Now, I wouldn't call dark archons useless in PvT, but some people in this topic try to make it seem like it's a completely undervalued unit, and to that I have to say it's just not true. MC is not the spell you want to go for because it has a negative return of investment. You wait ages, then you use it once, and if you have multiple DA's then you have to somehow make sure they're not blocking your dragoons and zealots. This is not comparable to queens or defilers in ZvT because queens are fast and they're not in the way of ultras and lings, and defilers are nimble (although they're slower and have a shorter reach) and they can cast two dark swarms or one plague (either of which is far more powerful than one MC) and they can consume units to cast again, which also means they can be used instantly if managed correctly. Feedback is the only spell that really makes sense to use in PvT, and that is literally only useful against science vessels, which may not even be in the fight, or when they are it's usually just two or three. So a single DA would be enough to fight against science vessels. Now if you're arguing that this would be helpful then I'll agree. But if you're arguing that this would turn the tide then I'll disagree. It'd have a very, very minor effect on the protoss winrate, and although it shouldn't be neglected, it also shouldn't be compared to dark swarm and plague, which are actually essential to winning games. HT's have a far greater return of investment than DA's. That's why a single DA would work as a complementary unit, but not as a replacement for one or two HT's.
And to adress the corsair d-web theory: this is another case where other units - arbiters - are outperforming them. The return of investment for arbiters is higher because the AOE of stasis can't be avoided - if it lands, it sticks. D-web doesn't have that. Also, arbiters can be used alternatively for recall, and they have cloak, so they're also more versatile, creating two different threats and an inconvenience for terran. Speed and damage output of a corsair are not significant enough.
Feedback on vessel is not bad imo, the range of feedback and speed of casting being so much greater than that of EMP. It's situational because there are usually tanks nearby, but at the same time it may make the Terran want to leave their vessels behind a bit more giving you more chance for a nice stasis. I was using it a bunch not ineffectively.
It's also not bad against HT in PvP. Seriously if you'll just make one DA, it can disable 1 or 2 opponent HTs, worth it! Often you want to have them in front to storm, well not if there is one DA with 50+ energy.
In PvZ I think maelstrom is a good solid spell. Maelstrom is not even bad in pvp, especially if your opponent want to get away and you maelstrom zealots/Hts. Also can serve as detection against DT. -.-
Mindcontrol is really hard to make good use of and rather risky to try and set up, but sometimes yeah even against a strong P player I have gained advantage using a type of mindcontrol opening (designed against shuttle reaver but he went for quick archons I stole his archon and gained the advantage in the game with this action, also won games against decent/good Ps mindcontrolling a earlyish shuttle+reaver[s]). Ultras. Or catch a SCV at any point in a PvT and if you manage to start getting tanks, T will get scared, you become VERY strong then^^
It's fine to have some fun, no need to play the most effiencientest way all the time. . . the game lacking balance in some places barely allows straying from the few set paths as you reach for higher level, but you might learn other nice things and pull off stylish wins playing differently.
Why would anyone want to mind control a clumped tank rather than storm them? Same applies for clumped vults. Storm is better in every way. Faster, cheaper, more reliable.
Comparison:
Cost of high templar: 50 minerals, 150 gas, 75 energy, 2 PSI (starting energy 50)
Cost of Dark Archon: 250 minerals, 200 gas, 150 energy, 4 PSI (starting energy 50)
Differences in numbers are quite notable.
In PvT I would not waste my resources/apm for getting DA with mind control. TBH I would in almost every case keep my dark templars as dark templars rather than morphing a DA, even if mind control was a default skill for them.
The only legitimate use for DAs in PvT is feedbacking science vessels (potential 1 hit kill, long range, no upgrades or waiting for energy needed).
On June 17 2017 11:54 SCC-Faust wrote: Dark Archons are legitimately good units. The problem is they occupy the same building where psionic storm is researched, which is one of the strongest spells in the game and practically required in PvP and PvZ
I call this as a strength rather than a weakness. There are no extra gas for additional building+upgrade before storm anyways.
I think it's only really worth it if you're playing with DT's in the first place. As the game progresses, your DT's will have less and less value so you get a DA for "free" if you can keep your DTs alive. I don't think it's worth it to go out of your way to spend 250/200 just for a chance to feedback Science Vessels (with a bajillion tanks on the field, there's no guarantee you'll even get one spell off). So the gameplan should be around "how do I keep my DT's alive?" rather than "Let's get DA"
As for sharing research facility with Templar, I think that's fine. You get all your templar tech as normal. Then, if your DT's are still alive and you're able to morph that DA, THEN you can think about getting the DA upgrades late into the game
On June 17 2017 14:26 Shinokuki wrote: This is what koreans are saying about protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
As always, can you please cite some sources? Are these just regular netizens, just like you, who come on forums and defend their race, cry about how hard it is, and balance whine and call other races ezpz while talking other nonsense? If so, then those are not legitimate sources and you saying "This is what koreans are saying," for the umpteenth time gives you argument 0 weight whatsoever given the other ludicrous claims you've made.
On June 17 2017 14:26 Shinokuki wrote: This is what koreans are saying about protoss. It's those lazy people who started out with protoss because they just love doing 1a2a3a and making 200 psi units very easy so they don't try to do pesky things like what terrans/zergs do. Zergs literally have been evolving constantly to fight the terran late mech. Zergs with their insane mechanics pull off stuff like broodlinging 12 tanks at once while swarming everywhere in the map. Not to mention that defiler needs to constantly consume and are slow at moving. Couple that off with zerg also upgrading drops. Zerg literally uses EVERY arsenal. Protoss in the meanwhile could up their insane mechanics by using DARK archon or constant harrass with shuttle play. This is somewhat pesky thing to do and i know TOSS HATES DOING THIS. Even with shuttle play, toss can go far.. look at bisu with his constant sair usage and constant shuttle play.
As always, can you please cite some sources? Are these just regular netizens, just like you, who come on forums and defend their race, cry about how hard it is, and balance whine and call other races ezpz while talking other nonsense? If so, then those are not legitimate sources and you saying "This is what koreans are saying," for the umpteenth time gives you argument 0 weight whatsoever given the other ludicrous claims you've made.
Starting with Flash's 5 rax +1 into 3 vulture play or the new trend 3 rax 2 starport ( now he does not add in VALKS as he used to but 6-7 vessels) We have seen a different meta from terran Let's not even mention zerg.. I'm sure you know of that incredible evolution this past year
BU TOSS? LMAO while everyone amazed by zvt evolution we literally just goin ok pvt pvz..
feedback on vessels, templars and defilers is genuinely good, and DAs are frequently worth their investment in large scale battles where they allow you to feedback before the engagement. mind control is almost always garbage. (pvp vs mass carrier and stalemates with a lot of static d and no remaining resources are basically the two exceptions).
maelstrom is sometimes really great in pvz against an anticipated muta switch - if he has 36 hydra and 12 muta and you have 16 goons 10 zealot 4 templar, then one dark archon with maelstrom is, without a doubt, the best 300 gas investment you can make for your army. The problem is mostly the timing - you basically need to make the DA switch before the zerg actually makes the muta switch for you to have maelstrom by the time you need it to protect your templars. And while maelstrom is the best counter to mutalisks there is, corsairs have more utility except against mutas. (spending your apm maelstroming instead of storming when facing mass hydra is in my experience a good way to lose a fight you'd otherwise win.
I actually could see more frequent implementation of mael pvz and occasional lategame feedback in all matchups as part of a protoss strategical evolution. Pretty certain it's possible to consistently implement them in pvz - if nothing else, building them 40% of the time is gonna heavily discourage zergs from even trying to do a muta switch.
OP and other posters don't even realize that Mind Control is already a thing.
Dark Archons + Mind Control are standard in Korean PvZ lategame now just as Queens are (and have been for quite some time) in late game ZvT. You just don't see it much because the game usually ends before it gets to this point as PvZ can be quite volatile. I was intrigued myself as I watched the games live, and was never able to find a good VOD of it. Would definitely be awesome and also educational for people to see.
Watched several different games between BeSt and Larva, and even some other PvZ games go to late game and Dark Archons with Mind Control end up being the most cost effective unit (like a Queen using Spawn Broodlings) and produced en masse. Basically, energy units dominate ultra late game anything when the map is getting closed to mining out--energy isn't minerals, gas, or supply wasted, and regenerates. That's why it suddenly becomes good. Prime targets are Ultralisks, Lurkers, Guardians, and to acquire a few Defilers of your own. High Templars are produced as well for Maelstrom/Storm combo, and the Zerg player tries to produce Queens to pick them off with Spawn Broodlings.
I even believe this usage for Dark Archons is going to end up being more prominent than early Maelstrom on Mutalisks (which help against HT snipes) and mid-late game Maelstrom combined with your Archon/Reaver "deathball", or pretty much anything Feedback related. Although, those spells also become helpful when you get to this stage of the game.
Yes, this sounds super wild, but I guarantee you will be able to see it for yourself if any of the top Korean Protoss (like BeSt) gets into a long drawn out PvZ.
As far as PvT goes, I don't really know if Dark Archons will ever end up becoming a thing, or what their usage could entail. Only time will tell.
1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
On June 18 2017 02:59 TT1 wrote: 1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
On June 18 2017 02:59 TT1 wrote: 1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
idk man.. zergs literally broodling 12 tanks while moving in with ultras/lings with another spellcaster (swarm). They sometimes even drop.. I remember when Free was on a tear vs terrans when he started using templars. He would recall like 9 goons 5 zlot 3 hts into terran main and he wud keep storming the tanks in ramp. He would also keep storming and storming even though he knwos it takes a lot of hand. Protoss gotta just evolve like that from sheer mechanics. You can't just say nooooooo it too hard.
Queens are air units and terran doesnt have much anti air in lategame tvz (after they mech, they have some vessels and a few gols) thats why queens are efficient vs tanks. Also with queens you have to start broodling'ing tanks BEFORE the engagement starts. Typically you'll see a player get vision of T's tanks with an ovi or parasite and he'll mass broodling on 1 tank with ALL his queens, then he'll shift deselect 1 queen and re-broodling another tank with all his queens, shift deselect that queen/repeat the process.
On June 18 2017 02:59 TT1 wrote: 1 dark archon = 4 supply (weakens ur army) and theres no guarantee that you can efficiently get a feedback off when a fight happens.
When you engage in a big fight ur units tend to block each other so a lot of your stuff will straggle behind (making it hard to be in range of a vessel to feedback it before it emps your arbs). If you have your DA in front of your army it'll just evaporate vs tanks. Theoretically yes feedback is good vs vessels but it's extremely hard to get it off in a 200/200 fight (also terran will typically have more than 1 vessel, getting 1 feedback is already hard so getting multiple ones would be extremely difficult).
Best way to deal with terran armies is to split ur arbs and try to flank with as many as you can.
Also managing all those spellcasters isn't an easy thing to do, most of the time having too many spellcasters ends up hurting you more than help you. You need to drag mines with ur zealots (and try to split them as much as possible), you need to drop hts to storm the terran army and you need to split and micro your arbs.
What about 3 shuttle plays? drop like 5-6 hts.?
Well its good if you can execute it properly, Jangbi is one of the rare players who's very good at ht dropping/storming with several shuttles. Even a super gosu like Bisu wasn't HT dropping vs terran (with even 1 shuttle) in 200/200 fights until recently.
On June 17 2017 13:46 RoKetha wrote: Mind Control doesn't seem like it'd have much, if any use in PvZ. What does Protoss want with exactly one Zerg unit? An Ultralisk would be nice, but Maelstrom is probably more of a swing than that in most situations. Defilers are borderline useless in Protoss hands: they can't consume anything (Consume only works on Zerg units, if I remember correctly), Dark Swarm likely is purely advantageous for Zerg at the stage Defilers are out, and while Plague is very strong against Zerg units, it's not that impressive when you have Psi Storm and Maelstrom at your disposal.
There's a very very oldschool progamer replay where I think maybe ForU(?) skips robo tech and goes DA Mind control and steals an upgraded zerg overlord and absolutely crushes. Just a fun fact mainly...not much point im making beyond that. This was maybe 14 years ago lol. This was on Lost Temple.
Why an overlord? did it have units inside of it, or he just wanted to use it for drops?
overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'.
I think it might have some merit PvT, just 1 though, since feedback is instant long ass range it seems okay.
PvZ it definitely has its uses late game, ive watched a lot of streams of split map situations where I know zerg is gonna lose cause of mind control they stay in and well.. lose.
On June 18 2017 05:27 arb wrote: I think it might have some merit PvT, just 1 though, since feedback is instant long ass range it seems okay.
PvZ it definitely has its uses late game, ive watched a lot of streams of split map situations where I know zerg is gonna lose cause of mind control they stay in and well.. lose.
PvP like someone said maybe a niche for carriers?
PvP you can open w/ 2 dts and go into DA + mindcontrol (w/ mass goon support) if you can confirm that your opponent is doing a goon/reaver timing. You can mind control a shuttle w/ 2 reavs or worst case scenario 1 reav.
EPT
