So I want to open this up by saying I am very much a bit of a noob as far as competitive Brood War goes, but I wanted to make this thread because I think it's a fun/interesting theory to entertain.
It basically goes like this: Perhaps the reason that Terran is slightly favored in win-rates vs Protoss, and more so with Zerg, is because Protoss players do not make use of all three spell-caster units effectively.
In PvT, the Arbiter is obviously the most heavily used spell-caster unit, with the High Templar being used on occasion to defend expansions or tag along with the larger army of Zealots/Dragoons. But one unit is exceedingly rare in any Protoss matchup, the Dark Archon.
In late game PvT, the existence of a Science Vessel is very detrimental to the larger Protoss army, mainly because of the ability to EMP Arbiters and render the cloaking field null. HOWEVER, with a Dark Archon and a high energy Science Vessel, a Protoss player could reasonably kill one outright and effectively give his Arbiters more energy, assuming they would have been EMP-ed otherwise.
The ultimate ability of the Dark Archon, Mind Control, is difficult to use effectively because it is so energy-intensive, and one would need multiple Dark Archons and thus plenty of supply to Mind Control just a few units.
YET, Mind Control does not need to be used frequently. We can think of it in this hypothetical situation as a proxy Zealot Bomb or even a proto-Spawn Broodlings. Imagine Mind Controlling a Vulture near a nest of spider mines. One could effectively destroy an entire gang of Vultures, paving the way for Zealots. With enough Dark Archons, a Protoss player can cause Tanks to fire upon one another. Or even steal a few for himself after casting stasis on a smaller group.
What do you guys think? Am I forcing the Dark Archon where he dosen't belong? Or am I onto something here?
Maybe Mind Controling Sci Vessels is good if just to thin its ranks and have another detection against spider mines. Against Z Maesltrom is good and was gaining popularity at the twilight of the pro-scene.
Dark Archons are legitimately good units. The problem is they occupy the same building where psionic storm is researched, which is one of the strongest spells in the game and practically required in PvP and PvZ. It is also a pretty large investment to make a Dark Archon, upgrade maelstrom / mind control / energy, and then wait for the needed energy to be effective. In comparison to sinking money into High Templar with storm, or some archons - which can be immediately effective and prove super useful in PvZ and PvP, you will have troubles justifying the Dark Archon at any early-middle stage of the game.
Late game Dark Archons are great though when you find yourself in a split map situation with 4+ vespene geysers under your control. Feedback is so strong in PvP that it alone can justify using Dark Archons (Bonyth did this recently on his last streaming session. He nuked 3 high templars with a single Dark Archon before they got a psionic storm off). Feedback is great in PvZ as well, and Maelstrom is incredibly good against late game Zerg army compositions. Especially verse Guardians or Ultralisks, which tend to clump up. Even better, though, is using maelstrom on massive overlord drops which happen frequently at late stage PvZ.
As for mind control, it is a bit harder to justify it since how strong feedback / maelstrom are. In PvP you can make an argument for mind controlling a shuttle with two reavers in it... but the situation is so niche. In PvZ, there just seems to be no real case for mind control. I feel like it is the same case in PvT... there is just no real good use of mind control in that match-up. If you're in range to mind control something, you're in range of a Siege Tank shot, and that is no good. Maybe catching Science Vessels out and Mind Controlling could be a valid use of the skill though considering how expensive and important the units are for the Terran army. Mind Control is the same range as EMP but is instant. Feedback, however, outranges EMP. Basically, I have no idea what the fuck I'm saying.
Fb could be very useful vs T. Vultures dont trigger mines and MCed units will die too fast in a Terran ball to cause splash.
Ahh yeah, I forgot that Vultures can't trigger spider mines as they are hover-bikes. But if one were to MC a tank clustered next to other tanks, it could soften the adjacent units up a bit in addition to killing the other tank proto-broodling-style.
Maybe Mind Controling Sci Vessels is good if just to thin its ranks and have another detection against spider mines. Against Z Maesltrom is good and was gaining popularity at the twilight of the pro-scene.
I guess once one has control of Science Vessels, you could theoretically place defensive matrix on a Zealot/Shuttle and do some improved shuttle bombing. The biggest problem with Mind Control in general I think is it's cost. If you were to somehow rotate High Templar and Archons (force yourself to only use one at a time) maybe you'd make better use of storms and you'd be able to cast Mind Control somewhat regularly.
Mind Controlling Vessels wouldn't be a bad idea. Force terran to use scans, wait for terran to run out of scans. Murder his army. But Feedback has such a long reach, not worth possibly losing your DA for a sci vessal. Although DMatrix on an Archon is always good times.
I'll try incorporating them more in my games but it feels like HT are always a better investment.
It is also a pretty large investment to make a Dark Archon, upgrade maelstrom / mind control / energy, and then wait for the needed energy to be effective. In comparison to sinking money into High Templar with storm, or some archons - which can be immediately effective and prove super useful in PvZ and PvP, you will have troubles justifying the Dark Archon at any early-middle stage of the game.
This is going to actually sound crazy, but hear me out. What if you (theoretically) choose to be an absolute madman and make not one, but TWO Templar Archives? It would be an obvious extra sink in resources, but consider what it could do in PvZ. If you manage to find yourself in a situation where only a few Ultralisks are on a map (Unless the Zerg player decides to only attack you once they have many, many Ultralisks) you can try to Mind Control them one or two at a time. In addition, having the feedback/MC could (theoretically) help you kill or even SNAG a Defiler! Maelstrom, as you already mentioned, would just be a welcome addition. The problem is that for a period of time, you would probably be sacrificing extra units, which is dangerous.
Mind Controlling Vessels wouldn't be a bad idea. Force terran to use scans, wait for terran to run out of scans. Murder his army. But Feedback has such a long reach, not worth possibly losing your DA for a sci vessal. Although DMatrix on an Archon is always good times.
I guess when mind-controlling, you kind of have to wait for the science vessel to come to you. Like when 1 or 2 are sent out away from the main army and you KNOW they're about to send off an EMP. You can MC one (or both) of them and you can shield your de-shielded Dark Archon with Defensive Matrix (sine they loose shields after casting MC)
I think KT_Violet was quite close to bringing it into 'PvZ meta'. Based on what I've seen over the years and have theory crafted I can only ever see it becoming something regular in PvZ.
It's bulky and way vulnerable vs terran mech. Pro players rarely have vessels with 200/200, and for them to also be in range for feedback is even rarer. In your average PvT, at best you're getting to Feedback a Vessel and it will lose nearly all it's HP and all of it's energy while you will likely lose your DA for it. That's not worth the investment. Having an Arbiter instead of that DA is simply better. And the range on Mind Control is simply too low to ever use effectively. In 1a2a3a they just get in the way of your own units and therefore arguably give Terran even more time to shoot your stuff to smithereens... (If island maps ever going to be a thing, then we can talk about DA for PvT.)
I think instead the new meta game shift will be disruption web in PvT. They say it is better than Stasis Field in some situations when it is like 2base against 2base.
This is all, of course, extremely wishful thinking predicated on the idea that getting Dark Archons with the requisite upgrades will always pan out to be worth it. The fact of the matter is that this is not the case. It is a big money sink, spending resources that are better-spent on more consistent and reliable units/abilities. Getting DA up in time to use with Arbiter would delay said Arbiter, for example. Getting two Templar archives cuts down on your Archon/HT count in PvZ when it is crucial to make the best use of your gas, for what? Your choices amount to:
1. Feedback on a Defiler, which is pretty much a Western shoot-out; you have to hope that you target IT before it plagues/swarms YOU, and if you end up on the wrong end of that exchange, you will have blown your wad and still gotten the undesired effect. Not a safe bet to make.
2. Maelstrom on a clump on units, which is rarely worth it against a Zerg at this stage of the game because you are unlikely to Maelstrom anything exceptionally expensive for your Storm, or anything the Storm wouldn't have hit either way.
3. Mindcontrol an Ultra or Defiler I guess, which are both bad choices anyway and risk losing your DA almost instantly.
In almost any of these exchanges, your APM is better spent elsewhere.
That being said, as Faust mentioned, DA do already see usage in high level PvP/PvZ games, especially in ones that are drawn out, or when one player is ahead as a gimmick, or in unusual cases on old school maps.
Outside of all this, I think maybe the fact that your self-admitted lack of skill (HT for defending expansions in PvT? Vulture triggering mine[?] when you can just use Shuttle or Zealot run-by?) might be impeding your appreciation of just how refined progamers' play and builds are, and why they are this way. If it was as simple as building an extra Templar Archives or using a DA spell, it would have been done already. In fact, it probably has been done countless times in Korean practice houses a decade or more ago, and everyone considered it to be irrelevant.
Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ. What does Protoss want with exactly one Zerg unit? An Ultralisk would be nice, but Maelstrom is probably more of a swing than that in most situations. Defilers are borderline useless in Protoss hands: they can't consume anything (Consume only works on Zerg units, if I remember correctly), Dark Swarm likely is purely advantageous for Zerg at the stage Defilers are out, and while Plague is very strong against Zerg units, it's not that impressive when you have Psi Storm and Maelstrom at your disposal.
This is what koreans are saying about protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
On June 17 2017 13:46 RoKetha wrote: Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ.
What? Mind Control is the reason why it is impossible for zerg to win late game when there is no more expand and toss simply sit and wait for you to waste your units on his defence while picking them up one by one with MC.
Did u even used DA much in real games? It takes like ENTIRE AGES to wait for 150 energy of DA, then u can just MC 1 unit, thats why u see this speel mostly in troll games or EXTRA LONG games like pvp DA/Carrs vs DA/Carrs or some EXTRA LONG other mu's / situations, in standard game it takes to long to use it properly.
As previously mentioned, DA don't get used very much because it overlaps with the High Templar. Also, more or less, Feedback shares the same niche as Stasis Field does in the PvT matchup.
As far as PvZ and PvP goes, the gas is typically better used on other units until you have enough surplus time and gas to invest into DAs.
To the topic poster: Not to be a dick but this is all garbage Protoss needs to use the micro time/resources/ actual time to get templars and storm Terran units. Either that or 2 stargate arbs. Feedbacking a vessel or even worse mind controling one is just a huge waste of time related to resources based on other options you could do with that apm. Add up the total resources of two DTs and mind control because you can basically assume the DA will die(any top level terran will target it with a few vults killing it quick). There's a reason pro gamers don't do this. I'm sorry you are not smarter than them. It's just really bad. That's why you never see it from the best players in the world.
Not to mention what other people have said about the time it takes DAs to acquire energy. MAYBE feedback could possibly be useful, but what if the vessel gets the emp off on your DA first when you're not paying attention? Then youre even more fucked. It's the same reason ghosts arent used to lockdown arbs. It looks good in your head and on paper in a perfect world, but when it comes to actually pulling it off in the game while you're doing all the other things you're supposed to do. It's close to impossible or way too risky(the ghosts could be emped or sniped by vults or even tank targeting). So you never see it.
In PVP and PVZ DAs have their uses for sure. But it's still a late game split map type of unit. Not something to base your builds around. In PVT you are better off spending your time elsewhere. Broodwar is all about TIME. The most important resource.
In summary no sir, you are not onto something here but practice instead! You can learn so much just by playing games. You should embrace the beautiful world of Broodwar in all its complexity and realize you have so much to learn As I still do, despite playing it for 20 years. There is a lot of room for creativity especially at lower levels of play. It just takes a strong understanding of the basics to make it work properly. I think even the great Flash would say he still has things to learn about the game ( just much less than the rest of us mortals).
On June 17 2017 14:26 Shinokuki wrote: This is what koreans are saying about Protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the Terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
Yes look at him getting absolutely shitted on by shine
--See above spoiler regarding the most recent ASL-- Not exactly fair to Bisu(believe me I have a lot of respect for his skills), but a good example of the risks of harassment style protoss. There is always risk! But to the point of your post. You are giving too much credit to Zerg and not enough to Protoss. There are plenty of examples of Protoss doing amazing multitask and drop harassment vs Terran. Not just by Bisu. Also its very very uncommon to see a game where Zerg is using mass broodling. Or even queens at all. You are highlighting a rare event as the norm for Zerg and completely dismissing the rare events of Protoss. The problem for Protoss in harassment style is that it's a huge cost risk. If you get caught flat out or your drops do no damage you will lose the game period(given equal skill and assuming terran doesnt make a huge mistake). And if you succeed you will still have a turret setup/in base mines and constant reinforcements including tanks to get through in most cases(terran range is a huge advantage here).
It's hard as fuck to harass T as Protoss late game unless they make a mistake. Other than recall. And even that can go terribly terribly wrong.
He forgot to research recall in the video;) Just a little fun.
And in my opinion the reason Terran seems favored is because people like Flash and Last are playing Terran.
I have no doubt if Flash had been Zerg or Protoss, he would be amazing as well. To go a little deeper, why do great talents end up going Terran? I think a big part of it is the comstat. The better you are the more you get from additional information. And no race is better at getting additional information if comstat is used correctly than Terran. There's nothing the opponent can do to block it. Free scouting.
On June 17 2017 13:46 RoKetha wrote: Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ. What does Protoss want with exactly one Zerg unit? An Ultralisk would be nice, but Maelstrom is probably more of a swing than that in most situations. Defilers are borderline useless in Protoss hands: they can't consume anything (Consume only works on Zerg units, if I remember correctly), Dark Swarm likely is purely advantageous for Zerg at the stage Defilers are out, and while Plague is very strong against Zerg units, it's not that impressive when you have Psi Storm and Maelstrom at your disposal.
There's a very very oldschool progamer replay where I think maybe ForU(?) skips robo tech and goes DA Mind control and steals an upgraded zerg overlord and absolutely crushes. Just a fun fact mainly...not much point im making beyond that. This was maybe 14 years ago lol. This was on Lost Temple.
EPT
Protoss needs to use the micro time/resources/ actual time to get templars and storm Terran units. Either that or 2 stargate arbs. Feedbacking a vessel or even worse mind controling one is just a huge waste of time related to resources based on other options you could do with that apm. Add up the total resources of two DTs and mind control because you can basically assume the DA will die(any top level terran will target it with a few vults killing it quick). There's a reason pro gamers don't do this. I'm sorry you are not smarter than them. It's just really bad. That's why you never see it from the best players in the world. 
As I still do, despite playing it for 20 years. There is a lot of room for creativity especially at lower levels of play. It just takes a strong understanding of the basics to make it work properly. I think even the great Flash would say he still has things to learn about the game ( just much less than the rest of us mortals). 
