, at least, that's the threshold and I'm not seeing him researching all the upgrades / skills.
He's always focusing on keeping the Dark Archon alive as long as possible but I'm not sure he develops all abilities. He mainly uses Maelstroms against Muta flocks and hydras. It's really cool when utilised well and he constantly manages to cast 3~5 spells. I hope he'll continue to experiment with builds like this.
What's always intrigued me about mind control is that it could possibly nullify Terran's late game advantage in PvT.
I mean a maxed out terran beats a maxed out protoss. So if the terran manages to get a split map; maybe you could gamble and mind control an SCV. Rush some tanks of your own, fortify your positions and surprise the T with 300+ pop vs his 200 pop.
Or maybe he'll kill you before that ever happens but it'd be cool!
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
It still seems like it would have been a lot easier to build a robo and obs, then he'd have as much detection as he wants. But maybe I just don't understand the metagame of that era.
I think the main utility in PvT is that of destroying Sci Vessels (or MCing them if possible) to take out detection, and attempt to pull off that insane wave of Psi Storms against tanks that was mentioned earlier in this thread.
To be fair terrans have a ~55% winrate vs protoss on most maps, just look at the TLPD map winrates: (FS + CB being the main maps/most played on)
That's what I was mainly referring too, and I think the 10 point gap is mainly due to Protoss not being able to break the Terran siege line. And when you can't break the siege line in time, the Terran has map control and it can be quite difficult to get back into the game at that point.
I mean, for feedback it seems like a good idea, then your arbiters don't get EMP'd. Doesn't require upgrades either, just merge two dark templars you had from earlier in the game.
In that JangBi vs SoO game the DA was built in response to the muta harassment that was already going on, which is something that many protoss players have done for many years, so nothing new there.
On June 18 2017 05:27 arb wrote: I think it might have some merit PvT, just 1 though, since feedback is instant long ass range it seems okay.
PvZ it definitely has its uses late game, ive watched a lot of streams of split map situations where I know zerg is gonna lose cause of mind control they stay in and well.. lose.
PvP like someone said maybe a niche for carriers?
PvP you can open w/ 2 dts and go into DA + mindcontrol (w/ mass goon support) if you can confirm that your opponent is doing a goon/reaver timing. You can mind control a shuttle w/ 2 reavs or worst case scenario 1 reav.
Doesn't Flash and Last basically skew the stats in favor of terrans? and I think that movie, horang2, sky, and stork like completely skew the stats for protoss in worst way possible. We have really good tosses like rain, snow, mini, and bisu who all have 60% win rate
The only underused spell by protoss players is hallucination imo.
Feedback on Vessels doesn't really work, as at high level most EMP's will be pre-emptive after Terran scans the protoss army and Protoss doesn't know a vessel is coming. Also doesn't help against anti-recall EMPs.
dunno what's going on. didn't read everything except the beginning post. You can use a dark archon for ONLY 1st 200 max battle, but after that i wouldn't. Use speed shuttle more often.
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
It still seems like it would have been a lot easier to build a robo and obs, then he'd have as much detection as he wants. But maybe I just don't understand the metagame of that era.
It was a joke build tbh, not used frequently, and it wasn't really any good.
I once rushed on FS typical camping style terran with protoss bulldog attack, but instead of zealots i got 2 DA with mc in shuttle. Luckily, he had 2 sieged tanks on his main highground, so i MC'ed them and the rest was melted with dragons supported by those tanks. I was laughing for 10 minutes after that, but I doubt it can be used against someone good, cause he would have double your limit by the time you got energy on DAs. Definitely got more wins with 1 base 1 stargate carrier rush.
On June 17 2017 11:16 UndeadProtoss wrote: In late game PvT, the existence of a Science Vessel is very detrimental to the larger Protoss army, mainly because of the ability to EMP Arbiters and render the cloaking field null. HOWEVER, with a Dark Archon and a high energy Science Vessel, a Protoss player could reasonably kill one outright and effectively give his Arbiters more energy, assuming they would have been EMP-ed otherwise.
I don't think this would be the case, In which scenario does the protoss player have both enough apm for feedbacking the vessel and not dodging with the arbiter?
On June 17 2017 11:16 UndeadProtoss wrote: In late game PvT, the existence of a Science Vessel is very detrimental to the larger Protoss army, mainly because of the ability to EMP Arbiters and render the cloaking field null. HOWEVER, with a Dark Archon and a high energy Science Vessel, a Protoss player could reasonably kill one outright and effectively give his Arbiters more energy, assuming they would have been EMP-ed otherwise.
I don't think this would be the case, In which scenario does the protoss player have both enough apm for feedbacking the vessel and not dodging with the arbiter?
Feedback casts pretty much instantly, so it's definitely faster. I'd say that scenario is more useful for protecting HTs from EMP than arbiters though.
feedback isn't only faster than emp, it has longer range as well. If a vessel attempts to emp a DA and the DA responds in time, then the vessel is getting feedbacked, before throwing emp even, every time. the problem is actually being in the screen and controlling the DA when the vessel is coming in for the emp.
And as mentioned before, it's normally quite dangerous to feedback offensively. However If a vessel strays 3 matrixes ahead of the tank line though, it's doable, and I think it's quite common to see vessels in front of the army to scout for cloaked attacks.
I don't think that adding DAs is gonna vastly increase p's winning chance, but I totally think that if it's one of those 4-5 control groups of protoss ground, 5 arbiters, limit, 5k/3k 4 mining bases vs 3-3 terran, then swapping 2 zealots for 1 DA is probably '+ev', and definitely not something that loses you the game. you don't need any upgrades, it's just 1 250/200 investment that gives you a decent chance at blocking a couple emps, meaning you're likely to have more stasis and storm during the next engagement.
On June 19 2017 04:45 Liquid`Drone wrote: feedback isn't only faster than emp, it has longer range as well. If a vessel attempts to emp a DA and the DA responds in time, then the vessel is getting feedbacked, before throwing emp even, every time. the problem is actually being in the screen and controlling the DA when the vessel is coming in for the emp.
And as mentioned before, it's normally quite dangerous to feedback offensively. However If a vessel strays 3 matrixes ahead of the tank line though, it's doable, and I think it's quite common to see vessels in front of the army to scout for cloaked attacks.
I don't think that adding DAs is gonna vastly increase p's winning chance, but I totally think that if it's one of those 4-5 control groups of protoss ground, 5 arbiters, limit, 5k/3k 4 mining bases vs 3-3 terran, then swapping 2 zealots for 1 DA is probably '+ev', and definitely not something that loses you the game. you don't need any upgrades, it's just 1 250/200 investment that gives you a decent chance at blocking a couple emps, meaning you're likely to have more stasis and storm during the next engagement.
This is of course true if we consider the perfect player or SCAI or something of that nature, but the question for human players is IMO "Is using Feedback a better use of your time/APM than the alternative?" in which case I think it the answer would be "yes" very rarely and "no" the majority of the time when considering the (often discredited) amount of things a Protoss needs to do during an engagement, in rapid succession (Stasis + Shuttle + Storm + Split Zealots + Split Dragoons + Macro).
I think it's almost always going to be a good idea to cast feedback in that scenario. Preventing an EMP right before a large engagement is huge, and takes less than a second to do. The problem with dark archons is the high resource and time investment for a situational unit which you may not have an opportunity to use, especially since you can make an arbiter instead.