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TwiggyWan
France334 Posts
And if terran wants to punish the base (assuming he finds it), protoss can either take the fight in the open or backstab the terran natural! I never understood the expanding pattern of protosses. Why don't they just do like zerg does and expand early in corners? It's not exactly hard to use goons/cannons to block a ramp, neither is it to park two observers near the edges of the terran base to spot dropships. | ||
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TwiggyWan
France334 Posts
On June 18 2017 18:39 endy wrote: The only underused spell by protoss players is hallucination imo. Feedback on Vessels doesn't really work, as at high level most EMP's will be pre-emptive after Terran scans the protoss army and Protoss doesn't know a vessel is coming. Also doesn't help against anti-recall EMPs. By the way hallucination has been used quite a lot during this year's tournaments to get an arbiter through terran turrets. I'm certain it has been done against mong on CB, and fairly sure it happened to other terrans. | ||
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Luddite
United States2315 Posts
I think maelstoming a stack of mutas could potentially be game-winning, but might also fail completely. Feedback against vessels seems like more trouble than it's worth.I guess mind controlling a worker is an option in a really long, slow game... might only work 1 in 100 games but it's the ultimate late game strategy- a 400/400 army. | ||
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saalih905
8 Posts
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
On June 19 2017 06:29 TwiggyWan wrote: By the way hallucination has been used quite a lot during this year's tournaments to get an arbiter through terran turrets. I'm certain it has been done against mong on CB, and fairly sure it happened to other terrans. Yeah but i was more thinking of hallucinated zealots as a first wave meatshield/to clear mines. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
i pretty much never use that spell :o should try smtg lawl at least just research it sometimes^^ I'm sure its great to send some fake arbiters out in front and lure vessels :o and known for allowing recalls that would have been interrupted by turrets or other fake zealots to clear mines why not eh^^ | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
Oh but then you throw in a couple DAs. pimpest play right there. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
DA has its usage already, i dont think it can be effective in normal pvt excluding battlecruisers or mined out situation. I remember playing 2v2. It was very long game, after crazy base trade, situation was both of our partners killed, almost no units and buildings left for each of us(all refugee style), i had only 1 undefended mining base on an island. Terran was about to fortify and set up a base at his last expo. As i was preparing all my units to attack, 2 dropships passed my army on a way to my island and i was about to lose my only nexus. I thought i dont want another base trade, so i decided to race against the dropships with the one fast shuttle i had. Loaded a goon and DA and charged after the dropships. I barely managed to catch up with the dropships just before they reach the drop point after the cliff and mind controlled the back one. Ive got 2 tanks, killed 4 goliaths from other dropship and saved my expo, it was gg. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On June 19 2017 06:27 TwiggyWan wrote: what i'd like to see is protoss players taking their 3rd at the terran 5th after a standard build, so they steal resources away from terran for the late game :p And if terran wants to punish the base (assuming he finds it), protoss can either take the fight in the open or backstab the terran natural! I never understood the expanding pattern of protosses. Why don't they just do like zerg does and expand early in corners? It's not exactly hard to use goons/cannons to block a ramp, neither is it to park two observers near the edges of the terran base to spot dropships. The more spread out you are, the more holes there are .. and good Terrans have a knack of punching through those holes with vultures. Vultures are so good at killing probes, that you really need a good amount of defense to deflect it. Keeping your bases close together allows you to minimize the amount of defense you need to deflect the harass, which is really important to maximize your economy. Plus, if you take your third at a standard timing, then you won't have the force to bust Terran for a while (unless he is doing something outrageously greedy). tldr: taking a faraway third against a good Terran will result in you taking a big economic hit either way, and fuck you over when he pushes out at whatever timing he chooses. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
stopped reading here ;D on a brighter note: don't start from the assumption that God made starcraft. All 3 races aren't equally strong in all situations. Humans developed starcraft, without actually knowing what they're doing. Perfect balance cannot be achieved, and the reason that 'not the same amount of spellcasters are being used for all races' isn't the silver bullet that everyone oversaw. | ||
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Spyfire242
United States715 Posts
But honestly the reason you don't see these units is because Starcraft is an economic game and they are expensive in both time and resources. They are not worth it unless you a) are already using a strategy that involves dark templar and b) can catch your opponent off guard and get value out of it, which is why often times when you see them its from a player who is behind. | ||
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Djabanete
United States2786 Posts
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Spyfire242
United States715 Posts
On June 20 2017 14:02 Djabanete wrote: Bisu used Mind Control against Nal_rA in the semifinals of the PvZ Revolution MSL in 2007. It was an island or semi island map and Nal_rA was using Carriers. Considering that Bisu was dethroning the best Protoss of the time on his way to becoming the new best Protoss, this seems like a legitimate usage in a top competitive setting. But we don't see island maps much these days. Hmm, interesting, never saw that game. I guess you can get some good value that way considering how expensive carriers are and how long it takes to train them +8 interceptors can offset the time and resources to go into MC. | ||
KwarK
United States43350 Posts
On June 18 2017 03:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: overlord for detection. This was during a time where zvp was basically 'zerg lurker contains protoss. either protoss breaks out and wins the game, or they don't, and lose'. I did that to Mondragon during the TSL2 ladder stage on Destination. Opened FE +1 speedlots skipping stargate, he went muta, I grabbed a darchon, maelstrom and some archons, he had 2 lurkers at his nat by then, I added MC and allined with an overlord steal. Was the sickest moment of my bw career. Alas I don't have the replay anymore. | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
On June 20 2017 14:57 KwarK wrote: I did that to Mondragon during the TSL2 ladder stage on Destination. Opened FE +1 speedlots skipping stargate, he went muta, I grabbed a darchon, maelstrom and some archons, he had 2 lurkers at his nat by then, I added MC and allined with an overlord steal. Was the sickest moment of my bw career. Alas I don't have the replay anymore. Ive seen korean progamers do the same thing, they get fast ove that is way harder to kill than obs and break out the lurker contain. | ||
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Jealous
10253 Posts
On June 20 2017 09:53 _Animus_ wrote: well judging from the mechanics of the game hallucinations shouldnt trigger mines as the are energy, no? I wonder if hallucinated zealots can be used with a shuttle for bombs, and if u make hallucination of a shuttle full of zealots will that shuttle be empty? DA has its usage already, i dont think it can be effective in normal pvt excluding battlecruisers or mined out situation. I remember playing 2v2. It was very long game, after crazy base trade, situation was both of our partners killed, almost no units and buildings left for each of us(all refugee style), i had only 1 undefended mining base on an island. Terran was about to fortify and set up a base at his last expo. As i was preparing all my units to attack, 2 dropships passed my army on a way to my island and i was about to lose my only nexus. I thought i dont want another base trade, so i decided to race against the dropships with the one fast shuttle i had. Loaded a goon and DA and charged after the dropships. I barely managed to catch up with the dropships just before they reach the drop point after the cliff and mind controlled the back one. Ive got 2 tanks, killed 4 goliaths from other dropship and saved my expo, it was gg. Hallucinations do trigger mines. The Hallu x Zealot suggestion can be seen in one of the earlier Pimpest Plays on Lost Temple. Hallucinated Shuttles can't carry units, even if the original Shuttle was. As Djabanete mentioned, Bisu did steal Carriers vs. Nal_rA, but it is an incredibly niche strategy/situation. Ultimately, it doesn't give any weight to the OP's theory that Protoss are struggling/not reaching their maximum potential because they aren't using DA. | ||
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noname_
461 Posts
 Sounds/might be hard to pull off in a real game though. I once saw a replay of a p player losing in a tvt, it was hilarious. | ||
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aedeph
104 Posts
On June 20 2017 13:22 Spyfire242 wrote: Ah you kids are so cute. Darkchons are pretty cool, I don't see any situation in PvT though where they would be more valuable than literally almost anything else for the investment. At least in PvP they can get some value feedbacking multiple templar or in PvZ the dream is maelstroming a stacked group of mutalisks. (Mind control is easily a top contender for the worst spell in the game, sorry to say cause its really cool but I don't see any competitive use out of this.) But honestly the reason you don't see these units is because Starcraft is an economic game and they are expensive in both time and resources. They are not worth it unless you a) are already using a strategy that involves dark templar and b) can catch your opponent off guard and get value out of it, which is why often times when you see them its from a player who is behind. Yes, you don't | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
1. Terran favour against Protoss is news to me. Pretty sure that's only Flash. 2. Science Vessels have a lot of health, so actually feedback is not that great vs them. Your investment in a Dark Archon to nullify a unit is about equal to Terran investment in a Science Vessel which both nullify your arbiter and have useful spells like d-matrix for other situations. Dark Archon is just less useful. But good news, Protoss have a unit that is flexible too: the arbiter  If your problem is your arbiter gets EMPed, having more arbiters is a better solution than trying to kill science vessels with feedback. Science Vessels already face peril against dragoons, compete for gas with tanks, so there's no really an overwhelming number of them.3. Anytime you think shouldn't zerg use queens more or shouldn't Terran use ghosts or protoss use dark archon... It's not that any of these units are bad. It's that they're situational, usually very late game units. Build orders are very tight and every bin of gas is counted. First 100 lair, second 100 speedling, save for spire, get speed hydra, attack up, speed lord, get second gas to afford hydra production. It's all very tight, so it's actually harder than you think to incorporate an extra 350/350 or whatever and not die to a timing. That's why we only see these units in epic late games. And if they're unutilized in the meta, they're very hard to think of in those late games when you're just playing the tug of war and thinking more about strategic positioning than innovative unit compositions. Bonus point: expensive to research, slow to build mana, fragile to keep alive, highly dependent on the opponent's unit comp... These are all big cons. Only in super late game can you kind of afford these tradeoffs, when games become kind of stalematey. Early on you just die to a timing, and the only value of these units is surprise if you're really got a special timing worked out that counters a strategy you are 90% sure will be used. That said, you should play with these units all you like in your own games. They are fun to use and at the low level, there is not really such a thing as timing, since most players are just winging it. | ||
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Spyfire242
United States715 Posts
Are you really trying to argue the viability of mind control by showing me a VoD where to me its pretty clear they are just messing around and he also loses in the end? Also I am not necessarily saying it cannot work in incredibly niche scenarios as someone else already pointed out, but the game is going on 2 decades old now, the potential of the DA has already been realized 10x over. I also think that it is a GOOD thing that these units exist where their use is very niche/barely ever used, it makes it that much more exciting when they are brought out in a professional match. In SC2 Blizzard would just buff it until it became over-used, lol... Edit: Paying a bit more attention at the end I noticed Mini actually won the stalemate with 2 buildings, which is pretty epic, but still doesn't change my argument. | ||
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